I find that if it's right, doors open, things happen. When I'm not pushing, it's amazing to me when I listen to spirit the universe says, yes. And I still work hard. But I trust, and I think that's 1 of the biggest Changes for me is trusting. I don't have to hold the universe up. Welcome to Loves everyday radius. A podcast brought to you by the Hoffman Institute. I'm your host, Sharon Moore, and I hope
that you enjoy today's conversation. And that the stories shared by our graduates, impact, move and inspiring. My guest today are Tammy Tac and our husband Kim W. Among other things, Tammy was a hoffman grad group leader for 14 years. And here's what I'll share about the 2 of them just to give you a taste of what you're about to hear. The grad group that she led was in Portland. Which was 100 miles away from where she lived. Now Tammy ran this group, of course, not without her number 1 fan Kim.
Her exact words were, I couldn't have done this without him. Now Kim. In addition to laughing at all her jokes and looking at her ado, he would drive her to and from the grad group and on their way home, what they would discuss is How can we do this better next time? These 2 are so heartfelt, so connected, so in love. So this episode that you're about to hear is a sweet love story, not just between Tammy and Kim, but also between them and spirit. Tammy and Kim, welcome to the show. Thank
you. Thank you. It's good to be here. Well, I'm very happy to be here, and I'm really excited to. To have this conversation with you? Tammy, I'd love to start with you. Tell me when did you take the process and what was going on in your life that led you to the process.
I took it in 19 96, which is 28 years ago, and what was going on in my life was I had met the man of my dreams and done my work and was happily married and then things popped up, and I realized that it wasn't enough to have chosen a healthy partner. I needed to do some work on me too and it became apparent that I had some major issues with with abandonment, and I already figured out with my intellect, what that was all about.
But as all of us know, the intellect is great for awareness, but it's not great for transforming. So we were fortunate enough to have a friend who was going through the process. So he went through it in May. I went through it in June, and Kim went through it in July. And so that was what brought me there.
We were having repeated and rather boring arguments that were tearing at the the fabric of our lives, just we knew what each other was gonna say, and yet we were really committed to the marriage and we were in therapy, and we've done a lot of work in the site, what? What I was really held bed on maintaining my posture as, he needed to change so that I didn't feel bad. And it wasn't like he was doing anything that would lead me to feel abandoned. Having a drink with a friend.
Looking back, I see how ridiculous it was, but at the time I was totally charged and out of control. And I was in Perry deposit as well, which didn't help matters at all. So going through the process was really important. I find that so relatable. Alright, It's 1 of those moments where I know if I was in a room full of people and I said, how many people relate to this? I feel like we'd get close to a hundred percent of the people raising their hands.
This idea that we do our work, we manage to find the relationship that we want? And then what do you know? There's still stuff that we need to work on? So relatable. Yeah. It was kind of a a brutal awakening Tammy, you were talking about how we had the same arguments and boring, which is not to say that they weren't passionate and and emotional. We were having the same argument over
and over and over. And right now, I can't even really remember what it was, but I could almost predict what you were going to say So we were going round and mount and and not getting anywhere Intellect alone wasn't enough. Or a couple of intelligent folks and professionals and all that, but it takes more than Intellect doesn't it? Sure it does. So when our friend completed the process and it course, Elect 1 of the 4
isn't it. So so much more than the Intellect is what I'm about, and I'd always identify myself most of with the Intellect. And so I got to learn a lot more to me than that. Tammy, you were saying that this was a brutal awakening. When this was happening for you. Can you speak more to that? Well, I had been in therapy. I had done my work, and I I had realized I had a pattern of was choosing men who were not healthy or good for
me. And so I chose this man, whom I married to now, who was healthy and good for me. And I was I was not happy, Grasping at him, demanding that he changed so I would feel different what was brutal was I'd never had these kinds of feelings before? I thought, what is this about? Where is this coming from? And so I realized I had some deeper work to do. That was what was brutal is going, oh, shoot I'm not fixed. And I'll tell you folks at 71. I'm still not fixed.
