I can remember it so vividly standing outside under this beautiful gum tree looking out over the ocean, and she said, Annie, what you're looking for is just beyond this. If you can just hang in there, it's just on the other side of this. I did not wanna stay, but I trusted her. And I put my big girl pants on, and I went back in. I persevered, and I stayed. Welcome to Love's Everyday Radius, a podcast brought to you by the Hoffman Institute.
My name is Liz Severn. And on this podcast, we will explore graduates' journeys of self discovery and learn how the process transformed their internal and external worlds. Hope you enjoy. Hello everyone. I am so excited today with us. We have Annie Looby, who is a Hoffman process teacher from Australia. Hi, Annie. Hi, Liz. It's lovely to be here. Oh, I'm just gonna love your accent the entire time.
I should say that. There you go. I'm so excited to kinda get to know you better and just hear all about you and Hoffman and all the good things. But I'd love it if you kicked us off just to tell us a little bit about beyond being a Hoffman process teacher, who you are and what you do in the world. I I've come to this work relatively late
in my life. I'm now in my early sixties and previously I have been an actor, you know, working in the performing arts in theater and film and television in Australia for more decades than I'm here to name. And, I, around my mid forties, I started searching for something purposeful, I guess, to do. And I discovered Hoffman. Actually, my husband did the Hoffman process first, and it was so beautiful watching the shift in him that I thought, well, you know, I want what he's having.
And, I think about a year later, I went and did the process. And while I was on my process, I have such a strong realization, I guess, that this is the work I wanna do. This is what I've been searching for. So then I went and I went back and did graduate studies in the psychotherapy. And I discovered actually that what I love about being an actor is not dissimilar to what I love about being a therapist because I'm fascinated with the human condition and
why we are who we are. So whether it's a character that I'm studying, creating, and trying to work out, you know, what motivates this particular character, I can now bring to, you know, real life people, including my own journey of, you know, why am I who I am? So it's, it's been a, an incredible Renaissance. It feels like I found something that is incredibly meaningful and creative and rich and deep and that I can continue to do, you know, hopefully for another, you know, decade or 2.
What a beautiful parallel and similarities in in those two lives. I know it's it's not you are still acting and and in the performing arts. And I love hearing, you know, yes, there are some elements of that as being a Hoffman teacher, but you so casually just, you know, grazed by the fact that on this journey towards being a Hoffman teacher, you had to go back to school and really get your studies, your graduate studies in psychotherapy. What was like that like?
I was in my early fifties and I, you know, I don't come from an academic background and I was really insecure, really scared. I had all sorts of, really insecure, really scared, I had all sorts of doubts. You know, that's where the beauty of the Hoffman process. I think I was able to use the tools to stay with it, to stick with it. It's the sort of thing that was so challenging initially that, you know, I could have easily given up, and I didn't. And I I
stuck with it. It just got richer and richer even though it continued to be challenging. And I think like any lifelong learning, you know, if you stick with it, it it gives you enormous confidence and it has given me enormous confidence. So yes. To go back to be a beginner, I guess, and I still feel like a beginner. It's very, very humbling to be a beginner
in the second half of your life. You know, it's the time when most people are serving their mastery and, it's a 4 part model that they talk about unconscious incompetence and then conscious incompetence. Well, I spent a lot long time in conscious incompetence. I feel like, so it was very humbling to, and continues to be humbling, I think, to be a lifelong learner, but to also feel like, you know, a beginner in many ways.
