Welcome to today's podcast sponsored by Hillsdale College, All Things Hillsdale at Hillsdale dot ed or I encourage you to take advantage of the many free online courses there, and of course I'll listen to the Hillsdale dialogues, all of them at Q for Hillsdale dot com or just Google, Apple iTunes and Hillsdale Morning.
Glory and even Grace America.
Merry Christmas Eve, twenty twenty five. I'm here you at live in the studio. Not a lot of news today, and that's fine. People are out busy getting to their families, getting the last minute Christmas preparations ready, cooking dinner, getting ready to go to midnight Mass or church services. Many of you are coming back from the four o'clock service. They're getting ready to come to the four o'clock service where the kids will do the reenactment of the Manger scene.
Have a wonderful Christmas Eve. Be careful where there is snow. There lost snow in Maine and up in the Northern Tier, but in California it's a nightmare reign like you have not seen in a long time. And just be careful as you go doing in feud a grandmother's house, don't slide off the street, be aware of bud slides and all that other stuff. I wanted to begin today on Christmas Eve by reminding you that Christians are celebrating hope. They're celebrating the arrival of a Jewish Messiah to a
Jewish mother in Judea roughly for Ad. That's what scholars think now. And it's all set all of the Gospels and Galilee, Samaria and Judea, lot in Capernaum, lot, some in Nazareth, not happy times in Nazareth, some in Egypt, a little bit in Samaria, mostly in Judea. And it's a Jewish story, which is why I want to begin on Christmas Eve with an appreciation for our Jewish older
brothers and sisters. Dennis Prager likes to joke when we see them Issiah, either we'll be seeing him for the first time or the second time, and one of us will be right, but we'll be both there together. And Dennis was able to do a message by the way with Marissa, and it was wonderful. But I've been bothered, and this is not personal. I'm not going to bring
up any particular names. I have been bothered by the almost straight line rise in anti Semitism around the world and especially in New York, and of course by the deadly violence not just in and around Israel over the last two years, but at Bondai Beach in Australia, in Europe, in New York City and anti Semitism. I thought about it last night and I made notes to myself. There are lots of books written by authors Dennis Prager one. I've talked with Dennis about this often at length. There
are at least five sources of anti Semitism. They come up with Number one. People are afraid and scared of complex events and rapid change. Scary stuff happens every day, and people want an explanation to cling to. So some people come up with the Trilateral Commission is doing this, or the Builderbergers are doing this, or Davos is doing this to us, or the old stand by the ancient evil.
The Jews are doing this to us. Now, believe it or not.
Anti Semitism predates Christianity, but it got turbo charged by the medieval church, Catholic Church, and John Paul went out of his way, Saint John Paul the Second to apologize for that condemn it, as did Benedict.
Ye.
People are afraid. They look for answers. They grab onto anything, any explanation they were. Secondly, some folks are sad to say, just not very bright.
Some are stupid.
They read antimitic literature like the Bizarrest manufactured Protocols for the Elder of Zion. I mean, it's really terrible writing. It's idiot, and they fall for it. They think Jews are running banking or Hollywood or media, and they're doing it in some kind of a giant conspiration. It's that it's really quite dumb, but they believe it. Others aren't stupid, but aren't ignorant. They haven't done any basic reading. And I'm not talking about memorizing Will Durrant Aarl Durant History
of Civilization. I think of one recent book. Barry Strauss wrote, Jews versus Rome, and it's about the Jewish wars against the Roman Empire. The big one is sixty six to seventy, but there are two other ones before Finally the Second Temple was leveled in seventy a d. And Barcavo Coba Revolt one thirty two. After that, they just drive most of the Jews away after they kill about a half million of them.
The Romans too, Romans killed Jesus too.
And at that time roman were so down on Jews they renamed the land from Judea to Palestine, actually Syria Palestine, and they had other prefects go and rule it. But if you haven't even read that, if that's all news to you, you just you need to do some reading. Third that was third summer ignorant, so he got some are scared, some are stupid, Summer ignorant. Some are mentally ill and whatever reason, mental illness gets into some people heads and they make Jews the object of their insanity
and then get over that with treatment. But you don't understand, and you can't possibly begin. I think of the Trio Life synagogue massacre. That Fellow was amped up on white supremacist anti Jewish stuff, and I just think that's mental illness with a gun. The kind that we are seeing more and more is corrupt anti Semitism. I can't read minds, and you can't read minds. You don't know what's in my heart. You don't know God does, nobody else does, not,
even the fetching missus s Hewett. But some people are quite obviously making a bunch of dough off of being antisemitic. They make money to believe libels against Jews, you know, like they run the banks and they run Hollywood, or they run the White House, or they were behind the assassination of Charlie Kirk, or that Israel is in a apartheid state, or that there's a genocide in Gaza. These are demonstrably false things, and to pedal them, you ask yourself,
why are they peddling? Because the first four categories want to see their fears, their stupidity, their ignorance, or their mental illness rationalized and made coherent and packaged in the right way.
So none of that's true.
Israel is objectively the most important ally of the United States in a world of free countries, opposed by the alliance of tyrants led by g Putin, Kim Jong Un Hammini Maduro, the gang run in Cuba. There are a bunch of tyrants around the world, and they're not our friends.
And Israel is. It's a nuclear superpower.
It's an intelligence superpowered as the will and ability to project power along with us, as we did in Operation Midnight Hammer. Thank you President Trump this summer, but on this eve, just a reminder, we are celebrating the birth of a Jewish baby boy in Judea to a Jewish mother. Jesus historical figure featured in non Christian writings of Josephus
and of course in the Gospels. And later in the program, I'm talking with doctor Mark Roberts, who's a scholar of extraordinary import I think his best book is Can We Trust the Gospels?
On Why we Can?
But he is also a Dickens savant about a Christmas carol, and twenty one years ago, in two thousand and four, we did a program on the Christmas carol that got lost or a ransomware attack, believe it or not, and that happened. So he's coming back. I'm giving myself a Christmas present in hour two by talking to Terry Pluto, my favorite sports writer, and I'm going to talk about
Conservatism Inc. Broadcast and our number two. I got a lot to cover today, but I wanted to start off by saying, on this Christmas Eve, just remember, we're celebrating the birth of.
A Jewish boy to a Jewish mother who Christians.
