Hey, everybody. Barbara burke is our guest today, teacher, colleague, friend. Eye was so inspired by this conversation so moved. It's deep, it's soul full. We also wanna let you know that a portion of this episode contains references to self harm, eating disorders, child sexual abuse, and it explicit language, It may not be suitable for all audiences. So use your judgment as and I hope you get so much out of this episode with Barbara. Please enjoy. Welcome to Loves everyday radius.
Podcast Brought to you by a Hoffman Institute. My name is drew horn. And on this podcast, we catch up with graduates of the process and have a conversation with them about their work in the process is informing their life outside of the process, how their spirit and how their love, of are living in the world around them, their everyday radius. Barbara, welcome to the program. Thank you, Drew. I am so delighted to be here and honored as well. I'm looking
forward to this conversation. Are you? Me too. I've been looking forward this. To the last week. Will you introduce yourself, tell us a bit about who you are? Oh sure. My name is Barbara To and I actually I grew up in Buffalo, New York on in 19 51, I was born, and I was born into a family with 6 other siblings.
Yeah. So I lived there until university, and at that point, I decided to go to the universe of Toronto in Canada, partly and quite honestly as I wanted to get out of Buffalo, And when I went to the university of Toronto, they were encouraging foreign students and it was very affordable to me at that point as well. And then I lived in Toronto since I was 20, I guess. So I've lived here for over 50 years. So it's been been quite a journey.
I have a sister here as well, which is really nice, but most of my relatives are in the Us. And I've held on to my dual citizenship, which has allowed me great freedom in many ways. And you've been a hoffman process. Teacher for how many years? Since 2007. 16 years. 6... Still so hard to believe hard to believe. As I did my process in in 19 96, why consider myself sort of an old gold. And at that point in my life, honestly, drew I never had the thought of becoming a
hoffman teacher. That was never in my vision. And how I ended up here with some Marine Colossal, who is the then owner of Hoffman in Canada had invited me to lunch 1, and I had lunch with at adult, for our baby thought becoming a hoffman teacher. I said, absolutely not. It looks like it's too much work. And she said, oh, Barbara, it's easy. And so I... I applied to be a teacher at that point, I had left. I was teaching elementary school, which was never my passion.
But I was really at Loose, and I really didn't know what to do with my life, but I thought, you know what? There's gotta be something more. And so I actually took an early retirement from teaching to and I told myself that if nothing appeared, I'd end up, you know, I'd be okay working at a grocery store. I just really didn't wanna teach elementary school.
And so that's when Maureen asked me this question, and I applied to the teacher training, and there were 10 of us, and actually, 2 of us made it through the other end and it's been the... 1 of the greatest gifts in my life. It really has taken all my skill sets. Together, and I just feel like I'm in my essence whenever I teach. It's nice to have a job that supports you being in your essence is it. It's incredible and actually all throughout my teacher training, my siblings,
and family were... Oh, barbara, You know, there's no guarantee of any work, and You know, what are you doing? And I said, you know? I just know this is what I'm supposed to do. And, of course, when I when I completed my teacher training, there was lots of work available to me. So Barbara, I I think as a teacher, you represent a kind of unique perspective for
listeners both? As someone who is an expert in the field and yet I know how you show up in the world, it's your work too And so let's dig in a little bit if you're okay with that. Why did you go to the process. What? Pain point were you looking to heal? That is such a great question. And actually, I'm gonna start with my younger sister of. Sally. In 19 95, I had a dream. And in my dream, I saw my sister sally lying parallel to a baguette.
And when I had that dream when I woke up, I thought she has eating this. I knew something was wrong, but I wasn't quite sure what it was. So I called her at that point, and says sally, do you have been eating this disorder doctor and she said, no. You know, why would you think that? And I said, well, I had the stream. And I said, well, are you okay if I come down to... Talk to your therapist, because I knew she had a therapist. And so as soon as I arrived, sally came
up and said, barbara you're absolutely right. I haven't either just sort We talked and she, at that point revealed to me. Oh, this is Her Drew. That that she had memories of my father sexually abusing her. And as soon as she told me that, I knew in my gut that it was true. I just knew that it was true. And at that point, I was the only sibling that she had...
