And then you have this 1 tree or beer at the end and I looked depressing and I was like, that's me. And you know what? In a few weeks, it's gonna be spring and those flowers are gonna come out and it's gonna be green full of flowers. And that's me. I change. I have seasons. Welcome to Loves everyday radius. A podcast brought to you by the Hoffman Institute. I'm your host, Sharon Moore, and I hope that you enjoy today's conversation.
And that the stories shared by our graduates, impact, move and inspire. Please be aware that this episode references substance abuse, Please use your discretion. Alright, Ez. Hello. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Sharon. So As, let's start with what brought you to the process. When did you take the process and what brought you to the process? What was going on in your life? Okay. So I took the process? At the end of March of this year.
What brought me to the process was I actually was introduced to the process and was recommended to both of the process a year prior felt, like everything in my life. I tried to I try to get out of it and do things my way until I end up kicking in. What happened was in my relationship, With my wife. We were going through a lot in the year prior, and I had started seeing a therapist. From when I started seeing him started telling me about the hoffman process, he himself had done it twice.
I told him I wasn't as sick of him as him. I could probably only do it once and get my shit together. But I had a call with the office and sort of pushed things off and pushed things off. I finally signed up and the first date available was 6 months later, which I grabbed. Once I did the homework, which was like a month before, I fell into this deep deep depression and anxiety, which is very not like me. Because of everything that was coming up in my homework.
Rich obviously, run away once I entered the process. I guess it was a fear of, what's gonna be happening there and all this stuff coming up beforehand. But that's what... That's what brought me to the process. Well, and and and if we have listeners who have not done the process, I think you bring up really... Beautiful point, which is the process starts long before you get physically
there. Sometimes it starts when you do your first page of your homework, But sometimes it starts when you're having that conversation or when you're researching it, there just as something that happens before and after as well. I'm curious. You said you you waited a year. And then you said that that that's kind of common. What what's that about? It's probably
a mixture of fear. For me. It was a mixture of fear, and it was a mixture of I can do this on my own, Which was a trend for me for a long time, you know, real men don't ask for help.
We figure it out on our own. There were times in my relationship that my wife was recommending that I see a therapist, and I kept pushing it off where it was sort of a theme for me of and we could get into it because it's a pattern that comes from my childhood of recognizing things and other people, but not of myself. When it's brought up to me, I to sort of get standoff ish, the criticism even if it's constructive. I take it as me being a failure so I put up that defense.
I'll show you. I can fix it on my own. I never do fix it on my own. I might for a minute, I might for a month, how am I fixing something within myself that was created inside myself? I probably meet some outside help. And so how did you transition from the pushing it off, the fear, the belief that, oh, real men don't ask for help to finally get to the point where it's like, okay. Help me. So that's...
2 things, I think. It's once I make a decision that I'm doing something, I'm all in which means like, once I decided, and once I came to the process, I was willing at that point to do anything. You know, throughout my life, I've had quite a few bottoms, let's call it. And when I'm at my bottom, When I'm getting help, I'm getting help, it's just to the point of me actually doing it.
What happened for me was that year before my wife had gone into a treatment center to get help for things that she was struggling with on her own and within our relationship who was a substance of abuse treatment center. Now at that center, they had a family weekend where I had come to do family sessions separately, and then together. And it was in that weekend, where there was this sort of light turned on for me of things that I was doing
that were not okay. The guy that ran that weekend was really the first person in my life that was able to get to me. He was able to call me out on my bullshit, and he was a hundred percent right. He was able to open me up. It was such a powerful weekend to me that at the end of the weekend, I went up to him, and I said I want you to be my therapist. That was the individual that became my therapist and had recommended this process.
