It was such a heart wrenching murder that he can't get a fair trial in that community.
In the interest of justice. I don't think the families want to wait. I don't think justice wants to wait.
This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KAT Studios and iHeartRadio, Season two, Episode eight, Change of Venue. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KAT Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Gabe Castillo. There have been more than a dozen pre trial hearings in the state of Idaho versus Brian Coberger.
The trial had an original start date of October twenty twenty three, but nearly a year later, many issues still remain to be decided, including determining if Laidakh County still has a viable jury pool.
New court filings reveal the defense thinks that quote a fair and impartial jury cannot be found in Laytak County. They add that enlarging the jury pool will not do anything to overcome that pervasive prejudicial publicity because Laytak County does not have a large enough population center to avoid the bias in the community.
Setting a trial date and battling over change of venue are inextricably intertwined. We spoke with many experts to understand the intricacies of the pretrial hearings. Stephanie as journalist Connor Powell what he thought about the change of venue request on the defense's part.
This is where the judge and defense prosecution are going to essentially battle over change of venue, which he wants to see it moved out of Moscow, Idaho, because their argument is that he can't get a fair trial there. It was such a dramatic and just really the heart wrenching murder that he can't get a fair trial in that community. And the judge might see it that way, they might not. That's sort of up for discussion. The other issue is where the trial should happen in when,
and it's a small town. Right where this murder took place and where the trial is likely to take place is a small community. There's a school right across the street from the courthouse. And one of the arguments for pushing this back, in delaying this is to do it during the summer so that the media onslaught that's going to happen with this trial doesn't impact the local community, particularly the students, the kids of that community.
And also in the university, So that seemed like a pretty smart plan. That was initially going to be this summer. We were thinking July August of twenty twenty four. Now that it's pushing so far, Look, I get it, he's going to have to have a trial on the moon to escape people knowing who he is. This is not only national news, it's become world news. And changing of the venue sort of seems like that might just be
a delay process and would really slow things down. Or if they changed the venue so that it's not one that's directly across the street from a high school, it sort of opens up the calendar potentially for them.
I spoke with Long Crimes True Crime reporter an Jeanette Levy, who spent a lot of time in Moscow, Idaho, over the past two years.
What you have to understand is in Moscow, that is a town of twenty five thousand, that's a college town. And when I was there, the wound that this crime created in that community, the pain, the grief really struck people and stunned them. When I went to businesses trying to talk to people about it, they felt like they were personally wounded by this. It just took such a toll that the influx of media and this is like a place that should be happy and I and you know,
this was a small community that took this personally. And you could tell that in speaking to people there. They were doing their best to go about life every day and running their businesses and getting their kids off to school. But this was a horror that unfolded in that town. And so it was a huge deal when an arrest was made, and people may or may not have formed really inflexible if you would opinions about that. You know, they may have decided this happened and somebody's got to
pay for it. I'm not saying that's exactly what happened, but it's possible. So I could see how moving it might probably just be the best thing to do. And I'm not talking a couple of towns over, I mean maybe a few counties over. Who knows where they would move it, but I know that An Taylor has suggested Ada County, which is Boise. It's a bigger population center, it has a more min courthouse Leyta County. It's a very small courthouse.
So so for clarity, you mentioned Anne Taylor, and to remind listeners, Miss Taylor is Brian Coberger's defense attorney, Anginae. Are you able to describe the courthouse and specifically its proximity to the school. I know that's been a major issue.
The courthouse is directly across the street from Moscow High School, directly across the street. I mean, you can't get any closer than that. And the courthouse is older, it's a small facility. It's connected to the sheriff's office. You know, the county's a county of forty thousand people. That's not very big, So you know, you've got the cute little downtown area, the courthouse kind of up the hill from there,
and the sheriff's office. In the courthouse, it's a building that kind of isn't an L shape, and then the high school is right across the street, so it's very quaint, it's very cute. It's a small town.
Ann Taylor has said that summer twenty twenty five maybe too soon. Then are we looking at summer twenty twenty six in order to not interfere with high school and college?
And they made it sound like, I mean, the prosecution thinks this is going to be a six week trial. She thought it would be much longer.
I think fifteen week was her projection if I remember correctly. So it's a pretty big disparity.
