Hey everybody. Kristen Ne is our guest. Today, so much of the process is about self compassion, and it's not every that you get a chance to interview really an early pioneer in the field, 1 of the early researchers of self compassion, Doctor Chris and ne. She hasn't done the process yet, but near the end, she talks about doing it at some point, and so we'll get a post process conversation with her. But for now, enjoy this conversation about her research and the power of self compassion.
Welcome to Loves everyday radius, Podcast brought to you by Hoffman Institute. My name is Drew Horn. And on this podcast, we catch up with graduates of a process and have a conversation with them about how their work in the process is informing their life outside of the us, how their spirit and how their love are living in the world around them, their everyday radius Hey everybody. Welcome to the Hoffman podcast, doctor Kristen Ne. Is with us today. Welcome, doctor Ne. Oh, thanks I'm glad to be
here. We are so excited that you are here and, you know, we talked so much about self compassion and you have made it your life's work. So we're grateful. You graduated from the university of California, Berkeley, you're an associate professor of educational psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. You've done so much work a pioneer in this field of self compassion, research and even creating a scale to measure this almost 20 years ago.
You've been recognized as 1 of the world's most influential research psychologists. You've written numerous academic articles, book chapters on this topic, and your 2 powerful books, self compassion, the proven power of being kind to yourself, and your more latest book, fear self compassion, how women can harness kindness, to speak up, claim their power and thrive. Thank you for being here. I'm happy to be here. I was thinking about you in this field early on. I know it comes.
Self compassion comes from the buddhist traditions. But I imagine there wasn't much research on it. What was that like early on deciding that this is where you wanted to go and put your research energy? Yeah. So again, the idea of having compassion turned inward as well as South, is nothing news, an ancient idea. I mean, if you look at early Christianity, accepting Jesus love, you know, Buddhism, kind of omni directional compassion.
The the idea is, but in psychology, no 1 had really looked at compassion for self. It really only examined compassion for others. So what had happened was, I had done 2 years doctor drill study with a leading self esteem researcher. And I was studying self esteem and all the potential downfall of self steam, like, you know, you have to be special above average, you, your best isn't good enough. You also have to mean it set standards of looks
or how much people like, etcetera, etcetera. I was thinking that, well, self compassion is the perfect alternative you know, where self esteem is a fair weather friend, it's only there for you in the good times. Self compassion is there for you in the bad times. You know, when you really need a friend and it's much more stable. And so I just thought, well, why not give it a shot. Why don't I try to define this thing and measure it and see what happens and that was 20 years
ago? Now there's over 5000 studies on self compassion. I can't keep up with the literature. It's really huge. So it was 1 of those things where I just took a chance, and it paid off. I know you've spoken a bunch about how it doesn't exist in our culture that there's so many myths about it. It's misunderstood stood and the dominant culture kind of views it the opposite, which is that if we're tougher on ourselves
will do better. Can you share a little bit about what you're up against and what self compassion is up against in the culture? Yeah. Well, there are actually 2 things. 1 is cultural, and the other is evolutionary. So I'll I'll talk about the cultural first. Our culture has a lot of myths about. Self compassion. Like, you know, people are say, well, can you be too self compassionate?
Well, no, compassion is, concerned with all, suffering, So it's kind of an oxy moron to say you can be, you know, too concerned with suffering. Because if you're doing something that's causing suffering, in other words, too much. Then no longer self compassionate. So people get confused, for instance, they think it's weak that it just means like, you know, just being soft and squishy, quite the opposite. You know, when you go into Battle, who do you want by your side? Do you want an ally,
self compassion. You know, I got your back. I'm here for you. I'm here to support you. You save that to yourself. Versus shave... Shame and criticism and pulling the rug underneath your app for out from underneath yourself. That's actually not gonna make you stronger that gonna make you weaker. Other ones are that it's selfish, you know, because people... Sometimes people can be
selfish. So... They think that giving compassion to yourself means not giving compassion for others like it's a 0 sum game, which, of course, is not because compassion is a connected way of being with suffering. And so therefore, the more compassion I have for myself, the more resources I have available to give to others. It's not it's not a 0 some game at all. It gives you... Gives you the ability and the strength to continue caring for others without
losing yourself or burning out. But what we find in the research is that the number 1 block to self compassion, By the way, this isn't just american culture. We find this all over the world is the belief that under undermine our motivation. You know, we'll lose our edge, we'll lose our drive. And that's because people think that being really hard on themselves, Like if they make a mistake or call short of their standards, are really self flag, that that's gonna make them try harder. And
it's actually very similar to parenting philosophies. Right? What we used to think spare the rods spoil the child And so it is true that harsh self punishment calling yourself names might get short term compliance just as harshly punishing your child will get short term compliance. Okay. I'll work a little harder now because if I don't, Be in trouble. Right? That's kinda of what we do with ourselves. The problem is all these knock on side effects that are actually un...
