139: The Human Side of Retirement with Dan Haylett (Part 1)

Work gives you more than money. So there's a real danger where people think that they just need to get out of work and they don't put the work in to go, well, actually. I need to replace things that work has given me. The number one thing. For longevity, a long and happy life is the quality of your relationships, positive relationships. And the number one challenge that people face in retirement is replacing the connections that work has given them.

And when you leave that behind, you're going to need to replace all of those because guess what? They are foundations to kind of human flourishing, not just in retirement, but in general. If you don't do that, I'm basically sending you into a 25-year weekend with no real plan. Welcome to The Human Side of Money, a show dedicated to equipping financial advisors with the skill set required to work with emotional human beings on the emotionally charged topic of money.

You'll get practical tips and insights on applying behavioral finance into your practice from conversations with fellow advisors, industry consultants and experts in the fields of behavior, psychology, communication and more. Each episode is designed to help you enhance client outcomes and forever change the trajectory of your advisory business. Now here's your host, Brendan Fraser.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to The Human Side of Money, where every minute of every episode and every conversation is designed to make both your clients and your practice infinitely better off. Anything less is simply unacceptable. Our guest today to help us do just that is none other than Dan Haley.

Dan's the Director, Head of Growth, and a Financial Planner at TFP Financial Planning. He's also the host of the Humans vs. Retirement Podcast and the Humans vs. Retirement YouTube channel. And for those of you who, like me, love a good visual to help... convey a concept in a more simple and powerful way, Dan creates some awesome visuals around the human side of retirement.

And the reason I want to have Dan on is because he has what I think or would consider to be one of the most thoughtful, intentional, and maybe even extensive processes that I've seen in this industry on how to help... Pre-retirees and retirees navigate not just the financial, but the emotional side of retirement.

And so we go through that. We walk through that. But first, we start by talking about his quote when he says that retirement is more of a human problem than a math problem, why he started to believe that, when it was, how he came to believe it. And from there, then he'll lay out... what he considers to be the seven essential human elements of a retirement plan. Purpose, identity, relationship, structure, time, well-being, and spending money. And then after that...

We dive in for the bulk of the conversation to walk through what he calls his retirement planning workbook, which is essentially a collection of exercises and resources to facilitate a deeper discovery conversation. around not just the financial, but the emotional aspects of retirement. Things like how do you uncover and get clear on your values and the things that are most important to you? How do you go through a process of determining what is it that work gives you?

What is it that you might miss from work? What are the things that you might need to replace from your work so that you're not just retiring from work, but you're retiring more intentionally to something. And if you realize that work gives you something that you didn't already think. about replacing, that you need to come up with a plan to replace it. For example, if it creates social connection, we need to think of a plan in order to recreate social connection once you retire.

And he'll go through a slew of other exercises he uses, how he sends them out to clients, how he gets them to fill them out, how he guides the conversation around these exercises with a sole focus, not on the financial side, but the human side of retirement. Or as Dan says...

Not on optimizing retirement, but on humanizing retirement. And then at the end, we'll get into another topic that Dan's passionate about, which is how does he get his clients to spend the hard earned money that they've earned? And he'll give some specific ways that he does that. like getting clients to actually start spending or getting used to spending even before they retire to help build the muscle. Now, before we get going...

If you like conversations like these, if you like ideas like these where you learn how to apply the human side day in and day out in your practice and your processes and your conversations, then you'll love our monthly newsletter. It's called The Wired Advice.

There's an article that I send out, a video that goes out, and then a collection of the best resources from around the internet and the industry. And all of it's designed to make it applicable for you to apply the human side so that you can not only enhance... enhance your business, but deepen your client relationships.

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Without further ado, enjoy this conversation on how to not optimize, but humanize retirement with Dan Halet. Dan Halet, welcome to the show. Brendan, it's... An absolute pleasure to be on here and having this conversation with you. Can't wait. Well, I think there's many different directions we could go, many different ways we could take this conversation.

This is one way of starting out right out of the gate. I'm already trying to think through what's going to be part of conversation number one, what's going to be part of conversation number two. Here's where I think we start, and it's with your own words, your own quote.

And I'm going to throw it out there and let everybody hear it. And then I'm going to let you elaborate on it and tell us what it means, where it comes from. Maybe take us inside what's actually behind it. And the quote is some version of. retirement is more of a human problem than a math problem. We could probably spend an hour on that, couldn't we? Well, I bet we probably will, yeah. Yeah, look, listen, I think... I've said this. I think there's a point in everybody's career where...

I think there's a moment, something happens. There's a moment that kind of makes you sit up and take note. I call it that kind of pull up the handbrake, 360, oh my God, hit you in the face.

that really changes the direction of your career. And for me, it was when I come across kind of complexity theory, when I started reading into complexity. And really the difference between a complicated problem and a complex problem. And at that point, I was really early on in my journey as a financial advisor. And I'd been working with clients.

on a more, you know, trying to bring in the human element because I've always wanted to do that, but still kind of more focused on the money than the human, if I was honest. And so just to unpack that, really, what I then found out and what hit me between the eyes is going, well, actually, I'm trying to solve a problem. It doesn't feel like retirement is a complicated problem. Complicated problems by their sheer nature are solvable. It's like a car engine.

