We're all surrounded by angels, and we our angels as well. This is a quote from this upcoming podcast with my guest, David Narrows. I just love the image not at any given time. We are all surrounded by these beings that are constantly rooting for us, loving us, supporting us. But at the same time, we are those beings for others, rooting for them, loving them, and supporting them. What a lovely and powerful image to hold.
And this is just a teaser of what's to come in this podcast as David shares his story of truth, courage and impact. His story left me feeling inspired, motivated and connected. Bears and I sure hope it does the same for you. Enjoy. Welcome to Loves everyday radius. A podcast brought to you by the Hoffman Institute. My name is Sharon Moore, and I'm 1 of your hosts. And on this podcast, we talked to hoffman graduates about how their courageous journey inward.
Impacted their personal lives, but also how it impacted their community and the world at large. So tune in and listen in and hear how our graduates authentic selves, how their love, how their spirits are making a positive impact on our world today. In other words, get to know their loves everyday radius. David, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. So, David, you and I just spoke for a couple minutes before we hit the record button.
And, I wanted to bring to the space something that we talked about, which was that you battled or you confronted this voice all day to day. That was telling you why do you even wanna talk to me? I don't have anything to say. Can you tell me more about this voice? Is it familiar? How did you navigate it? He's been present in my life as far back as I couldn't remember, Sharon. He's a little tricks and I don't think he'll ever go away. His voice used to be really loud.
I used to listen to him more than I should. After the process, I was able to settle him down, and he wasn't so prominent in my life. But today, he showed up, and I I he was yelling at. I'm gonna do... We're just leaning alone. It's gonna be okay, and no. He kept saying no, no 1 needs to hear. You know wants to talk to you and I had to do some some stuff to get him to quiet down, but he was there. In interesting you mentioned post process, you were able to settle him down. You
took the process when. I... It was in 2004. 2004. So for those you listening, that is 20 something years ago. And here we are still able to acknowledge. Oh, there it is. My dark side is there, but did it go to the corner? I got this. Was there a time in your life pre process it might be where his voice was so loud that it actually got in the way of you act? Actually being present or going into action in your life? I think he was the main culprit for all of the quote quote problems in my life.
The not good enough, the un unbelievable, the all of the things that stopped me from taking a chance, it was his voice. And so what what actually got you to go to the process in 2004? So I had never gone through any sort of therapy or self help. That was frowned upon in my culture, if you will. And, you know, I was going through a divorce Sharon, and I needed something different and finding out about the process was a blessing for me, and I I had to do it and I did it, and here I am.
So the divorce was a genesis for it. Did you seek it out? Did it come to you? Strangely enough my in laws had done it, and they recommended it. For my now ex wife, and so she did it while, we were going through our struggles, and I researched it not knowing anything about the process, and I want... You know, I need this because I keep repeating bad patterns or patterns that aren't healthy,
and I need to figure this out. My intellect was what was the driving force to get me out of problems, but it was also putting me into problems. And I needed something different in reading about the quad process. At first, I thought it was a bunch of Hoc poc, but going through it, in realizing that, you know, there is some not some. There is a lot of a positive that can come from this. And so I went through it and here I am. And we're talking almost 20 years later.
This is still 1 of those pivotal moments in your life. Yes. I still have to look back, if I'm struggling or if I'm triggered by something an event, I have to figure out, okay, where is that coming from? And like I said earlier, I can quiet it down or I can recognize where it's coming from. And, you know, I just take a step back, take a breath and realize that whatever it is I'm feeling is only temporary. And at Hoffman as you know, we we look them at the generational patterns.
Right? Things that have traveled through the generations when you came to the Hoffman process, it was because you had repeated these behaviors in your adult life. But at the process, we go back and trace it back to childhood. What was that like for you to go back to your childhood? Wow. So, growing up, any problem you had with someone else's fault. So blame was the game. And in the process during the process, it was... I couldn't blame it on anyone. It was shown to me that, you know, my...