They're actually negative for your motivation. For is instance Shame is not exactly get up and go mind state. I'm depression. Also undermine your motivation. You lose self confidence. You create performance anxiety and create fear failure, which means you don't wanna take risk because if you fail, you're gonna slam yourself with criticism, And, of course, if you can't take risk, you can't learn and grow. So just as with kids, what we know is that the more effective approach is encouragement.
So the bottom line is, you know, whether you win or lose, whether you succeed or fail, it doesn't affect your self worth. In other words, I still love you or I can still love myself as a human being, whether I succeed or fail. In but that self love doesn't mean that we accept behaviors or situations that are harmful. That's not loving. Right? It's that wouldn't be loving to... Kid that they weren't potty trained by each 10. There's a problem. Right?
The motivation of self compassion, it's there, but it comes from care, not from fear. Kid Right? So we motivate ourselves because we want to reach your goals is we we want to be healthy. We don't wanna continue to suffer. If we fall short, that's okay. It's only human. This is really important. Self compassion encourages learning goals. In other words, well, It's okay. Everyone makes mistakes. It's only human. What can I learn from this? How can I grow? How can I do better
next time? It's opposed to say, I am a failure. I'm worthless. I'm hopeless might as well just give up. So the research is is pretty clear. It's a much more effective motivator than self criticism. I hear resiliency in what self compassion helps create. Absolutely.
Absolutely. There's so much data, you know, whether it's people dealing with Covid or dealing cancer, or I'm dealing with combat for instance a lot of research on self compassion among combat soldiers, showing that soldiers who are more self compassionate about the trauma they faced overseas, especially more situations they're much more likely to get through it. Less likely to develop post traumatic stress syndrome.
I'm less likely to turn to drug or alcohols way to deal with their pain or or either the ultimate escape, you know, suicidal idea aviation is a way to deal with the pain. And that's because what self compassion is, if you just break it down the word, Passion means to suffer calm means with in inland. How are you with your suffering? Are you with your suffering in a warm supportive
encouraging way. You know, it's, like, accepting ourselves while doing anything we can to help the situation just like you would for someone else you cared about? That type of support makes it easier to get through the tough stuff because it gives us the ability to hold the pain without being overwhelmed by. Another way you can think of what self compassion is wholly pain with love. So it's very painful. This is really difficult.
We hold ourselves with love with kindness with support with warmth with the sense of connectedness to the greater whole during that pain. And what happens is a, the pain is less overwhelming because we we don't spiral into negative loops like depression, anxiety, etcetera. At the same time that that love that feeling of connectedness, it feels good. Is actually a positive emotion. So we aren't tapering over the negative. We aren't, like, sugar coding it, we're saying out.
