One of the biggest lessons I got out of Hoffman was that you don't have to say everything that you're thinking, that you can be in silence. Just because you have that thought, doesn't mean it needs to go anywhere. Or just because you're having this feeling, doesn't mean it needs to be shared. I would say I live by the Four Agreements. That's my 5th agreement. You know, keep your mouth shut. Welcome, everybody. My name is Drew Horning, and this podcast is called Love's Everyday Radius.
It's brought to you by the Hoffman Institute and its stories and anecdotes and people we interview about their life post process and how it lives in the world radiating love. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Hoffman podcast. Ariel Ford is with us. Welcome, Ariel. Thank you. Happy to be here. Oh, I'm so glad you're here. You and I have tried to have this conversation for a while, and some things happened. Before we go to that, I just wanna share a little bit with our listeners about
who you are. You are an author. You've written 12 books, including your debut novel, The Love Thief, and also the international bestseller, The Soulmate's Secret, manifest the love of your life with the law of attraction. You also actually have been dubbed the cupid of consciousness and the fairy godmother of love. Wow. Who wouldn't want those
names to be followed with you? You live in La Jolla with your husband, your soulmate, your best friend, Brian Hilliard, and your feline friends, www.arielford.com. Instagram are at Ariel Ford underscore author. Welcome to the Hoffman podcast, Ariel. Yes. Great to meet you, Drew. In our pre connection here, you shared a little bit about how the impact of COVID on you wasn't just physical, but you alluded to it being or it's still working on you. What happened?
Well, I was on a dream trip. I got hired to speak on a luxury cruise with the jazz musician, Dave Cause. Imagine a floating Four Seasons for 600 jazz lovers. And my job was to they flew me business class, they paid me, and all I needed to do was show up and speak for 1 hour about love.
And on the second day of the cruise, something really bad happened and I ended up in an ambulance And I was taken to the ICU at a hospital in Corsica, France, which is an island, which is a 9 hour ferry ride off of Nice. And I had pneumonia and COVID. So I had a lot of free time. I spent 9 days in the hospital. And while I was there, I had this crazy experience. I was never afraid. I was never in pain. I was never feeling like, oh my god, why me? I just was in this state of trust and surrender.
Even though this trip that I've been looking forward to for a year I mean, I didn't get to go to Sardinia or Sicily or the Amalfi Coast or all these great places I was supposed to go. I was wired up looking like a voodoo doll on oxygen. They told me I was gonna be there for a long time. Nobody spoke English. They were speaking French. So Siri became my new best friend. I was like, Siri, please ask the doctor blah blah blah, and then the doctor would not have said yes or no.
Anyway, I eventually got out. 9 days later, I got out and I my niece who's a flight attendant had flown over to take care of me. We went to this beautiful hotel and the next morning we went to the airport so I could go home. And there was a strike. There was an airline strike. And so we spent another 4 days in this charming little village, and my only job was to lie in bed and rest, and then get up and walk a few minutes to go to a really good restaurant, eat great food.
So when I got home, I realized that something in me had deeply changed and it wasn't just my lungs. I don't know what it was. And I decided I'm now in the middle of taking the rest of the year off and just waiting to see who am I, and what am I going to do, and what's next for me. Because I realized that I don't wanna do everything I've done in the past and this is common for me every 7 years or
so, I kinda change careers. So I'm in that space, I'm in the soup of what's next and I don't know, But I'm having a really good time because all I do is read books, listen to books, go for walks, I'm back at the gym, and eat good food. For a lot of people, I don't know. And what's next are hard places to be. But the question that's coming to me is, what makes it easier for you? What qualities are you embodying that have those potentially uncomfortable places to be holding it with such ease?
Because I've been here before and in the past, I was always in a panic. Oh my god. Who am I if I'm not blank? How am I going to survive if I don't have cash flow? Every time I've been in that space, and there were at least 3 major times when I was there, a, none of those were my fault that I got to that space, you know, we had a recession a couple of times. Right? There were things that occurred that were out of my control and I was just desperately miserable and depressed over the whole thing.
But what came out of that was life altering, life changing, and ultimately, the despair led to the best thing that ever could have happened. But I couldn't have manifested it because my imagination was never big enough to dream up the thing that came to me. So with that experience, I'm now 72. Okay? So with that experience, I know that I, a, I'm not supposed to know. B, if I keep creating the space for something to land in my lap, eventually it will come and it's going to exceed
any dream I've ever had. So I'm excited. And I can be in that space because the benefits of being as old as I am is that you learn to trust. You know, as you're talking, I'm reminded of this Michael Mead quote, which says, in losing the sense of the unseen, people have come to fear the unknown. In losing the sense of the unseen, people have come to eventually fear the unknown.