Shared this with. And so for the next, you know, 6 months, it was really hard Number 1 to hold on to this incredibly upsetting information and to see her literally to see her dying before my eyes and a couple months later, she called me in Toronto and said that her eating disorder nutritionists said there are 2 choices sally. Either you can... We're gonna hospital you where there's this program called the Hoffman Institute. Squadron program. And she said, you know, I I just know. This is what I
need to do. And she said there's no Yeah. I can't communicate with you during this time. We on a lot phones or anything. And quite honestly, I was a huge skeptic. And I remember going to any doctor's office I could find Toronto. Have you ever heard of this? Have you ever heard of this? Have you ever heard of this? And no 1 had heard of Hoffman. And so Sally Sally went to the process in Canada.
Barbara, can I just jump in because that dream that you had of her line next to a baguette ad, and then checking it out with her that she has an eating disorder in her first denying it? And then when you went to visit her, her. Acknowledging it. Do you think spirit speaks to to you in dreams? Is that possible? Absolutely true. I I've had a number of times in my life where I've just... Through dreams are just my intuition, and I've really learned.
To trust that and to speak it. But, yes, I think absolutely, spirit, spirit work worked through me at that point And then I don't doubt your skepticism when 1 doctor recommends something and yet no other doctor you talk to can confirm. That that program even exists. Exactly. And I I remember asking when doctor said I know that she... Could she have been cutting herself?
That's what I saw on her wrist earlier in the summer, and she had said that the cat had scratched and there something that just didn't sit right with me. They said, well, often when people are in such pain, they cut themselves to let the pain out to feel it on the outside, and that made sense to me. So I just from sal, the conviction her voice Thought, her spirit was speaking to her too spirit said, This is where you need to go. My, I guess, I had no
choice, but Did... I trust thought well. We'll see what happened. So off she went through, and when she came out the other side, I I was, again, very skeptical. I thought, well, she seemed super happy and content and had peace around my father which I thought how can that possibly be? And I thought well this will last maybe a week or 2 weeks, but just kept on blossom and blossom. Until 1 day, she came up to Toronto and she sat me down. And she said, can I ask you a question? And I said, sure.
She said, you, Barbara, do you think you're lovable? And I looked her in the eye drew and I said, no. And she said joan Barbara, I really, really wish that you could have this someday. You know, at that point in my life, I didn't have a lot of resources, and so I didn't think was possible until my mother, who I'd been estranged with if not really a strange. I would see her, but she would come... She come into a room to hug me, Drew, my whole body was stiff up.
And I just, I felt so defended around her and, you know, in Retrospect probably very angry, and So we had a very, you know, surface relationship, and she had actually called me 1 day and said, there was a ring that surfaced to the soil at her family cottage that my ex husband had given me, and did I want him? And I said, I said well, sure. And then my mother asked me barbara bro... Have you ever thought about doing hoffman? And I said no, I can't afford it.
And she said you barbara, if this would bring you happiness, I would really like to to pay for you and give this to you. And And I said to her okay, but there's no guaranteeing and Like you at the end of this. And, you know, bless her drew. She sent a check in the mail with a a car that had butterflies home over it, and I still have it to the day. And so I went I went to the process thinking, well, it work for my sister grant won't work for me,
but it was truly the most... Profound experience of my life. I had been in talk therapy for 10 years, and I gave great answer the therapist all love me, but I never felt anything until I did the process. And that's what broke me open and really connected me to spirit. As you look back on your process and it breaking you open, are there moments in time that stand out to you?
Yeah. And and right now, if you if you could see any other other end, I have tears of my eyes for sure, I think 1 of the most, profound so many, But 1 of the most profound moments for me was the cath work because in my family system, we were never ever allowed to get angry even to disagree. And when I started doing the expressive work, particularly
around my father. The flood gates just open and for the first time in my life, I thought They had a voice, and I could express my anger and resentment. And with my mother as well, it felt so freeing I think that in itself, I felt like I had almost been reborn in that moment. And then from that place to do the compassion work of my mother and father. And again, I thought I will never forgive my father ever.
He has not only hurt my sister, but destroyed her whole family my system, and my mother for that matter, I was stunned. That in a day, I could come to a place of real true, deep compassion for for the young boy that he was. I mean, he grew up in a family. He had 9 siblings. He was a twin.