Believe is the Messiah, and that is the reason for the season, and it's why I hope you have a wonderful Christmas.
Will be out of Welcome back to America. I'm Hugh Hewett.
On Christmas Eve twenty twenty five, I decided I'd give myself a present and I would talk to my favorite sports journalist in America, the one and only Terry Pluto. You've heard Terry Pluto many times on this program over the years. And Terry's got a brand new book out which is perfect if you at a gift card for Christmas. It's entitled why Can't this Team Just Find a Quarterback? And Other Thoughts on life in Brownstown? Terry Pluto, Merry Christmas.
How are you, my friend?
I am doing well, Hugh. I mean, look Christmas Eve and I'm with you, so I'm good with that.
Well, thank you.
I also want you to know we have been running a campaign called Angel Tree for the children of people who are in prison. I don't know if you do prison ministry anymore. You might be doing more homeless ministry now, But when you were doing prison ministry, did did Christmas hit the inmates hard?
Yeah?
And well the homeless. I'll be there tomorrow night at the behave and arrest, which is after we did a couple of punds a month by wife and I and he wants to be in jail. Who wants to be in a homeless shelter on Christmas? Because everything is reads it you know, you're away from your family or your wing the family that it's difficult. But one thing that is interesting sometimes is that when people are struggling with the same things, it will bring them together and you'll
find that they'll be talking, really encouraging each other. They kind of go two ways. Either people isolate or they come together. There's not a lot of anger or anything. It's those two things.
Well, I think that's a wonderful thing to do on Christmas, even on Christmas Day, So thank you for that. And I was listening to Terry's talking last night. If you can pull your computer a little bit closer to you, Terry, I think the sound might be get a little bit muffled there because your computers distant.
I was listening to.
Your weekly podcast with David Campbell, the editor of Cleveland dot Com, and a couple of thoughts occurred. First of all, a lot of your correspondence do something that is rare in our country, they thank you too for doing your jobs. And I got to thinking about the number of sports journalists who work on the holidays, who work around the clock, who work really hard. You got a Cavaliers Knicks game to cover tomorrow, you might be able to cover it
from your couch. I'm not sure, but generally speaking, do you think the public understands how hard sports journalists work.
Well?
I remember years ago there was a writer. This is when I set the Beacon Journal and I was moving from being the Cavaliers beat man to becoming a columnist.
And this guy is a news writer and he goes, man, I would love basketball.
I'd really like to cover that. And then what happened? He goes to the schedule. He goes, it's like every weekend. Yeah, yeah, you get a figure of the three days Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Two of them they're probably going to be playing. They might have practiced on the other one. That's how it goes. You know, if you cover the NFL, it's every weekend. The flip side is I worked in a food warehouse
growing up. My dad worked with the old Fisher five the other Awes and believe went when I worked there for I think four summers, and he certified to teach the state of Ohio. I taught six months at and West, which is on West twenty fifth and Cleveland, tough neighborhood. I taught five classes of history and social studies, and I had a three preps and.
A tell y'all.
I thought, I'll write compared to that stuff anytime you want, because that was real, real work, and this is I mean it could be hard in draining at times, but it's so different. And I mean he also has an audience. I mean, you have the same thing you've had an audience. People are care of like what you say or whatever, whether they agree or disagree. They're actually interested in that. That's a blessing. Very few of us in life and our jobs are people paying that kind of attention to us.
And as you said, thanking them.
I enjoy Terry's talking so much, and you and Dave Campbell have established it's a great chemistry that I think you could do it longer or more often, but it's already you're working hard enough. How is the new book selling? Which is another owed to I will soon be seventy. I have no memory of nineteen sixty four, and so my whole theory on the Browns is I don't care
what they do get to the super Bowl soon. Do whatever has the quickest chance of getting to the super Bowl, which I think means sticking with Shador and drafting Tate and op I, like you guys were talking last night, Dave was talking last night. I want to get to a super Bowl on this side of Heaven, Terry.
That's all.
I have a very small ask.
Well, it could turn into some very big mistakes. I mean, that's one of the things we talked about in the book, where I can't this team dropt the quarterback that led to I want to get to a super Bowl yesterday, Let's do this. I don't care that Deshaun Watson's facing all these civil lawsuits. I don't care that he hasn't played in a year and a half, is going to get suspended. I just want to get to the super
Bowl and maybe he'll get us there. And of course then you get yourself back if you think about it, Hugh, whether we're talking about finances or relationships or you're running a company, when you get desperate is when you make your biggest mistakes. You know, the classic overreach. But I get the feeling like you have, and I mean, I'm your same age on seventy I do remember listening to the Browns in the championship game in nineteen sixty four
in my friend's basement. By the way, think about this. That game NFL Championship game nineteen sixty four was blacked out in Cleveland, right, model had the option of showing it or not. For whatever reason, he was afraid they wouldn't sell enough tickets, so he blacked it out and they were shown the next following evening on TV. Now people were I think, if you're outside of fifty miles
outside of Cleveland, it was on. So people were like driving to probably around your hometown of Warren and Erie, Pennsylvania and Columbus, running motel rooms to wash this game because it's sold.
Rabbit ears on the television each week to try and pick up a Pittsburgh station.
Yeah, that was it. Think about that.
There's your chance, there's your memory if you're a Cleveland fan of the last time the Browns went to the final two to a championship, which is pre Super Bowl, just the championship game.
Well, I think what you got to do is fabulous, and I like the fact that your listeners express appreciation for you and Dave and the depth you go into. Now, I wanted to ask you a question about bosses because there's a guy who works over at Fox.
I work at Fox a lot.
And his son wants to be a sports journalist, and I said, well, make sure you find out a are there any jobs, what are they paying be? Pick a good boss, because if you have a bad boss, it's going to be a horrible environment no matter what you got. It's always the same advice I give to young people. Always pick a boss. So I'm going to give you a second to think about that here and then come back and tell me the best boss you worked for
and why. Because you've worked for in major from Earl Weaver to Kevin Stefanski, I don't know if you can have two different types of people you got to interview, and then your boss is above you looking at your work, whether it's Dave Campbell or Chuck Heaton or any of these other great legends of Cleveland sports. I'll come back with Terry Pluto. Go over to Terry Pluto dot com if you want to pick up why can't this team find a quarterback.