And so there's something about your trust in the unseen, your trust in the unknown will reveal something even bigger than what you could have imagined. Yeah. And I'm excited about it. And I think all those hours being in a dark hospital room, because often I was up in the middle of the night because I hadn't even gotten over jet lag when I ended up in the hospital. You know, I just kept imagining that I was floating in the sea of love and mercy and that I was protected and I was safe.
And even though I couldn't speak French, I knew that I was in a clean modern hospital with caring doctors and nurses and that there was nothing to worry about. Nothing like an intense sickness to disrupt thoughts and states and open up the possibility of something different. That's exciting. Yeah. It was kinda crazy. So that's what things are today and maybe if we talk again in 6 months, I'll have something to explain like, who I am and what I'm doing. In the meantime,
I'm just in a state of being. And I really believe that having done the Hoffman process created the safety net to do that because as you know, before you go to the process, they don't tell you shit. Right? You don't get to know anything. All you know is that, you know, you need to show up on this day at this time and then there's the long list of rules of all the things you're not going to do. I did break some of those rules and
I later regretted it. So if you haven't done it yet, follow the rules. But there was something in having done the process that gave me a sense of safety that I didn't have prior to doing it. So in this case, you're talking about safety. Part of what I hear in safety is that when things aren't going well, I'm gonna be okay. I'm gonna make it through this. I don't know the answer. Not sure where I'm going. How many years ago was that, Aria? I think I did it in 1991,
and I'm really bad at math. So it was maybe 30 something years ago. Wow. And you were just sharing before that you did it at Esalen. Yes. At the big house. The big house at Esalen. Yes. Which is a beautiful space. So I don't know where it's done for other people, but the big house, it's got the ocean view and, you know, you've got the baths there. Although, I don't remember we got to the baths much before midnight. There's some long hours back at the big house.
We have reduced the hours a little bit. We figured out that sleep is in fact important to wellness and mental health, and so people get, have the opportunity at least to get 8 plus hours. And we even track people's sleep as a way of supporting them having good experiences. But you also shared that you would go on reunions back to the big house, back to Esalyn for years after. We had 18 people in our group and we had 3 trainers and RAS was one
of them. Our group bonded so deeply that for at least 9 or 10 years, every year we would, as a collective, rent the big house and meet up for a weekend to reunite and catch up with each other. And sometimes we even hired some of the Hoffman trainers to come and facilitate. We weren't doing a process per se, but we had some guidance. And some of the people I remember one woman in particular had been severely physically abused by her father. Severely.
And out of doing the process, even while we were still together in the process, she was able to get to a point of forgiving him, and she brought her father to one of our reunions. And I believe her father later did the process as well. I'm I'm getting goosebumps just remembering this. To be able to see what's possible, you know, and what's survivable, and what healing is available, I mean, that's pretty radical. Yeah. It is. You talked about it being 10 years of good therapy in a week.
I always tell people if they tell me, you know, like, how did you get to be such a happy person? I said, well, I'll tell you but it's gonna cost you some time and money. Like, what is it? So it's the Hoffman process. It's like 20 years of excellent therapy condensed into 7 days of your life. Wow. And Raz is the founder of Hoffman International and husband of Liza, who's our president and CEO and still working and teaching.
Raz is doing great work. And, you know, we've hired lots of teachers as we've expanded over the last 5 years. I guess one way of looking at COVID is that it woke a lot of people up and sent a lot of people to Hoffman because people realized things weren't as good as maybe they thought they were or they were ready for change. So you have done since that time and before that time, you just have a a life committed to helping people learn about themselves, helping people love more powerfully?
Well, there's 2 kinds of people in the world. There's givers and takers. And I really consider myself one of the takers. So everything that I've done, I've done for me. And fortunately, lots of people tend to benefit when I do stuff for me, but that's always been my motivation. So I always laugh at people, oh, you you, you know, you wanna help so many people. That's not why I
get out of bed in the morning. I have friends that are what I call evolutionaries, and they bounce out of bed in the morning because they wanna heal the world and they wanna save other people. And I don't. I wake up in the morning and it's like, okay, what's in it for me? But it must work on some level because in figuring out what's in it for you, part of what you're saying is that other people benefit. Can you say more about that? I became a student of love deliberately a
few months after I got married. And I was a first time bride at 44. I was a real late bloomer. I found out very quickly that I had no partnership skills, That I had used law of attraction and hugs from Amma and other stuff like that to manifest my soulmate. But I didn't know what to do with them once I got them. The thing that I excelled at at that point in my life was being the boss. I was running a business. But I found out being the boss and being bossy with an alpha male doesn't work.
