- I felt that this approach is so holistic and so complex and takes you from where you are and puts you in a, in this case, me, they, I was put in a, in a washing machine basically. And, uh, I was wash for days and weeks. Even after the process, I still feel sometimes that I'm in that washing machine coming out completely washed and washed, and I wouldn't say clean yet, but that feeling of not knowing where I am completely turned upside down.
- Welcome to Love's Everyday Radius, a podcast brought to you by the Hoffman Institute. I'm your host, Sharon Moore, and I hope that you enjoy today's conversation and that the stories shared by our graduates impact move and inspire you. Gabor, welcome to the show. - Thank you, Sharon, for the invitation. So, - Gabor, let's start with the process. Uh, when did you take the process and what was happening in your life that brought you
to the process in the first place? Yeah, - I was doing the process, uh, this January, 2024 in Canada. I was, uh, struggling with, uh, anxiety and exhaustion and lack of meaning in life, uh, losing myself. I did not really know who I was primarily because I was, uh, working too hard.
I was all around by work and I created kind of a, a robotic mechanistic way of being or way of life for myself, just, uh, doing things, doing and doing and doing and doing one after another on a daily basis, on a weekly basis, on a monthly basis, on a yearly basis. And for decades, I think.
So I ended up in a quite stark situation around mid-November last year when I felt really lost and there were severe bodily symptoms associated with my state in the mornings, during the nights, couldn't sleep well, had insomnia, and had very stressful mornings full of anxiety symptoms of, uh, diarrhea, even vomiting and coughing heavily and lasted for 10, 15, 20 minutes. And I was just living with that, uh, set of symptoms for, for months and years.
And I needed to realize that that's not sustainable and I needed to do something with it. Yeah. A friend of mine helped me to realize that I, 'cause I, I just didn't wanna realize it. My family was telling me, my wife and children, that something is wrong and I need to stop, but I couldn't. So I, I kept going. One day my friend told me that you need to stop. You need to go to see a doctor. You need to consult with a psychologist or a psych even, or a coach in order to understand what's going on.
Because it was kind of a recurring pattern in my life, this feeling of overwhelm and over responsibility and doing things, uh, more than what one should. Basically, I was having two jobs. I'm still having two jobs, but the two together drove me really in that situation and my own expectations from within physically.
So yeah, I decided to stop, not, uh, at the moment when I realized all these things I needed to give a month to myself and my colleagues and my jobs to accommodate, uh, themselves to this, uh, situation that I needed a break. So I arranged everything. It took a month to, to get there. So I meet in mid-December. I decided to, to stop, and I was looking for a place, kind of a retreat. I didn't know what I was looking for, basically at that time.
I didn't know what type of place or what type of program I would like to enroll. I just, and I just knew that I needed to, to go somewhere. So I was looking for various places in Europe, 'cause I, I live in Hungary and I work from Hungary, but I know places in Europe because one of my jobs is, uh, uh, related to European network. So I knew places, but I didn't really feel satisfied. I got recommendations on the 16th of December.
I received an email from a dear friend in Belgium who wrote me a recommending a person, kind of a psychotherapist who could help me. And I realized a special in her email address Goman Institute. And that rang a bell that I must have heard about it somewhere. I, I, I still don't know where, but that rang a bell that I knew about it. But I heard about it, and, and this must be something special.
So that night I couldn't really sleep and break up because, uh, I was anxious where I would go in two weeks or three weeks just after Christmas and New Year's. And, uh, started taking a look at my phone and searching the web and Googled Offman Institute. And I found the, the US group and looked at the website and I that this is it, this is what I was looking for. Uh, I read everything that I could read on the, on the main page and also the sub pages. And I was instantly looking for a date.
But it was fully booked until April. I was kind of sad. Okay, it's not, not my time, but then there was a little link. I, I, I still remember it toward the end of the, the front page, but I found a link to Canada. When I clicked on it, I realized that there is an event in January, early the January at sanctum retreat, uh, near Calgary. There was one slot available. I took it as a sign that if there is one slot available in January, I need to go there.