It's kind of like there's a manual. You do A, B, and C. You get the outcome. The car engine starts. That's a jigsaw puzzle. You've got all the bits.

And it's a complicated problem, takes patience and discipline, but you can do it. And that's kind of where a lot of financial planning was led, right? I think it was, you know, this is a complicated problem. It's got numbers. It's a maths equation. We can solve them through cash flow or... whatever and then i was like well actually do you know what complexity is totally different a complex problem is like

raising two teenagers. I mean, I've got two, right? I've got two teenage girls. That is a very complex problem. You know, one minute they're happy, the next minute they're kind of crying in their Weetabix to like Taylor Swift songs, right? I mean, this is kind of like they are... very complex beings bless the both of them i love them dearly that makes retirement planning sound easy yeah

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, let me plan my own retirement and then bring up two teenage girls, right? Anytime. But if you think about what a complex problem is, it's... It's not solvable. It's never ending. It's human led. And it requires guidance. It requires understanding. You know, it's that complexity is about that kind of infinite loops of.

Kind of, you know, things that just keep going round and round and round. And, you know, there's a lot more to unpack there, but that's the moment for me. And I was like, look, retirement is much more. of a human problem. It's a complex problem, not this complicated maths problem that we're all trying to solve. And when I leant into that, I stopped trying to optimise retirement and I started to try and humanise it. And that's when my career shifted.

that's when all of this thing really kicked off for me. And I think that is one thing, you know, if anyone listening that wants to take something away, that statement... that work on complexity, understanding the human at the centre of this retirement issue, because, and we'll unpack this maybe later, but when you think about purpose and identity and relationships and structure and wellbeing and time and unlocking the...

spending shackles and all of this stuff that is probably 60, 70, 80% of a fulfilling retirement, that's... complex human problems, not complicated maths problems that we're solving. And that's what's transformed me, transformed my business, and really kind of led me down the path of doing all the work that I do. This concept of...

complex and complicated problems. Was there something or someone that introduced that idea to you? Or is it like your own terminology that you came up with and define the problems? Because it's one that I've heard before. I read about before, but I like how you explain it. I'm just curious for anybody that's listening going, oh, that's interesting. I wonder where he learned about that. Is there somewhere you came across it that opened your eyes to it? Various sources, really.

The guys at Shaping Wealth, Brian and Neil and Megan. Yeah. I mean, I was in cohort two of building the behavioral advisor. I was really early on in that. And they were talking a lot about this stuff, but they weren't. framing it in a retirement sense right they were kind of saying you know money is not necessarily you know the human nature of dealing with money is a complex problem not a complicated one it's not and so

You kind of take that stage further. Roger Whitney has talked about this a little bit and I've talked to him about it. And, you know, so it was kind of me digging in, Googling, coming across an article, speaking to people that have written it.

And really digging into that a little bit more. And then just applying this to life, like real clients and going, is this just in my head? Is it a theory on paper or is this something that they're feeling? And when I started... bringing in questions when i started creating worksheets about purpose and identity and bringing that into the equation the whole thing shifted

Like the whole thing shifted for them and for me. So it felt like it wasn't just something I'd read about and looked good on paper. It's something that had significantly improved outcomes for my clients and actually made...

my work so much more fulfilling. When I hear you say the whole thing shifted and improved outcomes, most of me, on one hand, I go, that makes perfect sense because...

If you've done it, you've seen it, you experience it, you know what you're talking about. For anybody that's wondering, maybe they're a little bit earlier in the journey. Maybe they're kind of like you were from the very beginning. They're entertaining this idea. They're like, I know it's important. I know that there's this element. I know.

It's more of a complex problem that I could humanize. Can you elaborate or can you tell us, try to explain what shifted or what outcomes were improved? Yeah, there is a particular story, right?

And it was a client who's been on my podcast, actually, Andy. I don't mind naming him. I'm allowed to use his name. I've got his permission. And we had this, you know, we'd done... everything right when it comes to cash flow you know and planning and numbers and everything like that and i remember him coming to sit down with me six months in

And you could tell something wasn't quite right. You could tell something was just a little bit off. And he kind of said to me, I know I've done all the money thing and that feels fine, but this doesn't feel... Like there's something not here. There's something missing. What's, you know, what is that? And that, you know, that moment for me was like, I mean, I...

I need to change because if I'm putting all the work in and all of that, you know, because there's lots of hard work. I'm not trying to, you know, say there's not a lot of hard work going into the finance. There's loads of hard work from a regulatory compliance. you know, loads of really amazing analysis and technical stuff going on there. And you put so much time and effort in, you know, and I kind of thought to myself, myself and the team have put hours and hours into Andy's.

planning and work and it feels like it was for nothing it feels like it was like this is great but like you've done some great work Dan thank you for wonderful spreadsheets and cash flow and I know what this but It's just not, something's missing. And so I wanted to make sure that that work wasn't wasted. You know, that work is equally as important.

how do I make sure that people are taking advantage of their money? How do I make sure they're living their best life in retirement and taking advantage of all the hard work that's gone into getting them to the point of where they are? I had to dig deeper. I couldn't just say, I'm a financial advisor. I deal with your money. I'm a financial planner. I do financial planning. I didn't want it to stop there. I wanted to...