So I put myself on a path you know, that I had figured out how to manifest the soulmate, how do you keep the soulmate. Out of that came more books and more offers to teach workshops and stuff like that. Because at that point I was just sharing my experience because I'm a good student. So that's really it's been a progression. I'm there was never a day in my life where somebody took me by the shoulders and shook me at 25 and said, okay, Arielle, what do you wanna be when you grow up?
And I would have, like, I have no idea. I I have jobs, but I have no idea. And if somebody said, well, you're gonna become a famous love expert on how to find love, keep love, and be love, I would have been on the floor laughing historically. I just keep doing what the next thing is that evolves for me. And right now, I'm in the in the not knowingness of it, and it's just fine. I kinda no longer think I think love expert things in the rear view mirror. You know, it was a great ride. I
learned a lot. I shared a lot. But I'm ready for something new and I just don't know what that something new is yet. I love it. So you're trusting this next unfolding and excited for it and patient with it. Let's go back again and talk about your past a little bit because you had a a sister who passed. Can you talk a little bit about Debbie? Debbie was really the how I first heard about Hoffman process. She had been a drug addict, and she'd been through lots of rehabs.
And then after the rehab that worked, she ended up with a therapist, this was all in South Florida, who was either once a Hoffman trainer or very familiar with Hoffman and was working with her on that sort of stuff, and she would come out of her sessions. Oh my god. This was so great. We did this today. You really need to do the Hoffman process, she would say to me. You're so angry, and you don't know how angry you are. It's like, Debbie, stop telling me I'm angry. You're really pissing
me off. You know? And but that's how I first heard about it. And then I went through a long period where I was a book publicist for a lot of well known self help authors. I worked with Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer, Marianne Williamson, Louise Hay, and Joan Boursenko, and many, many others. Joan's on our advisory
board. Joan is the reason I actually did the process because one of her first books I was doing her book tour, we went out to dinner and, you know, she has a double PhD in biology and psychology and she taught at Harvard. I mean, she's got credentials that are mind blowing. And she started talking about how she had recently done this thing called the Hoffman Process and it was better than all the therapy she'd ever done. And I'm thinking to myself, this woman ever needed therapy?
What do you mean she needed therapy? Look at who she is. And in my head something turned and I was like, well, if this Hoffman process, my sister likes it and it's good enough for Joan Boursenko, I need to do it. So that's what catapulted me into doing the process. As you continued your journey from graduate of the Hoffman process, book publisher, book publicist, What evolved next for you in your ever evolving chapters of your life? Is that when you ended up writing?
Well, a couple things. I had been writing all along, because I was also a literary agent and a writer. So I had these multiple careers in publishing. Around 2,004, I really literally woke up one day and said I'm done with authors. I'm just done. Didn't wanna work with them anymore. After 911, it got really hard to get them on national TV because we were so busy talking about war and nobody wanted to talk about personal growth and so I quit
overnight. Over a weekend, I shut down all my businesses. Not anything a financial advisor would say is a good thing. And I didn't know what I was going to do, but my sister, Debbie, who had written a book called The Dark Side of the Light Chasers and was an expert in youngi and shadow work, invited me to go on a cruise with her and 200 of the poachers she had trained. Ah, these cruises again. When you're on a cruise, you're on water, which represents emotion, so
you get unplugged from physical reality. That's a whole other conversation. Anyway, Debbie said to me, come up on stage and I want you to share with everybody how you manifested your soul mate. And I was totally unprepared. I just, like, did 45 minutes explaining what I did, all the processes and prayers and rituals and blah blah blah. And when I was done talking, half the room just rushed the stage and said, I need that book. You've gotta write this book. And I was like, no,
I've already written 6 books. I don't wanna write another book. And my sister's like, no, you've gotta write a book on how to manifest a soulmate. So I thought, no, I don't wanna write a book. But this was beginning of the Internet days and I had a friend who was an Internet expert and he said, let's make a product. Because you just sit down, I'll record you talking, we'll transcribe your talks, we'll make a workbook, you know, like, he had it all figured out. And over a weekend, we created this
product that I called the Soulmate Kit. And then he got online and he sold it and we made money. It was great. Soon after, I was with Deepak Chopra, I was coproducing a PBS special for him, and his publisher arrived. And we were having dinner and the publisher said to me, what's new? What are you doing? And I explained my Soulmate kit and they said, send it to us. I sent it to him, next thing I knew they were throwing a lot of money at me to turn it into a book.
