A Pike County Roundtable

long and a number of defense pre trial motions. It was the first full hearing to take place in George's younger brother, Jake Wagner, played guilty to killing five of the eight slain members of the Roden family in April twenty sixteen, and it was Jake's plea and what he potentially told authorities that became the defense's primary focus during

these proceedings. I think we need more than sixty days to investigate whatever we learned Jake's profit because we have not been provided at even though it's been available for two longs, we have not received that we are entitled to that under Criminal Rule sixteen. And once we get it, and I understand it's more than ten hours of recording statements.

So once we get that, we need an adequate amount of time to investigate whatever we need to investigate, and will certainly comply with our discovery obligations the state degree to work towards providing George Wagner's attorneys with Jake's confession. The court also scheduled George's next motion hearing to take place on September thirteenth, But before court was dismissed, Judge Randy Deering provided one critical piece of information for George

moving forward. We have said a trial date in this case for four with accused brother George Wagner said to begin trial on April fourth, twenty twenty two. There will surely be a lot to cover moving forward. But just a few days before George Wagner's most recent hearing, we got some of our regular contributors together for discussion. Reporters Angeinette Levy and Jodi Barr, and criminal forensic expert Joseph Morgan. We covered a range of topics that spanned their years

covering the road and murder case. We started out with a talk about some of the details they had heard leading up to George Wagner's tile last week and what they expected the outcome to be a Jeanette Leavey started us off some documents filed by George the Fourth's lawyers, saying they still haven't received Jake's statements to law enforcement, and they were led to believe that Jake's interviews were between ten and eighteen hours, So they subpoenaed Greg Myers,

who is the lead counsel for Jake, and they filed emotion demanding that the additional discovery, including Jake's interviews, be turned over. So we don't know the veracity of his statements or how truthful they are, other than he allegedly led them to the vehicle used and the weapons used. So I mean he did quite a bit of talking. Jody. How rare is it for one attorney to subpoena another attorney.

I don't recall a specific instance of that, but I mean that is a clear indication that one side is not feel that they are getting the information they need to defend their clients. So I think it's worth a deeper look at you know, why either the state or Jake's own attorneys are not playing ball here. That's been to complaint the entire time that defense attorneys have complained consistently that they're not getting material as quickly as they would like, and you would think they would just make

a copy and send it over. Yeah, I mean, and in this one, I would venture a guess that it was at least audio recorded, perhaps if not video recorded, this statement that Jake gave. So, I mean, you know they need to produce this. I don't know how you know these three defense teams can adequately prepare for trial when there's this huge evidence dump from Jake Wagner's mouth that apparently they don't have access to. Right now, you've

got one of the four saying I did it. I did it, and you know what did he do exactly? We didn't hear it in court. You know, maybe he told that story in the statements, but ten to eighteen hours it's a heck of a long time to have a conversation cover a lot of ground in that time. So I had a quote normal pre trial, what happens?

What's the broad strokes? They usually ask the defendant if they're happy with their lawyer, and they're meeting with their lawyer enough, and they discussed the pace of discovery and what have you. But I feel like in this case, nothing ever happens. I mean they go into chambers for an hour and then they come out and put something on the record. Because these are death penalty cases. Now they're really not death penalty cases because they've taken that

off the table. If Jake testifies against everyone, they typically are pretty uneventful. We've had some sparks fly in some of the motions hearings, but I haven't. You know, these pre trials tend to be pretty dry. Yeah, I thought that too until what was at April the twenty first of this year, the night before Jake Wagner played guilty. I was told by some family members that BCI reached out and said, you want to be at the courthouse

tomorrow in Pike County. And then that was just docketed as a pre trial hearing and there was no indication that Jake Wagner would be pleading guilty other than the state calling the family and suggesting they'd be there. So that actually turned into the end of his prosecution. So, man, I think if you get a call from the family any one of these pre trials, it just seemed like a routine. You know, where are we in this prosecution? And does everybody have what they need so we can

try this thing. Man, I think you got to be careful in this case. You don't know what may come next. I mean, Jake, was I think a complete surprise to everybody, even the family. What were your thoughts on that day, Joseph, None of us were expecting this. Do you remember we were all texting between one another saying what the hell is going on? Because this seemed dropped like thunder out of the heavens and we never saw it coming. I didn't certainly, I had no idea that this was about

to happen. So you could knock me over with a feather that day. There is a distinct possibility that he could come in and plead. I don't think he's going to plead guilty. If if he was going to plead guilty, I don't think his lawyer would be like filing a demand for discovery in a trial date. So just my opinion. But what do I know, Probably get out there and something crazy. I'll have it's the pike to a massacre. Who knows. You never know where this is going next.