He was the last last 2 children in his family of 10, and just really walking in his shoes and imagining his life, just open my herd up to my father, and to my mother who could grow up in very well to do family and her... Basically Her Nanny kinda brought her up. Her her mother had no was not emotionally supportive at all. And just to imagine what her life would have been like.
And so coming on with the process, seeing my mother for the first time, I could see that little girl in her, and I just took her in my arms and just hugged her in a away that I never ever thought would be possible. And I think the greatest gift for me was I was at my mother's death, actually, yeah know, ironically, it was my myself and my sister sally. We were the 2 in her room at the moment that she died. I remember holding her hand and she was gasping her breath,
and I looked at Sally. I said satellite, let's take her into the light. And we invited her into the light together and Drew, she took a great big breath. She bled out for the sigh, and she was gone. And in that moment, I thought she's not her body. Her spirit was just released, And that would never have happened. Had I not done the process or sally? The 2 of you there with her in her last breath were the 2 who had done the process
out of the 7 children. And all 7 children were there after she had her stroke. But we took shifts of being in the room with her. And sally, I just happened to be at the shift where she took her last breath, What's that like to remember now here in this moment? Well, honestly, I can see her in that bedroom and I just my heart is just so grateful. I mean, she... In that moment when she offered me Hoffman to me that was unconditional love because I was really shitty to her true.
And she truly met what she said for brings you happiness, and I look at her in that bed, and I think You know, she she really lived her life in a profound way in a very simple way too. Simple in that she never had any great ill career. Right, but she she was who she was in life, and before she went into a assisted living, I went to visit her in Buffalo, and this was when I was just beginning to teach. And she came into my bedroom, and she said, no, Barbara, I've been thinking about you.
And she said the work you you're like a priest, and she she grew up to very catholic. And I looked when I said, wow. Thank you. And I felt very seen in that 1 I think the work that we do is very sacred work. And again, I really felt like mother saw me and heard me. Because which, of course, I wanted my whole life. But truly through the work of the process, I think I saw her, and I think she saw me. Have you been with your sister recently? Do you... Are you still connected
to her? I'm care of actually. I just saw I was just in Florida with my... Brother who just did the process in November, which was a total dream come true to me. And my sister Sally, and her husband, Neil, who also has done the process. And my sister Sheila, who hasn't done the process, mister I'm very close to she this in Toronto. We were all together for about a week in Florida. Wonderful. But, thank you for sharing that story and and take us to
your work as a teacher now. You you train, you get through the rigorous training to be a hoffman teacher and you begin the work in Canada as a as a process teacher. What's that like for you in those early years? It was just... And it still is true so moving to to get to journey with students that come in who who often are just at a point in their life where they think there has to be something more. Or they they are just so defeated and to see the...
I'm gonna call the magic of the process, just to see people transform me for my very eyes, I was just thinking earlier today that, again, after the cath work, when we meet 1 and 1 with a student. I can remember the student coming in saint Barbara Barbara, You don't realize that you have the cure for the... Common cold. And I said, what? And she said it's like you have the cure for the common cold. This work is absolutely transformational and why aren't more people doing it.
And and I think that is so true. I've never seen a anything that that transforms people the way this worked us. So I'm often really moved and honored. I've learned a lot over the years. I think I initially thought that somehow I had to do the work for the student somehow I had to fix people, and I quickly learned that that was not true at all that it's really about holding the people
as their divine essence. In fact, before I ever teach a process, I write down my intentions, and 1 my intention is just to really love each person in my small route because III wanna see them as their essence to in the very good go rather than their patterns. 1 of my gifts through, I think always has been to to see inside a person to see their spirit. I think that's true with my nephews and nieces,
anyone that I calendar like that. I think I have an ability to really see who they are and to really support people in that place, and so In many reasons, that's why this work really just took all my skill sets together. And also teaching elementary school all those sears. I taught, we call it grade 8 in Canada, it'd would be eighth grade in the Us, where people, you know, they're 12 and 13. And so, I think people at the process often we asked them to go back to their child.
And I think all those years of holding a classroom like that really helped me. Also be a really effective teacher. Yeah. I'm thinking back to the many processes you and I. Have talked together our first 1 in Canada when I went up north because the Canadian process needed teachers and now you come down to the Us every time you teach a and you even teach in Canada too. You are beloved, as a teacher for so many different reasons,
but 1 of the ones that's coming. To my mind is the cath expressive work and your passion for helping people access anger. So can you just talk a little bit about that? Well, a couple things, Drew. I would say, I always... Have believed I can't teach what I don't believe. And I have... I've got it show up as who I am in the world, and I so believe in the cath pathetic work. I... Because again that I just see that's where the transformation point is.