Take it further to make sure that I was in a position as someone that they trusted to open up to, to be able to push the envelope, to be able to have those conversations, to be able to come up with exercises and questions. safe space to speak about this stuff so they could take advantage of their money. So, yeah, does that make sense? Is that like... Yeah, yeah. And one other thing on Andy Rockwork is...

You said that you were looking at it going, it didn't feel like it was, you had nothing to show for it. And I guess I'm wondering, did it feel like you're... Is that because he didn't seem happy? Was it like we'd done all this work, but he doesn't seem happy in his life? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's probably would have said as much.

Yeah, I mean, he did say as much, right? And like, you could see that the relationship between him and his wife was, there was a different atmosphere in that meeting, six months in, a very different atmosphere. From the elation of getting the numbers right to retiring to having six months together and thinking, gee, what, you know, what's...

What's going on here? And so there's a very different vibe, a very different feeling. I picked up on it really quickly. He said a few things at the start and I was like, this isn't going as you thought. This isn't going as I thought. I could see the path wasn't particularly great. So it felt like we had to do more. So I remember kind of sending him away. We didn't really have a great meeting.

And I didn't really go into, you know, you have the agenda for the planning meeting that you're going to do. And I was like, this doesn't feel like we need to do this. And I rescheduled it for six weeks time and kind of. That's like when I started putting together some stuff and sent him some homework to do and sent him some questions and said, let's come back and have a, you know, let's think about what we want to have a conversation about and have a proper conversation about how we can now.

align your money with what you want to do and how we can think about your time and think about how we're going to replace all that stuff and what you're going to get out of bed for and all of that and you know it just really snowballed from there and

yeah i mean that's that that's kind of the one of the first stories of it all really so in that six week window before you came back you set out to try to solve the unsolvable complex human aspect of retirement Basically, or you may you probably knew you weren't going to solve it, but you had a six week window where you said, all right, we need to do something.

I need to put together a different type of conversation or meeting or experience to help him figure out how to use his money with his life. So along those lines, you've sent over the... workbook that you take people through. You've got a lot of great content and stuff that's online that everybody can go check out on Humans vs. Retirement and the TFP Financial Planning website, which will be linked to.

I think it'd be really easy for most people to get on there or to look at some of this or even hear like some of the stuff we're going to talk about and look at this finished. product to say, well, I guess the work's never finished, right? But like you look at, and it looks like there's been a lot of time, effort, and energy put into it. And there has. What I'm curious though, is if we go back in time and you first started down this path and you're like, all right.

I want to figure out how to do this. I want to try to solve this humanizing retirement complex problem. What did it look like out of the gate? Like, was there... How in depth was it? Was it one or two questions you're asking? Did you, I guess it sounds like you did have an exercise or a workbook to go through, but what did it look like with Andy or even not just Andy, some of the first times you started bringing this element into the conversations?

Yeah, yeah. There wasn't a workbook there. I mean, the story with Andy was pre... the whole complexity complex thing right i just i just thought this isn't this isn't right i need to do something i'd read um george kinder's work um obviously i dug into you know this stuff and um

And I think it was very much kind of like a, I suppose like anyone starting their journey, I was comfortable in the numbers and less comfortable in this kind of what felt like therapy, coaching, counselling, right? Right. And again, that moment to me, because I had such a bond with Andy and Tina, I felt personally responsible for them as they felt. I felt like I hadn't done my job.

I wanted to dig in. So this was pre that. This was like, well, actually there's hard hitting George Kinder questions that I haven't really had the confidence to ask yet. But do you know what? I'm just going to. ask them. There was some other things that I thought I should ask him about his time. And, you know, so I sat down and for a couple of weeks just thought, can I come up with a list of 10 questions?

including the George Kinder ones, thinking about what we spoke about, just for him to start thinking about this stuff. And I wrote him in an email, Brendan, just put him in an email. And I was like, Andy, here's the questions. I want to catch up in four to six weeks time. And can we, you know, send me some answers back if you want to bring the questions with you. If you don't, you know, if you haven't answered them all already, but this is the kind of thing I want to talk about before we get.

any numbers back up on the screen because I don't think we've connected properly with them.

And yeah, that was kind of, you know, just experimenting around that stuff, really. And as I've kind of moved through and progressed, and I'm sure we'll get onto this, I've found... my style in the and i found the way that i like to deliver them um and it's kind of all just you know the workbook's been in existence for a couple of years now in its current form And I've kind of found the rhythm of how I think people react the best to it, which are...

which I'll share with you. Cause I think there's this debate about, do you sit down in front of them and ask these questions or do you kind of, you know, we can unpack that, but I think I found the rhythm and the right way of do it for me anyway. for doing this. But yeah, it's been six years in the making, right? Seven years in the making from that conversation. And very early on, they were emails with questions to go to people and go, let's have a conversation thereafter.

and then just formalizing them and, you know, listening to your great podcast and the great guests that you've got on and, you know, Meg Lertz and people like that that have got wonderful frameworks around asking questions and taking the best bits, the ones that...

you know there's a lot of trial and error in that workbook as well there's a lot of kind of like oh that one didn't work so that can't go in there anymore and that one landed flat or you know so yeah that that's kind of early version is not what it is now definitely when you We emailed Andy the questions. Were you nervous at all?