Struggles. My issues, my challenges were my own. And if I needed to... Or if I wanted them to go away, I had I had to deal with it. And blaming was no longer an option. How old were you? I think I was 36. Wow. And how would you say post process? How has your life changed? And and do you still see that? Process showing up in your life? The hoffman process without question was the single most impactful thing I've ever done for myself. As far as putting myself on a path to happiness to
joy, finding joy? It was everything for me. I can't talk about it enough to people that are interested in in knowing about it. I'll I'll I'll talk for days. Can you give me some examples of... What happened in your life afterwards? Did you go back to the same job? Do you obviously were in a divorce you didn't go back to the same relationship, but what kind of changes happened afterwards? So I can tell I can tell you the thing that happened immediately that I noticed and that was...
I'm driving home from the process. It's a 4 hour drive, and I'm starving. Again, I stop off and. I think it was a jack in the box. I placed my order. I'm in the car. I'm looking... I opened up the bag, and my order was wrong. I calmly without judgment without anger. I turned around. I walked inside. I said I think my order was there was a mistake with it. And, oh, I'm sorry, sir. So they fixed it. I got in the car, and I drove. And about an hour later I went, Who was that?
Because that's not the David that would have blown up, driven not even gone back would have felt that they did it on purpose. That they knew that I was coming, and I would have suffered through that for that entire drive home, had it not been for the process. Sure I love those moments. I still have those 2 where it's like, oh, this is that moment where I know. That pre process I would have responded to this situation completely different.
Exactly. That. And then even today, like, when I'm not connecting with someone or someone a coworker, for example, that they're just not. Liking what I'm saying, and I can say, that's okay. Who has before, no. You have to like me. Here's why and I... And I play out a 10 reasons why what I'm saying is right and why they should like me where it now. It's just like, okay. I'm done, and feels like a lot of effort to get everybody to like you. Oh my gosh. Sharon, it's so exhausting, and
I don't have to do it anymore. In our conversations, you had mentioned that post process. You you kinda reassess the work you had been doing. And we're looking for ways to bring spirituality or purpose and meaning into your professional life. Can you speak to that? Yeah. So I was in the tech industry. I was working in Silicon Valley. For Oracle Corporation, great company. I was killing myself, working as hard as I was and not for remembering who I was in
this process? Like, in the process of of life? Like, what am I working for the dollar, yes, but there's gotta be more to it. And so I was fortunately transferred out of the Bay area, to Northern Nevada. I live in Reno, Nevada now. Got another job, although it wasn't as high pace, it was somewhat of the same situation where what am I doing? And why? And so, I tell my students this, so I teach now at the university of Nevada at Reno I tell my students some people can't afford
to do what they really wanna do. And that was me. I thought that. But really, I I could have if I looked back at my finances. Yeah. I could have stepped away sooner, but I had this poor mentality mindset where I know I gotta work until I can't. Anymore, but the reality was I could step away. I fortunately was able to and now I get to do something completely different, although it's similar. I get to teach what I used to do, and I absolutely
love it. And how did you make that leap from tech industry? And this other job in Reno to teaching. I think it was a few angels pushing me in in 1 direction. I never thought of a career as a being a teacher. I never thought thought I would do that. I tried it as an experiment at the high school level, didn't find much success with it. I wasn't very happy with it.
Then a position to opened up at You r to be not only a faculty member, but to be the director of a brand new program, in the college of business in finance department. And on paper, I was not qualified. They wanted someone with a Phd They want someone with higher education experience, and I had none of that, but, thankfully, through the Hoffman process. I... Through my name in
the hat anyway. And went through the first interview, went through the second interview, and then the third interview, I spoke with The dean, And I told him my concerns and he said, you know, I look at your 25 years experience in this industry as a Phd. And he stood up, shook my hand and said, welcome aboard. This moment where you say, I wasn't... I didn't have those 2... The criteria. They said I need to have a phd. I need to have a higher education, teaching experience. I didn't have either.
