- Ugh. - Yeah. I'm seeing suffering as a doorway now. It's much more of a doorway in, I've had enough experience of looking back and sometimes it's only in hindsight that I realize that on the other side of that suffering has been something beautiful, such a deep growth in learning and increased capacity for me and for holding the suffering of other people. - Welcome everybody. My name is Drew Horning, and this podcast is called Love's Everyday Radius.
It's brought to you by the Hoffman Institute and its stories and anecdotes and people we interview about their life post process and how it lives in the world, radiating love. Before we get started, we wanted to let you know that this episode contains sensitive content that details the near death of a child and may not be suitable for all listeners. Hey everybody, welcome to the Hoffman Podcast. Sadie Hannah is with us. Sadie, welcome. Glad to have you here with us.
- Yes, thanks. I'm excited to be here and talk with you. - Will you introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about who you are, your story. - Yeah, so now I'm primarily a Hoffman teacher and doing lots of coaching through that, but I also have had sort of a parallel path to my professional life, which is as a nurse practitioner, that was sort of how things started. And as time has gone on, the balance of how much I'm doing of one or the other has shifted over time.
But that's essentially what I am, what I am doing professionally. I work for Stanford as a pediatric nurse practitioner, um, with children of cancer. That's taken on a bit more of a secondary role as I've expanded more into my work with Hoffman, which has been something I really love. I'm also a mom of three. I have three beautiful children, 12-year-old, 9-year-old, and a 3-year-old. I've been married for 17 years. My husband's name is Brian.
- I mean, I first wanna ask a little bit about being a nurse practitioner to children with cancer. What is that like? - Yeah, it's something I think I never thought that I would do. I knew that I would work in science. I knew that I loved working with people. I knew that medicine seemed to be a way of doing that, and I think I went into it wanting the least amount of emotional connection. I re, I remember before I did any, had any real experience.
I was like, I'm going to be in the or where the patient's asleep and I don't have to feel sad about them or about what's going on and not have the emotional connection or I just wanted to be like a technician, I think. And I couldn't have gone further. Opposite of that, just shows how much I didn't know about what really fulfilled me. So what is it like?
It's, it's the most connected, sacred and beautiful work and at such a time of crisis, at such a time of vulnerability and yeah, I really love it. - I imagine the, the parents are as much your patients as the children. - Yes. And that has evolved and changed as I've become a parent and identified more with their experience.
Sometimes the pa the patient, meaning like the child is the teacher, they're our teacher and we are, you know, taking care of ourselves as they basically show us how to handle something. Most of us have never gone through and to show up smiling and wanting to play. It's an inspiring experience of resilience for sure. - I was thinking they're probably the most resilient of all the people involved in the experience. - Sometimes. Yeah, sometimes you know, the parents too though.
I mean, it's hard to describe the, the beauty and the light and the love that comes out when what seems like the world is crashing down and it's not all of that. I mean, there's some really difficult times too. - So then you take the process. What led you as a nurse practitioner to sign up for the Hoffman experience week long? - Yeah, that's a good question. I've considered that. I think I was young. I was 31 I think, and a young mother. I had a 4-year-old and a 1-year-old.
I think the short answer is it was the turning point when the way I had been functioning and, and coping and, and living my life was no longer working. Sometimes we say patterns have an expiration date. It was when things started expiring and it really became clear that I wasn't happy. There were some other things. I think it was a period of time where I had somewhat lost myself in motherhood. I had lost connection to who I really was very deeply identified with being a mother.
There was a really traumatic event that happened in my life at that time that made me question the mother that I was. And then it was like, what am I without that, if I'm not what I thought I was in that way. - I imagine that's a common experience for moms. What happened for you? - I do think it's a common experience. I think that our culture really sets it up too.
It's like there's this innate drive to care for and to sacrifice, and I think there's expectations all around that reinforce that and make it really difficult. But the specific event was my son, my 4-year-old at the time, had a serious accident, a near drowning. We were at a big party like a company picnic, and he went into the pool without, he took his floaties off, um, without me noticing. And he went into the pool and tried to swim by himself.