Covering this story, who did you guys first think did it? I thought it could have been related to the pot, you know, the marijuana growing operation. But I had been told early on by some law enforcement sources, federal law enforcement sources, that the cartel thing wasn't true because they ran that down because of the level of violence that was involved in it, and it didn't seem like messaging

so much to me. As you would see with an organized crime hit, there's generally something that will be left that is substantial, you know, the elements that we've talked about quite a bit relative to overkill in cases I've seen and then you displayed before us. It seemed very intimate to me, very very intimate, and cartels loved their money,

but they're not intimate. Also with intimacy comes that level of familiarity and the fact that in this tight little space, you know, and it is a tight little space when you travel down that road, you have these locations where all these people inhabited these very specific pinpoint locations, and there's other structures and other families around that area. They knew where there were going. There were no mistakes. Many times, if somebody's not familiar with an area and they're going

to go out and kill somebody, you'll have mistakes. Along the way, but they had pinpointed four separate locations, and that again goes back. I think there's connectivity with that seed of intimacy. The whole thing about the dog's not barking, because they said those dogs would have. That was just very strange. We knew there was a baby, We knew there was a child, you know, we knew about the

little girl, and we knew about the Wagoners. But I didn't hear the Wagoner name and any association with the murders or suspected association until May of twenty seventeen. And then Jody was at your experience as well. I got over there heavily in June July, right after the murders, and I mean people you talk with, even the family members had already and I don't know what the reasons, but it had already suspected something to do with the Wagoners.

I mean they had already floated, you know, the Wagner farm out as being the base of operations for this family. There was also a drug case in Adams County, which is just right next door to Pike, that the rumor Mill believed could have been linked, you know, to the Wagoners. The Wagner farm or at least you know what happened over as far as the drug angle that ended up not being connected in the end, or as far as

we know it's not connected. But you know, we went as far as you know, covering a court hearing over there for someone who had a substantial amount of drugs on them. So anyway, there was a lot swirling around. But the Wagner name. We heard that early on that some people suspected that they were somehow involved. But you know, back then, it's it's like, how do you even where do you start on something like that? I went out

past that, you know, the Flying w farm. You try to dig in the property records and background these people, and first off, there wasn't a lot to background with these folks. And secondly, it's just you know, what you did find didn't scream mass murderers. I didn't see anything there that would cause me to continue digging. It was nothing that I found, at least in looking into the Wagner family that I went okay there to smoking gun.

The rumors are true. It's just you collected it as information, You try to vet it, you get nowhere, and you just move on and then Andrewette, Yeah, I'm curious your perspective. I'm starting to develop an idea of them. I started looking into them, and you know, when you see that Jake and George and the house and the mom lived there with them, I was kind of like, oh, that's weird. And then I remember being out there and hearing a little bit about, you know, how they lived, and learning

more about George's wife now ex wife. It all started to kind of sound very interesting. So I remember specifically going up to the Flying w and you go up there and it's like this steep I would say, it's like a sixty or seventy degree kind of like driveway gravel driveway, and driving up there and being basically told to get off the property, you know, just seeing if they wanted to comment. So it was a little cre be,

a little scary. I mean, it's a beautiful property, don't get me wrong, But when your cell phone doesn't work and you're driving up somewhere to go try to talk to somebody, and somebody you know, basically comes out and tells you to get out of there, I felt a little weird. You know. Obviously it wasn't very welcoming. I started digging around on Facebook quite a bit too, and it didn't seem like on the surface that you would

suspect anything. You know, the mom Angela was running some type of little organic farm type thing at that Peterson Road house. You know, she was trying to breed animals and sell them, and she had pictures of the children on there on Facebook. So, you know, at first it didn't seem weird. But then I contacted her and said, look, you know, I'd love to do an interview with you.