I guess that's really when it started. But then I'm going to I'm going to find any way to get out of anything. It was my natural self to just continue pushing it off for breast. Until I finally made that decision signed up. Once I'm in, I'm all. All in. And so are you able to pinpoint 1 or 2 pivotal or magical moments while you're at the process? Hundred percent. First of all, Sharon the entire process was magical. It was magical to me. It's still... You know, it's not a long time, but it's
still within me every day. I don't forget that price us. I think about it at some point every single day. It was magical to me number 1 house so many different types of people coming from different parts of the world had completely different upbringing, religions, ideas are coming together in 1 environment and how close we get. And how we're
really so the same. And what I realized was, and and it goes... I think for me and possibly other people also in the world is that when I'm with other people, and when I'm interacting with other people I could do 1 or 2 things. I could either compare myself to them or I can identify with them. And when I compare myself to another person or to other people, there's always differences. Because there there are we're different. But when I stop and when I to identify with somebody else.
No matter what that identification is. It brings us closer it brings us together, and it makes me realize how like I am to other people and I'm not so different. Because my whole life, I thought I was different I was different, by my family, I was different than the people I was around. I was different than anyone. I missed something when it was given out to people. I missed it. I'm different.
And so for me in the process, it was just this bonding with so many people that when you come in the first day, you think you'll never be able to bond with and how close you get. That was my experience. 1 of the moments that were extremely powerful to me and emotional to me was 1 day when we walked into the bar, just by walking into it it was very un fighting and emotional for me. The shades were drawn. They
were candles on. It was just a moment powerful moment for me, coming into that room and sitting in it on and everything that went on that morning and the room was extremely powerful to me. It was it was a moment, but really sticks out to me that I'll never forget I live with. I I have a few children, but I have 1 son that that hasn't spoken to me in many years. And a lot of it has to do with my past. You know, I'm not gonna say I haven't harmed people. I've home a lot of people.
I struggled for many years with addiction, and that brings a along a lot of hurt. Like, we learned in to process hurt people, hurt people, I've done a lot of that. My life is different today, for a long time already. But, you know, I've of course harm and there are people that still don't forgive me.
Part of that moment and the work we had to do was look at different parts of our life on the left road and on the right road and doing that work, my right road life was where it was a point where my son, when my wife and I were getting older, my son had built on an extension on his house for us to live. I lived out the rest of my life with my son, the way it played out just was extremely powerful, and was given to me through this process and the work that I had done in this process.
And is that different than what your relationship is like, with your son today? It's completely different. It's the opposite. It was very powerful to me. There was another experience which I was outside I did the process in Connecticut, and it was towards the end of winter. And I outside bundled up, or was called outside, and a was noticing something very interesting.
We had an exercise that we had to go outside for, and during this exercise what I noticed was that the whole driveway, I guess it was parking lot was lined with trees they were these pine trees that stayed green all year, tall trees. And it was surrounding that whole area, and then in the middle of those trees, there was like a break in into trees and set back from it, there was another
tree, and that tree was beer. It was middle of the 1 third, there were no leaves on it, and I started counting the trees. The amount of trees that there were was exactly the amount of trees that are in my family. So my parents, my siblings, their spouses and my grandparents from my mom's side and my dad's side. And then there was this 1 tree, that was setback back and beer, and that was me. It was empty.
What I noticed was is that these trees were green and full of life, and it was the winter I come from a family of perfectionism. Everything had to be perfect. In a way I struggled with perfectionism also, but on the other hand, I totally threw that away. I had to be different. These pine trees that are always green were are perfect. They always have to be green, no matter what the season is. And then you have this 1 tree or beer at the end and it looked depressing, and I was like, that's me.
And you know what? In a few weeks, it's gonna be spring and those flowers are gonna come out and it's gonna be green full of flowers. And that's me. I change. I have seasons. It was a moment for me to realize where I come from who I am and what I'm doing. To me, Am like a tree. I go through my seasons. Sometimes on I'm beer and some on some full of flowers. That was a powerful experience for me as well to show me that I'm human, I go through emotions. I go through feelings. I go through change.
I can change. I don't need to be so hard on myself. I don't need to be perfect. Even in the pro check I love it because to me it's so not me. Just notice how your body's feeling. Don't try to change anything. Growing up, You have to change. You have to work. Hard on you said know if something's feeling wrong, change No. I noticed it. What season are you in at this moment? Summer. I don't mean physically. I mean, metaphorically. Metaphorically. I'm in summer. Yeah. What does that mean?
