- I think that the important thing is the degree of self-awareness that people have and that we're teaching our children to have. That's, I think, key to the healing process. - Welcome everybody. My name is Drew Horning and this podcast is called Love's Everyday Radius. It's brought to you by the Hoffman Institute and its stories and anecdotes and people we interview about their life post process and how it lives in the world, radiating love.
- Hey everybody, welcome to the Hoffman Podcast, Joe and Nina Woff is with us. Great to have you, Joe and Nina. Thanks - Drew. Happy to be here. - We're excited for this conversation. Would you share a little bit about an introduction as to who you are? - Sure. Who I am right now is a psychotherapist in practice for many decades and primarily I would call myself a consciousness researcher, particularly how consciousness relates to our relationships.
So that's what I'm doing. I'm living in Mexico with my husband Andy Milberg, who has been teaching the Hoffman process for over 30 years. We're still deeply engaged in both the Hoffman process, ongoing work and relationships between people. - We are gonna dig into that. Can you share how you got here, how you got to be doing this work as, uh, being, growing up and coming into who you were? Tell us a little bit of that from a more personal side.
- I am, uh, going to give you the cliff notes, I hope. . So I grew up in the fifties and sixties in the Midwest and I grew up in a kind of a middle class Jewish family who had some curiosity about, I would call it positive thinking. My parents were what you would call, kind of, and ran positive thinkers and uh, so I grew up with that, but not much support for the emotional being that, that I was.
And, and so as a result of that, I kind of drove my emotional self underground and had some shame about it and then didn't have any access to it. I knew something was missing and I knew that who I was showing up as in my high school years wasn't really me. I already had a sense of a false self, but I didn't know much more than that.
So I kind of stumbled along until I discovered psychedelics when I was a teenager and I did a deep dive in the world of psychedelics during my college years and that really opened my eyes to what I'll call my authentic self. That part of myself that had been buried and I knew was there somewhere, but I couldn't quite access it. - Joe and Nina, many people have had experiences where they're exploring recreational drugs. Is that what you're doing?
Are you doing some intentional work around self-discovery with psychedelics? - My involvement in psychedelics was intentional from the get go because before I ever did psychedelics, I had stumbled upon the literature when I was 14 or 15 years old. I know it was before I was driving 'cause I was riding a bicycle to the library. So I had prepared myself as best I could in 1960 by reading the available literature.
And so I spent about five years reading everything and you know, it wasn't, psychedelics weren't as available, but I did my best to learn about what I could to prepare myself so that the first time I took LSD, which was in 1965, I had prepared myself.
I really wanted to know who I was really, 'cause I knew who, how I was showing up in the world wasn't fulfilling, satisfying, and something was missing and I was hungry for that even though I couldn't put my finger on it and I certainly couldn't articulate it. - Wow. And so there you are in that intentional dive into your psyche with the use of psychedelics. What happens?
- Oh, . Well, I found my way to a group of people who were also intentionally exploring the use of psychedelics and that became my world for a few years. And then I felt like I was complete with my exploration of LSD and some other medicines, I'm gonna call them medicines that we were using to explore consciousness. And I went back out into the world and had a career in journalism and advertising and became a mother.
And so there was, you know, a whole chapter there followed by a 15 year period where I went and lived off grid in what I'll call deep nature, you know, no electricity, no running water homesteading and being with myself in deep nature and raising a child as part of a community. But it was a very solitary period for about eight, nine years. Then I came out of that and I had to look around and I knew I wasn't gonna go back into journalism or advertising.
I had to look at what, what I was most passionate about and, and I realized it was still consciousness. It was still not only knowing myself, but being of service in that area. And that's what took me back to school and graduate school, which went on for the next two decades, . And while I was working and I became a breath worker and a body worker and you know, I started back into the world of consciousness exploration. But this time working and helping other people.
- Where does the Hoffman process fit in? Is you met Andy first and then did the process. - Well I met Andy right around the time that he first took the process. We were friends and we were in relationships with other people and our paths intertwined many times over a period of 20 years. It was 20 years, we were friends for 20 years before we became romantically involved.
I knew about the Hoffman process from Andy and even earlier when the process was being taught, not in a group that I knew took the process. I think it was being taught in a series of classes. So I, the process was on my radar. And then over the years I would have people referred to me for therapy who had done the process. I always appreciated the way they came to work with me and the work that they had done in the process. It was like they did the heavy lifting.
- So you could notice a difference in the people who have done the process prior to doing therapy with you? - Oh yes, a striking difference. People had a, a much greater awareness of the impact and the influences of their early childhood life. The education that I would have to do with people, normally they came in, they were ripe in all of that material. - Okay, so what happens next?
- ? Oh, so when Andy and I got together, together, I felt really called to do the process because I wanted to know what he was so passionate about and what had influenced his life so greatly. And that was really the prime motivator for me doing the process.