Yeah. Were you like, how is he going to respond? Is he going to want to have these conversations? Is he going to email back and be like, get out of here, Dan. You're my financial planner, not my therapist. Was there any type of concern? And did it, did he, the other thing I was wondering, did he actually.

send back his answers prior to that meeting four to six weeks later? Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, lots of trepidation in it, right? I mean, we spoke before we hit record about doing things because you feel like you've got to the end of...

like the process i we talked about a sketch that i do you know and you feel like you've done everything or there's this moment with a client that you think there's a hail mary pass here i've just got to chuck it and see what see what happens because yeah um and it felt like

that meeting was it i felt like i had nothing to lose because it felt like to lose my approach yeah yeah like um you know this this this doesn't this doesn't feel like to me it can get not any worse but it doesn't feel like i can do any harm

in opening up this. And again, because I'd built such a bond, I actually felt comfortable having the conversation with him, but I didn't feel comfortable in asking him. Does that make sense? Like if he'd come back with responses, I was cool. I could have that conversation. But if you come back with negativity, like you said, why the hell are you asking me this stuff? Just do the planning and stay in your lane, Dan.

But I thought, you know, we're going to go for it because there's nothing to lose. And he answered half of the questions and got back some answers to me. And the other half... He didn't, we didn't really get to them in the meeting. We, you know, just having the ability and space and time for him and Tina to talk about some of the stuff I highlight, particularly the Kinder three questions unlocked a lot for them.

And so we didn't really need to, it didn't feel like I had a sit on the couch therapy session with him in the next meeting. It actually felt like they come up with a lot of the answers themselves because they had time and space to think about this stuff.

which was a really, really cool outcome. And then that took a lot of the anxiety away from me because I was like, well, I don't feel like I have to sit there with tissues for them to feel like it's going to be this open, you know, really challenging conversation.

had that but they've had that at home and they've come into the meeting in a reasonably good state prepared for um a kind of a a money meaning values type conversation we've alluded to this a couple times now but you've got the retirement planning workbook would you say that this is and we can dig into it a little bit as far as like because i do want to hear evil you've also said this i do want to hear you explain

how you came up with it and how you found your own rhythm and what you're comfortable with. I think that's probably one of the more underrated components of delivering this human side and humanizing the processes. Don't just do what you hear.

somebody else does and try to copy and paste it you do have to find what's comfortable with to you find your group so we'll get into that but would you say that this approach this retirement planning workbook the exercises that are in there is Ultimately, at this point, the way that you've tried your best to solve the humanizing of retirement, and I know there's probably more that goes into it than that, but this is your...

example of here's the best way I know to humanize it is this workbook and the exercises and the questions that I'm guiding people through. Yeah, absolutely. The way that I would say is that it's... The workbook is pieces of the puzzle, but the puzzle is never-ending and all the bits aren't there. So this is...

Does that make sense? I'm smiling because as someone that doesn't even like puzzles to begin with, a never-ending puzzle sounds like my absolute worst nightmare. Anxiety-driven. An ending puzzle doesn't sound fun. So anyways. It does make sense. This is my stab at creating pieces of the puzzle that people can put together that gives them the best opportunity to...

plan and live their retirement as best they can, knowing that it's an ever-evolving thing. Maybe, maybe let's put it like this. This is a complete jigsaw puzzle, but... Every time you open the box, the jigsaw pieces are back scrambled up and they're all different again. Like they're, you know.

the bit on values has got a different shape to it. I think that's probably the best. Like it feels like you can take these pieces and align them, but because it's a complex problem that needs constant evaluation and guidance. We'll go again in a year's time and go through some of the questions again and the answers might be different. So you have to kind of jiggle that piece of the puzzle around. But yeah, kind of as I've looked through the pieces of the puzzle and I'm...

documenting this more and more and more. And this is what's happened as I've kind of pulled together a manuscript for a book that will hopefully be coming out in the next few months. This is kind of purpose, identity, structure. wellbeing, relationships, time, and spending money. They are the pieces of the puzzle, the human pieces of the puzzle that I think need planning for looking at.

And it's kind of what I've dubbed the unspoken truths of retirement that no plan prepares you for. They're the bits that I think we need to kind of work on alongside all of the wonderful technical work that we do. on the money to give them financial peace of mind and security. But if they don't know what they're retiring with and to, then that financial peace of mind and security can often be worthless. And so this is that.

that bit of the pie to be able to feel like there's ways, there's means that they can unlock some of these things and start to think about it themselves. So they know the consequences of... what they're doing and they've got an ability to, um, to really plan for some of the really important stuff as they enter into, into, into retirement. Were there seven of those? What do we call them? Human elements principles. Do you have any branded it yet?

Yeah, so basically you've got the five pillars of a thriving retirement is what I call them. So that is purpose, identity, relationships, structure, and wellbeing. And then you've got... these two overarching human elements that bring money into the equation, which is time and spending money. So they're like the seven... the elements that I think people really need to work on from a human point of view.

where spending time and money has a direct relationship and correlation maybe with some of the technical planning work that you do. And that's where the overlap is. But yeah, they're the seven bits that I think, you know, a lot of the workbook, a lot of the other worksheets, a lot of the conversations I have, they're really focusing in on those elements.