This really hurts or I did this. It's really painful to admit that I did this. But, you know, but that's okay because I'm in perfect. All human beings are perfect just because I made a mistake doesn't mean I am a mistake, How can I learn and grow from this? And that sense of support and warmth there's a positive emotion that leads to happiness that leads to Optimism that leads to hope. So it's really a transformative
way to deal with our suffering. And I think if if we don't have it, then it's very hard to get through the tough times. Doctor F, you spoke already about some of your research. And this feels important for people who are trying to understand it. People are trying to figure out whether to buy into it. That this is empirical, like research proves through thousands of studies, as you've said that self compassion works. Why do you think the research is so important across multiple fields
that people understand that. Well, 1 is because we have these myths about it. Right? So we're afraid it's gonna make things worse. And it's kinda interesting. The fact... That we're afraid to be self compassionate, it's kind of an act care because, you know, sure if it's gonna make it worse if it's gonna make us lazy if it's gonna make a self indulge, We wouldn't wanna it, it wouldn't be helpful.
So that feeling of care ironically is often driving herself criticism because we think at some levels, some part of us do things is going to help help us get ourselves in shape or maybe, you know, blunt the pain of criticism from others. The research is really important. Because it kind of says, hey. You know, give it a try. The research shows it's not gonna make you into all these things you're afraid it's gonna make you into try it out for yourself. I mean, ultimately,
the research only goes so far. You have to try being more kind and warm and supportive to yourself and see what happens. There's also another thing that I'd mentioned briefly, we didn't go into, it which is evolution. So, you know, if you're so who beat yourself up. Please don't beat yourself up for that. It's actually really natural. And that's because by evolution, we're designed when there's problem like when we fail or make a mistake. This
a big problem we feel threatened. We're designed to go into fight flight or freeze mode. The So we fight ourselves because we're the problem. Right? We think that maybe again, we'll get ourselves in line or they we'll tough ourselves up, to be able to handle things. Are we flee into a sense of shame and isolation, are we freeze? We like rum. We get stuck. It's, like, maybe if I just think about it for you, 59000 times a problem will go away.
It's a very natural reaction to threat, but it's actually more effective for situation like a lion chasing you than it is for, like, you look in the mirror and you know, like we'd see. The care response is also an evolved response, also very natural. But it actually evolved to care for others to care for our offspring, you know, parents who are more carrying and compassionate. Their their babies more were more likely to live, and group members who are more compassionate and helpful to others.
They were more likely to live. We kind of have to do a half. I were using this system that evolved the care for others, and we're doing a u turn and using it for ourself. So it does feel a little weird at first. I'm not gonna lie. It's very beginning feels a little awkward. It feels like you're faking it. It's only because you're used to doing it for others. But after a while, it starts to feel very natural. Like, well, sure who... You know, why am I not worthy of
care just like anyone else. And then once you start using that care system to support yourself. Is actually more stable over time, a more reliable source of support than self criticism. That awkward that... Uncomfortable feeling of trying it out for the first time, feels important for people to understand that because it feels awkward doesn't mean it won't eventually work. Which... Can you say a little bit more about that? Yeah. So,
we left to say that it... It's not so important what you feel it's how you are relating to what you feel, which is really interesting. So self compassion isn't tickle, you know, emotion. It's not like I feel warm and fuzzy or I feel good or I feel safe. Mean, often those feelings do arise, But it's really how are you relating to whatever's happening? So what's coming up is difficult or challenging? Are you being supportive?
Are you being carrying? In other words that care is driving you to try to do what you can to help. The comfort is 2, they're gonna make changes that are gonna be helpful in some way. So if what's coming up for you is do I can't do this. I feel like a total phony. You don't have to, like, just rest your awareness in what's coming up for you. You can be relate to that, oh, wow, that's tough. That's stuff that you really wanna try to be self compassionate. You feel like a phony.
That's uncomfortable. What would you say if a friend said that to you? Be like, oh, Yeah. Well, just can give it a try. See see what happens, Maybe hanging in there. I'm here to support you. Really, it's a way of relating to the contents of what's coming up as opposed to a particular form of what's experience itself. And this is so important because no matter what comes up. You know, good, bad, and indifferent, numbness, you can relate to your experience with an open heart.