It's it's a lifelong process, and it gets easier, We had this dynamic of oh I'm together in stuff and I'm all fine. You're the 1 that needs to be fixed. Those how convenient for me not to have to do anything. Yeah. So it was all my problem. In my first marriage, it had been all his problem. And that's why I never had to look at my stuff. Because whatever difficulties we had were due to my first husband's issues, and I was really
clear about that. Until I got into this marriage and went, oh, Maybe it wasn't just him myself. It was very humbling. Yeah. Fascinating. So if I'm hearing it correctly, yeah part of the pattern of attracting these the men that were kind of broken or wounded, allowed for the tough times to be about them. And then once you found the love of your life, suddenly, we didn't have that excuse and suddenly you had, oh, wow. Okay. Big reveal here. I've got some more stuff that I have to look at. Did
I get that right? Bingo. Yes. And in the past, these other men were able to hear that. Yep. It's my fault. It's my fault. But am I am I imagining a world where Kim is actually saying, no. This doesn't feel like it's mine or how how did that play out? How did it become apparent that this is a different dynamic? But we kinda fit together like a hand and a glove. I had abandonment issues and so I was clinging. I won't speak for Kim. Do you wanna share what... How yours fit with mine? Yeah.
I had engulfed issues. You could just back me all around the room or the state or the house or whatever. Don't you see what a on a dance for hell that is? Yeah. So the more I needed and the more I was clingy, the the more he felt engulfed and would run away, which made me feel more abandoned. It was a dance, and not a very fun 1. And what made it so weird was that, I love you. I loved
you then. I love you now. And so here's this role that I'm just crazy about and we had been married by this time like for 6 or 7 years, and it wasn't getting any better, and it that was really scary because, you know, it's most to get better as we understand. Right? Communicate to communicate. Well, we were communicating, but it takes more the
communication and more than elected. Most and we were just going round and round and and it was scary because whatever we were doing, try really hard, working hard and it wasn't working. So the magic for me of Hoffman was that what I hadn't been able to accomplish with my inlet. Which was healing this need. I feel like it transformed during the process during all the work I
did. During that week and continued to. I have such respect for the hoffman process and the intellectual and, no, the psychological sound ness of a whole process, the longer I have lived with it, the more in awe I am of Bob Hoffman and of how the process has evolved and how sound it is. It's the kind of thing that I wish everybody could go through.
And what's happened since I came back from the process 28 years ago, is it doesn't mean I don't ever feel the abandonment but I can say, oh, I'm being triggered, and I can say that to Kim. I'm having some abandonment stuff popping up right now and just need to let you know. I can be vulnerable without having to be defensive or demanding, and that brings out a different response in
him. He's less likely to run away if I say, I I need you because I'm feeling pretty vulnerable right now rather than if I'm saying, blaming him for whatever. And I don't feel like I have to either run away or try to fix it. It's a feeling. It's nothing that I have to jump around or tip to around or or try to fix? So then we were fortunate enough to go through the Hoffman couples. Retreat. Yeah. And that was amazing. We did that for our our t anniversary So that was relatively recently.