Why don't we? Because I'm sure people are probably at this point wondering, OK, what is this work? What is in this workbook? Take us inside and let us know what is happening. It sounds great. So take us through in the best way you know how maybe the – I guess we know the purpose of the workbook, but like what's inside. Now, I don't think we could – we probably can't go through the entire thing because it is lengthy. But like –

Essentially, maybe we could look at it through the lens of if you've got these pillars, these elements, why are those important? And then how are you in the workbook bringing those up or addressing them? with clients or prospects. Yes. I mean, the workbook is, is.

kind of the amalgamation of all that reading and everything that I've done, right? So, you know, you'll probably notice some of the stuff in there. It's got Marty Seligman's positive psychology, you know, the PERMA models in there, versions of George Kinder's questions. Some of the work I've done with Shaping Wealth, it's got real exercises that I come up a little bit off the cuff with clients in meetings. So it's a real combination of everything. And really the purpose of the work...

is to go through those particular elements. So there's... The sections are values, your values, life review, the PERMA model, purpose, vision, money blueprint, health and wellness, and then a section about kind of contentment and some freehand kind of writing.

for people to do in there. And it's just trying to address those areas. And I think what I say up front is if we take everything I've said about the human, what I do know is that people work at different paces. This isn't a, I don't have a retirement workbook meeting. I don't send this to them and go complete all of this. We're going to do it in a couple of hours and we're going to go through everything and solve all your problems. This is, by the way. That has happened though.

People have got this workbook and spent an evening or a day and devoured it and come up with stuff and come back to me. And we've had the most amazing couple of hours talking about this thing. But I've also got clients that have done section one and gone, oh my God, this is too much. My head's gone. You know, that kind of thing. So I'll tell you how I frame it in a second with them.

This is an ongoing process. This could take two meetings, three meetings. It could come into some of the financial meetings. It can be an ad hoc planning meeting or review meeting that we have with someone. It could be in their annual planning meeting.

I'm not worried about how we get there. I just want to get there. I want to get there as quick as I can, but I have to work at their pace. Is everybody getting it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and again, it comes back to who we work with as a business, right? We don't. There's a few exceptions like children of some of our clients that we will help. But in general, we don't take on anyone that isn't at a point in their life where this is valuable to them.

You know, so we want to show our expertise and I want to put that kind of six years of knowledge to use. So I want to work with these people. Well, and I'll point this out too. I think it's important. Well, actually, let me ask this question first, then I'll point it out. Have you ever had anybody that sort of balked at it or was hesitant or in any type of way refused? No, I mean.

Hesitant in some of the areas, but not hesitant to complete it. Okay. You know, we've had a conversation. They've gone... that bit didn't apply, or I felt really uncomfortable answering that section, or I couldn't think of anything for that particular section, you know, those kinds of things. But no outright refusal to engage. This is where I think it's important to point out. And this is an important note. It's like a caveat, but it's also a huge compliment to you. But...

Almost all of the content that you put out on social media and the blogs that you write, the podcast, the YouTube channel has a very, very strong human element. to it intentionally. Right. And so, I mean, humans versus retirement is the name of it. So it's like in the, in the actual title and the name is this idea that there's more to retirement than just numbers of conversations that you're having.

are more like along these lines, the sketches that you're drawing aren't on the time value of money. It's on like, Hey, you're going to die with a lot of money in your, in your account. What is that? Why would you do? I mean, obviously you don't say it like that.

But it's a great example of, I would imagine that if somebody's working with you or they're reaching out, especially on a newer client or a prospective client, if they're reaching out, they probably already have a pretty good idea that this is... baked into the process or it's going to be talked about at some point. It might be a little bit different if, let's say, I had a website that talked about my prowess when it comes to...

retirement income optimization or equity compensation and the amazing analysis that we run. And then you come in and I'm like, hey, by the way, why don't you answer a few of these questions around how you would feel if... you were to die tomorrow. That would be a little bit more abrupt. I just wanted to paint the picture that I imagine you frame it well anyways.

But it's also just a great example of how if you do the whole funnel well, it makes everything else that comes afterwards that much easier. Absolutely. In preparation for this podcast, I wrote that down. I think one thing I will say is that the new clients coming to me, you hit the nail on the head, they are expecting this. Right.

They come to me because of this. They've listened to several podcast episodes. They've watched a YouTube video. They've read one of my blogs. They know that I work on this stuff alongside the money. and so this is you know they are so much more open to having this conversation and so much more open to doing this work because they're coming to me because they know they want to or they have to or they need to and

That feedback I've had from people is like, I know I've needed to work with a financial advisor, but I didn't want to work with a financial advisor. Like that kind of, it's like, I wanted to work with someone like you. I need someone to help me everywhere. on this stuff. And so I'm open to having these conversations. I'm open to speaking about my purpose and my time because I've listened to three, four of your podcast episodes and I know that I've got to find my purpose in retirement.