Right, with with care, with love with kindness with the sense of goodwill. And it's that goodwill that really, at the end of the day, creates the the good benefits of self compassion. Even if you don't feel it. Even if you like a total phony, but I'm trying I'm making an effort. Okay. Well, then that counts. And then eventually that effort, even if it... At first, it doesn't feel naturally, eventually, the effort will start to pay off because it's the effort is goodwill, which is
actually the magic ingredient. It's not whether or not you're feeling compassion in the moment that's so important. Wow. Goodwill is the magic ingredient. I love that. Earlier you mentioned that research only goes so far and part you're talking about now is the importance of giving it a try, allowing that goodwill to begin to wash over us And I'm I'm imagining that that's what you did in those early days. You were both researching and practicing it as well in your life.
Yeah. Well, I mean, actually, fortunately, for me, it was a practice before I started researching it, I probably had maybe 3 or 4 years of self compassion practice under my belt before I started researching it. You know, and and I found self compassion at a really low point. In my life. I had just gotten a divorce and it was really messy divorce, and I was feeling a lot of shame, a lot of self doubt, a lot of ina. And there's also having given a lot of stress because it was actually my last year
of graduate school. Uc see Berkeley. I had spent all this... Time and money in years, you know, getting my Phd in the job market, It was pretty crap. You know, there's not there's not many jobs out there and I was like you know oh my god, It wasted time of money, am I gonna email to pay the bills. So it's under a lot of stress.
And so I actually, learned self compassion through a mindful group, who taught in the tradition of Tick na han, who's Zen recently passed Zen teacher who who always talk about the importance of turning compassion inward as well as that word. I've been took me a while learn mindfulness meditation, you know to quiet my mind or to, you know, be able to to do that took quite a while to be honest. But I almost immediately saw the benefits of self compassion. I came home the Night... The
first the first course I went to. I came home and I said, okay. Well, you know, okay I'll try talking to myself, like a friend then. Okay. Kristen. It's it's really hard time. You're feeling badly, and I'm so sorry. You know, it happens to everyone. You're not the only 1. How can I help? I, care about you.
And I just when I did that, it immediately made it easier to cope instead of saying you you screw up, you know you're you're calling myself names, which made it harder to cope, keeping myself at understanding that support. There's 3 components of self compassion then I talk about there. If kindness, which is kinda obvious. It's mindfulness to be able to turn toward the pain, but really important is humanity. Compassion is grounded in a sense of shared humanity.
Under is wisdom practice understanding that, hey, we all just trying the best we can with the limited resources we've been giving. Life is not about getting it right. It's about getting it wrong and learning from those mistakes but we all know this.
But we forget it. And so compassion at its core is a sense of really just under standing that moment by moment, we're doing the best we can, giving ourselves support, not not having these unrealistic expectations of perfection And really, it's really about letting go of the ego. It's the ego that says, I should be able to get it all alright. Everything should go well for me. You know, this signed up for birth with that plan. You know, show me the
contract. That's not would be a human being is about. And when we let go of the ego, and we realized we're part of a much larger hole that things happen. You know, we didn't choose our parents. We didn't choose our genes. We didn't choose our culture. We didn't... We didn't choose a lot of things. We're just kind of moment by moment, doing, you know, the best we can. Again, moment after moment learning and trying with this kind of sense of this care, this love that's driving us forward.
Once we really understand the depth of that, then everything just becomes easier to deal with. I've heard you say at times that you say to yourself, I will not abandon you. Yes. That's 1 of my favorite sayings to myself. You know, probably not surprised united a father that left when I was too, so you don't. Everyone has their own little button issues Right? But don't we usually abandon ourselves? I mean, just when we're down when we need ourselves the most.
We shame ourselves, We number ourselves, We distract ourselves, we collar ourselves knee. We're mean to ourselves. You know, instead of just saying, hey, I'm so sorry you're hurting. I am here for you in terms of psychotherapy models. I really think internal family systems is a really useful model where we we talk about different parts of ourselves. Enough on what happens is these parts of ourselves like the self critical part or the fearful part, they're trying to help as best they can.
And what happens when we shame them or we shut them down or we judge them. They like, they get scared, and they try to take over the system, like anger for instance, often takes over the system, because it's so desperately afraid that if it doesn't scream and shout, it won't be heard. So saying to our our negative emotions or these difficult parts of ourselves. Hey, I promise you, I will not abandon you. It's like, okay, I feel safe. I could relax.