How much just years ago? So the beauty of that is that in Hoffman, you do your own work. You work on your own patterns, and basically you're you're responsible for your own stuff. However, in a relationship, there are things that partners do to trigger 1 another. And the beauty of this retreat, it's just magnificent. Is it we learned some new tools for working together as a
couple. So I so highly recommend the couples retreat for those of you who are fortunate enough to be graduates and be married or partnered with graduates. Because it makes such a difference. When I really like this idea, the things you're saying are so beautiful, I'm going back to something you said earlier. It's not that a abandonment it doesn't come up. It does, but we now have the A tools to navigate when it comes be
language to share with each other. Right? Because when I go into the pattern of abandonment, he goes in the pattern of, I need to run away some I'm being engulfed. But now we have tools to overcome those and communication to overcome those. And even with that, 30 years of marriage, that's a lot of patterns that get built up just within the unique couple, the unit of this couple. And so what a lovely thing to go and do the couples retreat 30 years later? Wow. It was wonderful, but we had a
vacation in in the alps. About 3 weeks after the couple's retreat. And I remember doing 1 particular exercise in view of the matter horn. It was you pretty amazing. It was embodied recycling and it was so powerful. And wonderful and here we're remembering it. So clearly. Mh. Needless to say Hoffman has played a role for each of you as individuals and certainly within the the marriage as well. Tammy, I know you continue to play
quite a significant role with graduates. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Sure. And I wanna put a plug in for the grad groups because this is where people continue doing their work. I certainly did. We were a part of the Portland grad group for I forget how many years, maybe 9 years or so. And I was loving going to the monthly meetings and, continuing the work when after 1 meeting, the leaders came to me and said, we'd really like step aside and let you take over leadership.
I like, oh my. It was a moment that both terrified and ex me. I knew instinctively, this this is spirit saying, yes. This is your next step. So I became the Hoffman grad group leader for the next 14 years in Portland. Which meant that I went from being a participant to being a leader, and the institute is so wise and that they have ways of supporting leaders through web classes and Zoom meetings and support in lots of ways so that I was able to continue my work.
And I found that you can't teach something you don't thoroughly understand. You're gonna find the holes where you don't know what you're talking about where you
just maybe giving lip service. And so I feel like leading the groups forced me to really dive deep and really understand things like transfer and elevators and recycling and the many tools that we've had part way through being a leader, the institute under underwent what they call the rejuvenation where the nomenclature and the process changed somewhat is still basically the same. But I felt I was really privileged to be able to go through the process a
second time. Kim went through it before me, and then I went through it again. Learning the different terms and understanding the research behind why we do what we do about neural pathways being formed and understanding more on a heart level what spirit is about. It was really important for me to know what the rejuvenate process was about so that when new grads showed up in our our meeting, that I knew what they were talking about. So that would... That was a really a a big step for all of us.
In 19 96 when we left the process There were no grad groups. At least not in Portland. Yeah. I think not anywhere. You've really gotten to see this work go from pretty raw pieces of work to a process that is fine tuned that is replica that many teachers can teach that then people like you can continue to have this impact and teach this work and share parts of the process with graduates even after they go into the process.
That's incredible. The this thing will live on and on and on as I know, and but I've had a much shorter chapter than you have seeing it, really get legs that will be here for many decades to come. That's a wonderful way to put it. I think that it has definitely got the legs, and it's going the journey. Yeah. Tammy, you mentioned this thing where you had this moment where it felt like, a, spirit just said yes. It was in that moment where the people said to you. Hey, can you be the leader in this?
Can you share with me, Is that a familiar feeling? Was that 1 of the first times that happened, has it happened since? That's a great question. I think some of my biggest steps in my life have had that yes. When I met Kim, I knew right away, and I was very bold in talking to him when I met him Like, this is who I want to be with, and we've were married 8 months later. I've had that knowing with a couple piano teachers, 1 of my passions is playing the
piano. With regard to both of these folks I just heard their names, and I got a yes. I don't know where that comes from. When I sing with choir called threshold choir we sing at the bedside of the dying. The first time I heard about this choir, I had goosebumps. It was like tingle. This is my next step. I felt that way about finding my spiritual path in religious science. Just there's that yes, and it's always been with the big stuff, and it's been unexpected.
