Today's conversation with Mike Robbins reminds me of the power of authenticity. He is so embodied, relatable and full of wisdom. He opens up about everything from an injury that ended his Ml career early. His own mental health struggles and how he was so inspired to dedicate his career to helping others. He found the process that time later in life when he needed deep family healing. He then shares the healing power of so many different aspects of the process.
Hope you enjoy and are as inspired by Mike as I was after our conversation together. Welcome to Loves everyday radius, A podcast brought to you by the Hoffman Institute. My name is Liz Sever and on this podcast we engage in conversation and learn from Hoffman graduates. We'll dive deep into their journeys of self discovery and explore how the process as transformed their internal at external worlds.
They share how their spirit and light now burn brighter in all directions of their lives, their loves everyday radius. Hi, everybody. On today's episode, I have the pleasure of interviewing and speaking and getting to know, Mike Robin. So hi, Mike. Yeah Taylor liz. How are you? I'm doing well. I could introduce you, but I would actually love for you to give us a little bit of background on... Who you are and what
you do in the world? Oh, jeez. Well, that's kind of like a really simple question, but a very loaded 1, I think for all of us. What I do in the world? Well, I talk a lot, so I actually have a podcast of my own, and for the last, almost 22 years, I have been a...
Professional speaker. So I deliver keynote and workshops and seminars, most of the work I do is in the corporate world for big companies like Google and Wells Fargo and Microsoft and Schwab and ebay and I've written a few books on topics like appreciation and authenticity and leadership and teamwork. So those are the things that I usually get invited into, speak to people and teams and leaders about inside of these big companies that we partner with. So that's a little sort of nutshell of what
I do in the world. But I I came about doing this work that is kind of an interesting way I. I actually grew up here in the Bay area where I still live, I grew up in Oakland, and I played baseball growing up as a kid,
and was pretty good at it. I actually got drafted out of high school by the New York Yankee, didn't end up signing a contract with the Yankee because I got an opportunity play baseball in College at Stanford, so I went to Stanford and played baseball there and then got drafted out of Stanford by the Kansas City Royals and did sign a pro contract at that time and the way it works in professional baseball here in North America get drafted by a major league team,
like the yankee of the royals or any of the other 30 teams in the major leagues you have to go into the minor leagues, and there's a whole bunch of levels you gotta kinda work your way up to get to the major leagues. And, unfortunately, for me. Not an uncommon story, but I got. I was a picture, and I tore l in my elbow when I was still in the minor leagues at 23 years old, and then only 2 years 3 surgeries later, was forced to retire from Baseball, and I was 25, but it started when I was 7.
So it was a pretty big personal challenge to overcome, but taught me a ton about life and growth and adversity and healing and all kinds of things, but I had also become really fascinated by some of the human and team dynamic aspects of playing sports. And then when I got my first, you know, like, real job after baseball, I was working for an Internet company in the late nineties and sales.
Who wasn't all that interested in online ad sales and the Internet for for the sake of it, but had just taken a bunch of personal growth workshops outside of work and then that coupled with kinda looking at a lot of the dynamics within the team and the company that I worked for and I just sort of thought maybe I have something to contribute to this, so that's sort of what got me on the path of wanting to try to teach and speak and
coach and and work with people. So it's been quite a journey over the last couple decades, but that's kinda how I got started doing what I'm doing. I mean, beyond fascinating, incredible. I could not have introduced you any better of a way. But, yeah, what a fascinating story especially kind of taking it back to baseball. So take us back 25 and your careers over. It was... I mean, well, you know, so I grew up single mom in Oakland. We didn't have a lot of money.