So, and I know that you're the person to talk to me about it because you've been speaking about this a lot. And that's what I would say to anyone listening, right? Whether it's, and by the way, the correct way to say this is niche, whether it's niche. Thank you. Great clarification. Whether it's niching, whether it's whatever you want to call it, the funnel thing that you said.

putting the value out into the world, however you do it, staying true to those values, true to that particular thing that you love doing, the onboarding of clients is so much easier. so much easier they're ready to do the work and they're ready to fill this stuff out and they're ready to have the conversations which is truly amazing for the work that i do with them because i don't feel like like i said about the andy thing i don't feel like i'm having to introduce

this on the back foot like it's going to be a therapy session they're ready they're ready to do this right and the other beauty of it is like you're when they come in to onboard you've already laid the foundation they have that expectation but also What you're not seeing, you know, it's happening, but the part that you don't see are those people who engage. They hear you talk about let's I mean, let's go as far as like your purpose in retirement, your how your past impacts.

your retirement and your beliefs when it comes to money. And there's going to be some people that see that and they're like, what in the world? I just want to retire. I just need to know how much can I spend and can I live? I don't want to get into all that stuff. And that's fine. But but you don't have to worry about. them coming to you and wanting to work with you and then dealing with like the

that's where you might get people that outright refuse it. But instead they're like, Nope, this isn't my guy. I'm going to go find somebody else who will just put the numbers together for me and move on. And so it works out in that situation as well. Cause you're all, you're, you're not just attracting the right people. You're also repelling.

Exactly. The wrong people. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Which is just marketing one-on-one, I suppose. It is. But I think an important point. Yeah. And the right people, as I said, I've got one particular client who had listened to several podcast episodes, reached out to me on LinkedIn. We've had several conversations on LinkedIn. He decided to work with me and knew exactly what he was getting, sent him and his wife this workbook, and they'd done it within a couple of hours.

But that's got to be the exception, though. No, no, it is. But devoured it because... But what I'm saying is, I mean, that was a year. I didn't know. He told me, like, I've been following you for a year. I've been listening to your stuff for a year. I've been getting myself ready for the last year to come in and have this in-depth conversation with you. And soon as he felt ready, they both come in, had it, done the workbook, come back in, done all their stuff.

And he went and handed his notice in six weeks after starting working with us. And he thought he had to work for another three years because he thought he needed a load of prep time. But that... That is, it is the exception, but you know what, Brendan, I don't think that will be going forward. I think, you know, I think we can, we can narrow that gap down because.

The beauty about content stuff, the beauty about podcasting, as you'll know, the beauty about public work is that people will consume that and be in a position to do this going forward in a much better way. So with him, for example, when you sent this, you finally engaged, you sent the email and asked him to fill it out. You said you're going to mention this. How do you...

How do you frame it? How do you mention it? Is it an attachment, a PDF attachment in the email? How do you frame it? And how do you get them to what's your instructions on how to go about tackling it? Because I would imagine that. Like you said, if you were to sit down doing one sitting, it's long. There's some really thought-provoking questions. It could take a while. So how do you tee that up or set the expectation?

So the purpose really of putting the workbook together like it is that it can be manipulated in the sense of if I've had some conversations with them, I might've had one or two conversations at the start. you know, in terms of figuring out whether we can work with them and all of that, there'll be an understanding about maybe what they should do upfront and what they don't need to worry about. So I might say, you know what, don't worry about... the exercise on...

on life values. I just really want to know what your purpose is and what your vision for retirement is. So do exercises five and three. So that will come through. But in general, what I say to people is, What you need to do is have a look through the workbook. Complete as much as you want or you feel like you need to. We'll get together and go through some of that.

with you don't feel like this is a one and done exercise we'll work on this as we go through typically we'll sit down with people five or six times during the kind of initial work with them and so What I don't try and do is separate this out by going, right, so we're going to do workbook and then we're going to just do all numbers. Like I want it to be this kind of this blend all the way through because I think you can connect the numbers to some of this in a bit more.

in a bit more detail um and so yeah it's kind of making sure that i understand them well enough before sending it out to be able to say, well, these are the more important exercises to do. These are the ones that we should really not worry about so much and kind of just, yeah, go through it that way with them. But I suppose the thing that I will say is...

The one thing I've absolutely realised is this type of staff is so much better done via workbook in their house, via worksheets in their house. I've tried all different methods. over the last six or seven years, sitting down in front of someone with like a blank sheet of paper and the questions and asking them, you know, how would you feel if the doctor said you had six months to live? Or, you know, what makes you anxious about or feel anxious?

about stepping away from work or, you know, these kind of things, you know, talk about their identity, you know, who are you going to be when you leave your job? And I think... Those conversations just feel a bit flat sometimes. It doesn't feel like they open up. It feels like they answer them in a way that they think they should answer them to you. The best impact.

The best workbooks that I've seen filled out, the best meetings I've had is when you've given them permission, time and space to go and think about this stuff. And that's kind of why I put the workbook together in the first place. I was like, I feel like I need a thing. I need a thing that's got the exercises. in it that they can have and think about and just work through and come back to me with some questions i've had people go hey dan i've read that question does it mean this

You know, because I'm thinking like this, is that right? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, go down that road. Just carry on answering it like that. It feels like that to me is my best way of delivering it. So I try and do everything on a worksheet, workbook basis and then discuss the answers. get the flip chart up. I said to you before we hit record, I'd get a lot of my clients, I get to stand up and do the work. Like it feels a bit cheaty, but I get the flip chart out and I go.

Like, why don't you write down what this means? Or what I've said to a lot of people is, if you had to sketch something that means that, what would you draw? which really starts to get the juices flowing. I can only imagine when you ask that, at least 50% of people go, okay, but I'm not a very good draw. I'm not an artist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Neither am I. And I still try and do stuff. So we're good. But even writing stuff down. So I've, you know.