And I will say that once I arrived at the process, because I love to explore consciousness and I, I'm a great appreciator of the brilliance and the impeccability of the way the process is constructed and the way it holds people and takes people all the way back and enables them, the whole environment and the way the process is put together enables people to take a really deep, deep dive into their early childhood. That wouldn't happen ordinarily unless they were in therapy for quite a long time.
So that happens quickly and I love that . I love being able to just kind of turn myself over and let the process have its way with me. I appreciated the process in going back into all of that. I got a lot out of it as well as my appreciation for what the process can do for people.
- I see. So as a facilitator and a therapist, you had an appreciation of the process for its construction, for its progression as well as for what it was doing for you and for the clients and patients you saw in your practice. - Absolutely. I, uh, I got a lot out of that week , both personally and professionally, I think. - Is there a moment in time that you remember from your week some, was it 20 years ago, 10 years ago? - Yeah, it was, uh, early two thousands, I think 2010 maybe.
You know, one of the most moving pieces for me was, was after the most intense part of the process where we went, went back and grieved losses. That was an extremely powerful day for me, you know, as someone who's was discouraged from deep feeling as a child and also just, you know, living in a culture where we don't really honor grief. The experience and the opportunity to really feel loss at a visceral level was extremely healing for me.
- Wow. I can hear it in your voice even as you talk about it. - Yes, I can touch that place again. - And why do you think that is that it's so accessible, your experience after all these years? - I think that, you know, in our culture we're so, we live above the neck. We live in our heads so much of the time and we're, we actually train our children and ourselves to think our way through life. And we're discouraged from deep feeling, from embodying and feeling the deeper feelings of life.
It's such a great loss. You know, I think personally my journey has been one of reclaiming the full range of my emotions. The process is a brilliant way to embody what was lost in a way that is deeply healing and polling.
It brings us into, you know, when we are able to feel the full range, the depths, the heights, the full, you know, the whole catastrophe is, you know, we could say of our emotional life then we're not owned by denying we're not, our energy isn't tied up and pushing away a feeling or clinging sentimentally to it. We feel it, we know it. It's part of us, it's part of life. And we move through it and it comes and it goes and we feel the kind of suchness, the qualities of it as it moves through us.
It's all part of life. And so are we, - There's a experiential cellular piece you're talking about that we're not just observing it from the sidelines, but we're in the ebb and flow of it. - That's right. It's us. It's us and it's not us. It passes through us and it touches us and we're made more human by it. - Well, I can see the gift you bring to the people and the couples you work with. So let's go there.
Tell us a little bit about the work you do down there in Mexico, you and Andy, but also I imagine you do individual work as well. What happens when you work with people? - Well, I work online. as mo as a lot of us are doing these days doing counseling. And we've created a space for people to come and do retreats and intensives here.
So individuals and couples will come and they'll spend several days with us and we create an intensive for them that's designed for the issues that they want to explore. - Beautiful. So how does that work? What do you focus on that you have found gets the most traction for the healing
that people come to you about? Well, - And you know, in addition to the counseling work that I do, both with individuals and couples, I'm back on the, the psychedelic train I would say, I don't know if I'm on the train, but I'm definitely excited about the potential of psychedelics and our increasing ability to work with them. So that's an area of research for me. I'm back in the research mode with psychedelics and also the ability to work with them when I can.
- Joe Nina, if, if someone came to you and said, why do I need psychedelics? I'm open, I wanna share, I wanna learn, I wanna grow, I don't need those. What would you say to somebody about why you suggest psychedelics related to not just the enjoyment or the, you know, the experience of it, but actually for the healing of it? - Well, I think there's two really good reasons for using psychedelics.
The first is for deep inner exploration for the creative mystical exploration of self and meaning psychedelics have been used for thousands of years for that. They've also been used for healing. And the other good reason I would say to people is in particularly I'm, you know, my focus in my research has been centered around psychedelic psychotherapy for issues like anxiety and depression.
I'm start, I've worked a bit with eating disorders, but primarily anxiety, depression, and now addiction or a addictiveness, let's say compulsions. So I'm really looking at doing work that I can actually track and document to a certain extent in a anecdotal scientific model. - And then the second reason people would do psychedelics - For meaning for deeper ongoing self-exploration. - Yeah, so maybe I missed it. I think I did.
But the first one was self-exploration, the second one - For healing the psyche, the brain gets rewired on psychedelics. We now have access to imaging MRI imaging. And when you look at the brain, not on any kind of drug information, circuits travel in what we would call networks or, and stay in neighborhoods, which is possibly why we tend to repeat patterns and have certain beliefs that are deeply entrenched on psychedelics. The brain's lit up like a Christmas tree.
