To everybody. It's Drew Horn. Susan Bo is our guest. I'm reminded of the term wounded healer. It's a person deeply committed to healing others and aware and inspired by and motivated by their own healing, Susan is a wounded healer as in a way, all Hoffman teachers are. We all have patterns. I wanna share a few things. 1 is that there is mention of suicide here, and so just be aware that this may not be suitable for all audiences.
Also, there is so much mentioned in this episode and it will be in the show notes. So do check those out on our website. Please enjoy this episode with Susan Bo. Welcome to Loves everyday radius. Podcast brought to you about Hoffman Institute. My name is Drew Horn. And on this podcast, we catch up with graduates of the process.
And have a conversation with them about how their work in the process is informing their life outside of the process us, how their spirit and how their love are living in the world around them, their everyday radius Everybody welcome to the Hoffman podcast Susan Bo is with us welcome Susan. Thanks so much, Drew for having me. I'm really honored to be here. Will you just share a quick story about that name and the pronunciation? Yeah. So my last name is Bo, and I was explaining to you. It's very
American eyes because it actually is French. It would be pronounced Purdue, and it means beautiful place. And people always mispronounce my name, Ol and say different things like that. So I would correct them and say, no. It's Fo, And 1 time I was taking classes in college, and I had a anthropology professor who first day of class says, Susan Boo, and I say, yep. Bo, and she kinda goes, you know? And that was the first time I was, like, Oh, maybe maybe I'm not saying it Right?
You know was a sort of she was just so horrified that I didn't even know how to say my own mask. Name properly. So... So I I want you to share a little bit of your story, but I also want people to have a sense of who you are. So I am an S. I'm a citizen of a Red Nation in Northern Minnesota. You... Now are the healing justice director. You've been working with indigenous communities over the last 17 years and various projects, training, facilitation.
And in the last 7 years, your focus has been helped communities, organizations and individuals understand the impacts of unresolved individual, ancestral and collective trauma. And also to develop strategies to support the healing from that trauma. And so I just want to welcome you to this podcast. I know that you're also a 2016 bush leadership fellow. You're an ace Ce interface master trainer, a certified mind body medicine facilitator.
You also have a master's degree in public policy, from the University of Minnesota. That's a little bit about the things you've done, the accomplishments you've made. Will you will you share a little bit of who you are in your story? Yeah. So I really came to this healing work when I was pregnant with my daughter who... Now is 9. Or she will be 9 at the end of May. And so that journey really started with taking the adverse childhood experiences or Ace questionnaire survey.
And it's a simple 10 question survey that says, did this happened, yes or no if it did, you get 1 point, and, you know, you sort of, like, get at the end of it, this quote unquote a score. And it wasn't until taking that. And I vividly remember standing at my kitchen counter taking it and looking at my score, of, I had a pretty high score of of 8 and thinking, So maybe my childhood wasn't. I don't wanna say atypical because, unfortunately,
trauma, and aces are very common. But to have such a high a score really began to help me understand that, and I wasn't just a super sensitive kid that that there really were some really difficult and traumatic things that had happened that hedge... Shaped and impacted me in ways that I was still very much reeling from, but didn't understand because at that time, I already had 2 children and I was about to have my third. And at least I was in a better place than I was when I was younger,
growing up. I really grew up. Very depressed, and I can, you know, talk more about that later. But, you know, you start always reference where you are from where you've been. And so because I wasn't in that super dark place. I was like, yeah, I'm good, you know? But looking at that Aces questionnaire, I realized that I had a lot of healing to do if I didn't wanna pass these patterns onto my children. And that began the journey for me.
And from there, I got trained as an ace interface presenter initially designed a project to bring the Ace interface information to tribal communities across Minnesota. Because at that time, we were talking about historical trauma, But we were not talking about Aces and how historical trauma led to these a cycles in our communities and what those a cycles
like what those impacts were. So we were, you know, in our communities, people were working on issues of addiction and domestic violence and Ic, and all sorts of really difficult and important topics, but we weren't understanding what was driving those patterns in our communities. And so through the tribal sciences and community wisdom project, which is a mouthful. We began to bring that information
to our communities. From there, it became an Ace interface master trainer, and I had done some training with, Rob And, who was 1 of the original c principal investigators of the Aces study, and then laura a porter out of Washington State, some So that began my healing journey. And then from there, had some opportunities to work with some plant medicines down in South America, which...
Really helped me to understand just how much healing work I had to do and began this journey of meditation and mindfulness practice is learning those, really beginning to integrate them into my life and saw how things started shifting and changing for me. So it it became less and less about the trauma per s and more and more about understanding the impacts of the trauma so that we could begin to understand what did we need to
focus on for healing? What were those pieces that we're missing and as I think about my own healing journey? And as I teach about healing, it really comes down to within many indigenous communities. There's this concept of the medicine where We understand ourselves to be... First and foremost, spiritual beings in human bodies, having human experiences, and human thoughts, human emotions, And the importance of the balance of those... All those parts of ourselves, recognizing the interconnection
of them. And so... In my healing journey, starting with connecting to spirit, continuing to move through shifting my relationship with emotions and thoughts and then finally now starting to reconnect with my body, which we can talk more about later. So I really see healing as a less about becoming something we're not, but really uncovering and getting back to the essence of who we are and what we are. And so that's really been the frame that I've used for the last 6 and a half, 7 years of of
my own healing journey. It's so interesting though because I... For I sort laugh when I think about where I started and as a little girl for a very long time, I wanted to be a veterinarian. And I started out when I went to college, I started out in Pre vet, and I ended up pregnant at 19. And had to shift you had this sort of, moment. Do you wanna be a mother? Or do you wanna be a vet because I knew vet school was gonna be really
intense. And so I'm so far from that school, but I am so grateful for the work that I get to do, and I have such a passion for it because this healing journey that I've been on has really helped me to see the possibility and
potential. I love that I get to that gets to be the focus of my work at Indian and collective is to help the the staff that work there to be able to reconnect with themselves all those parts of themselves in authentic ways and really step on this healing journey, which then ripples out beyond ourselves to our families and our communities.