And that was the start of this sort of LUG expert thing. Because soon after I shut down the PR firm and the literary agent agency, as soon as the book came out, like, even before the book came out it was a best seller. It was one of these crazy things. They just took off and then people started calling. Oh, come to Esalen, come to Omega Institute, come talk here, come talk there. And then I had a new career.
That's how my life's been. It's just kinda like evolved in into different things and and so now I'm in the evolutionary stage and we'll see. I guess that's the kind of ebb and flow of life. Is it not like there's energy and expansion, and then there's pausing and contraction or a kind of, winter as you go inward and go quiet, waiting for the next spring to emerge?
Yes. And that's funny you mentioned that word because when I went through one of these dark periods where everything fell apart, I went to an astrologer. And the astrologer said to me, you are in deep winter and it's gonna be a long time before spring comes, so you're gonna have to endure it. It was one of these things where my business fell apart, my boyfriend dumped me, and I got Epstein Barr all in the same week.
And after the reading, which wasn't what I was hoping for, she said to me, I wanna tell you a story. And she told me this story about how she was raised by a very mean and difficult mother and the mother had recently died. And the mother came to her in meditation that morning and said to her, the reason I was so horrible to you in this lifetime is because you asked me in between lives to do this so that you could grow and become the woman that you are today.
That was so mind blowing and then I thought, oh, it just kinda triggered something for me like, oh, all of this cold, dark winter is just gonna lead into a magnificent spring, which of course it did eventually. There's a lot of people in winter right now. In fact, I have so many friends that are going through such horror right now. I have a friend who fell off a ladder 2 days ago, broke both arms, both wrists, several ribs, and is in rehab for the next 8 weeks.
And she's not the only one. People are breaking bones. Businesses are failing. Then there's all the anger over the elections. There's just so winter's not fun. And, of course, we're almost at the winter solstice. So Right. How soon after did Debbie die? And as her sister, I'm just so curious about her legacy, her life, and your life.
So back in the early nineties when she was going through all of this, she was also studying at JFK University, studying all the young stuff, and I was new to my work with Deepak and Wayne and all of those. And I was constantly sending her tapes, little cassette tapes of all these lectures. And she called me one day and she said, need to ask Deepak a question. And I said, what? He said, well, on his tape he said that every 7 years, every cell in our body changes and renews.
And if that's true, how come when I go to 12 step meetings, they're telling me I'm going to be a drug addict for the rest of my life? Don't my cells change? And that's when she got very interested in shadow work. And she said, I know that I am healed and yet every time I stand up and say, hi, my name's Debbie and I'm an addict, it reinforces something I no longer believe to be true.
So that was the start of of her interest in embracing her shadow and understanding her shadow and learning how to speak about it. Now here's the really crazy story that nobody knows. One day we were at Deepak's house having lunch. Debbie, at the time, her paying job was being a trial consultant prepping witnesses to show up authentically on the stand. That was her job. Deepak was asking her all about it. He'd never heard of such a
thing. And he said, we just opened this Chopra Center, and I have these people working for me, and it's a little chaotic. Can I give you my whole team for a weekend and just see what you can do with them? And so he she took them for 3 days, and on the Monday, he called her and he said, I don't know what you did, but you need to give it a name and a workshop because we're gonna teach it here at the
Chopra Center. And that was where the shadow process evolved from her curiosity about him, his curiosity about her. So then she lived another really almost 20 years. Right? Because we're talking about early nineties and she died in 2013. And what she died from was this very rare cancer. I've never learned the name of it because it was like 17 syllables and I didn't need to know the name of it.
And she fought till the very end. She didn't wanna go and she ended up living 2 years longer than the doctor said was possible. Because she was a fighter. And now she's on the other side and every once in a while I'll talk to a a psychic medium and I'll get messages from her or sometimes I hear her myself, which is very freaky. I'll just give you one quick example. One morning I was in the bathtub and I heard her clearly say to me, call Kim and tell Kim to go for
it. This was a mutual friend of ours. I'm thinking, that's just too vague. And she said it three times. I pick up the phone, I call Kim, I was like, I'm really sorry. Debbie has a message for you. I don't know what it means, and here it is. She says to go for it. And Kim screams and goes, oh my god. That's exactly what I needed to hear, and when I can get tell you more, I will. 6 weeks later, she called, and she's 52 years old, miss Kim. She calls me and she says, I'm pregnant.