And there were people everywhere all around in the pool, all around the pool. And no one saw, no one noticed. I didn't notice I was distracted helping somebody with something else that I lost track of the most important thing, which was keeping them safe. And he slipped under and, and I didn't even know, I didn't even know that it happened until he was pulled out of the pool and he was completely unconscious blue.
I was at the other end of the pool from where he was and I just remember hearing my husband Brian screamed my name and I ran over. I don't, I don't even remember getting there. I just remember being over top of my son and seeing his face. He looked dead and doing CPR, like I re I resuscitate him and he is fine, like , he's, he's fine. We, we saved him. But I think what happened is that I so closely confronted what it would be like if you weren't fine.
I saw his face, I saw his eyes open and blank. I saw his face blue in Ashton, you know, like my hands felt the bounce of his ribs as I was like compressing his chest. So I knew, I knew what it was like if he had died. And so I grieved that I had some degree of PTSD around it, but I don't, at the time, I just knew that I felt so deep in grief and suffering, even though he was fine. And I felt so much shame about having let it happen. And I felt totally alone in that.
I don't think anyone I knew had any idea what I was experiencing. And I was really up to that point. I had lived my whole life being good, you know, being all good, everything's good, like pretty private with the things I was struggling with and portraying a state of competence and maybe even perfectionism. And that was all like, I couldn't deny that anymore because I felt so shamefully inadequate as a mom for having let that happen.
And so many people were like, this is not your fault, you know, it's a human mistake, blah, blah, blah. And I got that. Like, I, I could intellectually understand that, but I just kept coming back to the question, if not me, then who? Like, if, if I am not there to keep them safe and who, whose job was it? I think I just felt really deeply, deeply broken.
And that whole year following that, and that's when I heard about the process, it was one of the things that I was trying to do to, to fight, to get myself back. - What's it like to talk about this now? - I don't know if it's coming through the microphone, but I feel shaky and yeah, a little vulnerable. I also feel so much more grounded and steady. I used to really have a hard time talking about it without just crying and com and completely getting quiet.
And it used to be a lot more traumatic than it is. - So you went to Hoffman with that, a trauma in a way, still living in your body, that PTSD. How'd the process help you digest that? Heal that? - I think it helped me more than just in healing that, 'cause I don't even think I knew I went there to heal that I think that I just knew that I was suffering and it helped me see, see myself, know myself.
I don't know if I really did before that I had been, well actually I say that, but I also realized, looking back, I have always had a, a sense of myself from a very young age. So it's hard to have both of those exist in the same place. , - We can both not know ourselves and also on another level, deeply know ourselves. There's the unfolding that clearly was happening for you. - I think the process helped me know and love myself.
It helped me experience myself as love and as the best of who I was. And it really clearly helped me see my choices. It helped me really understand the power of choosing how I wanna be. I don't know if I knew this at the time, but now looking back, I think it's all of this work has also helped me be willing to confront suffering.
I think that that was probably what I was avoiding back when I was in college saying I wanted to, to work in the or where the patient's asleep and I don't have to feel a sense of loss. I think I was already avoiding it. I think that in working with children who are potentially dying, often not, but certainly fighting for their life where the risk of death is, I think I've had to confront loss, potential loss and suffering.
And that's exactly that suffering is what I was confronting in that year following my son's accident. And now I think I view it totally differently. - What's different for you about how you understand it? - Suffering? Uh, yeah, I think I see it. I'm seeing suffering as a doorway now. It's much more of a doorway in, I've had enough experience of looking back and sometimes it's only in hindsight that I realize that where on the other side of that suffering has been something beautiful.
You know, such a deep growth in learning and increased capacity for me and for holding the suffering of other people. - So take us, take us to your process as you navigate all those emerging things. What, where's a moment in time? I kind of wanna be a fly on the wall in this experience of, of what transformation looked like in the moment for you during your week - To experiences come to mind.