Huge sports Fan. My mom was actually a Pe teacher, and she was the 1 that taught me how to play Baseball and I a kid because my dad wasn't around, and I like playing Baseball, but I also really liked being good at it, and I like that I got a lot of attention for it. I'm a I'm a 3 on the. So, you know, like achievement performance. I'm like, oh, I'm good at this thing and people seem to think it's important. So this is
a way to get love and attention. So and I did enjoy the game itself, but I, you know, was so sort of goal oriented and driven that once I realized I was actually. Good, like, high school time. It's like, oh, I could probably play in college. Oh, I might be able to play professionally. Then it just became a big part of my identity, but I wasn't just Mike. I was Mike the baseball player. You know, who went to Stanford and got
drafted by the Yankee. And then So when I was in the Minor leagues with Kansas City, now, I had gotten injured my senior year in high school the first time. So I heard my arm. Didn't really know what it was. And then my freshman year in college, I missed the whole season and had an operation. I couldn't quite figure out what it was, but I was dealing with a decent amount of. Pain.
So the reality that, like, this might not work out was very much present in my mind, but had a couple good years in college and then got drafted by the royals and signed, and then it was like, hey. I wanna make it to the major leagues. I wanna make a bunch of money and get famous and, like, this will be, you know, the answer to all of these problems from growing up. I'll take care of
my mom. We'll have some money all that stuff and, getting hurt and then the series of surgeries that followed and then coming to the realization that this wasn't gonna happen for me was devastating and heartbreaking surgeries you know, and I had basically played baseball for 18 of the first 25 years of my life. So when I was forced to walk away from it, it was like, who the heck am If I'm not a baseball player. So it was hard. It was really hard and definitely, you know, sent me.
Down some pretty dark paths at at that age as you can imagine. And then landed in you said Internet sales? Yeah. So I get a job. You know, it's the late nineties, move back home to the bay. It's like, dot com boom time. I get a job working and add sales for this Internet company. And, I don't know. I'd barely not turn on. Computer and they, like, give me this job, and I'm like,
okay. You know, whatever, I guess, like it's, you know, but the thing was like, the the previous few years I had gotten really, really depressed when I was in college. My junior year at Stanford, like suicidal depressed, and it was super scary because I mean, anybody who's dealt with depression or mental illness knows how scary and painful that is, but I come from a family with a ton of mental illness. My dad had pretty severe bipolar disorder.
And so many people and my family struggled with depression and anxiety and bipolar pull all kinds of things, and everybody's was on medication. It was this thing, and it was like this big I didn't totally understand it. You know, as a kid.
I mean, you know, what does it mean that my dad's manic depressive and he's like, not around and can't really engage and big, I don't know what that means It's 7 years old, by the time I was in college, I understood it a little bit more, but it was the mid nineties and people weren't talking about mental health in the way they talk about it now. So I had a lot of shame around it and a lot of fear because I was like, oh, shit, This is gonna be the rest of my life is just struggling
in and out of depressions and, like... And so I spent some time in college, and then all the the years I was playing professional baseball. I was kinda going in and out of episodes of depression and just really scared about that. And now with Baseball over, it was, like, I didn't even have an area to focus.
Like, that's where I could focus a lot of my attention and my anxiety was like, I'll be really good at this thing, and that'll somehow, maybe make me feel better, which it didn't really, but that was sort of the, you know, story in my brain.
And so what ended up happening was, like, I had to come faced face with now, I don't know who I am in the world and what I'm gonna do, and I'd never really had that thought, you know, even though I only 25 years old, like I was pretty clear and pretty focused from a very young age, and I went through a really bad breakup. And I'm still dealing with some of these mental health challenges. So I was like, oh, god. I'm kind of a hot mess here,
like, I need help. And so what I got more into was, like, I was in therapy, but I just...
My uncle who was a therapist told me about an organization called Landmark Education, which is a, you know, sort of modern incarnation or told me at the time of the s training, which I know, you know, there's some connections all the way back to Bob Hoffman and how that all came about, but, like, I got really involved in doing workshops through landmark and that sort of and found out there was this whole world of,
like, personal growth, but also very specific... Specifically like, transformation, and that really helped me both with my transition from baseball, but also with a lot of the mental health challenges I was dealing with and not only did help me personally, but then I got really excited and turned out. Like, I wanna do more of this work myself and I don't know. Maybe I could actually teach some of this stuff? Could I help
other people? Could I, you know, I was young and in experience, but I thought I feel like I have some kind of interest in passion and maybe even some talent to do this. So that was kind of the deeper sort of process for me around starting to do the work that I've done now for the last 22 years. It was very personal. And it's kind of like I mean, I I did the often process, you know, back in 20 16, but it would be sort of like, someone
coming to the process. As I'm sure, Liz you did and everyone who teaches it and going, oh my gosh. This like, change my life. I think I want to do more of this work, and I I'd love to be able to get trained to actually teach this. Totally. And that... I mean, that... I mean, just to think at 25, you were starting to take, you know, a hard look at yourself in those areas and the insights.