I'm so grateful. I'm First of all, I'm so humbled for this experience, and I'm I'm just grateful. I'm in a a healthy place overall. You know, since I did the process, my wife had done the process, and we have a whole different life together, is 0 chaos. There's 0 chaos, there's events that happened that we learn how to go through together. We learned how to communicate together. Obviously, this everyday life happens, but overall, it's such an amazing life. But really is...
My wife and I have 2 daughters, 8 years old I'm 5 years old. And after we did bath Pajamas, we said, you know what, We're going to the boardwalk. We live now for the summer of few blocks away from the boardwalk. And they have a isis there, and we said, the you know, let's take the girls. And we took them and after we were done, we had isis on the beach, then we came home, and my wife and I both cut our girls to sleep every night. We lay with them. We do an
exercise about the day, bridge. My wife learned that hoffman. As we were leaving the boardwalk, my daughter was, like, let's skip to the car. When I started skipping with my girls. And that's something I would never... I'm so up tight. When we were laying in bed my daughter turned to me, she calls me Tat for Daddy. She said, Ta, bien know? You're like a little kid. And I said what. And then my other daughter said it. They both said you like a little kid. You skip with us. You play with us.
Do you know what that meant for me, but my child could see me as a little kid? I was the opposite? I was always, like, structure play was nonexistent. And for them to notice me playing with them and telling me, I'm a little kid was I wanted to cry. It was it was exactly what I wanted to gain. From this process and in my life, but my child could tell me, I'm like a little kid. I'm struck by. You know, couple moments ago, you told us that you've overcome addiction.
And then to imagine just a couple days ago, sure you are with your kids reflecting back to you, the child and you, the playful and you, that's not easy to go from dick into this. So I'm curious if you can walk us through your journey around that. I was the guy. Chin rent a couple of dollars left in his packet and rent to the store to buy my child diapers and had a decision to make. Because I needed to drink. I might buying diapers for my 2 year old, or am I buying a battle.
What kind of decision is that. It's not even question. And I was the guy that my hand was reaching for the diapers. But somehow the battle ended up on it. I'm leaving the store we're so humiliating for me. But I wouldn't even go home and I would disappear. And I would go on what they call a run, so to hear that I can play with my children today, and that I'm a little kid is it's a completely different life, but that's not where it started. For me it started as as a kid.
You know, III believe we all... Have... You know, we talk about it during our process. That's spiritual but spiritual self and we all have that within us and what I learned is that we all as human beings have a whole within us. I'm we need to fill that hole to be okay. We try filling that hole to make ourselves feel good and what I learned, And my experience was is that whole is a spiritual whole a god shaped hole. It's a spiritual
hole. I'm only spirituality for that hole. And from a young child, I felt that something missing in me that not fitting in. So for me, The addiction didn't start as a addiction. It started as medication, started as feeling good, feeling right. I always say, for me it was that I it started off, but I wanted to feel good, then it led to I didn't wanna feel at all, and then I need it to use just to feel. Just to be okay. I started getting high, like a teenager, like most teenagers.
You know, there's so many people that I got high with. That that it came time to stop and they stop. Or for me, it, you know, they say there's this invisible line between partying and addiction and that lawn, you obviously can't see it. So I don't know when I crossed it over, but once I cross over that line and through addiction, there's no coming back. There's no coming back no matter how much I want to, no matter how much I try to
there was no coming back. And I've had a, you know, periods in my life of of being clean and sober and and working on myself and trying get them breath. Every time I went back to it, it just got worse. And worse in this moment in your life, you've been sober for how long? I've been sober for coming up on 18 years in December. Wow. You know, I was talking to my wife the day. III realized that I I'm sober today longer than I've used. Wow. This is huge.
This is huge. It's unbelievable to me in the true sense of the word, not believable, how I can be sober this long and how I can stay over? 18 years means you've must have had some rough moments or some life challenges come along the way. How did you navigate it? Tools. I know that once I experienced sobriety, the way I experienced it, you know, because there was so many times where I would either question myself. Am I really an. Maybe I'm not people would tell me.