It's a great new book, and you're gonna.
Get a gift card for Christmas, and I would recommend, especially if you're a football fan, that would be a good one. Chuck tied a blessed memory here on the show, and maybe I'll be back someday and we'll talk to sports. Swears by Loose Balls as one of the greatest georks books he's ever ever read.
In Chuck Knows Sports.
Even if we disagree on how any politics, don't go anywhere America.
I'll be right back.
Welcome back to America to you, and on Christmas Eve, and I'm giving myself a Christmas present. A few minutes of conversation with Terry Pluto. You can follow on Exit Terry Pluto. Listen to his podcast once a week with Dave Campbell talking Terry's Talking Terry bosses. In the world of sports, it's been the best, and you don't need to name the worst already. You already named the man who must not be named on my show for twenty five years, I've never named the man who must not
be named. He took the Browns out of Cleveland. But who's been the best in what makes for a terrible boss.
Well in terms of coaches or managers, because there's two different things that those guys are not my boss. Those are people uncovering, but it's you can learn a lot both ways for how they coach or handle the team. Probably the best overall was Terry frank Count I thought
was terrific. He was a combination of knowing how to keep things together when it feels like they're all flying apart, to knowing how to do tough well generally it was in private, to being a storyteller and almost like kind of when the team's going bad, having some kind of parables to give or something to the media to buy his team at players time, and just a general feeling that this is a guy that is sincere when he was talking about players who had been cut or whatever,
and I really liked covering him. Earl Weaver was covering kind of this eccentric genius and when it came to sports, I mean, he's the man who invented the batting averages of pictures and hitters when they can face each other. Until Earl Weaver came along, he was all just well right handed pictures versus left handed, you know, righty's versus lefties.
That whole thing.
Well, he began to realize he wuld see weird things like a guy like Mark Blandrew, who was not a very good hit or whatsoever, was facing Noan Ryan, one of the greatest pictures at that time, and he knew going to Hall of Fame, and for some reason Bilandrew was able to hit him. It made no sense. So he had a couple of their interns in the PR department start going through looking at things like that, different batting averages, and and he suddenly found all these trends which are
now just given. When you watch a baseball game, they'll tell you know who the how they match up.
And that was plus minus that you guys did on the Cavs. That's a new stat that actually makes sense to me. Plus minus. I just never even thought about it before.
Right, if you have five guys playing at one time, you could sometimes see how a certain player you know, makes more of an impact than others. And also it could tell you could break it down even further. Of all, right, these four play together, well, well, when that fifth guys with them, they don't. But if you put them with the three other guys. It can get complicated, but in general, some players simply lend more to winning than others. Not
because they're so gifted athletic. Is they fit in combination with the other guys that are out there, and those are Earl Weaver, by the way, today, we'd go crazy with all the stats available. He probably would overthink everything because he was how about you know, we everything on computers and everything now, Hugh, when Earl Weaver had those batting averages of pitchers versus hitters, and that he kept them on index cards and a cigar box and his death.
Ronald Reagan giving a speech, So, Terry Planal, would you recommend we got like two minutes in this that would you recommend to a young person that they go into sports journalism? Now, I have lots of guardrails for people who want to do political journalism because it's it's kind of combative, and I don't think everyone's cut out for it.
What about sports.
Journalism if you want to do it, But I would recommend you, you know, if you're in school, these people just get a whether it's a sports management degree or mass media degree, get a secondary degree and marketing or whatever I mean. I Actually the reason I went and got a degree in social studies and secondary education because I thought I might not cut it as a writer. I got to go get a job because there's so few think about this. I've been I'm seventy years old.
I've been a sports columnist. You know, it's harder to get my job than it's going to be to playing the major leagues because.
You get in the conference.
Yeah yeah, or yeah exactly absolutely, or if he's the I want to be the I want to do the Cleveland Guardians game. So Tom Hamilton's going to Hall of Fame. He's my age, he's seventy and he's been doing it since nineteen ninety and his partner, Jim Rowsenhouse is I'm twenty years together.
And that's amazing.
In fact, it's amazing that Mary Kay Cabot and Paul Wayns and Tom Hamilton. You've worked with three Hall of famers. I don't know if herbscore made it and he should have. Did herbscore make it in as a broadcaster?
Oh he didn't. But Sheldon Oker from the Beacon Journal of yaftball writer. So when I was a baseball writer in Cleveland, I had one Hall of Famer and wings to my left and the other in Ochre to my right, and neither of it rubbed off on me. But that's really good.
It's no pressure.
Yeah, his brand new book, Don't Go Anywhere. I got one more segment is brand new book is why can't this team find a quarterback?
It's hilarious.
Don't go Anywhere, America.
I'm new to it.
Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewett. Terry Pluto, my favorite sports writer, is joining me. And one of the things I like about Terry, and he doesn't make a big deal about it, but almost inevitably, character enters into his conversation about people on the field. And he's been impressed with Shador Sanders in the way he has handled this season. He's been impressed with Dylan Gabriel. He's disappointed by clause, but character always comes to the top here. So Terry
final segment. This is just purely indulging myself. I think Shador could be at least a top fifteen quarterback. When Dave laid out Carnal Tait and take as many offensive linemen as you need or sign, I thought that might be the best way for this club to go and you I think you kind of agreed with him, didn't you stick.
With Yeah, I would be willing to look at that. I would bring in a veteran behind him just in case, just have somebody there. I don't like having two rookies or two guys going their second year, as you're only quarterbacks, but sure I would look at that. Yeah, Sanders surprised me because with all the you know, yes, over two million social media followers and all the hype there, I kind of thought he would be a real jerk, and he's not. You could tell he's been in the public
eye for quite a bit. But there's this genuine uh. And I've used genuine three or four times to you in this conversation because that goes to character. But about a week ago, he's being asked something about Stefanski and basically is a question to design for in the second guest as coach, and he smiles and goes, now, you're not trying to get me into trouble here?
Are you going to do that?
I mean, it was confusing it.
You just mentioned Kevin Sevanski. I love the guy. UH get boring. Press conferences are us, but uh, I want I don't want to change his system. Ony young quarterback again and he's been coaching the year twice and you said he looked tired. Wouldn't you run it back one more time and let him have one quarterback for two years with maybe two receivers that can catch the ball that split wide, just one chance to run it back with one guy.