The receptors are activated all over the brain, which is why we have kind of a multidimensional flooding of visions, insights, intuitions, memories from the past, even going back generations understanding and connections get made that were below the surface and unconscious and we have the capacity to take that back with us and to integrate that into our life and make sustainable change from that.
That's really important because, you know, when you look at the work that people do, for example, in the process, the real work happens in the integration of what people learn in the process and how they are able to translate that into their lives, their work, their relationships, and be able to sustain that ongoing. That's the challenge. - I'm so glad you brought this up.
This feels really important in the sense that the, the number of people who are now doing retreats Hoffman or otherwise, it seems like there's so many options out there. So then if that's the case, well then it becomes also important how you take that back into your life. - That's the real key. It's not about the flashes of insight or the experience, it's what we can integrate and live in our lives ongoing. That's really important.
- That's great. And and part of what you're saying is insights will come at a retreat. It's what they do. Peak experiences will happen at a retreat. It, it's what it's designed to do. The question is, and the rubber meets the road really where, what do we do to integrate that information once we return? So take us there. What's your support of people coming out of these kinds of retreats?
What are the indicators of whether you can make it work for you or whether it dissipates and leaks and it becomes less meaningful? - Research shows us that people who have mystical experiences, insights, and I'm, I'm talking about psychedelic research, but one could broaden it out to the process as well, because the process has an awakening of the spiritual self that's really key to putting all the pieces together in the process.
In a psychedelic experience, people who have a more mystical experience tend to have better lasting results and a better outcome. We would, we could say however, you know, we'll call it a better outcome, is tied to a mystical experience. And then, you know, as far as I'm concerned right now, my concern really is how do I support the people that I work with ongoing.
So in my work I always start with an individual session, then followed by a group session with people who have already had an individual session. So there's a, a real difference for most people in what happens with a group. There's a sense of being part of something. - So you do small group work as well? - I do small groups. I follow an individual session with a small group.
- What do you notice, you know, for people interested in continuing the work, I'm kind of curious about this distinction between the power of an individual session where you have such attention and focus versus the, the power of group work where you have other people on the same path. - I've always done group work and uh, I'm very drawn to it. And I love the potential of groups being the bridge between therapy and life.
You know, it's where like-minded people who are exploring the their own inner worlds can share that with each other. And I think there's great potential in that. And then, you know, now I'm also looking at adding the component of what I'm gonna call an integration circle that doesn't include psychedelics, but is using breath and movement and inquiry to continue to deepen the insights and to weave insights into their daily life. - Wow. So there's such collective experience in that group work.
I love it. The bridge between therapy and life is a small group. Fantastic. - I think that our relationship to the group, to our, you know, whatever, what we're gonna call community, but it could be a very small group of people is where our soul finds reflection that's meaningful. You know, we don't necessarily find that kind of reflection in the community experience. The community experience can be social and there's great value in that.
But in a small group of like-minded people who are focused on deep inner work, our soul and our longing for reflection gets mirrored back to us in ways that are really meaningful and significant. - Jo Nina, you strike me as someone who has so much soul that the depth you bring to the work you do with people is part of the gift. Do you see yourself as deep and how do you help people go deep in a superficial world? - ? Um, I don't know that I see myself as deep.
I see myself as someone who is drawn to explore the mysteries of life. And I'm not afraid of the unknown. In fact, I've always been drawn to explore the unconscious, the unknown, the mystery. Whatever skill that I have, I've developed out of my own exploration. I think it's really important in a world that is increasingly focused on superficial things that I and other people like me continue to hold the space for people to explore these, their inner world.
- You know, you touched on something when it comes to the unknown and I, I sometimes think about the left road, right road map. That's such a, we'll put that in the show notes an example of it. So often people choose the left road and don't choose the right road based on one criteria, which is familiarity. We know the left road and therefore that's where we go. We don't know the right road, therefore that's where we don't go.
So how do you get people to step out into this place that is a place they've never been before? - Well, you know, , perhaps it's just where I'm coming from, which is that I believe that people have a longing, they have a desire and a hunger to know themselves and be known in their authenticity, to know their own authenticity, to find deep acceptance, self-acceptance. In doing that then they offer that to others. I come from this place where I believe that's that's what people want.
So I think the people that want that find me - And if they were to pack a bag of things that would help them get there.
In addition to working with people like you who have that kind of orientation and have been there yourself, given your long history of self-exploration and the work you've done over so many years and your education, your professional expertise, if they were to pack a bag, what are some of the qualities they would put in that bag that would help them venture out into this space? - I have a mantra and I always share this with everyone I work with. Be open, interested and curious.
- That's so good. Say more. - Well I think that's really, you know, when you say pack a bag, what do you need? That's it. You need to be open to new possibilities that things aren't always going to be the way they were interested. That means, yeah, I'm on the edge of my chair with curiosity. I'm really curious about everything. - You know, I've been talking recently to people about the process, considering the process and you know, we could substitute considering deep dives like the work you do.