It's just incredible to think that that then manifested into this discovery, and now I'm assuming... I mean, when did you write your first book How old were you? I started my business in 2001. I was 26 about turn 27, and I started speaking and coaching at that time, and I had the idea for my first book, which... Called focus on the good stuff. It came out in 2007. So I was probably 32 when I got the book deal for that and then wrote it that year and it
came out. I was 33, but that had been kind of a long time coming, and I, like, that book I rejected by, like, 25 publishers over the span of 5 years, and I
just kept hearing no. No. No. And, it was an interesting journey just to go about that whole process, and it was actually after after the birth of our older daughter, Samantha who's now, 16, she was born and then about a week later, I said to my literary agent at the time who kept getting all the rejections and Finally, she was like, you know, I don't think it's gonna happen on this 1. And I was, like, screw it. I'm ready to write this book. If I have to self publish it, I will.
And then my agent said, well, hold on a second. Let me ask a few more publishers before we decide to go that route, and then she called me back, like, 3 days later. Second. I gonna believe it. All 3 of them are interested, and it was the same book proposal that we've been getting rejected the whole time. But something in me had shifted and I was like, I'm ready. And I can look back on that liz now and with hindsight and perspective and a
little more wisdom. I can see it literally wasn't until that moment. Know, people talk to me all the time about? How do I get a book published? And there's all the practical stuff, but then there's, like, the emotional and even spiritual meta physical part of it. It's like, well, I don't know. There's a lot of different ways to go about it, but I think it's when you're ready, you'll know, and it'll manifest. It's kind of how a lot of things happen in life, you know?
Yeah. Well, if you could articulate it a little more. What are you looking back, what do you think some of the the qualities or what what shifted in you? I think up to that point for me at least, I was waiting for some kind of external validation or approval or, you know, I mean in some practical way you gotta get a publisher to say yes, they'll publish the book.
So that does have to happen. But I was waiting for someone to say, sort of put a magic wand over my hand and say you're ready to write a book and publish a book. And, like, that wasn't happening because that's not the way it really works. And it was just something in me. I actually got a little pissed off to be honest. Finally. And it wasn't that I was pissed about the rejection, although that didn't feel very good, but I was, like, tired of waiting. I have something to say and I'm going
to say it. I mean, the world that exists now for what it's worth not to get too far down the rabbit hole of publishing and all that. There's so many more platforms in which we can. I mean even you and I talking on a podcast like this, didn't exist in 2006 when I got that
book deal. So the way that we can get our voice out into the world and publish something and write something or say something, is so much easier now than it was then, although there's a ton of noise out there these days, so it's harder to kinda have people pay attention to it, But at the same time, like, 10:15, 20 years ago, there were only certain avenues you kinda had to go through if you wanted to put your voice out into the world in that
way and that was 1 of them. But I finally had realized like, I was just waiting for the powers the b to tell me you're ready as opposed to really kinda stepping into that and claiming it myself. Yeah. 1 of the books right authenticity you're just finally realizing for yourself. And then to do this 1 way or the other. Yeah. Absolutely. And I and I think look, I mean... There's a lot we could unpacking that itself, but I do think, like, if we're really...
We really have something to say. We really have something we want to put out into the world and manifest, it happens when when we're really ready to do it, and it doesn't usually happen before that. Well, then fast forward us... To the process. You said 2016 is when you did the process? When did you know you were ready to kinda go to the process? Why I heard about the often process, gosh. I mean probably. At least 10 years if not almost 15 years where I did it.