Well, I mean he's in a sixth year, Hugh. And sometimes what happens in pro sports, I've seen you could be very good at your job and be a place for just a long time. Anyone will tell you when you're coaching the Browns, it's not like it's generally the worst job in the NFL. And the total takes on
you emotionally and everything else. And a lot of times what I've seen with coaches and managers is they whether whether they go become an assistant coach somewhere or they do some media for a year, sometimes they just need to air out that's too bad. In politics, by the way, they don't do that. You know, see there's a post that you know they're they're imposed of verticals and pro sports. But you get fired and then you come back with something else. And I really I've watched Kevin. He's drained.
He's utterly drained, now can he So it's a question of where he is there. I would have long talks with kind of where are you in your life? How do you feel about things? It's well beyond quarterbacks and what kind of offense do you want to run?
Yeah, well urban Meyer was per think against that team up north, and he still threw it in after seven years. Because really there's a lot of life besides working twenty three hours a day, eleven months a year and then being recruiting terry. But all said and done, you've had a blessed career, haven't you. I mean, you've been doing this since year what twenty two, twenty three?
Yeah, I mean really, I think my first byline a Cleveland paper was in nineteen seventy five, the Cleveland Press, so that's fifty years and I I was like twenty. I did some high school sports from them part time and answered the phone, and also to do it at my hometown. The job I have now were being the sports columnist. The playing dealer kind of was the hell level. Witz was that job for decades and it was a job that I wanted and I'm able to keep doing it.
And I have a great boss and Chris Quinn and Dave Campbell there that allowed me to I have don't have to chase all these teams all over the com tree. You know, my travel is minimal and it still means a lot. And I love the fact that Hugh. I love the fact that sports is much better than politics because in politics you could say something everybody runs into their red state blue state thing. But all right, you bring up we bring up Shador Sanders or Kevin Stefanski.
The opinions that come in I don't think are based on like how you voted or one of vot It's like like the guy right, you know, it's actually more rational.
It's hard.
It's a strange world, and sports is more rational than real life at times.
It is.
And you know, when I hear that the Dolans are cheap, I get mad. I think the Hasms have grown as owners. I think Dan Gilbert is a gift to Cleveland. We are blessed to actually have we are sports rich. And then we got the Buckeyes down the road, and we have a great You have a great group of colleagues and they're all working around the clock. Turning out product. I don't know if they work harder anywhere in the Mayora then for Cleveland dot Com. They're working all the time.
Well, welcome to the Internet age. When that kicked in, all of a sudden, we realized the Associated press used to be you're always on deadline. Now, anybody at any
of these markets, you're always on deadline. And when something happens, even if a columnist like I am with an opinion, they'd like something within a half hour and forty five minutes, and please get it in within an hour of happy it happening, And we're before it's like, okay, it could happen in the afternoon, it won't be until tomorrow's paper.
Well, have a merry Christmas. And I have one suggestion for you on your next book, because you can not not write. So you want to be a sports journalist, because I have no advice for kids about because I've been able to tell them about being a political journalist, but I have no advice on so you want to be a sports journalist. And you probably could write that book in your sleep on the ups and downs, the ins and outs, and why you don't want to do this sport of that part.
But you come to our mall. You don't do much Ohio State, do you?
I'll do so not too much. One thing I would say, whether it's broadcasting or this, people say, well, I want to be a sports writer or sports journalist because I love sports. That's not the best answer. The mist answer is like, if you're a sports writer, you better love to write, and you you know this. Even if you're going to be a political broadcaster, Yeah, politics is important, but you better be very good at broadcasting. And a lot of people miss that.
Yeah, there is a talent.
Joe Tate, the Immortal, Joe Tate, the Absolute and GiB Shanley. I mean, we're all blessed up there, Terry, Merry Christmas, and everybody else deserves a fetching Missus Hewett and a Roberta Pluto in their lives as well. We're both blessed in that department as well. Merry Christmas, Terry Pluto. Talk to you in twenty twenty six at some point at the Browns march to the Super Bowl, the Guardians of the World Series and the Cavaliers to the final of the NBA.
That's my wish for the new year.
Take care Terry Puto follow him on brand new book is why can't this team find a quarterback? Welcome back in America. I'm Hugh Hewittt. I'm reminding everyone Angel Tree is underway. We only have a couple of weeks left to get as many presents to as many children who have a parent in prison as possible. Angel Tree is sponsored by Prison and Fellowship. We welcome on the show every year because they're so good at what they do, which is bring Christmas to children who have mom and
or dad in prison. They find a present that the child wants, they buy it, they get it to the kid, along with a note from mom or dad, a Bible, and a connection to a ministry that could change their life. Really, the best thirty dollars you can spend, best sixty dollars or ninety. It takes about thirty dollars to take care of the present, the Bible, the visit, all that stuff. It's one of the most effective ministries in America. Please
be as generous as possible. Head over to Hughewett dot com and find at the top of the website the banner for Angel Tree. Or you can call Triple eight two oh six twenty seven sixty four, Triple A two oh six twenty seven sixty four Christmas shopping time. Are you feeling a little bit pinched? Well, if you make a switch to Consumer Cellular, you may add some stretch to your budget. Consumer Cellular dot Com slash Hugh one eight hundred four to one one forty four fifty four.
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But if you call one eight hundred four to one one forty four fifty four and mention Q, you get that second month free. And here's something my listeners who are fifth and older will love. Two unlimited lines of data two for just sixty dollars. That's only thirty dollars per line. Unlimited data. It's an easy way to manage your costs of living. It is the best deal out there called one eight hundred and four one fifty four. Be sure to use my promo code. Hugh, Laura and
even Grace America. Merry Christmas Eve to you. More than twenty years ago, I did a show with my next guest, doctor Mark Roberts. Doctor Mark Roberts is a senior Fellow at the DePree Center at the Fuller Seminary, the author of nine different books, hundreds of articles over thirty five hundred devotions, as the chief writer at Life for Leaders, his daily study devotional at the Depre Center. These days, Mark is helping people my age and the third third
of life flourish. You can learn more at dupre dot org. Uh Mark Roberts, welcome back. We did this originally in two thousand and four, and then the malware guys came in and took it hostage, so we're redoing it again for Christmas Eve.
Have you kept up with Scrooge.