And, and there were two more surticious moments that my friend told me, and I checked with her whether she did the Hoffman process or it's just a recommendation of a person that she did it just a week before her 50th birthday. And I couldn't believe that that week, Canada was just one week before my 50th birthday too. So I, I said, okay, this is more than a coincidence. This is meant to be.
And the other thing was that I was really looking for something cold and snowy and really wintery, uh, magical in a sense. I I was looking for a magical place and the magical experience. And I got that because when I arrived to Calgary, it was zero degree, no snow, everything dark and, uh, gray. But just the day after that, uh, the snow started falling and snowing heavily, and it was a beautiful snow, uh, at s sanctum.
And the temperature started dropping heavily and it became, uh, minus 40 degrees in SIUs, which is about the same in, in Fahrenheit. So fast. I know. But it was really cold during the weekend by the end of the week. But it was magical, really magical. - So a couple things, strike me. Going back to what was happening in your life. You mentioned a combination of anxiety and exhaustion, but you also mentioned lack of meaning and lost myself.
And where my mind goes is, from what I understand in your life, you do very meaningful work, right? - Yes, I do. I would agree with that, yes. - Can you tell us a little bit more about what it is that you do? - Sure, sure. I'm, I'm, I feel really fortunate and I'm privileged to live the life I'm living and to work where I'm working. Uh, there's a Buddhist University in Hungary, Burma Gate, that's the name, which is the only state accredited Buddhist University in Europe, all over Europe.
Also state financed. It's a Buddhist university. I'm, I'm very close to Buddhism and I've been studying Buddhism, Buddhist philosophy, and even practicing Budhist meditation for decades.
The other work I'm doing is I'm managing Director of Mind and Life Europe, a sister organization to Mind and Life Institute, uh, that resides in the US And we have a similar organization in Europe, uh, working in the field of interdisciplinary, uh, dialogue between sciences, uh, philosophy, humanities and contemplative traditions, especially Buddhism, but other traditions as well. And, and managing the operations there. I studied and learned a lot about the mind and the brain.
And as a philosopher myself, I also read a lot of books, how the mind works, how the mind operates, who we are, we human beings, that has, that has been my life, uh, for more than 30 years. So I thought with my great intellect that I know a lot, I don't, I wouldn't say I know everything, but I, I know a lot. And still, I ended up in a situation and I couldn't understand why. I couldn't figure out why.
'cause I was doing mindfulness and meditation and all sorts of things to ease my tension in attention. Uh, and pretended retreats and programs over the decades. But I somehow felt disconnected from something within the end. 'cause I was probably focusing too much on emptying myself, which is important in, in the Buddhist tradition, feed out, finding a deeper layer of, or a deeper core of meaning and existence there, which lies behind all the phenomena that we experience.
So I, I somehow lost that connection in certain moments, even during my Buddhist practice and other forms of practices. Uh, 'cause I also studied other forms of spirituality. I, I found, uh, for moments, or maybe even for days, some connection with what we may call or self or, or spirit or soul or, or essence. But it was momentary. And, uh, I could not really sustain it. I did not find a raise and the tools to, to sustain it in spite of all the knowledge and, and the practices I was doing.
So yeah, that feeling of emptiness in a negative sense, not in a, in a, in a Buddhist positive sense. And that feeling of not knowing who I was, was, uh, was striking. - Do you think that's why, you know, you also mentioned you had these symptoms, you know, vomiting, diarrhea, mornings with anxiety, and, you know, you said months and years.
Did it take years because of this, all the practices that you have and you know, you're committed, you're devoted, I'm gonna do more practices, or what do you attribute to it taking years for you to hear your body's message? - I think I was suppressing my body and I was suppressing my feelings, my emotions. I was too much in my head and I was doing everything in my head and with my head, I would say with my intellect.
Yeah, just too powerful and, uh, too clever and too sophisticated, too avoid or to relegate or give space to something else behind. Besides, uh, besides the, actually it, uh, you know, created a lot of meaning and success in my life. So I need to be grateful for its achievements, but I am not, not only that part. And I know that I was dumping everything that my intellect didn't like into my system, into my body. And, uh, I basically drove myself, uh, crazy.