It's like if I try to force an answer from spirit nothing happens. But if I pay attention to those goosebumps, it's never failed me, it's always been a wonderful guidance. Has it ever meant when that spirit that message from spirit where it's a strong yes. Has it ever meant that you needed to change something in your life that maybe your Intellect was like, oh. No. No. No. No. This is our safety, but your spirit was like, yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes Yes. I have you ever had to weigh those 2 in opposing sentiments? Oh, that's a really good question. I've never thought about it. But, yes, Where we live right now is a little town called rain on the Columbia river. I'm living in my childhood home. And we were living in Portland, and we both had jobs that we loved, and we had a house that we loved in a community. And as my mother was dying, she wanted us to move here, and I had felt pressure.
This is a farm. We had 80 acres, and she did not want to leave the family. So she was very anxious about what would happen to this piece of property. Well, I was out walking the road 1 day up here and just got this tremendous yes. It's like, I could be really happy here. And I am. And what's interesting is we remodeled the house. We both found jobs in this area we have built a community here, and we have kept many of our friends in Portland as well. So a lot of
our friends say, you're doing what? You're leaving Portland for Rain near, population population 1200 on a good day. Yeah. We're 5 miles out of town. Sometimes we don't have power because of snow. So, yes, I did some internal battles and then something just shifted this message. The message to move to the farm was 2 years after the process. That was 2 years after I had done the process. And was paying attention to to spirit and spirit was speak loud and clear.
Just incidentally, after the process, We do a lot of work with our parents. I was so glad my parents were alive when I did it because my dad developed pancreatic cancer and died 5 months after I left the process, and I'd had the opportunity to really connect with him. I have regrets about conversations I wish we'd had, but I don't have regrets about the way we treated each other. We were there for each other. I there for him as he was dying.
And a year later, went through the same thing with my mother, and that's why we moved here because she died in this house. I too Am I'm really grateful for the clarity that I got with my parents. They haven't changed, of course, but I had, and I got to see them as the as the wonderful human beings that they were and was able to express my love and appreciation and gratitude and for all that they had done for me. And oh, I know they loved hearing that just from seeing their faces.
Yeah. I relate. It's such a gift to be able to do that if if we are the lucky ones whose parents are still with us after the process, what a gift. What a gift? Yes. Yes. Some other a that I think Spirit was speaking when Covid hit. And was like, okay. We can't need in person. So I put in my big girl pants and learn zoom. And learn to adapt the modules to fit Zoom and came to love the connections. I also enjoyed being able to be in my jam while I was leading a group.
In the safety and comfort of my own home, It was interesting because there were several people who continued on Zoom. And in fact, we had people joining us from far away. 1 actually stop... Visited us from Afghanistan, and I thought this would never happen if we were only in person So I quite enjoyed doing Zoom, and there were a number of grads who said, I can't stand zoom. I'm not gonna do this. I need to be in person. I need to see people in person.
It was quite a tug because I was thinking what we really need is a group that's virtual and a group that's in person. And I had a vision that it would be good to alternate that. Month by month have 1 month in person, 1 month virtual so that we would meet the needs of all of the grads who are interested in being in this group. Because it's it's a tight community. We still socialize. We'd have picnic here in the summertime. It was a community that bonded over Hoffman and then continued.
Some of our our favorite meetings were making vision boards in January at the beginning of the year. And when Covid happened, we couldn't do that as a group. So when I hit 70 and and we could meet in person. I realized I didn't wanna make the drive to Portland anymore It's a hundred mile round trip. It just felt like too much. And I think spirit was speaking to be there. Just... It's like, you know, it's time to let go. Had some long conversations with Ed.
And that helped clarify, and I just made my intention then last summer to let go of the group. But not without finding a way to have the group continue. So it worked out the way it worked out, which I'm I'm really quite pleased 1 of the grads lives quite a distance from here, and she was happy to continue the virtual, 1 of our newer grads lives in Portland and has a gathering place at his retirement home, and he was happy to take over the in person.
So I met with both of them, kind of laid my cards on the table, worked with them and the onboarding process with the powers that be that are onboarding new grad group leaders. And in December, I said goodbye to the group, which was a little sorrow, but mostly just so grateful for having had this experience and knowing that it's the right time to move on. It's the right time to give our group what I can't give it, which is both virtual and in person.