In over those two decades?
Well, in fact, I have. I probably listened to two or three recorded versions of the Christmas Carol. I've watched many film versions, including one yesterday. I've seen it performed on stage, and I read a Christmas Carol every year, so I've added more than twenty readings since we last did our show together. Why you re read it every year? That's amazing, you know it is, And partly you can get away with it because it's it's short of If I told you, oh, I read David Copperfield every year,
you'd say, where do you find that? It's it's a quick read. I read it because I love this book. I love its story, I love the character, I love the language. The more I read it, the more I just find Dickens's language just delightful. A lots of humor in this book, including some suspense, and you might even almost say orror. The book has exceptional moral clarity, and I appreciate that in a day like this, in a
strong encouragement. But most of all, what I find deeply moving is the story of a human life transformed, of a man who was alone and caught up in himself and had no love for anyone to a man who was a kind and generous, and it was a transformed man, and I love that story.
In the second twenty five years of the New trillennium or the New millennium. I gotta ask you a little background please on this story for people who are driving around or watching on YouTube who don't even know what the Christmas Carol is because they exist, or at best they've seen them up.
At version yeah yeah, or maybe in this day Jim Carrey's version, which is fascinating. That's another story. Well, you know, it's the story of the writing of a Christmas Carol is itself a story in fact, actually is a movie that Dan Stevens was in called The Man Who Invented Christmas. They kind of tell the story of Dickens. So basically, this book was published in December of eighteen forty three in London. And let me say something about the broader
cultural context and then Dickens's own context. So England and that time was in the midst of the Industrial Revolution, great Or moved to urbanization. There were major extremes of wealth and poverty. At that time. The working conditions for even just average workers, not to mention lower class workers were really quite oppressive and awful, often working ten and
twelve hours a day in really terrible conditions. There was a lot of suffering of children who were just not being taken care of well, while not at that point being well educated by and large, especially the lower class. And interestingly enough, Christmas really was not a thing then. In fact, there'd been history in England of celebrating Christmas more like people in some cities celebrate Halloween today, I mean with all kinds of pranks and rowdiness and even
illegality and different things. Historically, so there was this sort of negative sense of Christmas, and so many well most proper people, but many Christians ignored it, and actually some Christians in that day really rejected and criticized it. In fact, in the colonies, in Massachusetts in the sixteen hundreds, for a while, it was illegal to celebrate Christmas and if you celebrated it, you get in trouble.
So you have the Puritans were not fun loving people.
Not by at large, and so basically Christmas was this minor holiday at moment, okay, and not something that most posts gave him U s thought to that's Christmas. Now here's Dickens the context. In forty three, he was an acclaimed author, but he was facing financial challenges. His last
book had sold well. He had three children who were alive he'd lost a couple his books were also being pirated by many in that day and sold, and so he was very concerned about his own personal livelihood, but also because he grew up in considerable poverty and that was a really bad way to grow up in that day,
and so he was worrying about this for himself. In October of eighteen forty three, he made a trip to Manchester where in fact visited his sister fan like in the book, who had a child who is quite ill like Tiny Tim interestingly, but he visited her to speak at an organization in Manchester that it really helps educate lower class people. In that trip he observed children in just terrible distress, poverty and depression, and he wanted to
make some kind of difference. And now he wanted to sell some books for his own well being and for his family, but what he really wanted to do was make some sort of cultural change through writing a book that might do that. And an idea came to him for this short novel about Christmas that would encourage people of means to care for and to support and be generous with the poor, and especially to care about children. So that was kind of a setup I want to underscore.
He worked in a blacking factory and ink factory. He was in debtors prison. He knows of what he writes when he writes about poverty. And do you have any idea where he got the idea where a Christmas Carol from?
Well, what's fascinating is in the Pickwick Papers, which had been written about seven years before a Christmas Carol. There was a short story in there called the Goblins who Stole a Sexton. A sexton is like the church stodian, okay, And the sexton is a man named Gabriel Grubb. He's a grumpy, lonely old man all by himself who hates
children and Christmas. But on Christmas Eve some goblins come after he's had something to drink, and they steal him, and they steal him away, and they take him to a cavern where they show him all kinds of visions of poor people suffering, but also visions of the poor celebrating. And also the goblins beat him up many times, and out of this Grub has a change of heart. He
becomes cheerful and the lover of Christmas. But he is so embarrassed about this change in his life that rather than look a fool to his neighbors, he actually disappears for a long long time and hides because he doesn't want to expose the change of heart. So when you when you hear that story, you say, oh, that sounds kind of like Scrooge, but not quite. But it was sort of the you know how fine painters will have chalk drawings of their painting before they actually do the painting.
This is kind of the chalk drawing of a Christmas Carol seven years before. That was kind of that core story. But then, of course what Dickens does with it with Scrooge is very very different.
So you said, October of eighteen forty three, So how did he what did he do?
That's a deadline, deadline if he's going to make Christmas. Yes, So he started working on it in October eighteen forty three and he worked feverishly, moved back to London. He talks in his letters of walking fifteen to twenty miles a day around London, thinking and thinking, and then he's writing. He's deeply engaged. He describes himself as writing almost around the clock, sometimes laughing, sometimes weeping. He is completely engaged in this and he finishes it in late November eighteen
forty three. Now keep that dat in mind. His publisher, interestingly, is not enthusiastic who had the book. They think it's not going to do very well, so they will publish it, but they're not going to put any money in it. So Dickens actually paid for the editing, the art, the printing of this book. He paid and was therefore eligible for getting better income if it's sold. And so he finishes it in November eighteen forty three and the book hits the stores on December nineteenth. Now, you and I've
written books. It's you want it like eighteen months in advance and it takes forever. Number this was a turnaround of less than three weeks. Amazing, it's a miracle.
Now, our late mutual friend, doctor David Allen White, who passed away this year, I did a three hour especial with him on Dickens because of his command of the language. Do you share that love of Dickens's command of the language.
Oh, you know, yes, it's it's really amazing. And you know, and these days you have to look some things up, and there are ways to do that so you can know all the words. But look, we've got a minute at a break. So yeah, example, the most obvious thing. Yeah, the name Ebenezer Scrooge actually has meaning. So Scrooge actually was an Old English verb that means to squeeze or
to press something. And there's this this description leader of Scrooge, of a squeezing, wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching, cove at as old sinner. So Scrooge, it's a squeezer. Ebenezer is a biblical word. It means help, stone, stone of help. It's a memorial. And so you have in the name Ebenezer Scrooge, on the one hand, the description of where he began, and a memorial for us of what happened in its life.