And then some of the things Angela Wagner said to me on Facebook Messenger kind of made me feel a little uncomfortable, the way she was trying to dictate what I said, what I would be reporting about our conversations on Facebook messenger. She said, you know you are not to report any of this what I said. You know, I do not give you permit. Shouldn't report anything I just told you. She said that she was being slander she and her family. Do you think Jake is lying

about being personally responsible for five of the eight? I don't know what his incentive to lie about that is. I mean, is he that afraid of the death penalty? The economics of that equation just does not make sense to me where he would openly confess to murdering five people. Probably the worst act you could commit as a human is taking the life of another, and he did that

five times over. I think we got a good idea of what happened here, and Jake Wagner told his story in court, and he took the guilty plea and said he did it, you know, five of the eight. You know. I think that's the best shot we've had so far at some confirmation of really peeling this story back. I think the world wants to know what happened when they woke up that morning, put this plan in place, Who

went where, who did what? As I think all of us have done since April twenty sixteen when this happened, as you roll around these scenarios in your mind, trying to figure out, first off, what's the mindset of someone to pull this off and then to just run free for what two years afterward and you live with this every day of your life. It may have been passion driven, and it was certainly anger driven, but it wasn't like somebody just suddenly flew off the handle and decided to

go and visit hell down upon the roads. This is something that took planning, in my estimation at least, So you begin thinking this confederacy. What do you think about when you're moving from someplace like the last house that you hit with multiple people in it, and then you drive out to Kenneth's house at some distance away. Now, what does that conversation consist of? You talk about what music you're gonna listen to on the radio and talk about who's going to handle what. I don't know who

pulled the trigger. Jake said he killed five of them. But I can't imagine, to Jody's point, why in the world that man would say that he killed five people in an open court and he didn't do it. So that leaves us with the other three who would do this and do it in the presence of these babes and just leave them. And I can only imagine having wallowed around about in that blood. I don't know. It

leaves me dumbfounded, and that's hard to do. Hannah Gilly, she was attacked on the only second to Chris Roden. She was shot this woman five times in the face, which is an unbelievable overkill. So the thought is a why and then also is it possible it would be a connection or rage because her brother, Charlie Gilly is the father of Hannah Roden's new baby. That would be my suspicion, But I really don't know for sure. I mean, I would just be speculating because of that connection. There's

a whole lot more going on. And you know, Hannah Gilly shot five times in the face. It's you know, you look at the angle, Well, is that a message being sent? One shot is a message? You know? Five? I don't know what you're doing at that point. Jay Wagner at least set out with a plan that night to do what he did to five of the eight. You know, he killed the other three. You know, I just I just hope we all, you know, get these answers.

Now that springs us to another point. I'm going to reflect back to an old, old case real quick that many people will be aware of and absolutely horrendous. And it's Dennis Rader with the BTK killing now in Kansas. He stood up and he said, I will, in fact admit to everything I've done since I don't know, nineteen seventy three or seventy four. Whinner it was he started this horrific murder scree, his serial killings. They put this

one caveat in there. They said, okay, that's fine, we'll take death off the table, and you have to stand in court and you have to stand and deliver. At this moment, Tom and he was compelled to what is framed as an elocution. He had to stand there, and it's one of the most chilling things you've ever seen, because this guy's a psychopath. And so when you listen to him give the details behind these horrific crimes he participated in, it really makes you wonder if you want

this thing that people talk about. The frame is closure because it's a horror show. But in this particular case, if this is the route you're going to go, I think that these individuals should be compelled to allocute. Let's think about these babies that are left behind, these children. Don't you think they're going to one an explanation at some point in time? I mean, yeah, I know the

community does, but what about these kids. Let's just assume that they do get convictions on all fronts here, what do you do? You push them off into a deep dark hole and they're never to be heard from again,

and we'll never hear anything else about this. And people keep talking about, well, we'll never hear the true story because the deal was cut and they weren't compelled the perpetrators, if it is them and they are so convicted, they were never compelled to say, Okay, this is what happened, this is how the planning took place, and this is what we did that night, And those questions will always exist.