I have people that I go, let's talk about this. One of you stand up. And I literally, 45 minutes, I say two words because they end up talking to one another about what they're going to do over the next 12 months. So it just opens up those. I don't ever believe that this thing is like the solvable piece of the pie. This isn't going to solve it. This is that conversation starter, those opening.

the opening gambit, the reason for them to feel like they're free, they can trust me, there's an open space, no judgment. We can just talk about this stuff as much or as little as you want throughout a time period that suits you best.

Just to clarify, and I think I know this, but just want to make sure in case anybody's wondering, you don't, though, give them this, send them this, identify a couple of the exercises for them to go through, and then... They go through it. They sit at their house, fill it out, have a good conversation. And then the next time you're with them, you're on to something else and something different. It's not like that you don't give them this to do.

on their own. And then the next time they come in, you're back to something else. They do it on their own. They have the time and space to think about it. And then when you're back together, you'll essentially bring up. And ask them, hey, what was it like? What did you find out? What did you learn? What do you want to talk about? And so it's not, hey, take this and do this without me. It's you're just trying to give them the time and the space to.

think about it talk about it work on it so that when you do have a conversation about it it's a better conversation 100 yep absolutely there's a section in there about shared vision and working as a couple right so

I want them to talk about this stuff. I talk about the kind of three journeys of retirement. You need to figure out what... you want to do what your spouse wants to do and what you can do together where do those goals align where do they differ and how can you adjust and compromise because i do actually see my when you look at all the divorce stats in retirement right in the uk back in 1990

9% of all divorces were from people, couples over age 60. It's now 40%. 40% of all divorces in the UK are with couples over age 60. And I'm not saying I'm... You know, I'm this like savior. But what I do know is that if couples don't have these conversations and they're not thinking about this in the right way, there will be conflict. Yeah.

It will be, so I want them to talk about this stuff. I want them to have, I'd rather them have the hard conversation now than in three years time when they realize that it's all, you know, that it's lost. and they can't have it. Let's figure out those things now because actually they are, we can figure them out. We can understand what that means. So I get them to, as a couple, I get them to fill one out individually and then I want them to talk about it together.

and talk about their answers and et cetera, what it means. And what you'll find is it isn't always stereotypically the male. but that kind of the working dominant spouse, or if they're both working, they'll fill it in different ways, right? So some of these questions won't apply to maybe the person that's at home that isn't working, but some of them will absolutely apply to them.

as well. Dan Halet, saving marriages across the UK. Not only is he a financial planner, but he's a life coach, a marriage therapist. He does it all, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe not label me as that. Maybe we should, what I'm not going to do, but I could do, but you may not know, but what you should do is you should track the divorce rate of your clients over age 60 and compare that. yeah to the to the 40 rate and see if if you have a higher

Success rate. I'm joking, but also I love the idea, which is it's you're 100 percent right. How many most of the time couples when they haven't had they know that they need to have the conversations, but they're not because there's. not enough time. There's not enough capacity or they're avoiding it because they know that there's going to be conflict. And sometimes you just need to sit down and actually like talk through it. And so this not going to say forces them to do it, but it creates the.

space for them to actually have these conversations so that they don't get to a point where it's too late and there's too much tension. And so I'm joking, but I also think it's an awesome idea. Is there one...

of these exercises that everybody, absolutely everybody has to do or should do? The one that I really love, and I love it not because... I love it. I love it because the impact that I've seen it have is the, so it's kind of in the section around purpose. So in purpose, I've got some, and I go through some questions that are a bit.

kind of Ikigai-ish. So that sets up the purpose. Like, what would you love to do? What are you good at? So there's Ikigai running through this. So anyone that doesn't know what Ikigai is- I was going to say, may need to explain that real quick. Yeah, so Ikigai is a Japanese concept about- Basically, it's finding your purpose.

And they frame it in a way that kind of says you need to figure out what you love to do, what you're good at, what problems you can help people solve, and what work you could do that feels like it's giving back and meaningful. There's a guy that was on my podcast that I recommend. There's David Marlowe, who's wrote a book called The Ikigai Way, which is phenomenal. And he frames it in such a better way than anything else I've read. But it's that Venn diagram he thought.

circles thing that if you google it you'll see it but it's they're really good questions to try and get people to figure this stuff out it's i just to make sure it's i think i'll double check it here but it's I-K-I-G-A-I. That's it. It's like I would Google it, except I don't know how to spell it. There it is. I-K-I-G-A-I. All right, go ahead. Yeah, and I think if...

Anyone ever has trouble having conversations with their clients in retirement about their purpose or they recognize there's an issue there, order them a book on Ikigai. Just get them to read that or you read that yourself. It's really, really...

Excellent. But in that section about purpose, I talk about that. I talk about what gives them both from a lifestyle and an economic point of view. I get them to what they've observed in retirement, good and bad. And then it gets into a bit about emotional preparation. There's a question that I ask, how do you currently define yourself in your work life? What are your feelings about transitioning to retirement? And then there's another exercise where I get those four blocks.

And I get them to write down their feelings about retirement. What will they miss from work? What they won't miss from work? What are they looking forward to? And what are they anxious about? And what's really eye-opening in this, particularly in relationships with couples where there is the working spell, right? You've got someone who has worked all their life and maybe someone who stayed at home and brought up the kids.