More coming up on a Christmas carol. On this Christmas Eve, don't go anywhere America, Doctor Mark Roberts will be right back.
Welcome back to America.
I'm here here.
I can almost always get an answer from someone when I ask who their favorite Scrooge is minus George she Scott and their favorite scene and mine is when he throws the window open and sees the boy below. It's about a change level. Mark, what is the draw of a transformed life. Why do people love that so much?
Well, you know, as I mentioned, there are many reasons to love a Christmas Carold, but mostly what really grabs us and keeps us reading in my case is this story of this transformation that e Benezer Scrooge goes from what I just said, this squeezing man who squeezed his money to hold on to it and really squeezed his own heart and soul, and just was this squeezed, bound up old man. And by the end he is a warm and happy and laughing, caring, generous and good person.
In fact, the goodness has emphasized it again a great Dickens line. He describes Scrooge as a good as good a friend, as good master, as good a man as the good old city New or an ill any other good old city town or borough in the good old world. It's just that's great, a lot of goods. But how did this happen? You know, how did Scrooge change? Well, the most obvious thing is he got some supernatural help, in this case, not from God necessarily, but from the
spirits who visited him. He didn't just change all by himself. That's sort of number one. Number two, there was this profound interruption of his ordinary experience. And you know, in general, when we when we go through certain kinds of transformations, it's usually because we've experienced something unusual, something that isn't ordinary and obvious. One would be when you get married. That's a big change in your life, and it can
lead to transformation in my season of life. It could be the you and I you of recent one of our good friends just recently lost his spouse and that's a huge change interruption. Okay. Number three the influence of nostalgia. Now, when Scrooge is taken back in time by the spirit of Christmas past, he has his profound nostalgic experience of what it was like when he was young. And you say, well, that's interesting. What difference does it make. Actually, psychologists study this.
There's a group actually the University of Southampton in England that studies the impact of nostalgia on people and especially over people, and it actually does things like opens our hearts and softens us and does these things. So nostalgia's part of it. Okay, Dickens must have known this, he didn't know the science. It wasn't around yet. Number four
there is experience of pain in transformation. For Scrooge, he had pain in his life prior, but it's reexperiencing that pain, the rejection he had felt by his father, the loss of friends. These hard things he had to reexperience them again and the pain of them in order for again for his heart to be tenderized and open up to the possibility of healing. Now there's a couple of other things really important. Many times Scrooge, in as he goes back and in the present, he is exposed to children
who are suffering, including himself. The first time he really evidences some kind of empathy in this book, it's when he's looking at his own little boy, left alone at school at Christmas, not going home, and he feels sympathy. Okay, later in a letter he wrote to a friend and he said, certainly, there is nothing more touching than the suffering of a child, nothing more overwhelming. And so in this story, and tiny Tim is the most obvious example.
As Scrooge pays attention to the suffering of children, his heart is moved, his heart is opened up, and then to the six point, he begins to see with new eyes. He sees what life is about with new eyes. He sees himself with new eyes, he sees the purpose of his living with new ISSI he has had a transformed in vision. And the last thing I would say about this is he experiences this by grace, that he has an experience of grace.
Okay, we have non Christian listeners, so let's explain grace to them.
What do you mean by grace? Well, I'll explain grace and then talk about where you see it. So grace is unmerited favor, unmerited kindness. I mean for Christians, we talk of course about the grace of God, God's unmerited kindness. But you can show grace person to person too, simply giving to somebody something that they don't deserve, or a kindness that was not earned. And Dickens, by the way, was not a Christian per se, He was a fist.
He was influenced by Christian faith. He had many fine things to say about Jesus, actually even in a Christmas carol. But just to say, however, he knew about grace. You said, well, where's grace? First and foremost the visit of his nephew Fred. Fred knows that he's not going to get be treated kindly by Scrooge, but he doesn't care. He shows him love,
he invites him over. Then there's the grace of Jacob Marley, his former partner, who comes as a spirit, and somehow Jacob Marley is a this opportunity for Scrooge to be transformed, just out of grace. Bob Cratchit toasts, even though Scrooge a terrible boss, Bob Cratchit toasts Scrooge in a kind way. And their Christmas dinner, and then once again you have Fred showing up in and it hit this dinner. He
wishes Scrooge to marry Christmas. He drinks a toast to him, and again it's nothing that Scrooge deserved to earn, but Scrooge is now observing it. And so he's experiencing grace people being kind to him, and that has a way of opening our hearts.
And you just read it yesterday and I can't remember it. But didn't he reject grace originally when Fred came to see him, Oh yeah, oh yeah, humbug right, and the guys who wanted him to make a subscription, he got like the opposite of grace.
Well true, he was not interested at first, but as the spirits work on his heart and as he experiences all the things that lead to transformation, eventually he is able to receive the good gifts that are being given to him and open his heart to them. And so again, though it's not a Christian novel, it's actually a marvelous illustration of how grace and his unmerited kindness can actually make a difference in people's lives.
By the way, when you reread this every year, do you notice something new every time?
Always? Always? And it's kind of funny you because sometimes I'll be reading a lot and I'll think, wait, was that always in there? And the thing I was noting yesterday was just how many different versions of mulled wine show up in this book. I think they're like six different kinds of mold wine, smoking Bishop and Negus and all this, And these are the things you see when you've read the thing like thirty times.
Well, you have reference to me and annotated Dickens. Did they annotate all of Dickens or just a Christmas Carol?
Well, I don't know that was Dickens would be an overwhelming challenge, But there is an annotated and you can find it on Amazon book and what's wonderful, it's got the text, but then it has all kinds of footnotes. This is what this means. This is what this means. This is what this means, and it's very helpful for those of us who want to know the story a little more deeply.
All right, don't go anywhere, America. I'm coming right back with doctor Mark Roberts. Has been my friend forever. And doctor Roberts was a year behind me at Harvard. He got his PhD from Harvard. He was in the pulpit, he taught down at the Laity Lodge. He's been at the Fuller Seminary as the senior Fellow of the next Dupree Center for Leadership for many many years.