With Yeah. There's a real mirroring there, your own work, your own trauma has informed as you do the healing work informs the larger healing work you're doing in your communities. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I... I feel like, for me, often authenticity citi is such a strong value. And so unless I can... Unless I have an ex... My own experience with something, It's really hard for me to teach it.
I love to learn, so I'm constantly learning new things, but it's I don't feel like I can teach it until I have had my own personal experience with it so that I can share. What have been some of the challenges I've I've experienced with that. What have been... You know, some of the benefits that I've that I've gotten? What are some of the ripple outs that I've seen in my family or in in the work that I do. So, yeah. They're... For for me, I see
all of it very much connected. And that also then helps really it it helps drive me to continue to do my own inner work because I know how powerful that is in those ripples that go out across my family and across my community and across, you know, reaching all of the individuals that I work with and the
individuals that are connected to them. So that's the thing too oftentimes we may have impacts with people that, you know, on people, we we will never meet because of the impact that we've had on someone that they know. I'm loving that, and I'm imagining that moment. Of you at the kitchen table taking this Aces test and seeing that high score, and then looking back of into your childhood and having some epiphany as you have your own children and your mom So take us there for a bit, you
mentioned that we could go there. What was your childhood like that... Eventually led to the need to do the healing work. Yeah so I used to think for a long time. I just have a bad memory. And... And I would often say that, You know, people had asked me something, like, what was your childhood like or whatever... I don't know. I I have... I have a bad memory And the more that I've learned about trauma, and, actually, it was... I was sitting in a
a session that Doctor Bruce Perry, who... You have not checked out his work on childhood trauma, Amazing. Please do. I was sitting in a session that he... Where he was presenting, and he was talking about dis association. It's And as he was describing the dis child, I literally felt like he was pulling back the curtain, like, he had been spying on me in my childhood. Right? These kids often have difficulty with math, and the reason for that is because math, you know, concepts build
on each other. And so dis association is when we check out. And so if we're constantly checking out when we're learning something like math where you need to grasp a previous concept in order to do the next thing. You know, Math was really, really hard for
me. Another thing was kids who are dis associated tend to be avid readers or they might use, you know, nowadays with video games and phones and stuff like that, they might associate in those ways, but you know, when I was growing up, we didn't really have those things and so books was my outlet and tons of fantasy books, You know, books that, just really got me out of my own life and allowed me to experience a life somewhere else.
He explained how dis associated kids will have huge chunks of their, you know, memory where they don't remember things or sort of this blackout. So from me, I honestly don't have a lot of memories from childhood a lot of sort concrete memories, But what I do have is, I tend to remember things from my childhood in terms of feelings that I had or sensation, that I had. And so I was a really
sensitive kid. I had huge emotions, and I unfortunately didn't have parents who knew how to do with that very well. Both of them had experienced a lot of trauma in their own childhood, My dad was a Vietnam vet with Ptsd. So So there wasn't really anybody that could help me learn to navigate my emotions in a good way. And I was often told I was too emotional, and you know, made fun of
for that. And so I I sort of learned to shut down in a lot of different ways, but a lot of the feelings that I remember having growing up, was fear. Just tons and tons of fear. I was always afraid. And because I had so little control over what happened to me, to my body and around me, you know, that fear became the way that I learned how to navigate the world. So
I didn't speak up. I didn't make waves, I learned that if other people around me were happy, then I was safe, So so there was a strong sense of safety connected to. If I could make other people happy, and and people please, then, you know, then I I would be safe. So 1 of the ways that I've really learned how to do this to make other people happy, especially my parents was to excel at everything I did. So I was a top
student. I was in 3 sports. I was an extracurricular activities band, and student council and French club and, you know, all of these things and, you know, was sort of at the top of all of those things, but it it really had a price. So in addition to trying to deal with all of what I would know call trauma in my life it didn't realize it then. This need to, like, excel and be the best, trying and improved my word, really had a toll on me. And so by the age of
11, I had my first... It was pretty weak, but I had my first suicide attempt was put on Prozac was on Prozac for my whole teenage years. At the age of 16, I was hospitalized for a week after a second suicide attempt. I just desperately wanted an eject button from life. It was just this constant sense of overwhelming despair. Second like nothing's ever gonna get better,
I don't wanna be here anymore. So my my childhood was very painful even though from the outside looking in, it probably looked like things were really great, and I was excel and and doing really well and everything. I was such an unhappy
child. The contrast of the image projected to the outside with accomplishments and the successes, and yet the internal an, the the e eject button from life as you said, That must have been a little confusing on what to be doing so well and yet to be hurting so badly. Yeah. I mean, I... The interesting thing is is I don't know that I ever really recognize that tension when I was growing up, like, looking back now, I can be like, yeah, that seems really odd, but I just never saw it then.