And one of the things they were, were batting around was to what extent do you have to have experienced trauma or pain or to be in serious struggle to engage in this work. And so I guess I just wanna ask you, do you think there's any correlation for people who've gone through a lot of trauma that helps them dive into the work? Or can they do the work even though they don't come from a history that would say they need the work but they really wanna explore it?
I guess what do you notice in this regard, - Well's? Good question. Drew trauma covers a lot of ground. You know, we used to think of trauma as horrendous things like rape, terrible child abuse, suffering through wars, starvation. And now we've broadened our way of thinking about trauma to include slight things that happen like asking for mom's attention. And mom says, well, we'll just wait till I make the martini.
And that the impact of neglect includes emotional neglect, it includes these, you know, pain, the pain that we experience when our true self is not acknowledged as a child and the stories that we make up about ourselves. So do people with more extreme trauma, are they drawn? Not necessarily. Some people with extreme trauma who've been through wars.
When we have talked to people who have been through the Holocaust, many of those people filed those memories away and kept them locked away so that the generations that followed only then did grandchildren become aware of the generational trauma because their grandparents or their parents couldn't or wouldn't speak of it. So I don't think there's a direct correlation between the intensity of trauma and the desire to work.
- I love how you talked about the lens of what trauma is, is expanded the aperture around how we see trauma has really grown. That it isn't just about severe abuse, but there's also the subtle neglect of not being seen. Of not being known. It's more nuanced, but, but part of what you're saying is equally as potent. - I think that the important thing is the degree of self-awareness that people have and that we're teaching our children to have. That's I think, key to the healing process.
- Yeah. How to bring the unconscious into the conscious, right? - Yes. - Yeah. What's it like for you to, to do this work? I imagine it's, it's rewarding in the sense that you see people open up to their spirits, their their goodness, and also shed things that they aren't, stories that they've told themselves previously that they realize they no longer are. Is it powerful for you?
- It's very fulfilling to be well used in the service of people stepping into their joy and their capacity to love and connect and be engaged. I mean that's, that's a real privilege. - I love the idea of well used to, to be well used in the service of people opening up to all those things. What's next for you as you move forward? You have created this business called Dare to Love. Again, - I'm learning, I'm actually studying, I'm . I am thinking about various things.
One of the things that I mentioned earlier is I may be writing a paper on, on the integration process, how ongoing that can be, particularly as applied to the psychedelic work. And I love working with couples. I love the relational work. I think one of the things that Hoffman does so beautifully is it enables people to really embrace themselves and love themselves unconditionally.
And I think that ultimately loving ourselves is easy once we've moved through the obstacles and loving another person is easy, but what's hard is relationship. You know, when you use said earlier where the rubber meets the road, well it really is. Relationships are where the rubber meets the road and we need skills. We need to be skillful in our ability to relate. And so that's the work of Dar Allah is helping people to become really mindful and skillful in the ways they relate.
- And we really aren't taught that like no one says, here's how you do intimate partnership. So we're all sort of floundering, aren't we? - We only know what we saw growing up and most of us don't wanna repeat much of that , - That's for sure. Yeah. Joe and Nina, what's the, what's the rest of today hold for you? I imagine it's beautiful down there in Mexico. - It is. It's a beautiful day. And um, you know, when we started off, I had a lot of noise here 'cause I have some construction going on.
I've been building a group space, which is down to the punch list. It's ready for people to be in it. We're kind of in the finishing touches of that today. And at some point I'll get out on the lake and take a walk and hang out with my dog and connect with my husband and do some more reading, hopefully some writing - . Joe, Nina, you strike me as like the poster person for lifelong learning. It just seems like you're studying and doing research and reading and learning.
Do you feel that way that you're always assimilating new data, new understandings? - I feel like I'm the kid that I was supposed to get to be. 'cause I was always, you know, early on, very curious, always looking for the meaning in things. , so I get to play my work is my play. So I feel really lucky. Really, really lucky - Sounds energizing - . Yeah. Considering everything that's going on in the world, I feel really blessed. And this is my 80th year on the planet.
- Wait, wait, wait, wait. 80. - Yeah, I'll be 80 in January. - Oh my gosh. What I, I don't know what preconception I had about 80, but you weren't it. And neither will listeners be when they read about you and see you and certainly listen to this conversation. Thank you Joan. Nina, I'm really grateful. - I'm happy to connect with you, drew. - I loved it. - Okay, take care. - Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza in Grassi.
I'm the CEO and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. - And I'm Ra Rossi Hoffman, teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute Foundation. - Our mission is to provide people greater access to the wisdom and power of love - In themselves, in each other, and in the world. To find out more, please go to hoffman institute.org.