And I I will say to people sometimes, I mean, people listening to this have either done the process or in in thinking about it or whatever, like, in the early days, when I first found out about it. It was, like, oh, my gosh. I wanna do this. I'm so excited to do it. And, like, I couldn't really afford it. And then by the time I could afford it, and Couldn't find the time to do
it. So for me, there was just sort of the practical reality of making it happen, you know, once we started having babies and I'm traveling all over the country, and Anyway, the the long and the short of it was, I actually wanted to do the process for a number of years leading up to it, but it was finding the right time.
And then in 20 16, my sister Lori died early that year of cancer, and she struggled with ovarian cancer for 4 years, and it had just been really, really hard, and it had come on the heels of our mom, had passed away of lung cancer, 9 months before Lori got diagnosed, And so we went through this feeling my sister went through a really hard divorce. My mom got diagnosed with cancer and died very quickly after the diagnosis.
My sister and I go through the whole process of her dying and unpacking so much both emotionally and practically and, like, selling the childhood at home that we grew up in and then Lori gets diagnosed with cancer, and we go through just a 4 year pretty gnarly experience, and then she passes away and I just felt like, for a lot of reasons, I need some time away. I need to... Unplug from my life as busy and full as it is and just go deeper into some of my own healing. And, know, I do a lot of
I joking. But, seriously say, like I have a team of people that that work with me and have for years therapists and counselors and coaches and, like, I need kind of a lot of support and Always have, but doing the process really felt like it was time. And at the end of 20 16, I was able to carve out the week and, Michelle, my wife was totally supportive, and I went and did it. And it was really, you know, looking at all my patterns and
looking at different things. But for me, it was, like, can I make some deeper peace with my family of origin? And is there a deeper level of healing around my grief, which which is what really led me to the process? Yeah. Because they can imagine just being in the work that you are and sort of your knowing what we now know of just how
you came about the work. Some of Hoffman was you know, familiar to you, but it sounds like this diving deeper into family, you know, trauma history origin that is really what Guided you there. Yeah. Absolutely. My friend Rich, D S saint John, is 1 of the cofounder founders of a great organization called Challenge Day. Who's done it ton of personal growth work and it's been a great mentor to
me. Said to me years ago when he talked about often and he's like, it's the best family of origin, healing program I've ever done and maybe just the best overall personal growth experience I've ever had. And for all the stuff that I've done over the years in the different workshops and retreats, and I I don't think I'd ever done anything where I went somewhere and I was fully off the grid, and unplugged and fully immersed in the experience.
In the way that it happens at Hoffman that I of the many things that were wonderful about it for me, was that just to you know, unplug from the world and just go within into my own process. No pun intended, but like, to really do some of that work and it was phenomenal for me on so many levels.
I love hearing that too because I'm I'm in the middle of, you know, meeting students that are coming for an upcoming process, and the amount of nerves around in hesitation and, you know, t tribulation, all of that around disconnecting from the film from the world, and then I find, you know, I'm always like, let's check in on how you're feeling about this, you know, at the end of the week or even the middle of the week because I do I hear... From students time and time again. It's like,
wow. That was 1 of the most powerful things is I don't give myself that kind of time, that kind of attention Totally. And I think... I mean, I would imagine, you know, for me now thinking about it 6 years later since when I did the process. You know, and just going back. I mean, it seems like every month and every year that goes by for better or worse, like, our lives are so consumed through our devices. You know, most everyone listening to us right now is probably listening on
their phone. And so I think about my phone is this beautiful device that can connect me with the world and I can publish on it, and I can talk to people I love and I can see what's happening in the world and I can share photos and memories and all these wonderful things and it takes me out of my life all the time. In ways that I'm aware of. In some
ways I'm not even aware of. And so that in and of itself, yet turning off the phone and turning it in at the process was like, super scary and uncomfortable and like, oh gosh, you know, we have young kids at home at the time and all the things and for me at least, I remember getting it handed back to me And I'm like, I don't think I want this thing. Can you hang on to it for another at least couple days. I'm good. Before I have to re engage with the
world. So totally, we put them out there and they just sit there. You, I'm like, don't don't. Forget your phone on the way out if you like. I don't want it. I don't wanna turn it on. Totally. And, you know, and... But but I think it's like... That aspect. Again, it's so simple on the 1 hand, and there's so many different places. We don't have to go to hop presses turn off our phones or put them away or put him in a drawer or disconnect from, but so hard to do that.