And and I really... I I think 2 part of it was the... I think at that time, I thought the need to excel. I I thought it was me. Like, that's why I would... So miserable because I just... I felt like I just wasn't achieving enough. You know? I didn't recognize that it was because of these other things. So... Yeah. How does an adolescent struggling with all those things move successfully into... Young adulthood, how do you make that transition? Oh, I didn't do it very gracefully.
Again, because I had so little control when I was younger, I went post secondary, my junior seniors years of high school, so I graduated from high school and, you know, my first 2 years of college on the same day. And then so when I transitioned to the university to start working on my pre bet program, I found myself pregnant within 7 months of
being it. School. And so I went from, like, having, like, no control Suddenly, there were choices everywhere, and I didn't really know how to make good choices, So I just remember so vividly, this... It's so interesting. I don't have a lot of vivid memories, but the ones I do tend to be those turning points in my life. I vividly remember sitting in a cell biology class in December, trying to do a final, I had studied my ass for this for
this final. I'm big as a house because I'm about to deliver my first child in a couple weeks, and I remember thinking, like, do I wanna be a vet or a mom? Because, oh, my gosh, I worked so hard in this class, and I barely pull the sea. And so from there, I started trying to figure out. Okay. What do I wanna do? Because, like, I think I mentioned earlier for most of my life, I wanted to be a veterinarian. And I didn't really
have a backup plan. So And so it was sort of mu around from there, trying to figure out, okay. So what do I do? And my oldest daughter, she's not. 24, but her dad and I... We separated when she was about a year and a half. So I became a single mom. I ended moving back home with my parents, while I tried to finish my 4 year degree and then also, trying to work at the time. And so it really became, you know, as a single mom. I thought, I
just have to finish school. I need to get this higher ed degree so that I'm not constantly struggling to make ends meet for me and my daughter. And so I ended up get finishing my bachelor's in social science from there. I thought, oh, yeah. I might wanna do something related to policy or a law, for Indigenous community, so I ended up going to the university of Minnesota Humphrey public Policy Institute and, got my masters in Public policy Well, I was still working and that need to
prove my worth to excel to always... You know, I was just always busy. And so as I look back now, yes, I was on a young mom at 19, but I would say I didn't really step into being there as a mom in the way that I needed to be until probably around the time that I started my healing journey, which was, you know, by that time, my my oldest daughter was 15. So Yeah. I didn't I didn't step into that very gracefully, and, you know, it's 1 of those things that I often have to
remind myself. As I, you know, share with other parents who maybe have regrets or guilt or shame about how they may have parent their own kids you know, we truly do the best we can with what we have. And for those of us that maybe didn't have a lot of good modeling to go after or didn't have a ton of supports, You a lot of it was just mud through and trying to figure out how do I stay afloat because I knew I couldn't afford to not stay afloat because
my daughter depended on me. So so you survive parenting 3... Young children getting your degree going back to the workforce and paying off student loans and doing all of that together simultaneously as a single mom. How do you get involved in the healing work, that's related to the work you're doing now. I'll just clarify 1 quick thing. My oldest daughter was 5 and a half or sick. When I first got into the relationship with
my husband, my current husband. So I wasn't in single parenting for too many years. But Yeah. I mean, it was really interesting. From public policy school, I ended up getting a job where I was working with through a foundation that was doing work with tribes across multiple states on poverty reduction It was called the Horizons program or project. And so that was really my first... What I would say gig working in tribal communities bringing people together,
teaching an n I absolutely loved it. From there, I ended up taking a job with University of Minnesota extension. Can continuing to work with tribes and supporting them and youth development work. And then while I was doing that, I started working on a doctor education. I thought, well, maybe you wanna go into the education field. And then somewhere along the line, I decided... Okay. I guess I don't wanna do that and so I shifted to working on a Phd in social and administrative pharmacy.
And so I was working on that for a while, and I went just to school for about a year, and this was when I had after I had my third daughter. And then from there, as I mentioned, I was when I was pregnant with her, that's when my I first learned about Aces, and I went through the training when she was about 3 months old. So she was probably 6 months when I first started doing this work around trauma and healing in our indigenous communities across our tribal nations here in Minnesota.
And when when I started that project, it it actually was really exciting for me because when I had applied to get trained, I said, like, I wanna bring this work, to tribes in Minnesota. And so the organization at Trainee me came to me, the spring of that year. I got trained in the fall. They came to me in the spring and said, look, we know you wanna do something to get this information at tribes? Would you be willing to design a project to do that. And I was like, oh, my
gosh. Yes. I would love that. So to I designed a project, we were able to get funding, and I was the director of tribal projects for that work for about 3 and a half years until our funding dried up. And they they still... They have funding again for the project now, which is fantastic. But during that time when we didn't really have funding for it, That's when I shifted. To my work with the University of Minnesota extension.