I've done it twice because I did it in teacher training too, but I'm, I'm going back to my original process. There's an experience of seeing, experiencing your spiritual self. It's, we call it the light journey, right? So it's this experience of this is me at my essence, this is me at my best.
This is the truth of who I am, the part of me that's eternal, the part of me that's been in me since I was that little three-year-old, sitting in, in my mom's car, looking out the window like contemplating life . But that was with me through each one of my experiences. And I had just had this, this amazing sense of awe that I still feel, and I remember my teacher asking me to describe what I was experiencing, what my spiritual self was like. And I remember her saying, hold on to her.
And I instantly in that moment knew that this was why I was here. Like, I needed to have the experience of recognizing something really wonderful inside of me that could not be taken away. That's one sort of pivotal moment. I also remember a moment in one of the expressive pieces after just completely just in a real cathartic way, letting out all of this primal negative energy and then an experience of seeing something greater.
You know, the, the light is the way I think of it and experiencing that even after all of that, the light is still there. It can hold anything. And I, I just completely crumbled in tears. Like that was it, it was like, I could be so upset with myself. I could be so disappointed in how I behaved. I could be so mad, I could scream and tantrum and just like whatever, so uncontrolled and messy and still worthy of love and still connected to something beautiful.
And yeah, that was a really profound experience for me. - I think we even say despite all that you just experienced, you can also notice the light is still there - And it just, I just sobbed . I just was like, oh, because I knew it, I knew it. It was this moment of like, of course it's still there. It was both a revelation of like, holy shit, it's still there. Excuse my language. And a knowing Yes, of course, of course it is. - And your body reacted to that truth.
- Yeah, it was, it was a profound sense of relief. Like a laying down of, of burden surrender, that's probably the word. It was a, a full bodied surrender. - So how did the trauma of that afternoon get processed during your process? - I don't know that it fully did, other than I, I still carried it and I, I think it gave me a really sound starting place to address that trauma, which I worked with over years after actually.
But what I left the process with is a sense of I am worth fighting for, like I'm worthwhile in terms of making myself a priority and healing this. And that gave me the strength to confront the trauma over time. I still for a long time had, you know, nightmares and triggers. It's not a magic fix, but it is an incredible starting point. I left with the capacity and the tools and the resilience to take things step by step and continue to grow in a way that's been really, really powerful.
- Hmm. Sadie, it's almost, well, I guess I'm noticing the thing you got from it is also what you share with those, you guide through the experience, but whatever doesn't get healed in the process is not a problem. It's not really something to worry about because the momentum, the energy, the agency that grads leave the site with continues to act on behalf of their own healing even after they leave the process. Is that part of what you're saying?
- Yes. I think life is ultimately the teacher life is what's helping me process and heal. There's so many little lessons and moments, little triggers, little bits of that suffering that are, there's doorways all along, but now I see them as that and can take advantage. I don't think I had that or was doing that before the process. I was in darkness. I was really feeling such deep grief and I think I was on a, a path towards completely sacrificing myself to everybody else's expectations.
So I think that's what I'm saying is that the lessons continue to unfold. It's not perfect after, but recovering from meeting, you know, missteps, integrating what happened, learning and growing that in itself has become a really exciting pursuit. It seems weird. There's a lot of people that I talk to that probably are like, what are you, what I get.
I'm like, I'm excited about that potential challenge, even if it might be difficult because it means something great's on the other side of it, you know, the the opportunity to surrender fully and learn and see what's possible, you know, the mystery that comes after that. That's what I like to do now. , I like to do it . That sounds kind of funny, but it's true.
- It's energizing to step forward into life unafraid of what is going to be presented, what's gonna challenge you, what's gonna trip you up because you know that you'll work through it and you'll get to the other side. The beauty. - Yeah, I I wouldn't say unafraid.