And on a broader note, you're always going to have, you know, people sitting in their basement with ten foil hats on saying well, it wasn't them. You know, they'll be crazy conspiracy theories that will be created for years and years to come. But what actually happened that ninment. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. What's your theory on who the

mastermind is? I don't want to indict anybody, obviously, but we have Jake Wagner confessing and implicating all of his family members in this, at least Billy Angela and his older brother, George, the fourth Angela. If if you really kind of watched these hearings very closely, she was apparently on jail calls. She was calling her mother against the judge's orders and telling Rita Newcome, you don't have to

testify against us. People who are completely innocent, they don't call their mothers and say you don't have to testify against us. And her mother came out in court and said she asked me to lie about notarizing the documents, the custody documents, the forged custody documents that have been discussed in this case. It was stated they were declaration documents, and it was stated in Rita Newcome's case because she was the one accused of charged with forgery or obstruction.

It said that it was declarations for the children of Hannah Rodin, George the Fourth and Jake And so basically these documents designated a guardian should any of them die. And these documents had been signed and notarized nineteen days before the murders, and it designated the children go to

Angela should any of them die. That's just one of those puzzle pieces that I felt like showed that Angela she may have been the driving force here since she was the one that had the Facebook message that's been referenced in court. That showed that Hannah said they'd have to kill me first before I gave up my child, and she showed that message to Jake. Angie Kaneppa said that in court when Jake pleaded guilty, the next thing

I wanted to talk about was Alaska. When they all up and moved to your point together sold all of their stuff. I went, whoo, this doesn't look good on paper. It looks like what you would suspect someone involved in a crime like this would do is to, you know, go to the other side of the world. So, I mean, that was just my initial impression of it. But to end up picking everything you own up and throwing in a multiple trailers and moving man to Alaska, that's not like,

you know, moving just out of state. That's that's a long way to go, and then to come right back. I would love to know more about the reasons behind that. You know, did they feel the heat at that point in time? Were they really trying to get away? I think what I'm so interested in is Jake's wife, who we don't know all that much about. But obviously he goes to Alaska, meets a woman and then ends up

marrying her. This other woman, I mean, what were those conversations like I mean, I would love to be able to sit down and talk with her now about you know, she watched that video feed of Jake pleading guilty to these murders. I mean, if you hid that from her too, you know, it's like a whole other level, another layer on this sadistic, twisted person that he turned out to be. Well.

Elizabeth then came back to Pike County with the family, and then she went to the police claiming threats, harassment, and potential identity them right, It's been very frustrating because that case is now years old and they won't release any more records about it or any more of the report than just the first page, which basically says a name and you know, a complaint lodged. It doesn't say anything else. I talked to a lawyer about it a while back who did not think it would be successful

to pursue obtaining that. It's still listed as an open case even though it's been many years. This is, of course all speculation on my part. But because Jake's wife, Elizabeth filed those harassment charges because she was living with Jake Anna's family in Alaska, came back to piked in. It seems like a possibility she could be the informant. Who do you think the informant or informants are I

think Jake Wagner's wife. We have efforted to find her so many times, so many ways, and a roadblock after roadblock, we just we haven't been able to speak with her. Well, I've kind of suspected for a while now that it was it was her. And then what I thought was interesting, and this was said in court, someone or more than one person refers to the informant as she right, Ryan Scheider, I think said she during his testimony last August. So that that is what was the final thing to lead

me to believe it was her. But it could be could be wrong, I don't know, could be a curveball out of nowhere. Though. What if it's, you know, one of the grandmothers. I know that's hard to believe. I don't know how impossible it is about the grandmother's a. Obviously they're also tight knit, and I do think it's interesting. Frederica has not said one word to my knowledge publicly

since Jake has made his confession. But even with Riata Newcome, I can't imagine the pressure she was under when she had to talk about you know, my daughter said this and if she did have something to say, and they were pressing her for a long time. Again, that's why, you know, it's like there's so much left unknown with this, and one day down the road we could rip this case file open and when it's all said and done and gets s'more the truth here. Antonett and Jody, I

know you live pretty local t Pikeson and have been there. Joseph, can you tell us what your recent first trip was like. It's not unlike a lot of Appalachian towns, you know, are in communities. It's you can tell that, you know, there's church just about on every corner. And the people I found were very warm. They didn't put it into vernacular. They didn't give us the side eye when we got there,

you know, they were very friendly and welcoming. I even now live in southern Appalachia, so I wasn't too far removed from my home and from that location. But when I got there, from the perspective of a forensics guy and a death investigator, everything has got to be contextualized for the environment which it occurs. You know, these horrible events and horrible events occur everywhere. No one is immune