And then you can start working with these various emotions that are trying to help as opposed to trying to work against them, and it it's really powerful stuff. In the process, we talk about surrender, and the importance of surrendering to our higher self, our spiritual self, as opposed to submit and submitting to the rules the guidelines you actually surrendered to you. And there was 1 anecdote you shared.
I really appreciate how in your research and in your writing, you intertwined the research with the personal anecdotes with your son on the airplane. The story I made up is that that was a... Powerful moment of surrender. Is that how you saw it? And can you share a little bit about that moment? Yes. And it was... That was 1 moment, but... I mean, those those little moments. It it doesn't have to be big and dramatic. These little moments are all what... About what's self compassion is really.
So the story is that I'm, I was taking my son on a transatlantic flight from Austin to London and he's autistic. And it was right after dinner, and they they turned the lights down, so they everyone get some sleep, but that really startled my son very environmentally sensitive. And so turning the lights all sudden, set them off on a huge, screaming, fl tantrum on the plane. Very So I was just feeling overwhelmed, and I I felt bad. He was being really disruptive All these people are
trying to sleep. I was, you know imagining they were judging me because was about 5 at the time. He looked normal, so they were probably thinking, you know, what's wrong with that kid. Was wrong that mom? Why can't she control her kid. And so I just felt he complete overwhelm. So I I came up with the plan. The only plan Could come up with was, Oh I know. Take them to the toilet, let him have a tantrum in there and maybe, you know, John on the screws out. So we get to the toilet, which was,
of course occupied. Right? Because the plan life had for me in the moment was not how to escape it difficult situation, but what do you do and you have no options. So what I did is we actually was probably not sanitary, but nonetheless, we got on the floor. And I made sure he wasn't harming himself or a just destroying the plane. But what I did was I just... At that point, I knew my only option in times like that was really self compassion. There was very little I could do for him,
but I just flooded myself with compassion. I put my hands on my heart. I started walking myself. I started, you know, mumbling out loud. It probably looked funny, but I didn't care at that point. You know, this is a hard, darling. And I'm so sorry. I'm here for you at care. I love you. You know, I just flooded myself with compassion.
And then what happened in that moment, and it really happens in any moment of compassion is instead of being lost in, again, kind of the contents of awareness, In particular emotions, the pain, the screams, the drama, my awareness moved to the the love holding the pain, Like, that sense of care, that sense of connectedness, That sense of awareness of I'm here for you. I will not abandon you. I care. And so that actually became my predominant experience.
And that actually what happened with s f with my son is, my son was able to resonate with my calm, compassionate mindset, so then actually, he started calming down, and then I was able to actually help him, and then he... Eventually the tantrum and we were able to go back to our seats. You know, I really can't emphasize this enough and it's it's really related to what I said before about it, it's not so much what's happening is how you're relating to what's happening.
Because if if you believe, you know, and I do, and this is may be getting a little spiritual, but in awareness itself is love. You know, you don't... Don't have to believe this is no scientific data for it. But at least my experience is, you can be in the state of loving
awareness. So it doesn't matter what's. You happening if it's pleasant, unpleasant, painful, you know, Joyous, If you move your your kind of sense of self from the contents, which is thoughts especially thoughts of, thought, so this is bad. This is good. This is shouldn't be happening. This... Whatever it is to just being you know, loving connected presence, with which actually the 3 components of compassion, love, kindness, connection, common humanity presence, mindfulness.
You start to you start to identify with loving connected presence, which as you mentioned, it's not really yourself anymore. When you are... Connected with loving connected presence. You're connected with the larger, big self. God, you could call it awareness, universal consciousness as no matter what you call it. And that's really that's really what you're doing with every moment of self compassion if you're surrendering. You're giving up the Ego
identification with. But it thinks should be or shouldn't be and you're moving into that larger universal consciousness, which is loving and connected and present. So it is... It's scientific, but it's also really a spiritual practice. And for me to be totally honest. There is no difference. I think when I hear you talk about that, you use the word love a lot, and it feels like understanding self compassion. Is a practice in understanding what love really is. It is. Now 9... I normally don't use
love. I don't call self love for instance. Just... Because the word is so misused. I mean, a narcissist might be said to love themselves. Right? So the word is, and you can argue whether or not they really do, but nonetheless, the word is kind of not specific. That I like compassion because it has that sense of connectedness in it and it's particular to suffering. That's why I don't use the word self love just because it can be too easily be mis.