And yet I'm not because I've been on the planet a long time and I have a wealth of life experience that I can bring to the therapeutic relationship and to the work I do at Hoffman. So it's been a very rich journey. I don't know how many times I can say rich in this conversation, but let's let's make it count. You know, what a story, the honesty, and just how humbling it is to be a
beginner. And especially, as you mentioned, in a stage in your life where a lot of people are beginning to rely on some of their experience or spending a long time in a job and it's gotten them to a certain place. So how did you stay motivated during those times when perhaps your dark side or your voice of judgment, whatever we wanna call it, might have been like, Annie, what are you doing? There's a lot of shame,
I think, underpinning it. A lot of feelings because I didn't come from an academic background. So here, I I was in an academic environment. So whereas in the past, I probably would have given up, and I think I did give up in previous years when I had an opportunity at one point to turn my arts qualification into a degree, and I I didn't do it because I was too insecure.
So it was wonderful to come to this point with the tools of the process and to realize that what was driving was this shame belief that I'm just not good enough. You know, I'll fail. And so I was able to sort of put that into some of the structures of the process around awareness and expression and compassion and forgiveness and new behavior, and then really be able to be with myself in a way that was much more compassionate.
And I asked for support. That was the big thing because, you know, pride would have stopped me in the past from asking for support, especially as a mature age student. You know, my dark side or my inner critic was saying, don't ask for support. That'll think you're an idiot. You know? So I managed to overcome that voice and ask for support. I was supported by this extraordinary woman in the academic student support team. His name was
Dimmy, and she was such an angel. I remember going to her and know how to structure an essay. I was I just felt like such a a dunce. And I remember going to her and, you know, feeling, you know, that terrible feeling when you've got tears sitting right right on the edge. And, so I had so much shame, and she was just amazing. She just was so supportive. And I learned very quickly that this world of academia that I thought was some exclusive club that I didn't belong to was actually a formula.
You know, I ended up doing incredibly well, I think, because I asked for support. Then I realized, oh, right. It's not some exclusive club that I don't belong to. I've just gotta, I guess, play the game to some extent to, you know, fulfill the criteria of whatever it is that was being asked of me. And then I I was I was cray I was like, oh, I can do this. I'm going to do a PhD. Look out. There's a big doctor Annie.
Yeah. The other part of the story that when you were talking to me about it just sort of captivated me is, you know, you went back to school to do your graduate stays all still with the with the thought of becoming a Hoffman teacher. Right? So, I mean, you really had this end goal in mind. And, I mean, talk about some hurdles that that were in front of you before you were able to stand up and deliver
the Hoffman process. The courage and the vulnerability in that and the stick to it ness, right, is just mind blowing for me of of this being a beginner and yet sticking through things to kinda get you to this place of, alright, I'm certified. I'm a Hoffman teacher. Yeah. It was quite a journey. It was probably over about 4 years. I mean, I had particular skills that I could bring to the process because I can stand in front of a room when I can communicate well, and, you know, I am a
performer. So but what my challenge became, you know, I didn't wanna perform it. I didn't wanna act like a Hoffman teacher. I wanted to walk the talk, and I wanted to really embody the teaching. So then that means you've gotta be in your own process as you will know, you know, through your own training, that you need to be in your own process constantly. And even now, I'll I'm about 8 years down the track now. And now even now, something will trigger me, and I'll have
to meet myself. You know, I need to slow down and bring a sense of compassion to whatever I'm experiencing or whatever the unhealthy narrative I might be holding. And, you know, it's an ongoing piece of work, isn't it? It's a lifelong learning. On the Monday of the whole process, we explore shame. It's such a beautiful exploration. I mean, that sounds doesn't sound like something enjoyable to explore, but it's very deep and very liberating ultimately.
When I was in my training, it was, like, every Monday of the process in the afternoon, I'd have this, I shouldn't be here, and I I can't do this work, and I have to leave. And, you know, of course, I I wouldn't, and I didn't. But it was interesting that the process itself would then mirror my own inner process. So it was very challenging along the way. But, boy, best thing I ever did, I have such faith in this process.
I love the deep dive. I think the power of this process to save lives is extraordinary, and I learn more and more to really trust the process itself. It is so beautifully designed and structured that my job as a facilitator is to kinda hold the structure and trust the process.