There was a Sam grant that they were working under looking at working with indigenous folks and the opioid epidemic and I remember when I came in and applied for the position. It was, like, I told them I said, I know the focus is on opioids, but I also know that people tend to use up because of unresolved trauma. So unless I can talk about that. I don't... I'm not really interested in the job. I don't wanna focus on the substances since use. And they
said, yes, absolutely. You can focus on understanding trauma and healing. And so that's where I really started honing my own skills, and my own understanding, deepening my understanding, not just in trauma, but in healing, and also through my bush fellowship really focused on healing. I... That's when I got trained as in my body medicine facilitator and had opportunities to really go deep into some
of my own healing work. So pieces just kept sort of coming together and coming into my life in a way that really resonated and I was learning so much, and I was applying the things in my life and it was actually just in June of 20 22 that I stepped away from my position at the University of Minnesota extension. I was gonna try to finish my Phd and at some point, I decided. You know what? That actually is not what I wanna focus my
energy on. And so I... Began to just continue to focus on this healing journey, and that's when I had been doing some contract work with End indian and Collective, and then that was when they came to me with this new position that they
were creating. And I think it's so incredible that an organization, like End have the foresight to say, you know what we recognize that healing is something that we need to work on if we wanna be able to do our work really well and be able to have our staff be supported
and well. And so they created a whole position to do that, which I'm just just still sort of have to pinch myself and could never have imagined this journey would take me to this position working with indigenous peoples across Canada, you know united, I states, Mexico supporting, but the indian collective staff and amazing work that they do with indigenous folks across
turtle island. So you're doing this work. And you're doing your own personal work, really honing in on not just trauma, but the healing necessary as a result of the trauma? How does Hoffman come into the picture? That's a great question. And it's also... It goes back to that piece. I had mentioned, I think when you and I first started chatting that I used to be someone who planned everything. I have my whole life planned out. Control
was really important. And I realized that was this false sense of control, but it was really hard for me to just... Let go and allow things to happen. But I've been doing more and more of that and really trusting and tuning into the energy and where it leads, and so there was something that a friend had shared about an... All indigenous meditation retreat that was gonna happen in New Mexico, and it happened last summer at the end of August. So I applied and I attended that. And at that retreat,
2 really important things happened that connect. To me coming to the Hoffman. So 1 is in these hours and hours of silent meditation that we did at this retreat. I became really aware of the high level of terror and rage that I held in my body. And that really scared me. I was like, I don't know what to do with that, because I have never seen anybody do anything good with terror and rage. And so I was really I was really scared about that, and I didn't know what
to do with that. And then 1 afternoon, 1 of the individuals who was at the retreat with me, his name is Tim Hard. He went through the Hoffman process. And he was sharing about his experience, you know, really broadly, but sharing a bit about the Hoffman process and how impactful it had been for him. And as he was talking about connecting with your inner child, I started crying. And there was something that resonated
so deeply. I I realized that I had been so disconnected from this inner child, my inner child, And I realized that it was impacting my ability to show up for my kids in ways that they needed. So for example, maybe about 5 or 6 months ago, my husband and I started doing something called my
body full time with our kids. I got the idea from a parenting class thing I was taking, and it's just 10 minutes of 1 on 1 time with each kid each day, and it's been fantastic, and it's been really challenging because my daughter Lydia who's 8, almost 9. She's she too is a very sensitive soul with big emotions, but she also has a huge imagination and so much creativity. And to she always wants to play dolls or make believe or something like that and Oh my gosh, true. It it was
always such a struggle. It felt so natural, and I would just... Dread having to do my body soul time with her for that reason, and I was always felt so exhausted afterwards. And I knew that the message I was sending her without saying a word because she could read my energy was, I didn't wanna play with her. And that was not the message that I wanted to...
Send in something and Tim's story told me, if you can connect with that inner child, that's gonna help you be able to address whatever this block is, that's making it hard for you to do this imaginative creative play with your daughter. So Tim said, like, you know, if anyone's interest, contact me, let me know. And so a few weeks after I got back from the... The retreat. I emailed Tim, and I said, I'm very interested.
And we called and had to had a long conversation, and from there, III applied for the process and that's how I came to Hoffman. That moment in time when Tim is describing what it's like to be in touch with your inner child and tears just start coming down your cheeks. Can you take us there a little bit?
And maybe it was a word experience of both connecting to the pain of parenting your children, but also, did you have a sense of connection to that little girl that you used to be here that still lives inside you. Yeah. I I feel like that that was really what I felt in my chest was like this tightening and constrict. In my chest as I thought about that little girl, the little girl inside of me, and there was this deep longing to get to know her to reconnect with her because I felt like even in my
childhood when I wasn't child. I didn't feel like in a lot of ways I got to have a childhood that was care free, and then the coming a mother at such a young age. They're just... There was so much responsibility so early on. And so it had been really easy for me, to bury that little girl and just see her as unimportant, but something in what Tim was saying, I could feel in my essence that reconnecting with her was a critical next step in my healing journey.
Beautiful. So, Susan, let's go. Let's go right there. Take us to your process. And I'm curious in particular about that little girl. Were you able to find her at the Hoffman process? Yeah. So I I found her in several different ways. And 1 of the ways that I didn't expect to see her was in beginning to sort of metabolize and release. A lot of that pent up rage and terror that she had. Those... You know, she just didn't have a voice for so long and just had to go along with what
was happening to and around her. And so being able to have ways for her to express was... Oh, that was so... I I almost wanna cry thinking about it because it was so essential, and it was like, I was able to really see and feel her pain in that. You know, I remember having conversations with her during the process and really just saying I'm so sorry for not allowing you to be able to have that voice even when I got to be older as an adult myself because I
just... You know, she had been shut down for so long, it was, like, I I didn't even I didn't even know she was there anymore. So having a space for her to have a voice an expression in processing those things that happened to her was a really important piece of
connecting with her. And then another really important piece was in some of the things in the process, like, learning how to play again, learning how to see through child like eyes, learning how to let go of that need or that sense of, like, I have to show up all put together or look like, you know, a certain way or I can't look quote unquote dumb or goof, Like, whatever it is. Like, just allowing, like, sort of tuning into her and and being like, okay. Like, what do you wanna do?