But ultimately, of course, there's love in compassion. So both 2 parts, but not only the kindness but the connection. And this connection again is so key. You know, that's what makes it different than self pity. Self, Hoodie is the sense of separation, feeling sorry for yourself, feeling sorry for someone else. Compassion is the sense of connecting is, hey. I've been there. We all go through this. And it's that connectedness that manifests love.
In some ways, some some people talk about, you know, when awareness recognizes itself. It's experienced is love. The sense of connectedness in compassion, the sense of it's not just me that I'm that... This experience is part of something much larger than the particular thoughts, feelings emotion sensations that are rising in this 1. This 1 kind of human body right now. That's manifest as love. It's, you know, not romantic love, it's more of a the sense of just deep connection and ocean
of love and connection. And that's what we're tapping into with self compassion, Having said that, and I I've I said all that, and people may be thinking all that sounds wonderful. I want some of that, but remember, whether or not your act actually feeling that ocean of love is not an indication of whether or not you're you're doing me being self compassionate. Maybe you're just saying, oh, man, I wish I could feel that great loving ocean right now. Oh, well, I'm here for myself. I'll keep
trying. Again, it's really the goodwill. That intention, that intention that usually, you know, after time, eventually, we'll yield those good feelings, but it's not about the good feelings. It's about the goodwill. And the good intention. That feels really important. It is important because people get stuck on it. I think if I'm not feeling it, it's not happening, it's really just setting your intention to try to help as much as you can, moment my moment.
And you aren't... Here's the thing you, the small u, the little you that thinks you could control things aren't in a lot. It don't have a lot of control about what... What's actually arising in the moment. You know, there's so many causes and conditions that are so much faster that are small cells that are responsible for whether or not what arises in that moment. Is a feeling of ocean love or a feeling of bitterness and numbness. You know, so just let go of that and just try to rest on a is
Goodwill, heart open heart. I'm just trying just doing the best you can moment by moment. That's enough and eventually will pay off. In the process, we have a poster that says my life is my responsibility. And Carter what Hear you're saying is you can't control those things and get your reaction is where the the power comes from, how you react to it or respond, but, I guess, Qualcomm has a similar great saying. It's not my fault, but it is my responsibility.
Right? In other words, yeah. So what happens? We we we don't have control over. But there's no other audi mind and particular point in time and space that's in the right position to take pre responsibility other than you. But So it is your responsibility, but you're causing your in control of things that happen. What you do have some play with is this intention. That's why intention is this is the silver lining or the the gold dust or whatever you the magic.
Because through our intention, we can, like, move our intention toward trying as best we can through goodwill to have good outcomes. And so that's where our responsibility is the the effort. We just try our best. We just try our best. And in terms of what actually happens, we aren't in a lot of control over. It's gonna be frustrating because it sounds so
ne and and it is Ne. It's not 1 of those really clear cut things, and you know, right now, I'm talking not someone to scientists because these things can't really be scientifically proven, but more someone who's practices for... 30 years now. I've just seen it happen over and over again.
It's really about that edge of intention opening your heart, moment by moment opening to what's happening with the sense of connectedness, being willing to turn toward and be present with what's happening, feeling love towards yourself or any other conscious being that's in your presence in the moment. And just taking it moment by moment. And as you... Say that I'm remembering the story of your son, how we define love is the rendering the flowing
of emotional goodness to our cell first. And then to others in our life and he felt your self love. And as you said, he was able to soothe himself like sounds like connecting with your own deep self compassion. Yeah. Well, that's the way the brain works. You know, we know they're mirror neurons brain is sec. Designed for empathetic resonance. So just as we feel the pain of others, we also feel love and good passion of others.