When I was in the first couple of years of teaching, I think I would in my enthusiasm, I'd probably be overly involved, and I've learned more and more to lean back and to allow more spaciousness and, and watch the marvel of the process unfold and watch the pennies drop in the participants. You know, watch the light go on. It it's such a joy.
I remember when we were talking, you also mentioned part of your own personal process and how shame and learning about shame and kind of having the the courage to explore it during your own personal process was part of one of those moments for you of kind of the light went on. You were like, wow. This is what we're doing. Do you mind taking us back to your own personal process and what that looks like? It's many years ago now, but a
couple of things really, really stand out. One was we do some wonderful expressive work on the process where we start to be able to use your body and your voice to process the historical pain, if you like, or the really giving voice to things that have never had expression. And it's incredibly liberating if you, you know, throw yourself into it. And of course, being the performer that I am, I threw myself into it. And at one point, Volker, who was running that particular piece said,
you know, how's that feel? And I put my hand up. I said, I feel like a big fake because, you know, I was I was doing a brilliant performance of expression. And I did. I felt like a fake. And he said, so who was a fake? Was it your mom or your dad? My jaw nearly hit the ground. I because my dad, for all his lovable lyric and Aussiness, was a terrible liar. And he could spin a yarn like you wouldn't
believe. He was very entertaining and all sorts of, you know, wonderful things, but he was not honest. And he had a lot of bravado. And I saw this pattern of putting on a show and how it connected to dad and how I learned it as a behavior. And that that really made me angry because and then I I then I tapped into, wow. I mean, the cost of this pattern in my life and and how much it's shown up in my life where I had felt like I had to perform to be seen or to be validated or to have my needs met.
And so I could see how I how inauthentic that was. And then, of course, there's the shame that follows that of realizing that I've been inauthentic, and I don't wanna be inauthentic. So it was a it was a brilliant moment in my process. I love hearing that. I know exactly where that is, but I'm curious. Does that kind of fear of being fake or performing, does that still show up for you? It's an ongoing process. If I'm feeling insecure or if there's a little bit of shame happening,
my tendency will be to over function. So I've gotta watch where I add more rather than actually lean back and be with myself in a way that's supportive and that I can slow down and breathe and, you know, not have to override the discomfort with a coverup, which is in my case is a tendency to to perform. But the the hard thing about that in our, in my exploration of it is there's also a gift in the, the pattern, if you like. There's a gift
of the performer. There is a gift of being able to authentically stand up and be funny and engaging and all the things that are in the gift of the performer. But the inquiry then becomes that nuance difference between what's driving it. Is presence driving it and love driving it, or is shame and fear driving it? And that's when I've gotta sort of really take my attention back and in and deepen into my own inquiry around what may be
driving whatever the pattern might be. And, of course, the pattern itself is not the bad guy. We've got to have behaviors and beliefs to be in the world. We've got a function. And so it's it's more about, is the pattern running me or am I running the pattern? So that's my sort of ongoing exploration in my own structure is the difference between the gift of the performer and where it becomes a compensation. I think that's such a beautiful inquiry. Right?