Like, how do you wanna show up in this moment? And she really surprised me in some ways. And when I was able to connect with her really really, deeply and not allow the minds to, you know, shut her down during the process. Honestly, like, that was some of the most just, like, freeing and in that I felt during the process was was in really connecting with her and allowing her expressions in in all forms enjoy, in rage in, you know, sadness and
grief and and all of that. So It was learning to understand those experiences from her lens, but it really was because again, there there weren't a lot of actual memories. It was so much of, like, the emotions that were coming up and through her emotions that... You know, that I that I had had to rep all those years. That was what I was experiencing, coming up and out and through in the process. Up and out and through in the process. All those words also have deep
connections to your body. Don't they I'm imagining it's a very cellular visceral experience you're having? Yeah. Absolutely. That's another thing that has been really beautiful in the last. I would say probably 6 months, of this healing journey, going through the process help to speed this process up of reconnecting to my body of of really beginning to tune into the language of my body in the sensations of the body and how my emotions are connected
sensations in my body. And, you know, beginning to to recognize that if I can tune into the body, it can give me insight into what's going on in my emotions? And then how do I wanna sort of move from there. So, Honey I never would have imagined emotions being a visceral, you know, experience, but but they very much are. The again, just... It's so beautiful to remember how interconnected the mind, the body, the heart and the spirit all are and going through the process.
Really help me experience that in a new and deeper way. And that's 1 of the things that I think is important... It's been important for me on my healing journey Is, like there's different levels of knowing. There's like, okay. I can know something in my head, and that's a sort of, like, a knowing of it. But then when it sinks into the body or it sinks into the heart and the body or there's a connection with the spirit heart and body.
That knowledge becomes embodied, and it becomes something that then I can actually do something with. And so I know this is going a little bit off topic, but related to that, you know, 1... As I mentioned, 1 of the struggles I I had for a lot of years was, always over achieving and do doo do and
go. And and so tuning back into my body, especially since the hoffman process, I knew that I was out of balance in that, but now I feel the imbalance in my body, and that allows me a greater ability to be able to do something about it because I can feel the imbalance. It's not just... Oh yeah. I know I'm working too much or gone too much or whatever, Like, I feel it in my body so then I can use my body as a way to sort of gauge.
Like, is this too much? Or can I do more or as opposed to allowing my mind to say, oh, yeah, You can do more? You can do more. You can do more. So, yeah, I think the body is such an essential piece to come back to in this healing journey because there's so much wisdom there and and going through the process help me to connect with that wisdom in a deeper way. Beautiful body. As doorway, body as healing, body is opening as a indicator to what you need and then the body can help you get it.
Susan, I wanna ask about your work pre process and all of the healing you've done, both personally and in your community, how did that line up with the Hoffman orientation, How do you see where's the venn diagram of the work you're trying to bring to your communities and the Hoffman work?
I saw and felt over and over and over again the overlap between them, you know, just in even for example, judith, the framing of the 4 parts of ourselves, and that recognition of that and the focus on the spirit as the center as the leader as the, you know, like, that recognition that we are first and foremost
spiritual beings. So so that really really resonated with me that framing, and then when the hoffman talks about patterns, I I love to geek out on neuroscience stuff and understanding how the brain wires itself and how things can become automatic reactions and and all of this. And so as I think about or as I thought about in the process, patterns, it really was about understanding or or having that connection of, like, oh, yeah. So this... These patterns, these things that we saw already.
Things that we experienced over and over and over again, that became the the the neuro pathway, the the wiring, and that's why that's the automatic response. When we are not things consciously aware of what's going on for us when we get triggered or activated into that fight flight response, we fall back, on those old patterns. Those those ways of how we showed up in the world that helped
us to survive in the past. And so it I just suck so many overlaps with all of it, and it helped give me new language for what I... You know, some of this heavy stuff around neuro science and whatever that that I had been sort of studying and and looking out and integrating in my own life. It gave me new language, both more easily understand it myself and also to just generally talk about it with other people. I've had the opportunity to connect with some folks who I went through the process
us with since then. And just having that language it's been really helpful for me in grounding some of these theories and things that I've been looking at and and, learning about, you know, there's a a conference, international trauma conference And and there's always such great information there, but it's so heavy. Right? There's there's so much neuroscience language and the different parts of the brain. Yada, and you can really get lost
in all of that. So I loved how the hoffman and the the process, simplifies that and yet it's so accurate to what the science is showing and how the brain works and how the brain wires and the intra neuro biology And And me just all of that. It's... I was seeing the connections everywhere. That seems important
to you that although there's... So much information out there that really can take you down wonderful insights and epi the process helped ground it and clarify it inside you in a way that you were able to understand, hold on to and therefore make it more accessible around how to utilize it for your own healing. Is that feel accurate? Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
When the neuroscience talks about the patterns and pathways that get developed through repetition over time, that's 1 thing, and we can say, okay, Yeah. You know, that's that's sort of like, how I was programmed. But but the the piece that I felt was so helpful for me on my journey and helping to... For this knowledge that I had in my head to go deeper into a greater embodied wisdom was really that piece around, yes, this may be how my brain got wired, and my patterns are not who I am.