You can find out more at Dupre dot org.
And of course we'll post this over at YouTube so you can send it to your friends who are perhaps not as jovial and grateful as they should be on a Christmas even America in this millennium, don't go anywhere America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Welcome back in America. I'm Hugh hewittt with doctor Mark Roberts, revisiting revising a traditionally we did back in two thousand and four, twenty plus years ago, Doctor Roberts and I did this show and it was lost to malware, to a ransomware attack.
But we're just redoing it.
It's a revival like on Broadway, Doctor Roberts, what evidence do we have that the grace, the unmerited grace that Scrooge received actually changing them?
Well, great question. So early it on, before the last Stave, which is the last chapter, when he's transformed, he talks about he's described by as being overcome with penitence and grief because of who he had been. He says, to the spirit of the Christmas future, I hope to live to be another man from what I was. I'm not the man I was. I will I will be the man. I will be a different kind of man basically. But you say, okay, a lot of times people talk of
that way. So what evidence is there. Well, when you get to Stay five, the last stay of the last chapter, first of all, just you see Scrooge's utter joy, freedom and celebration that begins to come out early. But he is utterly happy, and he is very childlike. In fact, he describes himself he says, I'm as long as a feather, I'm as happy as an angel, I'm as marry as a schoolboy, I'm as giddy as a drunk man. He says, I don't know anything. I'm quite a baby. Never mind,
I don't care. I'd rather be a baby. So there's this childlike freedom. Also, he's laughing all the time, and the narrator says, really, for a man who had been out of practice for so many years, it was a splendid laugh, a most illustrious laugh, the father of a long, long line of brilliant laughs. Later, the narrator says that some folks laughed at Scrooge because of his change, but he didn't care. Says his own heart laughed and that was quite enough for him. So you have this joy, freedom,
laughter as evidence of a change. Heard. You certainly have a new way of seeing. He sees himself differently, he sees Christmas differently, he sees what it is to be a boss differently, he sees his life differently. He has learned lessons, so it's not just an emotional thing. It's a new learning, a new way of seeing.
Yeah, and I want to inject here, as I said George Scott's My Fingavit Scrooge and the News. Scrooge comes to find the men who had asked him for a subscription, and he added the famous line, are there no workhouses?
Are there no orphanages? And he runs into them.
They're almost physically afraid of him, and then he just lets Kyle, yes they are.
And in fact, when he tells the man working for him, Bob Cratchitt, that he's going to raise his salary, Bob Cratchitt is worried too, and the narrator says, he grabs a ruler as if to hit him. So this is a real change. And there you just mentioned. He has a new way of relating to people. He relates as a boss differently, he relates as an uncle differently, He
greets people on the street. One of my favorite things in the Kurst chapter says that the dogs that lead blind people, when they saw Scrooge coming, they would hide and take their person away, And that's in some of the movies. But then at the end, I mean, he loves animal. He's just he is. He relates differently, and he also that means things like he's going to treat his employee more justly and pay a decent wage and that sort of thing.
But he's generous, and Marley, of course, was the opposite of generous. He is weighed down by his greed, his lock boxes of money, and he won't. I think the generosity is a counterpoint to the first ghost.
Well, that is number one for Dickens, because in a way he wrote this to help people who of means be generous with those in need. And so the clearest evidence for Dickens of real change is generosity. So how do we know that? He sends a giant turkey to the Cratchett family, doesn't even let them know who it comes from. These the portly gentleman from the first chapter that he completely turned down. He we don't know what
the mount is. He whispers in one of their ears what he wants to do, and the guy is blown away by how generous the Scrooge is. Later on, he cares for the Cratchit family, He raises Bob salary, He assists his struggling family. That's a quote. He helps Tiny Tim, who would have died but for Scrooge's I'm sure his finances for medical care. His intervention, Tiny Tim does not die and the narrator says he became as good a friend, a good a master, a good a man as the good old city knew.
And that thirty seconds. How did it sell? I'm always interested in how did it sell?
Yes, well, it sold six thousand copies made available on December nineteenth. Everyone sold out by December twenty second. That was the beginning. We can talk more in the next section. But that's a good start for a book, don't you think you Oh no internet? Yeah, no internet? It either in the modern time.
Five thousand copies is a big breakthrough, much less in that few days. Don't go anywhere, Doctor arbit will be right back to Welcome back, America. I hope you're enjoying Christmas Eve. It is really raining in California. Who knows what the weather is wherever you are, but wherever you are,
a merry Christmas Eve to you. Doctor Mark Roberts a fuller theological seminary in the do pre centers joined me, reviving something we did originally in two thousand and four, which is to tap into doctor roberts immense love for and knowledge of a Christmas Carol by Charles Dickon. So it's sold all the six thousand copies. Dr roberts right away, what's its impact over the two plus centuries it's been out? I get not quite two centuries.
Well, I mean, if you just looked at sales just an idea, they're not sure. The people study that aren't sure how many have actually sold, but it's somewhere. They say between twenty million and two hundred million. So for those of the great writers, I'd be happy with the low numbers. But what did it do to dis Well, Ok, he didn't get filthy rich on the thing, but he did get steady income. And actually it helped grow his influence because he went all around and would do readings
of the whole thing. You go and you hear Dickens read take about three hours, and he would read the manuscript and so it certainly supported his career. But perhaps more interesting, you wondered if he wrote this to try and help the poor. Didn't make any difference, And historians have worked on this. I'm not a story that I read historians and it's fascinating and didn't make a difference. Well, first,
there's it's kind of a yes to note. So I'll start with a note, there's really no evidence that a Christmas Care led immediately to any of the change in laws that really were hurting the poor. There was at this time in Britain there were laws that were really meant to punish the poor because it was believed that they had sort of earned their place. It's hard for us to get that, but there were poor laws, and
there's no evidence that any of those laws were immediately changed. However, there is lots of evidence that it began to change minds and hearts in thinking about the poor, and many scholars have said what Dickens did was change sort of the worldview thinking about poverty in such a way that later it led to changing in laws and institutions to help the poor.
So I'll get the timing arm it. Lord Shaftesbury is running commissions on the poor at the time because the Industrial Revolution is really rough on people. People die in the streets, and many of his characters and his other novels die in doorsteps, poor and penniless. So he is not looking away from the roughness of the Industrial Revolution, but back to him and the impact of the book.