I remember you talked about that before. It's like, where is it that I can own the gift in this, and where also can I be vulnerable? Right? It's like the the balancing act of the 2. And I think that's just such an important lesson and inquiry for all of us because it's so true. And when we get so one-sided on, oh, this is bad and this is a pat you know, we we lose sight of, and there's a gift here even if it's just asking the question. You know, what's driving
this? So I I appreciate that. Yeah. Even yeah. I think of a lot of people a lot of people come to the process. A lot of people have a rescuing pattern because they've learned that that's a helpful thing to look after people. But often when it's a pattern, it's negating one's own needs in favor of of another's. So it's nothing wrong with helping people. Of course there isn't. We wanna be in the world and be of service. But again, what's
driving it? Is it shame driving it? Is it the deficit and we're trying to fill that hole? Or is it coming from a place of a full cup and is it coming from a place of, of self worth and self love and an abundance of energy that can then overflow in service? It's a very different
energetic equation, I think. And there was another moment on my process you've mentioned before, but and I think that's helpful because I think everyone has a moment on fair process where there's a roadblock, an impasse of some sort, or a a huge resistance comes up and you wanna leave the process. As good as the Annie, are you gonna out yourself the time that you wanted to leave the process? Yeah. Yeah. My own process. I and of course it was around shame. Oh my gosh. And shame is such a powerful
driver in all of us. We'll do anything not to feel that intolerable discomfort of shame, this sort of toxic shame belief that I'm somehow unworthy on my own process. On the day we explored shame, I shared something, you know, personal, and I went into such a shame attack. I left the room, and I thought, like, I don't belong here. I don't deserve this. This is I'm a terrible person. You know, it was really, really painful. And I remember beautiful Keri Chinner, who's a, an Australian facilitator.
She was my teacher and she came outside and I could remember it so vividly standing outside under this beautiful gum tree, looking out over the the ocean. And she said, Annie, what you're looking for is just beyond this. If you can just hang in there, it's just on the other side of this. And I did not wanna stay, but I trusted her. And I put my big girl pants on, and I went back inside, and I
persevered, and I stayed. And, of course, you know, not long after when we're exploring shame in the process, we start to move towards understanding and compassion and forgiveness. And that's profound in my life that the shift that I've made towards my capacity to be with myself kindly, instead of that inner critic slamming me. So it was a profound shift in my process and in my life. How do you think it has, changed how you are with students when you're teaching or the impact of it, I should
say? Well, I guess it's what we what I touched on before is the importance of walking the talk of of really embodying the work. I think that as a therapist or as a Hoffman teacher, I think you can only be with another human being to the capacity you've been with yourself. So the deeper my own inner work and and courage and ongoing exploration of my own human frailty, that allows me to be with theirs, I guess, in a way that is more deeply empathic and
more deeply compassionate, I think. I think I'm just more loving because I'm more loving of myself. So I'm able to meet them in their deepest, darkest places with love and presence. Yeah. Beautiful. And this just I hear the understanding. Right? I love like you said, we there is a moment in my process too. Right? I think I calmly was like, okay. Alright. I think I'm, like, I'm not meant to be here. You know? I was like, my teacher was like, okay. Tell me more.
It's true. There there are moments for all of us. You also reference this idea of, like, deepening in to the place, right, where we least wanna be, least wanna sit. Yeah. One of my favorite things I learned when I was studying is the paradoxical theory of change. I just made so much sense that the way home is in is is this capacity to go deeply within. Most people, myself included, spend our lives moving away from discomfort. And, actually, the gold is in sitting in the place you least wanna
sit. And that if we can build the capacity to be with the pain, be with the discomfort, be with the historical stuff, then that's where we we start to open into this deeper sense of maturity and capacity and ground and safety. And it's where all the juice is. It's where love lives is is in this deepening into the pain. So it is paradoxical. And I often say that to people because it's what we do. It's like a trampoline, isn't it? The way we did our lives normally is you get a little hint of
pain and you're like, woah. Out of there. I wanna feel that. And so we bounce off into whatever distractions or coverups or other patterns. We use not to feel the healing is in the feeling largely. I know. It's it's a good saying for a reason and I love what you just said. The journey home is is in. I often say that to my participants. It's an inside job and it really is. Yeah. We have a lot of culture beliefs
around all that. That means you're selfish or you're a naval geyser or you're indulgent or, you know, what are the other judgments, particularly actually in the Australian culture. I don't know if it's the same in America, but Australians are very resistant to what they might view as sentimentality or, you know, it's like, just get over it. You know, you'll be right, mate. That kind of attitude, real fear of depth and of feeling. It's a shame because this idea that it's indulgent is so wrong.