And I feel like in my healing journey, there's... You know, because there's been so many patterns that are connected around, you know, needing people pleasing in order to feel safe and fix a caretaker again, because if everyone's happy, then I'm safe. You know, there's so many patterns that have been showing up and that are interconnected, and it was, like, okay, I'm okay with showing the quote on unquote good side, when I show up in that way, people...
It feels good to other people because either they have their need sped or I don't rock the boat or whatever that is. But I realized that some of those patterns that I had or those beliefs that I had some of those that shadow side within me, I was still using a ton of energy to press that. Because there was this belief that I had prep process that if I show these things, then people will know who I really am. I can't continue to put up this facade
of, like, who who I am. And so this probably is going off track a little bit. But I I just wanna share a really quick story about this that helped me to sort of understand this shadow side and working with it post process. At the beginning of, I believe it was February, my extended family went to the twin cities. That was... It was what we were doing for, like, our Christmas it's Christmas thing instead of getting gifts for each other, we were gonna, you know, hang out and have an
experience together. And so that for Friday as we were getting ready to leave. My husband and I were packing up the car, and I had several meetings that I still had to take. I was hoping to take him on the road, but we were running beat Kind, and we needed to go get the... Our 2 of our daughters from school? We also have a son. And so I said to my husband eyes I, like, can you just go get the girls from school all take my calls here at home, I'll, Asher
can stay with me. And then, when you get back, then we'll see where my calls are at, and maybe we can get on the road. He's like, yeah, that's fine. So we had been loading up the car prior to that. And when I came inside, that was when I realized, like, you know what? I just... I'm feeling too stressed about trying to get this all done right now, and that's when I asked him to just go pick up the girls. So he went picked
up the girls. And as I was on 1 of my calls, he calls me, and I put myself on mute on the work call, and he tells me that the back gate of the car was open? And what all did we have in the back? And like, you know, III don't know. Like, our stuff or, you know I was like, I I can't... Like, I can't talk you about this right now. So and he's was like, okay. I'll figure it out. So then he messaged me in a little bit later, and he was like, yeah. Okay. I found everything.
It's all gonna. Say like, okay, good. So he gets the girls. He comes home. We get in the car. We head to the cities. By this... By the time we get to the twin cities, it's late. It's like 09:00 at night, and we are start unloading the car. And as I'm unloading the back of the car, I'm like, where's my bag? And it dawned on me. My bag fell out of the car. Back and brainer. And I lost my shit. I completely lost it. I'm in this public place, you know, like, out side, and I'm just like,
oh my gosh. I can't believe this. I'm, like, w out. I'm so mad, and part of why I'm so mad at There's still a part of me that feels like I have to justify vibe. But for anybody who was at the hoffman process with me or knows me. Knows like, my earrings rings are, like, mike, thing. I get gifted earrings, my dad, my oldest daughter has beaded me some earrings. So all of my favorite earrings, we're in this little pouch that I bring with me when I travel in my bag.
I just was like so beside myself and I just completely lost it. To make a long story short, the bag was found. The police went and got it, my husband's parents met him halfway between here in the cities because like a 2 and a half hour drive that night to get the bag. And and it all worked out. My pre hoffman self is, would have been absolutely horrified what I had done. I would have been so embarrassed the whole weekend. I would have had a hard time interacting with family. I
would have felt, like, a complete fraud. Here I am doing this healing work, and then I, you know, totally lose my shit on my husband, but having gone through the process, I was able to sort of step back and be like, what happened there, What came up for me? What patterns were there? And 1 of the things I realized like, 1 of the patterns that came up for me was this sense of helpless?
There's nothing to be done. It's gone. Sort of this sense of hopelessness and hopelessness that I felt for so many years as a little girl. So that was such a big trigger for me. I just went into it. But post process in reflecting on it, I was able to... Even that night and the next stay, and then for weeks after continue to remind myself. That pattern is not who you are. Yes, you showed up that way, but that pattern is not who you are. You don't have to feel like shame about
that. Yes, I wanna try to... Make sure that thing, you know, like, I don't completely lose it like that on on the regular, which, honestly, Drew, and this was the part that surprised me, I had never in my life to my knowledge, ever done that. Ever. I was so grateful that I had the tools. From the process to work with that experience and to to move through it and navigate it in a good way as opposed to
getting caught up in the shame spiral. And then like, I can't even imagine where I would be if I gotten caught up in a shame spiral around that because that that was a really big deal... It was a really big deal, you know, like, how I
showed up in that moment. And so a couple days later in my husband, I were were able to sit down and talk about it and I was able to really own the stuff that was mine from that and share with him some of the learnings and insights that I had had over the last few days about what had happened, and I was so grateful for those... For the tools that I learned at the process
to be able to navigate that situation. It's Susan rarely, I say rarely, but actually, as I'm saying it, it's like, maybe it's always true that the healing and powerful moments of rewriting the story also compared with the moments of struggling and pain and losing your shit as you talked about, There were both both of those full on pattern and yet, deeply rewriting of the story on the right road. Yeah.