So when I step into a teaching piece, for instance, the bashing rounds, I wanna be there with a student in the bashing. So I literally step into that place and access that energy within myself to hopefully allow them to access their voice and their power, in that moment. I I can remember actually an old boyfriend that taught me how to say fuck, and I've had a number of students say wow barbara, you really ought to say fuck well. And
it was something I I learned. And and I found to me is so powerful to release that anchor and to release the sadness, so both to release all of that. So I actually love the Cath work. I'd love doing it. And I think I think I come across as authentic because I'm authentically channel some anger. And the full embodied expression that is so important that helps support our vitality, our liven yeah exactly. And you often say, you know, until you access your angry, you can't access your joy.
And I think it's so true. And I must say even after leading people in bashing and the cath pathetic work, I feel so much better on the other end of it too. You know, 3 minutes of doing cath work, is huge. Is huge. I mean, recently if I think it may have shared with you too. I recognize how much my shame still lives and how I, you know, I think the process is a continually, it's a life journey. And right now, that's what's come up for me is if we really look at my shame and and really
start to do some work around it. Yeah. Let's go there because how do you know shame is coming up, has it always been there and you're just more aware of it now or maybe... Stuff happened that it's more present in your life. Will you just share a little bit about that? Recently, I've been more aware of it. I think I've I've always known Held shame, but I think I learned to hide it
well. I'll put it that way. I think I really learned... I hide it through my pattern of being a perfection or making sure, you know, everything is ordered in a certain way and so on, but I recognized recently that what a whole shame has on me, and I know the roots of it. I'll go back to growing up as 1 of 7... Children, I was the third of 7. I would describe myself right now as kind of the run. And and what I mean by that is that I look physically very different than my other siblings. I had
dark hair. I wore a patch over my eye at age 5. I had a lazy eye, So I had to wear a patch of my, and of course, my siblings made a lot of fun around that. My teeth are very crooked. I mean, I I just... I looked really different. And And also, I think the big thing for me that I'm really finding out of myself. I think in those days, so I went, you know, I was born in 19 51.
So Going to school, I can remember in second grade, my parents were told, you know, Barbara probably will never learn how to read. And I really struggled at school. And and in grade 2, actually, the... We were given awards, and I got award for my closeness to god, or everybody else got awards for spelling or math or reading, that's what I got. And then the time I was like, great. This is this is what I get an word for. And then when I... Went to high school Believe
we did aptitude 2 tests. And and again, there were some areas that I just failed decently And so I think I really tried to compensate for what I would call my learning disabilities all my life and worked really hard at. Most recently, actually, I was playing a board game, which I wasn't very good at. And with my siblings, and they were all really good at it. And I felt my shame got triggered and again, I could feel
the old I'm not. Smart enough. I'm not good enough, comparing myself, and it just hijacked me in the moment. And I went, wow. So it hijacked you in the moment because I think so many of us struggle to know when shame is present. So What were some of the indicators in that moment playing that board game where you were able to say wow this is shame? I felt it in my body. I wanna say I felt it in my chest, but I could just feel this this feeling in my chest and probably that pit of my stomach.
And I felt like I wanted to run away. I I really did in that moment. It was like, I don't want people to see how stupid I am. That would probably be the word that would come to mind with stupid. So I just wanted to run away or make light of it. And I think in that moment too, I went to what's wrong with me? Like, what's what's wrong with me? And so all all the conversations and messages in my head in that moment, but I think it was... For me it's the wanting to run away. It's
to hide. So how did you get out of it? Let's push play again back in that? Room with the siblings around the board game, What happened? This is where I think thank God for my hoffman tools thank God. In that moment, I was able to name it, and that's really important to me. So I went, oh, in my head I'm like, that's my shame. And the other thing that I did in that moment, and I'd say certainly in the last couple years I've really done a lot of work on self compassion.