You know? So I couldn't... He couldn't actually regulate these emotions, and I couldn't regulate his emotions directly, but I could help regulate his emotions by regulating my own emotions because his ability to emphatic resonate with my mind state because the extra quite close, actually helped calm him down. So I will think I just a slight issue with. I'm not so sure it's the case that you have to love yourself first. I think it's... Probably more accurate to say
that you... We shouldn't separate ourselves out of the circle of compassion. What's happening with love is we're recruit... We're we're lifting that sense of separation. So if you were to love yourself and feel separate from others, you know, you you could do that route, but really, I think the the key is just kind of losing that sense of separation. So when you have others and not yourself, you're feeling very separated.
If you feel... If you love yourself and not others, if you're feeling separated, you know, if you can kind of lift the veil of separation and let the love just flow freely inward. And outward simultaneously to me that's really what the state of love is. You mentioned Narcissist is earlier the only self love. Without the connection and being in the circle of compassion, creates separation, it feels important
distinction. That's right. And it's really about the exposure of the illusion of the separate itself. We all have different eyeballs with the the light shining out of my eyes is the same light that shining out of your eyes even though what we see is different. The the love is what's kind of focusing on that shared light as opposed to what
we see, which is is quite distinct. I wanna ask a question about you personally and as your notoriety, you're you're profile, your research has gotten more famous and the increased exposure. I was just checking out online some of the reactions to some of the talks that you do and there are trolls everywhere, but it seems like I'm just curious about how you have navigated sharing your story as openly and as vulnerability, as you have... As your profile has risen in the world.
I don't read it. They don't tell me if people are saying Nasty things about me, because I don't wanna know. I don't read that stuff. Yeah. I just just myself. I'm authentic and whether... There's praise or blame. It's kind of their issue. Not mine, you know? I know you have connected with 1 of our teachers, Kevin Aye. You guys have collaborated together. Is that right?
Oh, yeah. He's acting as the interim executive director for the nonprofit I found it with Chris G called the sender for mindful self compassion, and he's just a savior. For our organization and he started telling me about Hoffman and it became interested. So like I said, I haven't taken the process yet, but I planned to this year. It sounds like it's a natural fit, you know, different ways of going about it. I'll pass leave to the same destination, I think.
Maybe we'll catch you after as well to get your sense of how the overlay works. Yeah. Sure. The next step of some of your work, which I think it's really fascinating is that if it works for the individual and the challenges of one's own life, why wouldn't it work in global challenges such as climate change and undoing racism? Can you share a little bit about how you see self compassion, supporting those domains in the work in those areas,
Yeah. Yeah. So, my latest work, the my last book focuses on fear self compassion. And so, and again, I didn't come up with that term and in Buddhism, fierce compassion refers to action oriented compassion. So for instance, Han, he was, you know, and from Vietnam and there's a lot of social justice movements to end the war in Vietnam and So social justice work, which is caring for, you know, groups and trying to prevent harm and injustice is often referred to as fierce compassion.
What I realized is when people thought about self compassion, they were pretty much only thinking of its tender accepting side. Which it does have. So we we accept ourselves unconditionally, flaws and all. We accept the fact that sometimes life difficult in our emotions or sometimes, you know, negative or hurt. But compassion is not just about acceptance. We accept ourselves, it's but we don't accept all our behaviors or all our situations,
especially if those behaviors... Or situations are causing harm, Right? And that's when action oriented compassion comes in to protect ourselves if we need to, if someone's, you know, crossing our boundaries, for instance. Or harming us in some way or treating us unfairly. It's not compassionate to accept that. We need to stand up. We need to be brave. We need to take action. We need to say no. Also, an important part of self compassion is taking action to meet our needs. Right? To
say, hey, you know, I'm important too. I'm not more important than others. I'm... You know, I'm not gonna subordinate my needs to those of others. I'm gonna take time and energy and use some resources to meet my needs. But And then, also again, as I mentioned, motivating change, which is the biggest misconception. So you might say that if tender self compassion is the pro typical mother, for yourself compassion is a produce difficult mama
bear that, you know, fierce protective energy. It doesn't matter if you have kids or not... Your male female, whatever non binary. Doesn't matter. That that energy of, you know, fierce protection that's part of our biological nature as also a part of, self compassion.