It's definitely, I'm definitely afraid a lot still I get scared, but I have definitely come to trust myself, trust my ability to navigate and to recognize the moments as opportunities and maybe I'm just willing to see what's on the other side of it so much more now, even if it's scary at the time. - Fear it sounds like isn't immobilizing, it's recognizing and, and moving forward anyway. - Right. And I think the unknown to me, but possible that I could learn on the other end of it.
I mean, Costa Rica, we could talk about, that's another like a perfect example, but the the idea that there's something that I don't even know that I could experience or learn on the other side of it is so exciting that I, I'm like passionate about that even though I know that it might be a hard road to walk. - Well, let's go there. You, you and Brian picked up your family and headed overseas to Costa Rica for a year, possibly longer. What was that journey like and how's it going down there?
- Yeah, it's going wonderfully. I've lived in the Bay Area my entire life, literally my entire life. I'm 41 now. It had always been sort of a pipe dream. Wouldn't it be fun to go live in Costa Rica for a year? It was kind of like, yeah, that'd be so great because we visited here and loved it. It just really became like, why not? Let's do it. The kids are at an age where it would be perfect. What do we have to lose? Let's see what's on the other side of it.
And I think that versus committed predetermined path to my future, the idea of, yeah, it's gonna be really difficult, it's terrifying. What if all this stuff happens? What if we rent a house and then get there and realize we rented something on the internet that didn't even exist and we show up and there's like a dirt lot with no house. Like all these , these questions. What if our kids get bit by a poisonous snake? What if, what if, what if, what if? And yes, , let's do it.
So we're here, we're here for an undetermined amount of time. You know, that's part of the change in why I'm doing less of my career in medicine and, and that's also been a bit liberating to lean into because I've done that for so long that I'm running to see what else is, what's new. - God, I'm, I'm reminded of the word you used at near the beginning of this conversation an unburdening. And it sounds like part of what you get when you unburden yourself from patterns is what's new?
All the new exciting adventure that awaits - And balancing that and doing it in a way that's safe and stable and feels secure for our kids and sustainable. That's like a maturity that I've leaned into is I've always been like, let's go do fun stuff. But having a, a clearer head around what are the potential challenges? How will we meet them and how will, how can we move forward? - What's it like Sadie to have had such a powerful experience?
We're, we're going back now to you as a graduate of the process. You've had such a powerful experience and then you come back and train to be a Hoffman teacher. You know, I haven't asked this question of teachers before, but what's it like for you to have had such a powerful experience in the process and then go back and have a job teaching that thing that was so impactful for you? - Ah, I feel so deeply connected to what I'm doing. Yeah, it's an interesting thing.
I'm considering how that's, that's not the case in my other work, right? Like, I've never had a child with cancer, I've never had cancer, I've never, so I'm being a quote unquote expert in something that I haven't actually done. And I'm not saying I'm an expert in the work that's required to do the process, but I certainly have my own personal experience as a place to start from for what I deeply love, all of what we do in the process. It, it's important.
Each piece of it I hold with reverence and I feel really deeply connected to the students even though their stories are different. There's something universal in coming to do the work at a particular point in life where you need healing or somehow feel compelled to explore what is on the other side of something that's blocking you. So I I I relate to them in a way that makes it very easy to connect. - Do you ever share your story with your students? Any components of it?
- Yeah, bits and pieces of what is maybe relevant for where they are. The parts that I think might be relatable, I don't actually know that I've shared in a total way like we just did with anybody. Like I don't think I've shared it in such a like, here's the whole story like I just did with you .
- Okay. I just appreciate you saying that because what you're saying is you've shared more of your story about who you are and what's transpired than perhaps you have with many, many people in your life. Wow. Vulnerability, hangover. Well - Actually I feel exhilarated , I feel honestly like this is one of the things I'm leaning into even more is what would probably has been a pattern of holding things really close to my chest. Not always, but certain things. - Awesome, thank you.