Norm people don't question if they're an alcoholic renter. Just doesn't happen. And my sponsor once told me He said, I would rather believe that I'm an alcoholic and die and find out that I wasn't. Than try to live my whole life convincing myself that I'm not 1. And that stuck out to me because I see unfortunately people doing but experiencing life, the way I experience it today as opposed to the way I did experience it I never wanna go back there, and I'll do anything not to go back there.
What I find amazing with you saying that is... Know, I never wanna go back there, and I'll never... And I'll do everything I can to go back there. And yet in the physical realm, you you are back in your childhood town. Right? Where you live? Yeah. Not at the moment, but I go back there. Yes. Talk to me about that journey of You went full circle. You... It started there. It got probably pretty bad there. And then you came back as this version of you. Can you can you walk us through that?
Of course. So I I up in a small town that was primarily orthodox, Jewish community, extremely orthodox. I grew up without television. I grew really in a bubble, not knowing anything about the outside world. I call at the outside world outside of that community. I up knowing only what I was taught from a young age, It didn't sit right with me. Like, I didn't feel it. I didn't believe in it. Something didn't make sense to me. When I got to see
what other people were doing outside community. It just looked so attractive to me. From 6, 7 years old. I was, like, I don't want this life. I want bad life And when I was old enough. Old enough was 12 years old for me, 13 years old, I was doing everything I can to... Experience a different life. I had dropped at a school before I graduated elementary school, so I... I can graduate elementary school. I graduate High school. I lived a different life than the entire community. I started
partying, I started leaving the religion. I started using drugs. And because it was such a small community, people knew and everybody knew they saw me. When I was about 19 years old, within this community, they... Created this board of members this board had basically came and took as he and chased him out of town and said, you can't be here. I had to leave the pound. It was sort of, like, gangster forcing me out. It was nothing I could
do as tough as I was, and... Of course I was a tough kid, There was nothing I was able to do about it. Except leave. A lot has happened from the age of 19 years old till 27 years old, whether it was, drug dealing, partying, homelessness, a lot of money, no money, just searching, I was just really a broken soul with nowhere to go. During that time, I I had a lot of different experiences.
Whether it was being hospitalized, in treatment at a treatment, married, divorced, business, no business, just a life of an addict at the age of 27 when I got sober, I got sober, and I was living in California. At had about 4 years sober. These members of that community that I grew up in had called me up. There was a, 19 year old boy, from the community but
had overdosed and died. Who I knew he was in treatment with me when I was in treatment and then left, And he ended up overdo and dying and it's family and a few community members had reached out to me and asked me if I can come back and open up a sober living in the community in his name, which I did went back to the community that I grew up in that had asked me to leave I opened this over living. I had opened an Aa meeting in the
police station had given me. A room, but I can host Aa meeting in and slowly coming back to that community, people had seen me before and people have seen me now and slowly people started reaching out to me for help. It's amazing to me that you know, for the past 18 years, I dedicate my life to helping people on the community.
I've, helped hundreds of thousands even people get help and and gets over, over these 18 years and through this process and through this journey, I remember the first time, 1 of the people that were on the board that had asked me to leave the... Not not asked me. They didn't ask me it was it was stuck harshly had called me if I can help them with a child of those I looked at it in a way, like, I laugh about it. I joke about it. But it was really a way of me giving back of making an men's
keeping my side at the street clean. Not trying to focus on what they did to me but that I can help. To me that was the bigger res over these years, every single person on that board I've helped. And every rabbi you know, they call me just today. Rabbit, I called me from lead pounds for help for someone. It's beautiful. How it comes around. Let me make sure I understand. In your childhood at home, there was that board. They... Not nicely. It
sounds like they kicked you out. You went through your journey as you've spelled out earlier, you hit the bottoms, the highs are higher, the lows are lower. And then you got sober, and then you went back to your community, back to the child at home. And now since then you have devoted, your time and energy, helping others that are facing addiction. Correct. That is incredible. To me it's it's an honor really is. Where I go is, could the 20 year old?
As he imagine that this would be the as in this phase of life? The 20 year old As he didn't think he was gonna be alive at 21. Yeah. I'm also curious. You said you were raised in an Orthodox community and at that point. You just kind of it didn't land and you didn't believe it. Now that you've had 18 years of sobriety, what role does religion play in your life? Religion plays a huge role in my life today? There were years that, you know, all those years that it played no part of my life.