Is I just put a hand over my hand and stroke my hand and inside, I thought that's Young barber, and I and I just to myself. You know what? It's okay. You're lovable. You can just be who you are. And that really helped me a lot in that moment. Just just for that second to kind of come back to myself. You know, someone was trying to help me in that moment. I said, you know what? I said, It's okay. Said I'm just learning, and, you know, I'm okay. I don't need to win the game. You know? So that
that really helped me in that moment. Said And so I'd love you connecting with that little girl. You know, I have a picture actually a little barbara out. That I look at each day because I've looked at her and I think, oh, I look at her eyes Drew she's so full of life. There was such hope in that little girl, and I think through a number of experiences she was young, that light got kinda ding, and she gotten beliefs about herself that they're so not true. Can we put that little
picture of Barbara in the show notes? Sure. I will absolutely do that. So you'd look at her every morning? I do. Well, I learned it for playing out every morning, but I look at her and I just... And especially in moments actually where I feel I feel my own... Shame or not good enough. I just have to look at her and go, oh, honey. You know, you've are her so good enough. You know, look at this sweet girl that you were Earlier you talked about how. I forgot how you framed it, but it's
an ongoing process. The process never ends. It never ends. You know, And and I say that to my students, too I say, every single day, Drew, my... I mean, I believe my practice is absolutely vital to my life. It's absolutely vital. Each day doing a quad check and again, I I always say make life easy. Like, I'll do just do my quad check in the shower. Because I'm gonna be taking a shower anyway. But really truly checking in with my body, checking you with my emotional cell...
And especially around feeling because again, growing up in the family I did, We never talked about Felix. In fact, the only feeling that was acceptable was good or okay. That was it. I mean, I remember very clear. I have a memory of my mother, I had been out to the movies with a friend of mine, this would have been in high school, I think in her father had just died. And it was time my mother and I started crying and she said, oh, don't be so silly.
And that was the kind of messaging I got around feelings. So when I went to the process and I had to name a feeling. I'm, like, I I have no idea what to say. So, you know, that's been really important for me to have a vocabulary around feelings and name the feelings as well. It's it's been huge for me. And what other areas do you feel like you are using the process to continue to learn grow and engage in life. Well, I... Again, I'm gonna say the self compassion piece has really been...
So important for me for the last couple of years. Also, I would say in relationships, the the transfer tool, again, has been such an eye opener to me, such an eye opener. Because I see, you know, how often I can get triggered and particularly in relationship, and how often I make up a story about the other person. Oh, I see that a lot. So that's been really great. In terms of of healing around relationships. Super important to me.
And I think also really kind of recognize that everybody is doing the best they can, but they all had pain and suffering as children too, and they also took on their own patterns. So I think it's given me more tolerance in my life and more acceptance in my life, took Yeah. I or I heard someone say, I'm not sure if everybody's doing the best they can, but when I assume they are, my life is a hell of a lot better. I love that. And and I was like, that sounds pretty good.
We may not know if people are doing the best, but when we take on that assumption, our life me improves. Yeah. And, you know, I I think back again, I remember after I did my process, I went to do... It was a retreat maybe months later. In the bedroom I was in. There was a book called a course miracles. And I was curious because someone had given me that book. Many years prior to that moment, and I thought, well, this is Gibberish, You know, and I put it away in my book case someplace.
I like to open up books to a random piece and there was a piece in there about basically, who are you to deny your greatness to deny your greatness. Is to deny that that you were created this magnificent being. And I think that's to me that so much what what hoffman is about 2 is really reclaiming the beauty of our spiritual selves.
In living from that place. And from that plays through, that was 1 of the things that put me on the path to creating the I am divine currents you know, a years later. Would you share a little bit about those cards and what they mean to you and how they can support people in the world? Yeah. Sure. So, you know, how they came to be was after the process, again, I knew that I knew I wanted a different... Rear path of, but it wasn't sure what that might be.
And I started working with a woman who would help people find their life path. And she said, barbara, you're came to my apartment She said gerald about Art and Words. She asked me if I would create some affirmation currents for her clients. With I statements. And I said sure she go like I you do some artwork. And Said, well, I'm not a trained artist. She said, just, you know, do whatever happens. So with I would sit there in the morning, and I would take a recipe card, and
I would write the... And and she decided to to put the word divine in. So I would write... I'm divine gratitude, and then I had a set of prism color cra, and I would just let myself draw whatever came to me. Never thinking I would do anything with them. So I did a number of cards, and then we decided to have a, a partnership. And then the partnership dissolved 1 point. And and again, I use my hoffman tools around creating boundaries and so on.