Absolutely. And the I... You know, I've had a few other moments of of just really deep, you know, being able to use the tools in a way that has shifted how I show up, You know, in that instance, I wasn't able to catch it before it happened. I think potentially because it was such as such a deep rooted pattern for me, but there have been other times where I've been able to actually catch it. Like, I'm in it. And before I act on it, I notice it, and I'm able to stop it and pause it and ask myself,
like, okay. I know where this goes. I don't wanna go there what do I wanna do instead? And so I could give you several examples of that. It's all of that. It's, like, those moments that are the hardest, that that can be the hardest, that can also be the most transformative, so super grateful. I love the way and what's mature. Describing the ability to catch it in the moment, and sometimes catch it after either 1 is an opportunity for healing and re wiring those neural pathways.
Susan, I wanna ask you before we end here. I just wanna ask you about your work with indigenous, people's... In in as Canada calls them first nation, and in particular around historical trauma, and the ways in which it's patterns that have been passed down through generations and certainly our parents, like we learn about in the process.
But also, there's another layer that gets over overlaid as a result of the trauma, the oppression, the discrimination is to light a word that white people have put upon first nations. Can you describe a little bit about why your work is so important and in particular how you hold the healing around cultural trauma.
You know, 1 of the things that I think is really important for people who don't know a lot about what happened happen to indigenous people in both the United States and in Canada is a recognition of happen how the boarding schools or the residential schools really shifted the ways that children were raised and families interacted and the way that culture and traditions got passed
down. So pre contact, there's some interesting stories from anthropologists who came who were over here, writing about how native parents were just too perm. We didn't span our kids, we didn't we didn't have purple punishment and all these sorts of things. And in into many of our cultures, because there there are over 500 tribes
across the United States. And many of our cultures, the the word for for child or children or baby is connected to something around sacred bean or sacred bundle or little spirit being. So there was this recognition of the gift that this child is a gift. And this child...
Comes into not just the nuclear family, not just with a mother and a father and their siblings, but into this really strong, interconnected extended family network where Aunts and uncles, the names for them are the same as mom and dad, where cousins, the way that we would talk about the language we used to talk about our cousins
was the same as sister and brother. So there were these really large extended family groups that loved and supported this little sacred bundle, This this little spirit bean that came into this world, So just to give that context of how children are raised pre contact. And then in the boarding... Schools, where children are taken some as young as 2 and 3 years old, some were gone for schools 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, right? In these schools where abuse and neglect ran rampant.
There was so much physical abuse, sexual abuse, verbal abuse, neglect of all kinds. In addition to the goal of boarding schools and residential schools was simulation. It was not to teach children, it was to assimilate indigenous peoples because the adults, the the government's... The Canadian and and the United States government governments had not been very successful. At the indigenous adults. And so that's why they took the children. And so they clearly didn't have the neuroscience
back then. But if what you're trying to do is completely change a people, taking the children is a good strategy. Right? Because we know and understand now that those experiences create the programming in the patterns that then get played out throughout the rest of life. So 1 of the things that happened a lot in these schools was shaming, programming shaming of culture, shaming of language, physical harm cause when these children would speak. The only language they knew,
they would be physically harmed for it. When the children came out of the schools, many of them no longer knew their indigenous languages or if they and remembered it, there was a strong association and connection a tie with pain with speaking the language. And so I've heard just heartbreaking stories of elders who were in the boarding schools or residential schools and would not share their traditional indigenous language with their children or grandchildren because of that fear.
And so that's 1 way that language didn't get passed on. You know, the elders were really the culture bearer and helped to teach children. And so when you remove children from the community, that's transfer of knowledge can't happen in the same way. And so many of these kids left the boarding schools and residential schools unable to speak their language. They didn't have a sense strong sense of
connection and who they were. Because of all of the trauma, they were shut down from their spirit, their mind, their body, their hearts. Many of them turn to substances or other things to be able to cope with the emotions that we're coming up to try and numb those out. So that's, you know, 1 of the ways that sub since it really started in trading our
communities and impacting. And then, of course, you know, there's all sorts of things that get tied and connected to that, So there's a there's an awful lot that our indigenous nations and our indigenous people are trying to heal from. So this is how I think about it, Drew, and in my own healing work. It's very much been this understanding of if I can't connect, to my own spirit, mind body and heart, it makes it truly impossible to genuinely and authentically connect with others.
Because it's through that connection to our body mind spirit and heart that we're able then to connect with others. You know, the neuro biology, and the mere neurons, the... The energy that our hearts are picking up, the the information that our spirits are sending each other. There's so many ways that we... Are connected, interconnected and that we share information. And so if I'm disconnected from myself.