It it actually keeps us in a very young place and it's an old pattern belief from our family system that says, toughen up, get over it, pull your socks up, rather than being able to realize that the maturity lies in this capacity to be with ourselves. And ultimately, this is a kind of reparenting course in a way because, you know, not there's not a parent on the earth that is able to meet every child's need, which is just part of the human condition.
So this self responsible piece of being able to deepen into our whole being, not just our intellect, but our emotional self and the gifts of joy and delight and appropriate sadness and heart opening compassion, you know, that all resides in this emotional part of us that has been regressed and shut down in most people in my systems.
So it's far from indulgent. It is absolutely self responsible to be able to do this deeper healing work so that we can be in the world in a way that's not behaving like an 8 year old, which is frankly what I feel like is happening in the world at the moment, that the world's being run by 8 year olds in adult suits. So, yeah, that emotional maturity, I think that's where this work is really profound.
Absolutely. And in in the healing and in the growth, but there's also this idea of being okay with being deeply uncomfortable. Yes. During Hoffman, but also just in life and while we're on our own journeys of healing and self discovery. Absolutely. That's the other thing I often say to to participants is this is not a magic pill. I mean, it will change your life,
but the journey is ongoing. Of course, you're going to, you know, leave the brilliance of Hoffman, and you're gonna be challenged every I mean, we all are all the time and you just never know what's ahead. And that's where, again, the emotional maturity is so key because that's where we become more resilient in the world. So when the challenge arises, we're not overcome by whatever the challenge may be.
We're able to meet it with a deeper sense of maturity and capacity and courage and confidence and compassion. We're able to meet the challenge in in a different way and that emotional maturity is emotional resilience. I love hearing it phrased that way because it's so true. It's something that I've experienced myself, but also in that sort of emotional resiliency, I've I've also found the path towards authenticity.
And so what's your relationship been to authenticity, whether that's during the process, after, this journey to being a teacher? Well, the imposter syndrome still pops up occasionally. In fact, when you asked me to do this podcast, initially, I was like, oh, I'm happy. I'd be really honored, and that'd be so beautiful. And I love listening to the podcast, and, wow, what an honor. And then not long after that, I was like, oh, I can't do that. Well, I I'm qualified
to do that. And, you know, the the impostor syndrome kicked in, and it's still there. But it's just an old belief. I can see it and observe it and, you know, not buy into that narrative. And so what I try to do, and I don't always succeed, is just to show up in as honest a way as I can. I think for me, authenticity is humility and honesty and just being the messy human that I
am. And I think that modeling that even, you know, on the process, like, allowing mistakes, being able to navigate, you know, rupture and repair, that's the human condition where where there's going to be rupture. But can I show up honestly and humbly and own my part in whatever it may be? Or yeah. I think that modeling of messy humanness is, I think, really important. Yeah. Absolutely.
It feels like a full circle moment for me in a way because well, we also started talking about just the the courage that you had to set out on this new new career path that wasn't just submitting a resume or CV. Like, it it required years of schooling and efforting and the the beauty in being a beginner. And it just makes me think of the beauty in all of us having beginner's mind and eyes as we're in our own journeys,
especially at Hoffman. Right? It's new terms. It's new emotions that some of us might be feeling or unpacking for the first time, but just the the beauty and being a beginner in that. Yeah. And that that can happen at any age. You know, some people come to the process quite young. We've had people come in their seventies. It's wonderful to come in any age. And, you know, I think also my experience as a as a mom, often with parents on the process, let's say they're in sort of middle age.
There's a lot of like, oh my gosh. What have I done to my kids? But my experience has been that as I have modeled self responsibility and growth, It's modeled to them that that is possible. And also, you know, being able to really take responsibility for where I failed them and really own it and make amends. I mean, that took rupture and repair. I mean, gosh, what it is transformed in my relationship with my kids is absolutely beautiful. So it doesn't matter what age you are,
it's growth and you can choose it. It's choice. And I'm very, very, very grateful that I chose that and I had the courage to choose it. Any other advice you have for anyone that, you know, is inspired to try something new or change career paths or take a deep dive into something scary and uncomfortable within? You know, it's so dependent on that person's particular internal system.