And opening up that conversation with them, I think, has been one of the biggest bits of this workbook. Because they... Nine times out of 10, they're not speaking to the spouse and going, by the way, I'm really going to miss this. Oh, and I won't miss this. And I'm really looking forward to this. And I'm really anxious about this. One of the examples I've got was with a client who he put, I'm really looking forward to.

spending more time with my wife and in the anxious bit he put i'm really anxious about spending more time with my wife and it was just quite and and it was just eye-opening because she was just like I didn't know you felt like that. And he was like, yeah, like, you know, I can't wait to spend time with you, but.

We've never been in each other's pockets for the last 40 years. I've always been at work. You've brought up the kids. I really don't know how that's going to work as a relationship. I can't wait to kind of have this time with you, but I'm really anxious about it as well. And that just opened up. a wonderful conversation with them both about what that means. They were very happily married, but you could see the relationship. She was very empathetic towards him. She was just like, wow.

Thanks for telling me. How can we make that less anxious? What do you need from me? What can we do together? And so I think just framing it really simply is kind of, you know, what are you retiring from? What are you retiring to? What are you really looking forward to doing? But also what's giving you this kind of this. underlying feeling that I'm a little bit anxious about this stuff.

And that really sets up a lot of the conversations I have with them about this emotional journey of retirement that everybody goes through. I love this example for this reason.

Because it's absolutely 100% a great... Question asked that gets them to highlight something that they know, but they haven't really talked about. I mean, in fact, I would say the guy who the man who wrote it down. probably didn't even really think of it that way until he had sat there and wrote it down. Right. And he probably said, he probably eventually went, Oh wow. I guess I'm excited and anxious about it. I'd never really put it together like that.

So it's a great example of, hey, if you're going to do this retirement thing, you're going to do it well. You're going to do it successfully. You're going to thrive once you get there. This is a really, really important thing to be aware of. And at the same time. As you were explaining what they said and how he said it, my brain immediately went to, okay, how would I solve that? If I'm you, I'm the advisor in that room, what do I...

do with this? How do I help them with this? Because what I can't do is I can't pull up my financial planning software or investment proposal or balance sheet or net worth statement. So how did you how do you think through or approach those conversations? How do you see your role? in a conversation like that, when they've highlighted that and you're like, hey, there's really no financial planning answer to solve here. How do you approach that? A couple of ways, really. I think I...

Going back to the human complex thing, I don't know if I'm trying to solve anything here. Right, right. So in my head now, I'm very comfortable with not solving. this particular problem because i'm not sure it's a problem that can be solved as such but i also think i've done like i've almost done my job by opening up the conversation right i'm not saying i stop it there but

Because I don't think it can be solved, I feel like I've added so much value just by opening up that conversation. And that's great, right? We don't have to kind of go any deeper. And actually there are, you know, you and I know a number of financial therapists, right? This is not, you know, if this went, and I've referred some people, if this went deeper outside of my remit or skill area.

then you can get them to talk to other professionals about this. But by opening up the conversation, in my experience, 95% of people... are having great conversations and flipping the script themselves. I think there's a fear that this just goes really deep. And it doesn't always go there because they've opened it up.

And that's what great coaching is, right? Coaching is obviously you get people to come up with the answer and almost kind of ask themselves the question and answer the questions themselves. But with that information, with the example that I gave you, it then...

And that's why spending time and money is this overarching thing, right? It filters down into that for me. So if you're looking forward to spending time with your wife and you're anxious about it, what are you looking forward to and what are you anxious about? So delve into that. And then it goes into, well, this is now about how you're going to spend your time.

And how you're going to spend your time is then how you're going to spend your money. So we can take away some of those, because I've had some of those anxieties around, I'm going to miss. you know, the financial security. I'm anxious about traveling a lot. In our joint bucket list, we've got all this travel that I really want to do and I can't wait to get there. But I'm anxious about being able to fund it because I really want to do it.

So it often does filter down into stuff that we can start to talk about. We can start to show them around, you know. In your go-go years of retirement, you can increase your spending by this because it all fits in with your financial plan and all of that stuff that we go into. I mean, you can make that link happen. And actually, for a lot of people in retirement, it does link back to time and money a lot of the time. If it starts at time and money, you're not...

you're not addressing the issue. If it starts with purpose and identity and relationships and wellbeing and structure, then we can get to the crux really quickly and we can address it with. time and money and that's where we can come in with all of the planning software, all of the tools, all of the things that we know about this stuff to help them take away some of those concerns to go and make sure they can go and live the life they want.

Hey, everybody. Brendan again. Hope you've enjoyed part one of this conversation with Dan Halet. Sorry to interrupt it, but he had so many good ideas and thoughts that we had to break it into two parts. And if you like part one, you're going to love part two, because in part two, we dive in further into his workbook and his process that he takes his clients through the how to identify values, how to create meaning and purpose and human.

We'll talk through even more specific examples of that. And then at the end, we'll talk about his behaviorally informed approach to help clients shift from a savings mindset to a spending mindset. when they get to retirement. Again, if you like these ideas, if you want more practical ideas of how to apply these things day in and day out, sign up for the Wired Advisor newsletter at www.rfgadvisory.com.

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