But I still threw my name in the hat, and you say it's thanks to the hoffman process. But let's drill down how, what happened in you that propelled you to actually submit your application or submit your resume. When I look at the job responsibilities, what the university was trying to do? I knew that there was no 1 better qualified for that than myself. I knew it. I had teaching experience, all, albeit in the... At the high school level. But from the industry perspective, I did it
for 25 years. I was at 2 of the biggest companies in America, and I was... I I was really good at what I did. And I knew I could do it. So I wanted someone to at least hear me out. And we're not for Hoffman, I would have went out. I'm not qualified. I'm not gonna do it. And besides you're not supposed to like what you do as a job anyway. Right. All kinds of patterns right there. So so clearly, you did something to put those patterns in their place. That little boy, I set
him aside. And said, you know, you need to be quiet for a little bit, Let the intellect come out here and let your yourself come over and say, you know, what could it hurt to apply? Yeah. What would it hurt? I'm gonna apply and see what happens. That's what happened. And so now you are... What's it like being a teacher? Is it... What has come up for you in this change? So teaching at the college level is so much fun. You have
column kids even though they're adults. But they wanna know what it was like, a and a career in Silicon Valley, and they wanna know I call it the 3 pillars, You know, how much the... How much did you make? What was the work life balance and were you allowed to have critical thinking. Did you solve problems. And I touch on those almost every day in my lectures and they they love that. They wanna know the truth solve I get to give that to them because a lot of professors today, they're...
They didn't have that work experience. But 25 years that I did. And so when we are deep in a lecture, I'm going through a book the book in the the chapter. I'm like, okay. Close the book. Here's how it really is. You know, they're hanging on your where like, Really? And their hands are going up. Okay. Tell us about, you know, Larry Ellis and tell us about this. And It's a lot of fun, Sharon. It's a lot of fun. Wow.
It's interesting. I I do remember being in college, and wondering, Have my professors actually been out in the professional world not to take it away from you and talk about them, but it is something that I think is very important.
If we're going to be talking to people who are going to go out into our professional world, it's nice to be a teacher who's had, you know, got you had decades of experience to fall back on and kind of like you said, share some of the truth of what really happens versus staying in the... Hypothetical and philosophical. Yes. And so I'm also very real with them. So when they ask me a question, I'm okay, I don't know.
Great question. I used to think, you know, looking back at my college live, Like, I I used to think my professors knew everything. Of course, they did. They're professors. I tell my students all the time that I I wanna be that professor that I always. 1 when I was in school, and I tell him the truth. And sometimes I tell him too much. I tell him me how I'm feeling and what I felt at the time and We go through ethics and morals and why I had such struggles working for a gaming company
when I had several family members have... Gambling addictions. Like, how did you do that? Like, you know, I struggled. Can they wanna know the truth? I tell him you... You're gonna struggle as well? You're gonna be faced with some real hard ethical moral dilemma and you're gonna have to push through it. Oh, yeah. And so so let's... Let's pause there real quick. So you had a struggle. You were working... We didn't know this before beforehand. You're working at a gaming company, and you had...
Sounds like a moral or ethical dilemma around working for the gaming industry? Can you tell us a little more about what it was and how you navigated it? Yeah. So I think I mentioned earlier, sometimes you can't afford to do what you wanna do, but more than that. Sometimes you can't afford to do what you should do. And the company I worked for the... It was at
the time that... Largest gaming manufacturer in the world, all the slot machines and the the casinos were were manufactured out of reno, Nevada and I was making a lot of money sharon. The money was keeping me there. And so, you know, knowing... That I had family members struggling with gambling addictions, it ate at me, and I did as much as I could to ignore it
until I couldn't... That Wonder how many people in the world are are in this predicament where you're getting the salary that you need and you've got the lifestyle now that fits that salary. So it's hard to imagine not having that salary. But when you zoom out or zoom in whatever zooming you need to do and you ask the hard question of what am I a part of that stops you in your tracks when you get to the answer. I think more people... Struggle with that than they care to admit.
I really do. Well, and if you struggling that how long do you wait till you actually ask that hard question. Sometimes too late, unfortunately. And that's where the work of, like, what you did where you you had a catalyst in your life, but you chose rather than repeating the same behavior, you chose okay. I'm gonna pause and I'm gonna look in inward and
I'm gonna do some work. And because of that, 1 would hope that you had the... I mean, clearly, you had the courage to ask the hard question to get real with yourself to get real and honest about the answer and then make us. Scary change, and probably 1 that caused a lifestyle change. Oh, if you know anything about high school teachers, they don't make anything. And it was a struggle, and I was going through a second divorce at the time as
well. So the stress, the financial struggles, but Sharon, I couldn't go back to the corporate world anymore. I just didn't wanna do it. I couldn't do it. I was raising at the time he was 12 years old. I was raising him by my a son by myself. I knew the effort it would take, the stress on my life. I just didn't wanna do it. I needed it to be with him. And so we had a lot of top ramen for a while. But that's
okay. Clearly, it is because you were probably a better, happier, more liberated version of yourself at that point. I would think so. Yes. If I look back on it now, definite. But this transition from going to this company that paid you sounded like very well to a high school teacher. That's that's from 1 extreme to the other. You don't get more extreme than that. Yeah. And so... But through that, you learned, there's something about teaching that I do love.