- This is a side note. I'm looking out my window. Window. There's like monkeys literally climbing through the trees, right? Like jumping through the trees right in front of me. - , that's pretty cool. You know, you're in Costa Rica when monkeys are climbing through the trees out your living room window. Sadie, I wanna go to that liberating, energizing feeling you have as a result of telling your story fully.
Do you think that's part of what students get when they confront some of their basic core patterns? Shame that what's on the other side is that kind of vitality that we're all craving for in our lives. - Yes. Vitality and I think part of what feels so exhilarating or energizing is energizing. I feel like to look back and see, oh that makes sense, this happened and that happened and that happened. And to see it as woven into a whole story, it makes a lot more sense.
And I have a sense of this like interconnectedness of things in a way that makes me feel really open and connected and, and confident about whatever else comes. And I feel like maybe that's also part of what they get is rather than, oh this thing's awful and I'm gonna focus on this a sense like even with patterns, right?
Like, you know, there's ways of being that are causing problems, but also on some level you learned that in a way that kept you safe and now going forward you, your awareness of that can help you meet life differently. So, so when it seems to like integrate, I just find that exciting. I hope what students get is a sense of like peace with what's happened and maybe more presence in what's to come. - So you've said this a couple times now and I I just wanna highlight it.
Part of what I hear is you have been able to, over the weeks, months and years of your life, look back and understand the arc of your story, the web of what transpired, and put it into context as a way of making sense of it. Is that how you see yourself doing it? - Yes, and I think that I'm left with a sense of meaning in some ways around it.
It helps me feel that things aren't random and that moments are precious, that sometimes they're woven into a bigger picture or a bigger story, even if I don't know what that is in a way that lets me feel held. It's like back to that thing, like the light's still there, it's like, and all of this crazy life is happening in the setting of just this being held in love. I'll give you an example of, of one thing I've thought of.
I look back and I think about Emmett my son and you know, he's like, there he is not breathing, his heart is stopped very near death, very near death. And what if I wasn't there? What if I didn't know exactly what to do on a body? What if I couldn't respond that quickly with that much clarity? Like, so then I'm like, holy shit, did I become that so that one day I could do that so that one day I could be comfortable with a degree of suffering grief so that I could do this and then what's next?
It feels that way. - Wow. There's a synchronicity in that. Does Emmett know his story? - Yeah, yeah. He remembers parts of it. He remembers what he was trying to do when he was trying to swim by himself. I think he remembers the helicopter and he definitely remembers some things in the hospital. - Does he talk about it? - Not really, unless we, unless it's come up for some reason. I don't know how much it lives in his experience now.
I, I don't think very much I've asked him based on whatever developmental stage he was at. I think he gave the best answer that he could.
But I'm curious as as he grows and is able to communicate or like be present to different nuanced things, if, if it comes up, - Well, Sadie, I guess as a teacher now and having put aside some of your medical nurse practitioner work and leaning more fully into Hoffman teaching and coaching as a teacher, what do you know to be true about students that go through the process and what makes them have a better process as opposed to just an okay process?
What makes them have a better life post-process as opposed to just kind of forgetting it or moving on from your insights and your experience in the work, what are the strains that you have put together that would be helpful here? - I think what's coming up is, you know, coming back to this sense of trust and, and surrender. I think as students first come into the process, they know a bit about what they're doing, but they really have no idea of, of all of what's coming.
The students I find having the most profound experiences are the ones that are able to fully lean into the trust, that there's a reason that they're there and that there's something important to learn and that they're all in. We talk about that in, in terms of surrender.
I think the surrender aspect of it is important in that, in the process, but also that post-process, the surrender to meeting life and learning, leaving the process at the beginning rather than thinking you're, you're at the end and you're fixed, - What else does surrender mean to you? Because we, you've used that word, but what does it mean when you say it?