And to give myself the release from the responsibility of leading the group. So I I missed the group. But I also feel like it was the right thing to do and the right time. What I hear from several of your examples is that when you have the strong yes from spirit. Yes. It's a strong guest from spirit, but that doesn't mean putting it into action isn't hard. It doesn't
mean there isn't an internal struggle. It doesn't mean that there isn't sorrow or sadness even if it still feels right, I think it's really nice to hear that perspective that When we're connected with spirit to the point where we get these strong yes. It doesn't necessarily mean easy and simple. But it means clarity, and it means you feel supported and you know you're doing the right thing. But there's still sometimes work effort involved. For sure. I'm glad you brought that out.
There's working effort, and I find that if it's if it's right, doors open. Things happen. When I'm not pushing, it's been amazing to me when I listen to spirit, the universe says, yes. And I still work hard, But I trust, and I think that's 1 of the biggest changes for me is trusting. I don't have to hold the universe up. My father, bless his heart felt like if he didn't hold the world up, it was gonna collapse. And I took that on.
The older I get the less anxious I feel about that the more I trust that things will unfold, and it's... It keeps proving itself over and over to be the case. Beautiful. Kim I heard you you have a chuckle when she said, you know, when I trust the door open. I'm curious if you have a shared experience where you have that spirit speaking to you and saying, yes. And then even though there's work and some challenge, the doors continue to open. Tammy and I were Scuba divers for many, many years.
And there was particular scuba dive that we were doing, where we were resting between dives warming up and just resting and We looked at each other. This was on a beach in Mexico, and we said, is this our last dive? And we had never even talked about that with each other. The diving was always good. And yet, it turns out we were both paying more attention to our gauge at our tabs and when all that all the things she pay attention to was a dime.
And both of us at the same time, god this taint and and that was the last dive and not regret or star, and we didn't have to work hard. We were complete. That's the word we is. We were complete with it. We'd had a wonderful time, and it wasn't an intellectual. It wasn't a physical, it wasn't an emotional. So what does that leave? But and that struck me how the same time. We got the same hit. Mh. On a lovely dive in Mexican water and So it wasn't that we had to work hard,
but boy, it was so clear. And 1 thing I know about you having with it... When you decided It was time to let go of the group. You've never had any any regrets about it, it was just so the right thing to do. Wow. I don't know what to say that is such a beautiful story. It was interesting. Spirit is beautiful. When we listen. When we first got back from the process? I was just thinking, we we had teenage children at the time, and we were in the middle of a bathroom remodel.
Which if you're doing it yourself can be a little challenging. It was her observation, our daughter's observation that had we not gone through the process. She didn't think the remodel would have gone nearly as well. You can remember how she said it. Oh, she said something like, you know, before hoffman, I don't think you guys would worked together so well. This teenage girl could see the effects. And she herself went through and and did the process. 2 years later, which was which was lovely.
And our our son does his own work, so he's he's not been AAH and that's really okay. We have an excellent relationship with both of our kids, and I I really credit Hoffman for helping us with all of our relationships. Well said. I mean, what a treat for a teenager to give her parents that reflection. Cherish that in your heart forever. That's that's lovely. And and I back up what you say. It's not everybody in our life has to do Hoffman. There's a way to do work that is
not necessarily Hoffman. And then I understand what you mean by that There's still closeness and work and it's different, and that's okay. Definitely. No, there's been great healing in our family, and I feel so grateful for the closeness that we have We have family vacations. We share the time with my former husband and our kids, and their kids. And we go away for a week at a time and enjoy each this company, which if you ask me 30 years ago, that could happen, I would have said no way,
but it does now. Oh, what a testament to the work and the commitment and the attention and the and the honoring spirit that you have both... You have all done. In reflecting back it just reminds me how influential Hoffman has been in our lives and continues to be. We have a Medicine Wheel garden in our at our home, and at each portal, there's 4 openings to
it. I have the quad. I've got a stone written with each of the quad, the emotional self the, like, the spirit and the body And so when I'm out gardening which I was this afternoon, it reminds me. Just check in, check in. And it's such a powerful and simple process of checking in and paying attention I think too often and for too long, I ignored my physical self, and I'm learning that
it is very wise. There's a lot of wisdom in the body saying, pay attention, and it can be my best friend or it can backfire if I'm not paying attention. And with the end of like, there's a tendency, I think to bash the intellect for being too intellectual. And yet I am so grateful to have an intellect that solves problems. And can read a map and can learn Zoom. Just, make sense out of life. And the emotional stuff I've I have always been touch with more.