So I I tell the story that when I would get these cards or letters after the semester it ended. That said, thank you so much. I love being in your class. That meant more to me than any bonus ever did. And I am not lying. That that was worth more to me than any bonus I ever received, and amplify that now with... There's an app called rate my professor. And so for the whole world to see what the students that you in I think of me. I look at that once in a while Wow. This is incredible.
Wow. That makes me think that, the power of... Sharing gratitude to somebody who's already in the role of providing you with something, whether it's a teacher or a nurse or a doctor the person checking you out in the grocery store. Right? We've already defined the roles. They are providing you whatever service and you are the recipient, but then pausing to thank them, probably means a lot to them. There are more negative reviews on Elk. Yelp than there are positive.
And people would rather complain than show gratitude. Well, let this be a source... Of inspiration to hear a teacher. I don't know that I've wrote to thank you note to my teachers, but I'll tell you I can remember the pivotal 1 still today. And now I wish of I wish I wrote a thank note to them. Right? So it it does make me realize that not only is it them practicing gratitude, and You know, that's an important lesson for them as students,
but it validated something in you. And then you continued, down that path and stayed in the world of education. And on a mass level on a collective level, we need good people in education, It's not easy to get people to stay in education. From what I understand that professors to high school teachers to elementary teachers. They're dropping out? And it's sad because what's more important than educating our our children, our students. So I wanna say 1 quick thing about.
Your son. It also seems to me the fact that he was around for that transition to see the ron and the real in his father struggling with that moral and ethical dilemma that you struggled with, landing on the decision that you did, putting it into action, to model that for our kids. Like you said earlier, they... Sometimes there's jobs
you can't afford to not have... There's also jobs you can't afford to keep he got to see that in real life and take that as a lesson with him as he navigate his own crossroads. You know? Last semester, the high school semester, my son, his name is Diego. He was telling me about a presentation he gave. To... I think it was an English class, and he had to talk about somebody that inspired him and and it was me. And that little kid me like, wait, what? What
did you just say? Like, you're the hardest worker. I know dad. I know what you do? I I watch you. Like, wow. Okay. Heartbroken broken. And you know it's interesting. You choosing those word hardest worker. It's not... You're the hardest worker for the money. Right? You already you already made that crystal clear that that's not why you chose this path. You're the hardest worker for the impact for the purpose for the meaning? Yes.
Without realizing it, and I still don't realize it because I'm driven by something, and I don't know where it comes from. We we sort of talked about this before that we started this recording, but I like to give back and I don't know why. I think it has to do with I wanted someone to help me growing up and I'm just that person that I always wanted in my life. So I'm that to the students that I'm with now. You're providing the help that you always wished you had? Yes. Do you
feel like you... You were able to do that while still... Maintaining a healthy balance and focused on you. You know that that's a great question because I do have to remind myself to take care of myself to check in with... Okay. Am I happy? Am I healthy? Am I doing what's right for me. You know, being a single dad is hard. And so I... My focus is on him, but I have to remind myself. You know, go for that bike ride. Go for a walk. Go out and have some fun with
your friends. And so I have to schedule that time in. Because that too is a lesson for him. Right? Absolutely. So I wanna switch gears a little bit, because not only did you take the process and go back and reassess and go through that... Crossroads of the moral dilemma and start this path of teaching. You also at 1 point wrote a book. Can you tell us about this book? I did. Wow. So I always had several stories in my head, and I always wanted to write a book, and
I remember 10 years ago. I started writing 1. And Sharon, I was an awful writer. I I just couldn't... Put 2 sentences together that made any sense coming from a finance background. My my writing was always facts and figures and I was gonna tell you what is it... What I was gonna tell you, and then I told you, and then I told you what I just told you. So extremely repetitive. Writing a fictional story or just a novel in a novel or even a short story. I couldn't do it. My brain was not wired, But
about 5, 6 years ago now. I had this dream, and I couldn't shake it. I woke up, and I remember thinking I gotta write this. I got a journal on this, so I started journal on it. The journal turned into a manuscript, and then I sent it off to a friend, a college friend, and I asked him what he thought of it. He's an agent, by the way. He said, I read 12:15 manuscripts a week, this is really good. Keep
going. So that was encouraging, and I just kept writing until I got to a point where I let others read it, being as insecure as I am with my creativity. I didn't want anyone to read it until it was perfect. So I became really good at editing and rewriting and rewriting. And eventually, I got to a point where I submitted it, and I'm very happy with it. It was published at the end of 2001 doing really well on Amazon, and I am with working on my second 1. Okay. So
couple questions here. I wanna talk about the topic of the book, but before I do this feeling of... Insecurity or vulnerability. Here is a creative expression of you. And then you put it out there. Here's my heart. Read it you know, how did you get to the point where you were able to share it with people and receive feedback? I think I lied to myself and said only 10 people are gonna read this so it's no problem. And really, that's I did. I lied to myself. There wasn't no one's gonna read this.