It's like, Kim, you're 52. What do you mean no you're pregnant? She said, I had gotten a donor egg with my husband's sperm and it was ready to go and I was deciding in that moment whether or not to implant it. She carried this baby very healthily full term because Debbie whispered in my ear, tell Kim to go for it. Communication from the other side. Your connection with your sister Debbie. Yeah. So it's she's still around and from what I understand she's very busy because
strangers email me all the time. I never met your sister, but I was in a bookstore the other day and her book fell to my feet and I read it. Or she came to me in a dream, or I was about to do something, and I heard her say, no. Don't do that. And so That's wonderful. So then you sort of move forward. You delivered a TED Talk. Was that on the same topic of love? No. There was an article in our local weekly paper, The La Jolla Light, that there was gonna be TEDx Talks in La Jolla.
And I've never wanted to do a TED Talk, but I thought, well, it's down the street. Maybe I should do it. So I went online and I filled out the paperwork and I thought, well, I don't wanna talk about love. And in the article, they had given 29 topics that they were interested in. And the only topic that it was remotely interesting to me was on aging happily. And I thought, oh, I have something to say about that. So I filled out the
form. And then I got a call from the woman who organized the thing and she said, oh, I'm so and so and I know who you are. If you wanna talk about love even though it wasn't on our list, we would love for you to talk about love. And I said, no, I don't wanna talk about love. I'm tired talking about love. I wanna talk about aging happily. So that's how the whole thing started. They had 850 people apply and at the end of the day, they chose 9 of us. And it was the
hardest thing I've ever done. Why was that? What was so hard about it? I have a really terrible memory and you have to memorize your talk because there's no cheat sheet, there's no teleprompter. So I had to rehearse and rehearse and rehearse and, ultimately, it was probably the most fun I've ever had with my clothes on. I had 500 people laughing at me, which was very very fun. And if anybody wants to see it, you can go to YouTube and Google my name plus aging happily plus TED,
and you can watch it. It's only 9 minutes long, but it's historical. What's the secret to combining those two things, aging and happiness? So it's about wabi sabi. Wabi sabi is about finding the perfection and the imperfection. And then it's also about having the facts that the older most people get, like, once you pass 50, statistically most people get happier. So the TED talk is filled with the actual data and stats along with funny stories of how I've used Wabi Sabi
to be happy. I mean, I'm thrilled to tell everybody I'm 72. I think it's great. I'm so much happier today than I was at 22 or 32. I was pretty miserable back then. You have this, like, a brightness and, sort of casting aside concerns unshackled, unburdened, style as you talk here. I can sort of see it. Well, given the state of the world right now, my mantra is it's time to have as much fun as possible. We don't know how many days or decades
we have left on the planet. The way things are burning up all over the place, nothing is guaranteed. So, you know, eat that cheesecake, you know. Sleep through that alarm. You know, when I hear you say this, it reminds me of the component of fun in the Hoffman process. And I won't go into specifics, but there is a part of the process which is dedicated to fun. And the thing that surprises me nearly every time I teach is the way in which that fun experience transforms
people's lives. Like, you would think the work would, but fun is very much a part of change and transformation. It is the work. Allowing yourself to have fun is the ingredient that will help make your life better. Yeah. I posted on my social media the other day this Jimmy Kimmel video of his aunt Chippy being in a driverless Uber. Oh, we will put this in the show notes. I was on the floor laughing
so hard. I've I've been crying at the same time and I can't tell you how many people, like, said, oh my god, I needed that so bad. Now she drops f bombs like crazy. Just little forewarning there but it's super, super funny. Aunt Chippy, Jimmy Kimmel, driverless car. It'll hurt you. It'll laugh so hard. Oh, that's good. Laughter, it's not just about fun. Right? Well, there's a whole chemical component, you know, if you're releasing all that dopamine and oxytocin
and all those other good fun things. You know, it's interesting. I mean, as we're talking here, these things we pursue with such almost addiction, dopamine and oxytocin through unnatural means, through our phone, through drugs, through all these other ways, and and yet there are natural ways to bring about those healthy drugs in our system. Yeah. Laughing is my drug of choice these days. That's great, Arielle. So what helps you laugh more? What is the secret to embracing laughter?