Any other evidence of what they did. They have a cultural impact.
Yes, I mean, so here's the thing. That many of us wouldn't realize. Several years ago, the London Sunday Telegraph had an article on Dickens called the Man who invented Christmas. You say, wait a minute, what does that mean? Well, I mentioned earlier that Christmas wasn't much of a holiday and it was not celebrated in ways we're familiar with
prior to Dickens. The historians of cultures say that actually a Christmas Carol significantly changed the way that people in the West, and especially England and the USA celebrate Christmas. For example, it is now a major holiday it used to be not. For example, it seemed now mostly as a one or two day celebration. In the Church, it was always a twelve day but Dickens shortened it number three. Christmas.
We think of Christmas ourselves as an occasion for gathering the family and close friends to eat food and have good times together. Before Christmas Carol, that really didn't happen. Turky is a big deal to be eaten at Christmas. In this book, before Christmas Carol, people did not eat turkey on Christmas. And again big point, Christmas is a time for being generous to the poor, even for those
who are not Christians. By the way, I think Dickens would love the Angel tree thing you're doing, because it's, yeah, sort of brings together care for the poor and for the incarcerated, and it's just it's a great Dickensian way to thing. But so this whole notion of generosity at Christmas really was hugely from Dickens's vision for it. And the last thing to say is that for him and his Scrooge's life, Christmas was a time for personal reflection
and growth, even transformation, and that too is new. So the greatest influence that Dickens had on culture was substantially raising the importance of Christmas, substantially changing the way we celebrated so much what we take utterly for granted today was actually something that Dickens himself kind of invented or or took from small pieces of the culture and promoted and made popular.
Can we also make an argument that maybe he made nostalgia for childhood Christmas. Thing Like a Christmas Story is a favorite movie for many people because it's the old Nostalgia for Christmases of childhood is a big deal, and it's also, unfortunately a point of sorrow for some people.
Right, you know, certainly could have been. And by the way, on the Sorrow, Dickens himself talked about the fact that, not in the book, but in some of his letters that in the context of Christmas, we remember our loved ones who have passed on, and so there is this element of sadness in the remembrance as well as this nostalgia delighting in our experiences of Christmas as we are young and sort of reliving them. So and I think what Dickens portray certainly has encouraged that kind of behavior.
And the psychologists would say, if you don't get stuck in the past, but if you sort of relive the past, it actually is a good thing for your brain and for your body. Random question.
I grew up Catholic going to the midnight Mass, and many people still do. I don't do that anymore. I'll make I think eight o'clock services tonight. Did the Anglican Church adopt a midnight Mass? Was midnight Mass a thing before Dickens?
You know, I am not sure of that on the Anglicans. You know, the Catholics have been pretty faithful with that sort of thing for like centuries and centuries, but I don't know if the Anglicans did or not. I mean, what I do know is that Dickens's influence helped sort of to bring together the religious celebration of Christmas and the birth of Jesus and some of the secular things that previously had been and the perceived an experienced as being very sort of opposed.
Okay, don't go anywhere, America. I'll be right back with doctor Mark Roberts. If you want, we will have this uploaded tonight over at my YouTube channel, so you can send it to your friends and loved ones who perhaps don't know much about Christmas Carol and inspire them to go out and get it. You can even give them what Mark Stolis. You can read it in three hours out loud if you're a good reader.
Don't go anywhere.
I'll be right back with doctor Mark Roberts of the Decree Center at Fuller Theological Seminary. Stay tuned, and I'm Merry Christmas Eve to all of you, and to Harley and to Adam and of course General Lisimo, everyone who listens to the program. To Danielle and Diana and make it work behind the scenes. Everyone at Salem. Doctor Mark Roberts is my guest. I have an off the wall question, which is we did this first in two thousand and four,
more than two decades later. We're different people, lots of different life experiences for both of us in that period of time.
How's it?
Have you changed your under standing of it and of the story it tells?
Well? I think two. I would say two things, and one is you and I are both older, and I am much more aware now than I was at the time of the opportunity and challenges for older adults to live flourishing lives that make a difference in this world. And I'm actually in my work at the de Precenter and at Fuller, I'm really focusing on what we call the third third of life. From that perspective, there are many things in a Christmas carol that are significant for
older adults who want to florist. For example, we mentioned already the power of nostalgia, and there's a lot of research on that that it's not necessarily bad to go back and remember your past, as long as you let that inform who you are today. Dickens emphasizes the importance of relationships versus isolations. Screw it had been isolated, he
becomes relationships. The Harvard Study of Human Development says the most important, the most important thing if you want to flourish as you get older, are your relationships, especially intergenerational relationships like Scrooge and I need Tim. There's lots of evidence on the value of play and celebration for older adults,
and that helps them to flourish. But and this is where it really gets important, the importance of some kind of purpose beyond yourself, So not just getting rich as the early Scrooge, but a purpose of helping and serving people living beyond yourself in retirement. And that also a generosity is central to that. And many of us who are older, of course, we're looking at our finances and trying to figure out how we're going to do in the next you know, how many years, could be twenty
or more. But there's an opportunity often for us to be generous. And you know, and again the Angel Tree thing great example. Your other posts on the radio have other kinds of opportunities, and so if so we can take kind of the life of Scrooge and this story and say, one of the things we learn is the what we can do if we want to live well as we get older, and yet those lessons are as
relevant to people who are younger as older. And so maybe the great lesson of this little story is that when our hearts are transformed, we live to serve others. We live for the sake of others. It's not just about ourselves, what we accumulate, or our knowledge, or our even our own happiness. We live to be generous, we live to give, we live to invest our lives in others. And that's a lesson that's great for Christmas, for sure, but for.
Any absolutely, And I want to tell our audience tomorrow on Christmas Day, I'm not live. We have nt right a Bishop bright on all of these radio stations, and then Kirch Schlicktor will be in for me after the following week. But thank you General Lisimo, thank you Adam and Harley, and a special thanks to my long and dear friend doctor Mark Roberts for prising our conversation from.
Two thousand and four lost to the ransomware people.
Merry Christmas, God, rest you all you marry gentlemen, enjoy and we'll talk again soon on a quick show in the future.