And as it turned out, lots of people have read it. That's how I got. Through it. And then once I got the feedback that this is really good. It didn't care that my guts were splattered all over the book for people to see. I take pride in it now as you should. I happen to be 1 of those people who read the book. You said it was published in 20 21? At the end. Yes. I imagine people are listening and saying, right.
I dreams every now, and then it never dawned on me to journal about it and turn it into a book. How how bridge that together for us from this dream to a manuscript to a book was there's something in you that needed to be told? Is there a story that is carried in your spirit that needed to be told that is embedded in this book? Yeah. So rein was always something that intrigued me. And intellectually, it didn't make any sense, but spiritually, it made a ton of sense.
And so I was... I've been fascinated with the topic ever since I read about it. And so I think it was in 20 15, 20 16. I had this dream about rein and what it really means. I just remember waking up happy, scared, excited. And I needed to write down before I forgot what the dream was about. But the dream wasn't gonna go away. And I had to realize that because it was something that came from Spirit, Sharon. It really did. And so I I started writing about what happens when we die?
What happens in the afterlife in a way that made sense. To me and make sense to those that read it. So you have this dream, it kind of tickle this thing that's always been in you about rein Next thing you know you find yourself writing about what happens in the afterlife. That's a big topic. I don't know if there's anything bigger than that, actually. And you were able to put it into a story format. Right? Yes. It's the question I think everyone that
walks the Earth asks. Which is what happens when we die. I think everyone asked that question. And everyone is driven by the fear of death, and the book says you don't have to be afraid, and here is why. That's why I wrote the book. I've been terrified of death. My entire life. I I still have tingling fears, but, you know, when that time comes, I think I'll
be prepared. I'm just smiling because I have read the book, which I recommend wholeheartedly and it's just interesting to know that you as the author had this fear of death, 1 of the foundational nuggets for this book. You know, there was a moment in the process. And I think it was probably the fourth or fifth day, where I woke up in the middle of the night, it was probably 2 or 03:00 in the morning, and I was balling
my eyes out. I was... I couldn't stop crying, and I woke up from a dream, that I had killed somebody. I didn't know if it was real or if it was a dream, and I I remember sitting up crying and then my roommate at the time he's like, what is wrong with you. I'm like, I don't know, but I think I may have killed somebody and he turns on the light and we're talking. He's like, well, of course, you did. You killed the person that no longer works for you.