And my body resist and revolted naturally. And I understand that it was a natural indication of, uh, unsustainability basically. - Well, I'm curious if, if I've gotten the picture right here. You've had, uh, years of these mornings with these symptoms, you get to the process. Are you having those same symptoms in the morning when you're there? Or what was the journey like in regards to your body, uh, once you started doing this work? - It was, uh, it was totally different.
It was so surprisingly new to me, even, uh, before the process started. The process started when I registered and when I received the first email, and when I received the form to fill. And when I realized all those patterns that I needed to face, because there were good lists there, and I just needed to go through those lists one by one, my goodness. And I ended up with, I don't know, 200 more, more than 200 patterns.
And the revelation that came with, with that, oh my God, I always thought that I'm over my childhood. I, that I, that it's done, it's finished. And I solved everything I needed to. Turned out that the truth is the opposite. That there was a lot of patterns and memories and, uh, hidden symptoms that I lived and inherited from my childhood that were still staying with me. And that was a huge revelation already.
So when I realized that after two days of, uh, work filling the form, I felt so ready to jump into the process. I could hardly wait because it was, uh, just before Christmas when I filled the form and I needed to wait for, uh, for two more weeks to get to Calgary. I felt ready. And, uh, I was probably over enthusiastic already. I remember the first morning, those introductions, there's, they were really great, but I wanted to do the work already.
And then it started, of course, and it was, it was so different and so new and surprisingly new, especially the, the, the bodily, uh, past the expressions, uh, the expression work and the internal dialogue between the intellect and the emotional self and the body. I felt that this approach is so holistic and so complex and takes you from where you are and puts you in a, in this case me, they, I was put in a, in a washing machine basically. And, uh, I was wash for for days and weeks.
Even after the process, I still feel sometimes that I'm in that washing machine coming out completely washed and washed. And I wouldn't say clean yet, but . But that feeling of not knowing where I am completely turned upside down. That was my feeling, and that's what I needed to be honest. I'm just so stuck. And I just so used to my daily rhythm and I was just so used to my patterns and I didn't even see them. Didn't even see them before that form.
- Yeah. I mean, anybody who lives with that level of symptoms for years, it probably got to a point of, that's all you know, is to wake up feeling that way and, and then go on with your life. - Exactly. Because that lasted for 20 minutes in the morning, and then I started working and everything was fine. You know, I was, uh, kind of an actor on a stage, properly acting throughout the whole day, 10, 12 hours a day, five, six days a week, sometimes more.
I, I consider that morning session or period like a, a normal story, uh, leading to my acting. I know. And I know, and I was told of course, that it's not normal. - Well, and thank goodness for this friend who was able to speak to you in a time where you were able to hear it. - Exactly. I mean, she was trying to talk to me for two years and my family tried to talk to me about the same time, about the same time.
'cause she, this friend of mine learned about my situation and my conditions from my own daughters when we visited her in Switzerland, uh, two years ago. She asked how that is and they told her how I'm, I, I wouldn't have told I was feeling 'cause it was not an issue. I did not consider it an issue. Oh, - Good thing. Your daughters mentioned it. - Yeah, exactly.
- You know, you speak of your intellect and how you, you know, you have such a powerful intellect and you thought you knew, and then you went into something completely different, like the process. Was your intellect trying to resist it? Or how did you put your intellect in the backseat just for a couple moments there? - I I think my intellect was tired by that time. My intellect was tired of myself. I think the big breakthrough happened in mid November when I allowed my friend to help me.
And when I realized this situation that I need to have a break. So that was the moment when my intellect basically allowed me to look for something else and to be different or to find solutions or to, yeah, to, to go forward and face this void and the truth. Yeah. And, and by that time, my intellect was just, uh, ready and didn't, didn't judge, didn't criticize, didn't evaluate, didn't try to analyze or even strategize or understand intellectually during the process. I was fully present there.