I had... A very powerful spiritual experience a little while after I got sober, sort of like what I talked about before 4 with the quad check. My whole life, it was... You can't do this. You can't do that. Everything was so strict and so rigid and so militant like, and that doesn't work for me. It just makes me wanna run away from that or fight it. When somebody tells me just notice. It's okay. Or you did that? It's okay. Let's work through it. Right? I can deal with that.
So I was running away from that whole life of what religion was or what I was taught. When I was about 1 or 2 years sober, somebody had invited me some for a religious experience. And I said, nope. You got the wrong guy, and he said I promise you come with me. It was in a different country. It was experiencing Russia in a different country in Ukraine. He said I promise you come with me. You don't have to be part of it. You don't have to do anything, just show up with me.
And I went with him. Those few days, I'm not gonna say changed. Religion for me, but it woke me up to a whole new idea of religion, but I had never experienced which was a foundation. There was a building block for me to say, you know what? I want to know breath. I had a very powerful experience with the idea of god and religion and what it was is that part of religion, you know, part of life, part of spirituality
I get religion for a second. Is is having a relationship with a aha power, a higher spiritual. Being, the way I looked at it was, but I'm building a relationship here. When I have this idea of what that power is, and I connect to it. So I looked at it sort of, like, when I'm a relationship with a person who I love so much. I wanna spend as much time with that person as I can. Right? But if I don't get a to spend us a time with that person. It's...
I didn't do anything wrong. I just missed an opportunity And that's the way I sort of looked at religion was I have opportunities throughout my day to connect or to do something religious. Or to connect with the religion. If I don't take that opportunity, it's a missed opportunity, which is not what I learned what I learned was it going hell. You're a bad person. You're horrible. That's not what it was for me. It was... I missed an opportunity, and I'm gonna
try to grab the next 1. And when I look at it like that, where it's... Opportunities that I have and connect to. I can vibe with that in our... And that works for me. That was the building blocks still till today. I'm not I'm not at all the way. I grew up religious wise. I'm not like my family. But the relationship between us is powerful. It's 1 of connection mostly and acceptance. To me, this is exactly what I ever wished it could have been. Wow. You know, I I see a thread.
Here both in that moment where you were asked to go, open up a center back home and here when you were asked to, hey, come come explore this. It seems to me that you had 2 things. You were open and willing, which is huge, and you had choice. And you were open and willing so you went and explore this, and then you chose to bring this into your life. Hundred percent, which is all 3 things that I never had before. I was closed. I was unwilling and I had no choice.
And as a result, you've been able to have a relationship that feels right to you with the higher power. And you've been able to have a career or even if it's not a career, you've been able to spend your time healing and helping hundreds of thousands of people. All because of those 3 things. Not hundreds of thousands, but hundreds if not thousands. Powerful, nonetheless. Yes. I mean, but again, it's that, I I keep saying both kind of... Because I say open and willing is 1 thing, but you're
right. It's 3 things. Open. Willing and then choice. Huge. And I bet if we paused and thought about it, we'd probably find a lot of other mini crossroads in your life. Where it was the recipe of those 3 things that puts you on to use Hoffman Terminology, the left road Who? I would love to keep talking to you. Why we stop there with this beautiful thread of those 3 things openness, the willingness and the choice, and the good that has come out of those 3 things in your life,
so powerful. The I I really thank you for sharing this story, and I'm excited for it to fall on the ears of people who will be inspired and moved. Thank you so much, Sharon. Thank you for believing in me. Thank you for inviting me. You know, I Today, I get invited. I used to be asked to leave, and now I'm getting invited. It's it's beautiful. I puts a huge smile on my face. What what? Story of coming full circle and resilience and saying yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Beautiful.
As he thank you so much. Thank you. I'm so grateful to be part of this family. Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza and Grass. I'm the Ceo and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. And I'm Ras Rossi, often teacher and founder of the Hop institute foundation. Our mission is to provide people greater access. To the wisdom and power of love. In themselves in each other and in the world. To find out more, please go to Hop institute. Dot org.