Well, I go looking for it. You know, I go on to YouTube and I go looking for it or people will send they know how much I like it. So, you know, little comedy clips, from Instagram and Facebook. I mean, I don't understand people say, oh, I've gotta get off social media, it's making me miserable. I said, no, it's time for social media because it's so much fun and it's funny and, like, I love cat videos and some of my closest friends have cats, so we share them.
We also like to make fun of men, not in any kind of a cruel way, but, you know, the comedians who come up with the stupid things men do for mansplaining. You know, I regularly get fed this stuff. I think it's necessary. Part of what I hear there is you curate your social media and your use of videos to make them work for you. You're not a victim of what the next scroll hits you with. No. And I'm very familiar with the unfriend button. People put up mean nasty stuff or
or stuff that I find offensive. They're just gone. You know, there's no reason to subject myself. And I've also trained myself not to respond to stuff. You know, like somebody will post something and I'll disagree with it and I no longer
respond. And and I always think about Hoffman when I don't respond because one of the biggest lessons I got out of Hoffman was that you don't have to say everything that you're thinking, that you can be in silence, like just because you have that thought doesn't mean it needs to go anywhere, or just because you're having this feeling doesn't mean it needs to be shared. I would say I live by the Four Agreements, that's my 5th agreement. You know, keep your mouth shut.
The Four Agreements book you're talking about and your 5th agreement is there are certain things that you can keep to yourself, you don't have to share. Keep your mouth shut. Nobody needs to know your opinion on this. You know, I love to be right. I watch Jeopardy every night because it reinforces how smart I am. It's really good. It's very good therapy for me. But I've learned, yeah, just because I know the answer. I don't know these people.
I don't you know, 372 people already told this woman, your husband's been cheating on you for 32 years, and now you're gonna leave? Right? It's like, what were you doing before? You know? In not sharing everything, there's some humility, some temperance, an ability to pause. Lots of good qualities that involve not impulsively sharing every thought that comes into your head. And it's hard sometimes, you know. I have to, like, remind myself. No. It's not gonna change anybody's world if you
put your 2¢ in. Be quiet. Well, you know, as we wind down here, I'm just back to where you are in this stage in your life. And we've interviewed some people on the podcast in the past who when they were in the struggle, they, in a way, weaponized that struggle against themselves. And so you're not even in struggle. You just don't know what's next, but you're not making a big issue out of it. You're allowing. I guess that's the word I really hear is you're allowing where you are now to be okay.
Is that how you see it? I see it as it is okay. Like I said, I've been in this phase. This is probably the 4th time. So I know that one part of my life is winding down and something new is coming. And every time something new has come it's been exciting and creative and fun. So it's okay and I'm not suffering. I'm not suffering physically or emotionally or spiritually. My core issue in life is poverty consciousness.
I was brought up in a home surrounded by lots of Jews who had poverty consciousness including my my grandmother who never let us forget about the depression and sleeping on her newspapers. So I've worked a lot on that. The idea of not working right now will sometimes kick up. Oh, if you're not working, you're not making any money. But even now I have this such a level of trust that the money always comes and I just don't need to know from where it's going to come.
So I I can only attribute this to old age at this point. It's like, oh, I survived that and I survived that. There's no reason why I wouldn't survive that. And and I'm ready for a new identity. I've had lots of identities. I'm ready for something new. Well, you'll have to check back with us and keep us posted on the emergence of this new identity in the process to help foster and cultivate what's next for you. I will. I'll let you know for sure. Who knows when it'll
happen? But but even if nothing happens, I'm still enjoying the ability to just be because I was a type a workaholic for so much of my life. I was so bad that every day I'd make a to do list so I could cross things off. And sometimes if I did something that wasn't on the list, I would put it on the list so I could cross it off. That's how bad I was. And then I have no list really except, you know, do I have to remember to
go to the grocery store? Well, the the list of those two letters, b and e to just b. Ariel, thank you for being with us in this conversation. I'm grateful. Wow. Thank you. It was it was very fun. I haven't done one of these in a while. You're my first podcast since I got out of the hospital. You're back. It's coming. I love it. You're great at it. So thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for listening to our podcast. My
name is Liza Ingrassi. I'm the CEO and president of Hoffman Institute Foundation. And I'm Raz Ingrassi, Hoffman teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute Foundation. Our mission is to provide people greater access to the wisdom and power of love. In themselves, in each other, and in the world. To find out more, please go to hampmaninstitute.org.