And she gave me back the cards, and I was about to throw them away actually because I thought there were so sort of bad karma with them, and I had a friend of mine, look at them, said these are incredible Have you ever thought about writing anything. This 1, not a writer, And she said, I think you should write something. So... And and again, in those days, I would do a conversation with spirit each morning. I would just write a dialogue with spirit. And I sat down in a cafe, and
I thought, I'm gonna write about gratitude. And I just wrote whatever was in my heart, no editing. And I did that with each 1 of these cards, and then I gave them to a friend who was a very But she's someone who didn't pull any punches, and she read them and said Barbara, these need to be out in the world. So at that point, I, sent them. I sent a couple cards to different publishers. In the first publisher I heard back from was Connie Kellogg, and she owned...
Nam publishing in Vancouver, and she said, Barbara, these are magnificent, But I'm working with a new author, called Ec Toll. And she said, I just don't have the bandwidth to work, but you should send them to other publishers, and I did that. And everyone told me they were fabulous, but they didn't print cards, so I decided to self publish. And with the help of my oldest sister who gave me the funds to do it, I self published and Hoffman, Canada agreed to carry them,
and they started selling them to people. And and again, I thought no 1 will ever buy these. And I have a whole binder of testimonials from people just telling me how important they've been, and they've been part of their spiritual practice. So I feel so grateful that I can contribute that into the world. I imagine you've put out thousands to graduates and non grads. A alike. Yeah.
I heard actually, I've done 3 reprint now, but is pretty exciting, and then I created a journal as will to go with the ke. And Again, I put my own artwork in there. And again, as someone has never been trained in artist as exciting and scary to put out your home artwork, and then I created a set of children's cars recently too, Would you share just a bit here about how you use cards? How would 1 use cards? Well, what I do and I have my...
Cards right here is I simply ask spirit for a message so I shuffle with the currents, and I draw a card out, and then I read the meditation to goes with it, and I put that as part of my day that I want to live that a in my day, so the card that they I have forming me today is I'm divine vision, and I divine vision is all about seeing people through the eyes of spirit. So throughout the day, Or moment... Am I seeing this person through the eyes of spirit, I mean, there's no right way to use
the cards to too. I know some people that will shuffle them or some people just draw 1 card a day or... Some people might draw several turns. I think this whatever you're drawn to, but I truly believe that they'll always get them perfect card. And sometimes look at a occurred, 3 days in a row, they're exactly the same card. So might be I'm divine honesty. So Like, wow, a pretty strong message, where in my life? Do I need to be more honest with myself or other people? So
to me, they're just always bang on. Barbara, How you doing? Sharing all this. Beautiful, wonderful stuff. I'm just really grateful, Drew that you've given me us opportunity to to talk about this, and I I can see how the different experiences in my life have come together to bring me to this point too. What late do you look out on? I look
out on lake Ontario. It's it's pretty dark right now, Drew, so I can't quite see the lake, but I have a beautiful view of high park and beyond that lake, and that was actually part of my often vision was a would live in a place where I could look out on the water, and I had no idea that this is where I would end up, but I'm looking out on the water. I Anything else to share before we wrap? Well, just my absolutely eternally grateful. Our gratitude for the hoffman process and how
it is just transformed my life. It's so interesting to have... Been transformed by the taking of the process and transformed by the teaching of the process, Yes. Well, I think every time I teach, I am a better person because I learn so much each time I teach. And when you say learn, learn about... I learn about myself. I'm reminded of the power of spirit. I'm reminded of my own patterns, So I I can see
my own patterns for instance in transfer. So I'm reminded again the power of both the tools and their practices. And I learned about my Learned so much for my students. They teach me so much. They teach me so much in their... The way they show up in their courage. In their curiosity. Yeah. I've weather a lot. Barbara. Thank you for this conversation. I'm so grateful. You are so welcome Jewel My pleasure. Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza and Rossi. I'm this Ceo
and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. And I'm Ras Rossi, Hoffman teacher and Founder of the Hop Institute Foundation. Our mission is to provide people greater access to the wisdom and power of love. In themselves in each other and in the world. To find out more, please go to hop institute dot org.