- Was there a a moment that you would say was, uh, very pivotal or magical moment during the process? - Yes, and there were many, uh, but I think I was basically looking for an emotional breakthrough. Uh, during the first few days I did the expression work and my body worked really hard. I had, uh, massive aches, in my arms and body. Uh, I were really hard and uh, I think I did a good expression recession, but my emotions did not really show up.
'cause I had a deep, I had deep understanding and even compassion felt already, not only that time during the process, but ways before and way before that towards my parents. Many years ago, I kind of understood maybe intellectually, but not really from the heart, but still understood what they went through in their own childhood. But that moment during the process when we were sitting on a bench with my mothers and fathers spiritual self, they were kids.
I was a kid around 10 years old and just talking to each other like kids do. And when I heard my mom's story and my brother's story, what they went through in their childhood, which were really traumatic experiences, that was so touching and emotional, that that was a breakthrough for me. I, I was crying. I have rarely cried like that in my life. I think I was crying then and I understood everything they went. I understood why they became the parents.
They, they came and that they did everything they could and the best they could to help me and support me and raise me up with their limitations. But there was limitations and patterns came from their childhood and from their parent. And that was just such a deeply compassionate and even forgiving moment. That was, that was a huge breakthrough.
And I didn't really expect, I, I knew intellectually that compassion and forgiveness are important and you know, I I I did practice those, but, but it was fair at a totally different, deeper level. I understood in that moment. And through that process I understood the importance of compassion and forgiveness towards them. But also later on, towards, uh, myself and my own patterns of, uh, perfectionism and, and, uh, over responsibility and other things that had me a lot that moment.
And the other one that was very similar to that was when we were in the integration ceremony and I cut the ties. It was very powerful moment. And, and when I saw my parents who are divorced now have been divorced for 20 years now, but I saw them dancing together and that was really, really, really a healing moment in my soul. 'cause I was always struggling with their tensions, uh, in my childhood. But when they were able to do that, their soul, uh, were able to dance.
I, I know that that's the real truth between their best selves and those liberating and the great healing moment. - I know exactly the moment you talk about that, uh, moment always brings tears to my eyes, imagining these two souls coming together from a place of joy and love. And from there we are created. And that's really special to start to think about, to just pause and let that in.
- Exactly. And I, I felt their real and their desire and their wish to have me as their baby and to even I felt their, their commitment and their wow that they will give me the best they can. And I know they did. That was, that was felt. It's a complexity in that very moment. Yeah, it was beautiful. - How has your relationship with them been impacted post taking the process? - It was very interesting because as I mentioned, I was pending the process just one week before my 50th birthday.
So when I came home, I was still in my integration weekend at a hotel, uh, at the Calgary Airport, um, taking a shower in the morning when I got a, a huge revelation kind of a message. I was doing the court check during the shower and I got a message from the spirit that go and visit your parents on your birthday. So I, I made the wow that I, I started writing then journaling everything that I received in these forms of messages.
So I wrote it down instantly and I made the wow that I commit myself, myself to these messages and the house. So I arrived home and I told my wife and children that we talked about many other things, of course, after the process, but I also told them that I've got this message and I would need to see my parents. So we went and drove to the little town nearby where they live, about, uh, two and a half hour drive from Budapest. I went and saw them as a surprise.
I had a better connection with my mother, although it was not very frequent and much less frequent relationship with my father. They are still alive. I went and saw them and told them that I'm grateful for my life and that I received their, their support and will and everything they could give me during my life. And I'm 50 and I need to express my gratitude. And it was a very touching, emotional moment. In both cases, they live separately.
So I visited Mitch, uh, one after another and my younger brother too. It was just pure joy and gratitude and love felt towards each other. I know they loved me and I, I know I also loved them and that the patterns, uh, were the obstacles. But these moments of love really demolish those barriers no matter what your history with your parents are and what your history with your own patterns and their patterns are. That was like a moment of eternity still stays with me on a daily basis.