I would have to know more about what the prosecution's thought process is on their case. But six weeks for a case like this total, especially if you even get to the mitigation phase, Wow, that's ambitious. Obviously the defense is going to fight. It sounds like they're going to put up a fight. They're going to be calling experts. I'm sure they'll do their best to cross examine witnesses and do their best to discredit thing, you know, witnesses
through cross examination. But who knows what they have planned. She's arguing for a change of venue, and you can't tell me that somebody like me. I'm pouring over this stuff every time something is filed because that's my job and I'm interested in it and I need to be
able to convey stuff accurately to the public. But I don't think maybe your average juror is sitting there monitoring the Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest website waiting to look at this, and if they move the trial, you know, she's got a jury expert that's going to come in and say that, leta county's biased and they can't have the trial there. Well, if you're going to move it somewhere, then you're going to have a bigger jury pool, potentially
a larger pool of people from which to choose. And the longer this gets drawn out, the more memories will fade.
But even the change of venue, I mean, that's obviously Defense Attorney Taylor is trying really hard to get that changed. But what even is the difference of moving a couple of towns over in terms of people knowing or not knowing about this case that is in the news all the time.
Normal people are busy. Cell phones have changed everything, of course, but they're not always on their phones looking at every little development in a case.
Data Analyst's Body move In is a super sleuth who you may know from Netflix is Don't Have with Cats. She has some additional thoughts on the merit of a potential change of venue.
I do think that they're going to move it, though, I really do, and I think it just makes sense more logistically than anything else. The tiny, itty bitty little town. You know, the media is going to be all over this. People are going to be traveling to try to attend this trial. Logistically, I don't know that the city or town of Moscow can handle all the people. And we've been Courtney, we follow trials and this is what we do, right. I just don't think in the interest of justice, I
don't think the families want to wait. I don't think justice wants to wait. I do think it should move it not necessarily because the jury pool, just for logistical regions. It's just I just don't think it's going to be a good thing.
What you just said is common sense, But it somehow had not occurred to.
Me another year for all those families to wait right to find out what happened to their children and limbo. Especially in capital cases, there's so many pre hearing motions and things that have to be done. And while preparing the defense and preparing the you know, the prosecution. I mean, I think media has taken a unique turn, especially with
true crime reporting. Right you have people who are independent I'm using quotes independent journalists right now, who are you know, their living is on YouTube and social media and they were you know, they make little press passes for themselves and whatnot, and they harass people to get information, and I just can't imagine this trial happening while kids are at school on recess playing so in the field that's facing the court and possibly being on a YouTube channel. Do you know what I mean?
I would go crazy, and I think you're right that parents would go crazy.
Of course, we all want justice, I mean, everybody wants justice. But imagine living in that town and you have a thirteen year old child who has to go to school and wade through all the reporters to get there. I'm not saying that would happen, but it could, and I don't think the community of Moscow would like that.
Now.
I do think that the people of Moscow do want justice served by them by their community because this happened in their community and they want to be the ones to see it through.
Right.
I think they're good, hardworking Americans that believe in the system and want to see things through. I absolutely believe that. I just don't know if they're going to be able to be able to get that done in time for school to be at a session, and that includes the university too, because the town is full. It's while the kids are in school. I think it's going to have to move. Justice moves so slowly. I just don't believe they're going to be ready in time. I just don't.
I am not a victim's family or you know, part of the community of Moscow, so it's easy for me to say the judges should just move it and get it over with and move on and get to the issues at hand.
Let's stop here for a break. We'll lead back in a moment to get a better understanding of the judicial practices that come into play with potential change of venue. I spoke with kirk Nermi, knowing that Coberger's defense attorney Ann Taylor wants to change of venue. I asked, if the judge alone makes the final decision.
Well, ultimately, there's just kind of a default assessment that the jurisdiction of the court of a particular county. I believe that in this case is Letagh County is that is the court that assesses and judge and tries all crimes that are committed in that county. So that is the general presumption, if you will, A defense can look to change venue if they feel as if to another jurisdiction,
another county, district, what have you. However, the state is set up within the boundaries of that state, and what they have to do in order to motivate that to happen is they have to assert facts to substantiate the idea that their client cannot get a fair trial in the county or district or what have you, in the court that they are presently in front of.
I'm not asking you for statistics, but I guess how rare is it to have the trial changed out of the county in which the crime was committed.
Well, I'm glad you didn't ask for statistics because I couldn't give you any, but I will say it's rare, but much more common in a high profile case, because when a case gets so much attention in an area, and we're really talking about media assassination, be that traditional media or social media, and how many people have prejudged the case in a particular area. For example, small counties have a smaller population of a jury pool to draw from.
Maybe there's a higher percentage of people in that county that already know about the case, that sort of thing. So that becomes the defensive job to demonstrate that bias that would violate the sixth Amendment, and it becomes incumbent on the judge to make the decision. The prosecutor in some cases might relent. They might say, yeah, this is not going to be a county where you can get a fair trial, but ultimately that decision lies with the judge.