- One example I I think about or or sort of like a felt embodied experience of surrender that I have noticed on a regular basis is when I'm working out. So in a workout, in a voice is just one example, but in a particular workout I almost always start the workout with a sense of, oh, I don't wanna do this or, or like, oh this is, this is gonna be a lot or when is this gonna be over? Oh, only this much longer.
There's a resistance that's there in the beginning there's a certain point that I've come to like, recognize where that changes. There's this like surrender point or like a tipping point or a turning point where instead of that I just am like, okay, this is what I'm doing and then I relax and I I start to enjoy myself and I start to see like, oh, I only, I only get one more round.
I, I am grateful for the, the opportunity that I can do this and that I can, you know, that my body is the strength to do this and my experience completely shifts and then it can almost be like euphoric. So I'm realizing that that surrender point is something that I can shift depending on when I decide to open or when I decide to surrender. And I'm seeing that in so many other places like in conflict with my husband or my kids or with life situations.
Like if I can remember that at, at some point if I surrender to my own spirit and capacity, this can look totally different and I can modify or I can make that point come sooner if I open and then things become an opportunity and life becomes a teacher. And I think that is what is exciting post-process and what I want and I like to help students see.
- I love it. I see that through line with workouts, with your own experience of going through the process and owning all of the painful parts of your existence and the light is still there. I see it in your story of Emmett in a way. - I was just gonna say and, and I realized that prior to that experience with Emmett, I spent a lot of time avoiding things that I resist. Like I just would avoid the pain altogether.
- So this, this Sadie who will persist in the face of discomfort and pain and wanting to avoid and will do it anyway because she knows that she'll get to the other side where anything positive is waiting for her. She wasn't like that pre-process. - No, I don't, I don't think that I was like that before. Yeah, and so it's, it is nice to see it full circle. - I imagine for your, your kids and you and Brian, that's every day's a new day.
I mean, talk about the metaphor of what you're talking about moving to a strange new country and a different language every day is an adventure, isn't it? - It is. I was just also reflecting on how in terms of true transformation, how much more comfortable I am with real emotionally charged topics to the point. But that's kind of all I wanna talk about.
Sometimes , I think it's something grads grapple with a bit post-process is like, I've had this deep profound experience and now things that are surface are so much less interesting to talk about. I'm very willing and like enthusiastic, like let's just go there, let's talk about things. And sometimes that can be difficult.
I think sometimes it can be hard to connect with people that are not wanting to have those type of conversations and that where a lot of the world is, sometimes somebody wants to complain about a job situation or whatever and I'm like, yeah, but what about this? I wanna go deeper. , - You've claimed your depth owned your soulfulness, what a powerful spirit lives underneath those patterns. - What's a beautiful way of saying it? And onward it goes.
I've claimed the depth that I know, but where's the bottom? - Well, part of what I hear is how much you've changed over the course of your adult life and you know, navigating your three kids and your marriage. Sometimes marriages get challenged when one person changes like that. I'm imagining that you both have made growth transformation change a shared commitment in your marriage, in your lives. - Yes. It's definitely been both a shared commitment and at times a source of challenge.
It's not the easiest path to walk sometimes I think commitment is an important word, the commitment to continue to keep going and patience - For your commitment to this conversation. I am grateful Sadie, - Thank you. Thanks for talking with me and for holding space for the conversation. It's been fun.
- It's always such a unique place for teachers to come onto this podcast and share so vulnerably, so I do think it's important that people understand that we're walking, walking the path just like students are. - Yeah, for sure. That's true. - Sadie, what's in store for the rest of your day down there in the jungles?
- , I have a coaching call in five minutes and then we're taking the kids to a night market, which it's like a farmer's market kind of situation at night with live music and just kind of a fun vibe and early bedtime. - That's great. Thank you Sadie. - Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza Insi. I'm the CEO and president of Hoffman Institute Foundation. - And I'm Ra Nsi Hoffman, teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute Foundation.
- Our mission is to provide people greater access to the wisdom and power of love - In themselves, in each other, and in the world. To find out more, please go to hoffman institute.org.