And it's not impossible. It's not like I can't have you know, a meaningful conversation or a beautiful experience in my life with my phone on and in my pocket. I mean, that can still happen too, but there is something that's so important about being able to disconnect from that and and super challenging. I know for me personally and just about everybody I know and interact with.
Yeah. I I think what you're saying of, you know, it bring it can bring connection, but can also bring the disconnection, you know, where patterns come up or the numbing or the coping comes out and so it's. What I always find so it's such a powerful reminder when that's not there, where do you go? Totally. Well, and another thing just an interesting like, when when I went did the process, it was also about a month after the election in 20 16.
So remember just how crazy things were and that election had been so crazy in the out come, you know, even people who are pleased with the outcome, like nobody expected that
that was gonna happen. And so there's the k and all the intensity and stuff going on in our own lives, but then there's also stuff going on in the world, and it was so interesting to go up there us and do the process at that time and disconnect from, you know, my own life and the day to days of my life and my business, but also all the news and everything happening.
It was a trip, but but also, you know, really liberating and important I think for me, and I always love to ask, podcast guess, when is a moment in the process that you really kinda landed there, it broke you open or just something that really sticks out in your memory from that week. There were a number of things, but what just popped up into my mind when you asked that was, at 1 point, there was a woman in the process who kinda looked like my sister Lori.
I've got... I'd had a few conversations with her felt. And at 1 point, I just went over to her, and I said something, And I... I'm I probably freaked her out, but I was like, you know, you look like my sister and you remind me my sister. And then I just started sobbing, and she gave me a hug, and I was like, I really miss her. And as simple as that might sound, like, giving myself permission to just feel the sadness. And the grief and they're, like, I missed my big sister.
There was... I don't know something really healing about that for me. And she said, she, you know, we had only met few days earlier I was like, of course, you do. I know you. And it was like, giving me permission that it was okay. That for me was a really few a really powerful moment, and it just felt like, wow. You know, there there was some sense of being in that circle and in that space there that I didn't have to carry that all by myself or something, if that makes sense, totally.
I mean, I know another thing I love about happening many. But really is that the group energy because it can... It just as a reminder that while you can, you know, start your journey or do some healing individually, there's so much power in taking that leap or going on that journey with a room full of people that start off as strangers. And before you know it, have just infinite lessons to teach you and uncover about yourself. It's part of why I find the work so powerful. Yeah. For sure.
For sure. Wasn't and also just realizing not that I didn't know this before the process, but there was a level of We're all just carrying a whole bunch of stuff. And, yeah, of course, it's personal, and it's related to each of our lives and my whole story and my parents and my sister, all the things but it's kind of like, there's a universal to some of it, even in all of its uniqueness that I just
love. Mean, it's 1 of things I love about my own work and when I'm reminded of, like, the more personal, the more universal, the more, you know, the deeper we go into the truth of what our experience is, the more it's like, oh, yeah. You feel like that. I feel like that. And it's that terminal uniqueness they talk about in 12 step, which is, like, can easily get to be this trap for me, and I think for a lot of us thinking, like, I'm the only 1 that feels like this. I must
be weird. There must be something wrong with me, but being around other people, nope. We're all just bumbling our way through being human as best we can. Absolutely right. Shirt. The... Humanity, the shared humanity of it all. And I think that that's just so important to even just as you were talking about, you
know, it... Common brings us together, and it also just reminds us that our our patterns are, you know, our Dark said, whatever wants to keep us Isolated and small, and the more we can just show up bigger and brighter and in a room full of people. It's like, oh, actually, in a good way, I'm not that unique or my pain, my suffering, you know, isn't just mine. Other people have shared it and seen it, and it I just so healing. Yeah. For sure. Well, and
I would say for me too. I mean, the biggest thing, my experience of the process. My sister had just died earlier that year so that was really up for me at the time, So I was processing through a lot of grief, And, you know, both my parents have passed away. And my dad died back in 2001 when I was 27 and my mom died in 20 11 when I was 37.