After speaking with Kirk, I got curious if there were any statistics on change of venue and found a survey out by the University of San Diego. The survey analyzed murder trials from twenty to twenty twenty across all fifty states. There were many mitigating factors, but the success rate of change of venue was just twenty three point five percent. Here Stephen Greenberg, attorney and former prosecutor, elaborates on the potential outcomes for the change of venue in this case.
The norm is they're not going to get a change your venue, and you can always get a jury. By the way, people sometimes they like because they want to sit on the jury. You know, we had a case involving a very important political figure, all headlines. Did you ever read anything about it? No, did you see anything on TV? And of course they did it. But you can always get a jury. And if I were the judge, I would do everything in my power to keep it
from happening. Any judge worth is a ressault when want it happened. Worst case, they'll bring in jurors from another area. They can always be that, Oh I didn't know that. And by the way, it's not unheard of to go to a different venue and bring in a jury pool from the neighboring area. You know, it's always subtle. They just do subtle things. There's little things that happen during
a trial that can be very harmful or helpful. This judge is not going to be helpful to a defense, not at all, and he's going to keep the case.
I understand how unlikely you think it is for it to move. But if a trial moves, does the judge move with it? Is that possible or no?
Yes, any one of a number of things could happen. First, the whole thing could be denied because they have enough to get another pools. The other thing they can do is the judge stays where the judge is and they bring in jurors from a different place, which is what I indicated earlier. The other thing is for the judge himself for herself to move to a different venue and pick a jury there. Any one of those three or possible.
Inside additions, Chris Spargoes shared his thoughts on security and monetary issues involved with the trial's ultimate location. So you talked about people in the area kind of feeling frustration about how long this trial will be. Do you know any other details about that or can you speak to that.
I heard there are concerns, which makes sense. I mean, obviously that's another Again, that's another cost to if kids are in school when that trial's going on, that's another level of security you're gonna have to get to make sure, you know, there's no sort of overlap. And I think that's not something they really want to expose the kids too, you know, sort of it's a very very very grim trial, even the details. So I don't think, you know, you want kids knowing about that, And I mean, I think
there's a general media attention. No one wants your tild to be around the sort of media attention that's going on with this trial. Like I can't imagine being a parent knowing that, you know, eighty news trucks are outside my kid's school while they're you know, that's just not a way for a kid to live. And that's not
something you want for your child. So I think that's sort of an understandable thing and they want to push it, but again, push it or not, that's probably gonna be another huge security.
Costs for them. Have you been to the courthouse.
I'm not. My colleague has been to the courthouse. I am not much of the travelers. Nothing grand, and it's it's which is kind of wild when you think about it, because of the size of the trial. It also makes it a big problem though, because of the amount of power the media companies using and everything. I mean, it's it's really a dream, you know, this this little courthouse being surrounded by all these bands and all the supporters
and everything. It's it's kind of chaotic when when it's these hearing and these are hearings are not even major hearings right now, so to speak, you know, compared when the actual trial starts. And even then, I mean, my colleague said it was wild. How you barely get in there's a million people around. It's really chaos.
Do you have an opinion on if the trial either should move and or if the judge will decide to move it.
I wish the trial would move for the sake of the residents. I think that they've done enough. I think they bared the burden of and I just just get it out of there for those poor people. Like I mean, I don't care. I don't think really care about the jury so much. I you know, I know that's not really the legal president or know how they decided, but it just it would just be nice if it wasn't there for them, Like I just feel so nice for them, if people just got you know, outlandd As somewhere else.
I like I said before the I don't think you could put that jury anywhere in the United States, you know, and get a truly impartial jury who doesn't know anything about Brian cop I'd be nice to have moved to another county, just for like I said, just for the people that live in Moscow. That'd be great. But I think it's going to be hard for the defense to prove that any neighboring county is any more or less impacted by what's been covered in the media. Let they know about it them than Latin.
As of the date of this recording June twenty seventh, twenty twenty four, a decision on change of venue has not been decided. There was a pretrial hearing today where it was speculated the decision may come down, but that is not the case. Here's Stephanie as the debate over the venue takes place. We found it interesting that Coburger is housed literally below the courthouse in the basement. That's where the county jail is, and he's been there since
January fourth, twenty twenty three. The jail itself is about two thousand square feet and houses approximately seventeen inmates at any time. So for comparison, according to US Census data, the average newly built house in the US measures approximately twenty three hundred square feet, so the average new built house is actually bigger than where Coburger and his fellow inmates are being housed at this time. News Nation did a really good job breaking down a little bit of
his life behind bars. We know that there are about three guards working at any one time, and when Coburger goes out for exercise for one hour a day, he's always with guards. There's been a lot made about him receiving special treatment, specifically the fact that he has vegan meals or new suits and a computer in his own television. According to reports, his meals are primarily rice and beans and vegetables. He has a computer, or at least access
to one, just like any other inmate. He can use a thumb drive to look at documents related to his case, make notes, and then get those back to his attorney. That's pretty status quo.