There are plenty of people who spend their lives being driven and trying new things, but it may be actually motivated by a sense of deficiency. You know, that's not such a good thing. Maybe their growth is actually in slowing down and being enough without adding more. So it depends very much on on the individual's journey. What I would say is that this deeper journey I mean, I think you can do talk therapy until the cows come home and you can have great awareness. And
I'm not dissing talk therapy. But if it's only talk therapy, I don't think it's enough to really affect real change because awareness is one piece. I know having done enough therapy in my own life that that awareness can become a hellish kind of place where nothing really changes. So this deeper dive is what I love, and I love group process, and I love team facilitation. It feels very collaborative. But working in a group and the common human experience is so healing.
When you can have the courage to sit with other human beings and share their stories and realize that we are all at the mercy of these shame beliefs that have driven out the unlimiting behaviors and beliefs, we all have this in common. And it brings us out of isolation and and loneliness into belonging. So it's just, I guess, having the courage to step over the threshold to choose to dive in to this deeper work and this one precious life as Mary Oliver would say. Yeah. It's a choice.
I'd love to ask Hoffman teachers, what's what's one of your favorite parts or whether that's something you teach or something you get to experience, about being a facilitator or a teacher. Well, it's probably another conversation that I I think my favorite tool of the process is transference.
And we don't have the time to go into that now, but it is, I think, the most comprehensive tool of the process and the game changer for most people when they understand how often we are in transference, which is, in essence, where we projected a whole lot of stuff onto another person that is through the historical lens of our childhood. So that is another conversation, but I love teaching it and I love the impact of it as a tool and the application of it as a tool.
And of course I love when we get to Wednesday and we explore joy and playfulness. And what I love again about this process is the extraordinary design and how one piece builds on another that's that we can't get to Wednesday without having done Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. You know, it's the brilliance of the way it will unfold. So it's like the whole spectrum, this process. It it takes you to the very depths and to the very divine heights, and it's a very, very rich, beautiful
process. I love it all. Well, anything else, Annie, that you wanna touch on or share with us or or talk about? Well, I'd like to do an interview with you because I'd as much as I've enjoyed sharing with you my experience, I'm very curious about other people's experience as well. Have you done an interview? Have you done one of these interviews? I have. Oh, okay. Then I'm gonna go and listen to your interview. That's what I'm gonna go and
do. Well, Annie, I have just had a lot of fun with you today, as I always do, but I've just really enjoyed your honesty and your humility and your just so approachable. And I just find that so wildly refreshing and comforting and safe. So I just really wanna thank you for coming on and sharing with us you. I have so enjoyed the conversation, Liz. I love talking about this work. I can talk about it endlessly. It's changed my life, and it continues to inspire
me. And I continue to be inspired by the participants, their courage, and their willingness, and it is such beautiful work. And, you know, I really wanna reiterate that it's never too late. I started this journey at 52 and I'm now in my my early sixties and it's just never too late, like, to have found the courage
to dive in. I, honestly, I feel the luckiest woman on the planet that I have this renaissance, this whole new chapter of growth and depth and richness and, you know, being able to be with people, be with other human beings in this work. It is I'm so grateful. So, yeah, I I would just say to anyone listening, no matter what age you are, it's just never too late, ever. Yeah. So thank you, Liz. Beautiful. Thank you, Amy. Thank you for listening to our podcast. My
name is Liza Ingrassi. I'm the CEO and president of Hoffman Institute Foundation. And I'm Razi Ingrassi, Hoffman teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute Foundation. Our mission is to provide people greater access to the wisdom and power of love. In themselves, in each other and in the world. To find out more, please go to hanpmaninstitute.org.