And I know that it stays with them too. They may not live long, but I'm confident that this memory will stay with them until the last moment and that to stay with me too. It was a physical manifestation of the experience I had in that integration ceremony. And it was so uplifting to live it as a real moment in life. Not only as a visualization or as the inner experience, but as the real moment in life. I, I cannot be grateful enough for that inspiration that the process gave to make it happen.
Did you say your kids were with you? My kids were, and my wife were with me in a town nearby, but I went to see my parents alone. They were at school because it was, uh, I think a week, a weekday. So they came home from school. We went into a car and drove there, arrived around four o'clock and then I went for, it was another little bit less than an hour drive to see my parents. And I showed up around five o'clock my mom's place and uh, around an hour later at my father's place.
And then I drove back to the hotel where my family stayed and we spent the evening together celebrating my birthday. You must have felt amazing. Yeah, yeah. It was, uh, it was an extraordinary day altogether and I got so much support from daughters and my wife to, to make it happen. - So I I was just gonna ask, were did your kids know what you were doing? - They knew. They received a beautiful letter from Kofman Institute, before my process.
And my other daughter is studying at the university in the , but she was at home during those weeks, which she had the winter bake, then all of them speak English, so, but my wife doesn't, so they translated the letter read by word to my wife and it was fun. It was amazing because when I came out the process and started texting them that I'm, well and how are they doing? They stayed, uh, silent, basically just sending one word or a little emoji.
But they didn't start asking how I am and how was it. And I was surprised, why don't you ask ? Even when I arrived home for two or three days, they didn't dare to ask anything because they, this letter wrote that I'm going through a process deep within that I may not be able to talk about. And they completely respected that.
They were like little angels just, you know, tiptoeing, around, not daring to ask anything, but I was really communicative and then started sharing what I can share of course, uh, after a process like that. And we have a very transparent and open relationship with my wife. So I told her everything basically. Especially because she doesn't speak English and she doesn't have the chance to attend the process herself. So I try to give her the essence myself.
- How has your relationship with family changed since the process? Is there any change there with fa with partner and your kids? - Yes, yes. There's more openness, more fun. There's much more play and, uh, jokes. But also I think that somehow this process works in the family system as well. Not only within me or between me and my parents, but in the larger family system as well. You know, I talked about my passions openly and transparently to my daughters and what I understood, what I learned.
I also see some of those in their own life. And I don't tell them that, you know, this is a pattern you have, but they joke that they tend to, you know, make fun with me, that, oh, I'm now behaving like you daddy. It's a pattern that I receive from you and it's totally true. So they started, uh, realizing those things and kind of releasing their own ties that they have with me and my, my wife, their mother, and they go through some deep process.
I see. Uh, and I don't know whether it's normal or not. I haven't studied it. I would need to understand it better. But I also see that this collective set of symptoms that I live with anxiety and exhaustion are coming up in their life. That they are going through the same types of symptoms. 'cause they allow themselves to experience them and to hopefully get over. I hope that it's a healing process for Tamera. - And the last thing I I'll touch on is, is your work.
You know, I find it very interesting and not uncommon to speak with people who are doing very meaningful and purposeful and even soulful work, and yet their patterns get the best of them, right? So here you have these patterns of over responsibility. You have more than one job, you're probably in leadership in both of those places and everything, you know, so here you are doing all this profoundly aligned work and yet your patterns are exhausting you.
So I'm curious, how has your work life changed post-process? - Yeah, that was the biggest question for me, pre-process. 'cause I thought, and I felt that I would need to make radical changes during that break that I would need to come up with a decision in the end. So post-process, I went through a, another process, uh, with with Dorothy Holden, uh, who was the teacher at, uh, at , the focus, discovery, uh, program, because I wanted to really dive deeper into my patterns related to work.
I had that purpose in my mind that I will solve the puzzle by the end of that process, by the end of the break, basically by the end of February, so that when I go back to work, I, I would come up with a decision that I would stop this or I would stop that. And that did not happen. So that big decision that I was kind of looking for did not happen, but something much more subtle and much deeper happened that I started living the days and the tension that comes with work differently.