As for him having his own television, that's because he's not in the general population, and it's been noted that the TV is actually outside of his cell, so he can watch it between the bars and to other inmates who can sometimes hear what he's listening to or watching. He's apparently very interested in the coverage of his own case. Something else interesting about his routine is that he apparently
attends mass at the jail library. That's the only time he's actually allowed to be with fellow inmates, and he speaks to a priest. In a Daily Mail exclusive, pastor Mike Hall, who heads at the special group that sends ministers into jails, is quoted as saying, we don't tell folks that we will relieve them of their responsibility of their crimes end quote. But he does speak to somebody
one on one occasionally. Outlets have reported that he's been a model prisoner, even though he sometimes gets taunted by other inmates while he's walking by. And one other curious thing, Brian Coberger is apparently getting a lot of attention from women. There are apparently cohorts of women who are reaching out to him because they have romantic interest in him.
Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in a moment. Following is a quick conversation that happened between Stephanie, journalist Connor Powell and Body Moven. This short chat sent us pretty far down the path on this topic.
One of the topics that came up was this idea of people who fall in love or have obsessions with criminals who are in prison who have been particularly the ones who have been accused of murder. And there was the phrase that was thrown out was hybristophelia, which is this idea of sexual attraction in response to somebody who's committed a heinous crime.
It just really makes you wonder the why, right. This seems to me like there has to be some sort of unhealed trauma to never want your partner to come home at night, is you know, kind of a tell about something probably larger.
I was amazed as I was doing some digging today a body that there are multiple social media sites dedicated to the fascination and with people professing their love of Brian Coburger. Is that something you've come across before in criminal data research you've done before?
Yes, I have extensive knowledge on this disorder?
Is that extensive personal knowledge or just extensive knowledge?
Personal?
Okay, personal knowledge? So, as you all know, I was in that Netflix documentary Donnov with Katz and the subject was a murder that happened. You know, Luca Magnata was the murderer, and I was in the documentary talking about it and how he was caught and I was after him, and you know all this right well after the documentary aired, literally the first one hundred and fifty emails I got were all from the same person telling me what a
scumbag I was because they're in love with Luca. And to this day, you know, this documentary aired in twenty nineteen, the end of twenty nineteen, so it's been four years. Right to this day, I still get hate mail from people who are obsessed with Luca Mgnata and how dare I? And it's it's absolutely wild.
It gives me the creeps.
Is that because they don't think that he did it, and that they just feel like he's been wrongfully accused and he's just cute man behind bars.
It's a mix. It's a mix of people that are trying to be like edge lords. There's many reasons people have this disorder, right, It's there's low self esteem issues. People believe they can change him. Others just see it like a little boy that the killer once was and he wasn't protected and he needs to be nurtured. There's many different reasons. Not many people think he's innocent.
I was gonna say part of the arousal, right, part of the attraction is that he did do it, right, Like that's right kind of what they get off on.
Yeah, it's part of it is this is a really dangerous person and if I can get them to love me, I'm one of the people he would never hurt or you know, I'm protected. There's many different reasons that people have this, and I think that you know, the people that have this disorder think that, oh well, if I love him, he's not going to be a danger. But there's like a whole subreddit dedicated to the love.
Yeah, there's sort of two groups on social media of people who are defending Coburger, saying he didn't do it right. And then there's this other little subgroup that you see, which is like they sort of acknowledge, or maybe they don't fully acknowledge, but they are turned on by what he did. And you're right, it goes into that he would never do it to me, and I can change him.
Yeah. I mean the people who think he's innocent are not in this group of they call themselves bribrise. They're not in this group of bribebries. They like photoshop his images and the pictures they have literal alters with his mug shots and you know, with the turtle suit on. They make like fan cams on Twitter of him like entering court and it's like in slow motion with like music playing, and a lot of it too. I think is the edge lord mentality. Right, I'm gonna piss off
everyone I know because I am patrol. You know, a lot of it is trolling. They want a reaction, they want the attention, they want people to be absolutely outraged by their behavior. It's an internetroal, but they do exist, and it is an actual disorder. There's many papers written on it. I had to go study this because I was getting a lot of like threats, you know, literal threats against my own life. But if you look at history, look at how many women were fascinated with Ted Bundy
and even to this day still are. And the bride Rice Compare Brian Coberger to Ted Bundy, It's absolutely wild.
More on that next time. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at KT Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leideger, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Toois, Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker is a production of KT's Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.