And spirit the spiritual self, I feel like I've integrated that into just feeling like I am spirit acting as Tammy. And that is such a lovely way to move through life. That's beautiful.
Me too are really really special, and I am so happy I had a chance to connect with you I can only imagine how lucky those people were for the 14 years that you gave your time and energy to the graduates and I know you do a lot of other stuff you mentioned the threshold choir and what a gift for those souls who are transitioning to have your presence. I'm just so
moved. There's probably other beautiful things that you do, but those are few that you mentioned and just such beautiful souls the 2 of you. Thank you so much, Sharon. I would be remiss if I didn't say my greatest learning from the process. I didn't know I had a spiritual part, and that's what I learned in the first the first time I did the process. I learned about my spiritual self. I had no idea I even had what. And, oh my lord what a relief
quite a release. I don't have to know it all or figure it all out. Something far faster than me. Is taken care. And so that was a tremendous learning. I just have to say that because I could not have gotten at any place else. However remember you came home and you had those Hoffman eyes. Yeah. And it's there's a difference. Yes. I would just also comment that this is another 1 of those that's stuck with you in life.
Case in point the story you shared it of scuba diving, where that was spirit talking to you, you felt it. You heard it. You wanted it. Mh. Yes. And I have never recreated it, which tells me it was exactly the right thing to do. Regrets too strong. We're never even looked back because when were something's right? You just know it and proceed. And other things have opened up for us. I'm thinking like you've seen with a men's choir
we travel the world. I'm excited about whatever new opportunities are around the corner for us because I think that new stuff is always appearing. It's a... Life is extremely exciting and interesting. And I feel so blessed to still be on the planet That is beautiful. Having that openness and curiosity is unique. I want you to to know that your approach to life and your trust and spirit and being excited about the doors that are about to open.
That's a sign of a lot of work that you've done and a lot of surrender that you have and trust. It's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We feel very fortunate. Every morning, we wake up and look, we we got another day. Yeah. We are so grateful we don't take life for granted. And I think the older we get and the more people in our circle who Make their transition, the more we're aware of the precious of life and friendships relationships
it's just nothing to take for granted. It's something to be really aware of really be present and be very grateful for. Amen. On this note, this is a good time to pause, and thank you for sharing. Thank you for your presence. Thank you for all the work you do, not just on yourself, but in your community and all the all the people are across your paths. And what a beautiful love you to share an inspirational love that you to share and have shared with us? Thank you so much for reflecting it back
to us. Yeah. Thanks. That just actually glow inside. Yeah. Put a smile on my face. This has been a wonderful experience. Alright. Well, Tammy and Kim, thank you so much. Hopefully, this isn't the last time we have you on the podcast. It was so sweet. And and again, I'm just moved by by the love you share and the love you put out there. Thank you so much, Sharon. Thank you. You brought you brought out
the beauty, and I appreciate that. Yeah. We get to re experience and the memories as you as we've had this conversation. So thank you so much, Sharing more. Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza and Grass. I'm the Ceo and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. And I'm Ras Rossi, Hoffman teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute Foundation. Our mission is to provide people greater access
to the wisdom and power of love. In themselves in each other and in the world, To find out more, please go to hump institute dot org.