By the way, people may be wondering why wrote my book for for women, are people socialize this woman, mainly just to kind of, call out gender socialization was just such a number on us because it says that people who are, you know, called male, they're allowed to be fierce, but not too tender, and if they're cry or sensitive, you know, we're gonna bully them, causes a lot of harm for people raised as males. And for people raised as females. They aren't allowed to be too fierce. We
don't like people that are too fierce. We have different names for women are 2 fierce. We don't like them to get angry. We don't like them to, you know, say no. We don't like them to stand up for themselves too much. And so I think gender socialization is really hard to everyone because we both need the fierce and tenders. It's like, yin and young, we need both to be healthy and whole. And gender socialization is kind of split estimate between these
2 construct... Called gender in a way that I think is really, really harmful for everyone. And I I wrote the book for women just estimate because they kinda came out of my own experience in the me too movement and a really nasty situation I was part of, and I realized that a lot of the women involved in the situation, they were really kind of felt uncomfortable getting angry because it had been socialize out of them.
And really seeing that this getting angry and injustice is an intrinsic part of compassion. And it was just too much say well for minute. It works this way and for a moment, it works that way. And also non binary folks, you know, in some ways, it's like, double. The problem is everyone shoved it to a shoe box. And if you're non buy, you
really don't fit that shoe box. So it's really just trying to call attention to these artificial shoe boxes we create a the limit people no matter, you know, to from being their true authentic, compassionate beautiful selves. You have a great graphic using bears. That I think we'll put in our show notes in case people wanna check it out. So this this protective mama bear energy of fear self compassion. It's not just protecting ourselves, because, of course, self and others are intertwined.
Right? So if a particular group is being treated and just You know, all the ism, sexism, racism, age, all the different forms of oppression, if we really care about ourselves because we, ourselves is the larger self, then we really also need to care about all these forms of oppression. It's a really important aspect of compassion is extending it fighting for social justice, including the planet. Right? It's not just people, also the planet And so I think self compassion is so
key for these efforts of social justice. In in 2 ways, not only because that mama bear energy spur to protect ourselves by protecting everyone ensuring justice is done. The planet is treated in a way that's sustainable, but it also helps the 10 yourself compassion helps kind of soothe and comfort us for the incredible pain and despair that often arises when you start actually looking at the problems facing our
world. So we need both the tender to hold the pain of the the harm being done, and then the fierce nest to really commit. Not letting it happen as much as we can in the future. I do know that later in this season, we're gonna have Chris Ge on, and I just appreciate your partnership. What has that been like with a man to c create and to collaborate on such important work? I like to joke that Chris is my most functional adult male relationship of all big
relationships with males my entire life. He said it's probably been the most functional I think because it's just true love and respect for each other. He's just such a good hearted man, and we connect on so many levels. And, you know, we don't also green, We bought heads, but when we disagree, something better always comes out of it. Right? From our disagreement. It's just been amazing. So the mindful self compassion program was true c creation.
Chris bobby even took more time and effort in terms of, you know, developing the teach teacher training program, for instance in getting it out there in the world. It's just 1 of those in instances that it really brings home that 2 heads are better than 1. I know having... Joining with his head has definitely created a lot more value in terms of how do you actually teach it to people in a way that they can use in their real life? He's a genius at
that, it's really thanks to him. That self compassion isn't just a research topic, but actually is a practice, and I was assist training... Taught over the world. Thank you, Doctor. Ne. I'm so grateful. I'm Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza and Rossi. I'm the Ceo and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. And I'm Asking Rossi. Often teacher and founder of the Hop institute foundation. Our mission is to provide people greater access to the wisdom and power of love.
In themselves in each other and in the world. To find out more, please go to hop institute dot org.