to them. But you know, for me going to piked in and kind of seeing it, you kind of get a feel for the routes that people would run and that there are a limited number of points of egress I think to get from point eight to point B. It's not like you've got multiple surface roads where you can get to a variety of different locations. Essentially, there's

one way in and one way out. This is not a location where if you pulled in your average Joe and just slapped them down, they're going to know where to go. It informs you as an investigator that whoever ran these routes and ran the route knew the area because there's several locations along Union Hill where essentially only one car can pass us at a time in certain locations, particularly depended upon the vehicle. And one other note, if there's someone that is not of there, of that place,

you will be noticed. You will be noticed. People will take notice of your presence there because it's not heavily populated, it's sparse, and so to move through that space, you would have to know where all the twists and turns are. You'd have to know what to avoid, what's the point

of view that someone might have a particular location. All of these things are going to play into any kind of scenario that you're constructing in your mind where you're thinking, how can I go about getting away with a slaughter. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back in a moment. So, if the four Wagoners committed this crime together, who was watching Jay and Hannah Rodan's daughter? Was she in the car which is unimaginable, or wash

she home? I mean that's a special kind of crazy if you're going to take children along to kill eight people and just have them in their car seats. So I can't imagine anyone would do such a thing. So I would think somebody had to have been with those children. Hopefully we'll get that question answered. I mean, in the end, does it really matter now it's been alleged many times that each one of them had a role in this. I mean we've kind of heard that discussed before. Yeah,

because your question of doesn't matter. I mean in my mind, what would certainly is if someone outside the four is because then that person has been living with this secret knowledge that is hard to imagine. Bearing, Oh sure. I mean it's not like you just dial up a babysitter and say, hey, can you come by and watch my kids for the night. I mean, can you imagine are my grandkids? I mean, you would think that they would have spoken to that person already if there was a

fifth person watching the children or something like that. Lenny kind of closing bites Enginette. Any thoughts of this moment, Yeah, I mean I would love to see what Jake told the investigators. What was behind this? Was it just the child? And why? And I know why Jake? I mean I kind of know why. Jake confessed he found God. That's what I was. That's what I heard, So don't blay all though. You know, if he ever covered a bond hearing it, I think some kind of fine God. I

think some find God. And I guess he found he

really found him. How about that? It will be interesting to see if it was more than just the child, because to wipe out eight people over a child is you know, if that's it, that's a whole different type of thing that I'm you know, you hear about domestic violence incidents over children and divorces going ugly and a spouse kills another spouse over control, But to kill an entire family because you want one child is it is hard to wrap your head around if that is indeed

all this was about. So right now, all we know is what Jake Wagner did, So I think we can all speak with certainty that he had a major role in this. But I mean, if you're looking at trying to make sense of this, and you know it's the custody issue, but then on top of that, it does loop Hannah Guilly in to some extent because her brother

apparently he got this. You know, Hannah Rodin pregnant. You know it's not just Hannah and this child, as Hannah, her mother, her father, you know, all centered around this baby. Everyone who could get custody of this baby. You know that may be driving him at that point. But then you now have Hannah Guilly looped in through her brother and that's tied to Hannah Rodin. You know, I don't

is that enough. I mean, you know what if it comes out that and I know we all we've all heard the theory from the from the state at this point in time that this was a concerted effort by four members of the Wagner family. But you know what if it comes out that you know, Jake was truly the trigger guy, and you know the rest are sort

of on the periphery helping and supporting. You know. Again, I mean, this is just me shooting the breeze about this, but you know, it's just you try to put yourself in that mindset of doing what we know Jake did. At this point in time, and the result of whoever's actions, you still got eight people dead and children laying in the blood and the you know, the aftermath of that.

It's a hell of a situation over there. We'll continue to monitor movements in George Wagner's trial, as well as any developments regarding accused father Billy Wagner and accused mother Angela Wagner. But while we wait, we want to turn our attention back to the Michael Morian's story that we covered in episode seven. I really thought there was no way, there was no way this could be going on for so long and nobody did anything about it. One of the best lawyers in a politician, and a sitting judge

all possibly involved in this network. That's how deep this went, and that's when we knew we needed to get more women who had been through this experience to talk about what they said they'd been through with Michael Moran. We'll have part two of that next week. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The piked In Massacre Returned to Pike County is executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me

Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker and Chris Graves. The piked In Massacre Returned to Pike County is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.