I started I think, feeling differently and being different in both places. And that leads to some changes in both places, especially within me. I relate to work and management and my leadership role letting a lot of things go. More being than doing. Of course there's a lot of doing still, but trying to do the doing from the being rather than the, the other way around. And that is changing the landscape and helping me and helping I think both organizations.
And I don't know where that will lead me and where that will take me. At one point. I feel that I may still need to make a decision that on the longer run for many more months and years, it'll not be sustainable to sustain have both in the same way as I'm responsible or involved. Now, even, even if I change my way of being radically, that may not be enough because one of the patterns I, when I was a university student, I studied at 4, 5, 6 different programs at the same time.
And I always had two jobs at the same time. Wherever I worked, I needed to have another one. And I think that's not what I need to do in the future. So I'm trying to create a spirit led vision for my transition in the coming two years, I would say, and make some changes, uh, step by step here and there in order to make this decision that I expected to come earlier. Kind of a big radical decision.
But it's not coming like that When I tune into my spiritual self, even that thinks that it should be a transitional process and well, well managed and well thought through process that takes into account my own needs, but also the needs of the two organizations that at this point in time rely on my presence. But I, I know that it'll not stay like that forever. - I think two things that I find very moving and important for people who are in your situation, one is an openness.
You thought it would be, I'm gonna have a decision. Do I stay? Do I go? And instead what you learned was just stay open. It may not show up in such black and white terms, and I think that's liberated you to a certain degree and allowed for you to do what you said. What you called was more subtle rather than do I stay or do I go, how do I show up differently? And you mentioned you feel different and you are being different and as a result things are shifting.
I think that, you know, for those of us who are inspired by those words, it allows us to just kind of be in the unknown and to show up in a different way. Both feeling and being and continuing to just assess how does this feel time to check in, how does it feel now time to check in.
And so it's just a little more spacious and a little easier to navigate than making a really tough decision of do I stay or do I go with work that is really meaningful and important to you and even rewarding and fulfilling to you, right? - Yes, yes. That's the point that I feel both so rewarding and fulfilling and the communities are a beautiful, great people. And yeah, there is a, there is a sense of connection and the sense of attachment even.
But I also needed to realize that sometimes decisions are to be made in this learning process and sometimes the opposite happens. So it's not the question whether you need to make a decision or not, it's the question when to make a decision and when not to make a decision.
But in both cases, the clue is listening to, in this case my inner guidance, what I receive as a message every morning through project check or what I appreciate every day in the end of the day, - And this is coming from a person who suppressed what your body kept trying to tell you for years. Now this same person is saying, I just listen, , your body must be so grateful and so relieved to know that that's how you are.
- Yes, yes. And there is a, there is a definite change there and, uh, much more lightness, and joy. Still some, you know, little tension here and there, but that's, I think normal and I should be compassionate towards those moments, which are not the same, never the same as before. And yeah, I just need to pay attention, maintain awareness and everything else. - Good boy, thank you so much for sharing. I think it is very, very relatable.
Your story, especially for those who, who do meaningful work and still struggle and get to that breakdown like you did, and then, uh, break through the way you did and, and know that it doesn't mean you have to leave these people or this work or whatever it might be that is actually meaningful and aligned. And I, I think that is a really important and beautiful, uh, message you just gave us all. So thank you for that.
- Oh, thank you so much Sharon, for the these, uh, words and also the encouragement perhaps a lot to stay on the right road. - Exactly. Stay on that right road. And, and also I like that you pointed out there's still some tension every now and then, the these things aren't gone. We just now have tools to navigate. - Exactly. And it's a dynamic process. And if you continue being like that forever, there's no static end to it. That's one of the key learnings for me.
- Beautiful. Good boy, thank you so much and we'll look forward to, I'm excited for people to hear this beautiful conversation. Thank you. - Thank you so much. Uh, thanks for the invitation. - Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza in Grassi. I'm the CEO and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. - And I'm Ra Rossi Hoffman, teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute Foundation.
- Our mission is to provide people greater access to the wisdom and power of love - In themselves, in each other, and in the world. To find out more, please go to hoffman institute.org.