You're moving on. You're journey on to something bigger and better. And we we hugged and I said thank you because I couldn't make sense of that what I had just dreamt about. And that's... Again, something from the process that Wow. I I just remembered that just now. I was always afraid of death, but no. Sometimes you need to kill yourself to to move forward. Yeah. Death can also... It can be a closure, but also an opening of sorts. And that's what the book is about. It's not the
end. It's a beginning. This story... This memory that you just had about the roommate makes me think If if I was more like you and I want it... And I could write a book. I fascinated by these people who cross our paths and are there in these pivotal moments like this 1, Here you are 2 or 03:00 in the morning, waking up balling, saying,
oh my god. I think I killed someone in this beautiful person, Whoever they are, you may not even remember their name, who knows was right there for you and gave you the exact track message that you needed in that moment. I think we are surrounded by angels, and I think we are also angels that need... We just need that gentle touch at the right moment. And I think we can be if we recognize the moment. Beautiful. So basically, we've got Angels looking out
for us. And we ourselves are angels who want to be giving to others as well. And not only do you believe it you've embodied it? Your your life is an expression of having angels help you and show up for you? And you being the angel for people who are obviously close to you like your child, but also
students and people who cross your paths. And now people who read your book, it is so hard to recognize those pivotal moments in our lives where the dots are being connected of because of this this happened because of that. Now I'm here. I tell the story to my students that I went to San
Diego state. And I was struggling with the major that I was in, and I changed my major 5 times from math, to chemistry to geology from un undergrad, and I went into the career office, and I wanted to meet with my counselor who I'd never met before, and I didn't even know who it was, and I wanted to become a business major, And I'm sitting there waiting, and there was this other student she was 19. I'm suspecting maybe 20, and I told her what I wanted to
do and she laughed. She's like, do you realize that's the most impacted major at the university that it some people are waiting 3 years to get in. And I said, no. I didn't know that. She's like, you know what you should do. You should become an economic. Nature. You can get in right now. And I went really and yeah. And then businesses look at your economics degree just like a business degree. Like Okay. Now I'm an economics major.
Graduated with the degree in economics from San Diego state fast forward, Like, if it weren't for that Angel at the time. I wouldn't be talking to you right now. I wouldn't be teaching at the University of Nevada reno, there's so many pivotal moments that at the time. I had no idea what I was doing. Yeah. This concept of these beautiful people. Who sometimes are unnamed, and sometimes we even forget them. But in those moments, they show up and they push us exactly where we need to be pushed.
My last question is, is there any part of the book that you wrote, which by the way is called between here and there. Is there any part of it that to somebody who hasn't been through the Hoffman process might feel like the experience of reading it is like going through the Hoffman process. There are many moments in the book where the main character, his name is Ray. He goes on a spiritual journey. And he meets a shaman who puts him
through a vision quest. But each moment, I modeled after the process. And so yes, an answer to your question, if you haven't done the process. When you recognize when the character again, his name is Ray. He makes a change or he decides to do something. It's because of the lessons that he's learning, which are similar to what happens in the process. Yeah. There were moments as I was reading. I was like, oh, this See what's happening. There's some parallels here. I
can see them. I can see them. But there are also moments in the book where it has nothing to do with the process. And I try to trick the reader. I try to... Throw some bread crumbs out there to let lead them in 1 direction and take them in a whole different path. And so it's... There's a lot of suspense. There's some drama. And some humor as well. So it's not all touchy feely. I think there's a, like,
where where do you categorize that book? I would put it in in multiple sections, but action and adventures where I would put it. Yeah. I will say that I was 1 of those people who was very surprised, especially towards the very end, and I won't reveal anything, but, you really got me towards the end of that book. You really got me I ended up having to write, you know, people are listening a conversation, but I had to write you a text. Like, wait. What what happened?
So, yeah. It was... It definitely got me at the end there. You know, 1 of the things I learned from the process, which without going through it. I never would have even thought of the concept, which was we just spiritual beings in a body and having... Learn that it makes life, I think, tolerable and fun and adventurous because we're not human. This is just the vehicle. The meat vehicle we're currently in. It's gonna go away, but our spirit is gonna live on. Beautifully said.
It's a beautiful place to leave us all. David, thank you so much for being here with us and for being so real and honest and present and vulnerable. And and thank you for putting that book out in the world. A what treat. I strongly recommend it between here and there. And it sounds like there is going to be other books in the future. Yes. I'm working on part 2 of the second book. So I do leave a little... Cliff Hanger at the end, and I answer multiple questions in book number 2. Sharon, thank
you for having me. I really appreciate it. Of course. I'm looking forward to that second book because I still have questions. Thank you, David. Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza and Rossi. I'm the Ceo and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. And I'm Asking Grass. Often teacher and founder of the Hop institute Foundation. Our mission is to provide people greater access to the wisdom and power of love. In themselves in each other and in the
world. To find out more, please go to Hop institute dot org.