I can't possibly tune to someone else, And then also that someone else goes beyond as indigenous peoples, as we believe it goes beyond just our human relatives. It it extends out to our... You know, our aunt plant and the animal relatives, and all in the elements in all of the ways that we recognize, our relational, our relationship and interconnection with all beings, the s that spirit that essence
that's in everything that's alive. So, you know, for me as an indigenous woman in that reconnect connection, to self first has been really important. But it's also this this remembering that we heal best in relationship with others. So in some ways, it's a bit of a... I don't wanna say a catch 22, but in our communities, it can be really hard because we have generations con generations upon generations of trauma that's been passed down, and I often think of this trauma energy,
compounding over time. Right? When we don't have the ability to heal or to transform or shift it, it just gets compounded into the next generation, the next generation carries their own trauma plus the trauma of those that came
before them. And so, you know, we we really need those those safe healing spaces in order to do the individual healing and finding those safe healing spaces within our communities, there are some, for sure, But that's 1 of the things that in the work that I do and other in other indigenous peoples that I work with. We're trying to do more and more of is, you know, first, our own healing work so that we can hold those spaces. We can hold those spaces for our relatives to heal.
We don't heal others, we could... But we can hold the space for them to do their own healing and work. And so, you know, that's, I think as as indigenous people as we are working to heal these generations of trauma that have been passed down. That's really the focus that that I use and those that I... That I work with, do, and I honestly wouldn't wanna be doing anything
else. I feel so grateful. To be able to use what I've learned through the pain of my own journey to be able to transform that and be able to show up in ways and be able to connect authentically with people. I know what that dark place is. I've been there, and I also know what it's like to live in the beauty of life. It's not a polly view of life, but rather the recognition that this is a bit off topic, but as I think about, there's been so much grief
in our indigenous communities. And I lost my dad in January, it was 2 years and my dad and I were very close and, you know, I loved him very much and And as I was working with and through the grief that was coming up, I had this understanding. That grief and love are in connected. The level of grief that I was experiencing after my dad's transition from this world was directly equivalent to the amount of love that I had for my dad. We don't grieve those things that are that leave,
if we don't love them. And so I think as indigenous people, it is this... Invitation to learn relearn learn, how do we hold all of life, grief and love, with that tender, with that openness, that's needed to be able to allow that energy to move and knock get stuck in our systems, whether it's in our bodies and our hearts and our minds. And so as I think about the work that I do, I I just I feel like that's so important is like, how do we relearn how to...
Move and navigate with all that life brings, The beauty and the pain of it. Is there more you'd like to share about? This whole journey before we close. I think 1 of the things that I wanna share is I was sort of, like, thinking about... The process and some things that have really shifted for me, and that shift... Began to shift for me in really big ways in the process,
was this piece around reclaiming my power. You know, as I mentioned several times not not having much control as a child really I know, I I felt really powerless in in so many situations. And there was a a specific activity we were doing on, I think it was day 3. As I was going through that activity, I found myself sort of drumming and singing back my spirit. I was given my spirit name when I was... I think I was about 12 And my name is Na, which means leading thunderbird woman.
And for most of my life, up until that moment at the hoffman. I didn't believe I was worthy of that name. That name carries a lot of responsibility because the Thunderbird is 1 of, as an People, 1 of our most powerful man or spirits. They are the protectors of the people. They can bring storms. They can bring in the rains, which can cleanse and heal, and And as I was going through that process, I could feel all of that in my body, and I could feel my spirit.
Starting to come back in as I was drumming and singing that name, Na. Na Ben. And I began to have a new understanding of what that name meant and a new understanding of how I wanted to move forward in this life as Na in my power. I'm no longer afraid, but rather willing to step into the fear,
not shy away from it. I I knew that in doing that, that will continue to allow me to show up more and more in the ways that my people need that my family needs that my community needs And so I just wanted to share that because for so many years, there was this really toxic relationship I had with power. Because power had always been used as power over in my
life. And so being able to reclaim my power in the process, I mean, when I think about the process... I mean, there there were so many transformative moments, but that was 1 of the most transformative moments for me. And I continue to see it unfold in my life as, you know, new opportunities come in instead of being like, oh, I don't wanna do that be like, Is that something that I wanna do? Right?
Or I'm sitting in a meeting or having a conversation with someone and I feel like I need to say something, but there's that fear, and then it's like, okay, but I'm not gonna move from that place of fear. What is my spirit telling me in this moment? What needs to be said? What do I need to do? And so being able to reconnect in that way and move from that place of spirit and power as opposed to fear. I'm so excited about life and
what I know will continue to unfold. So I'm so be grateful for the process and all that I've learned and and how it continues to just unfold in my life in really beautiful ways. Tell us like that memory then from the past, also, is day to day Memory that you allowed to nurture and sustain you in the moments of life today. Emery Susan. Thank you so
much. I'm really grateful. How do how does it feel to have taken this time to tell your story to share your insights what do you notice in your body in particular because you're so connected to it in your heart? What Yeah. I feel like, right now and throughout our conversation. I've just felt a lot of energy and movement in my heart center. You know, moments of, like, expansion and moments of contraction where there's a bit of, like,
oh, should I share this? And then it's, like, let's move from that place of, you know, of openness, and of connection and power, and so then that, like, sort of noticing the ebb and flow of the expansion and contraction and noticing the thought as they come in. And so, yeah, it's it's felt good and there have been parts that have felt uncomfortable, but I also, you know, have learned that that discomfort. That just means that's a
growth that's for me. And so I've felt myself growing in this conversation and for that true. I mean, I'm the Incredibly grateful. Thank you for listening to our podcast My name is Liza and Grass. I'm the Ceo and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. And I'm Ras Grass, Often teacher and founder of the Hoffman to foundation. Our mission is to provide people greater access
to the wisdom and power of love. In themselves in each other and in the world, To find out more, please go to hop institute dot org.