And so a way in which I would say, and even 6 years later looking back on it, there was a level of compassion and forgiveness and empathy that came to me in a really powerful way through doing the process related to both of my parents and my sister. And again, I had done quite a bit of work in that realm with them, but there's just something about that when I think about my parents now
I have my moments. You know, it's like, my my dad basically left when I was 3 and wasn't really around for much of my life at different times. You know, and I have... I'm the father of 2 teenage daughters and, you know, sometimes, III will say to Michelle, my wife, like, I go to the well and there's nothing there. I I look on the hard drive and there's no files. Like, what do you what's the dad supposed to do in this situation?
No idea. Right? And I think in the past, I would have probably wasted some time in energy being pissed at my dad or like, wow you didn't teach me that, you know, but I just kind of will laugh sometimes about it. In this way of... Well, of course, like, there's nothing there because I
didn't experience anything there. But, hey, cool. I get to make it up myself and figure it out or I get to reach out to people in my life now who I know who I love and trust, and it doesn't have that emotional charge for me, in the same way, or I think about
certain things. You know my mother was who raised me and I have a lot of love and appreciation with my mother and, you know, my mother was a human being with all of her flaws and fo and limitations, and, you know, I just feel this sense of when I think about them. I don't feel like I have this Polly, overly ideal versions of them. But at the same time, I also don't feel like I have a lot of energy around blame.
And and it sort of felt like, before I did the process, a lot of that was a mental construct for me, after the process, it was much more of an emotional and spiritual experience if that makes sense. Oh, totally. And what I hear in that too is just this... Under current of self compassion. Yeah. Although I will say that that 1 continues to be the real challenge for me. It's and it's funny because literally 1 of the books I wrote
back in came on 20 14. Called nothing changes until you do is about self compassion. So it's something that I'm interested in passionate about know how important it is loved all the stuff and in the process about that, and it's still, like, I find that to be the hardest for me is to really go to that place of acceptance and forgiveness and compassion and love for myself. So that's an ongoing kinda of work in progress for me for
sure. Can we dive into that a little deeper because I hear this all the time from people, And I mean... It's a question I ask and struggle with at times too, what is it about self compassion that feels difficult or, you know, still challenging at times for you. I would say, I mean, the concept not difficult at all. And, I mean, again, like many things, like, I can talk to you about how important Is for you to be compassionate with yourself. Come on, Liz, let's go,
like... Yeah. I got you. You you know what I mean? Like you... I'll love yourself and you're so amazing and you should see that and know that and feel that, and you don't have to be perfect. All the things. Right? I can say all the things. I can write all the things. I know all the things. I got all the affirmations. But when push comes to Shove, down deep within me. It's like that dark side for me. There's just a lot of really sort of deep conversation of, like, and,
yeah. You better do this. Or don't do that? Or you suck with this? Or you screwed that up? Or, you know, this, like, pretty harsh inner critic inner sort of dialogue G as I used to call it in my early days of coaching that just is, like, still and I'm a 3 on the. So again, it's a lot about achievement and performance.
So there's just this kind of drive in me, and that still thinks even though I know better and have learned this many, many, many, many, many times over, that if I just accomplish that next thing, whatever that next thing is, that's gonna be the thing that's gonna have me go, okay, You're good now. You can relax, you know, and it seems to be this sort of ins never ending cycle if I'm not. Prepared.
And, look, I'll go through phases, and I would say for for what it's worth the last couple years I think with Covid and with everything that's gone on in my own life personally in my business and just in the world, it's like been a challenge. For me. III wrote something recently about the the difference between vigilance and discipline. And I realized that for years, I've just sort of thought of vigilance is like more intense discipline, but in reality, for me, at least,
vigilance is this really harsh. Very shame based very like, I can't not do this thing. Whereas discipline is a little more of a choice. And, like, hey, I choose to take care of myself in this way or practice this or, you know, get up in the morning and meditate or, you know, right at this time or or whatever, but there's more space to it. And so for me, the challenge is around like, the obsessive that thinks I have to...
Do 58 things in order to earn my worth and and self compassion as opposed to just accept it and and granted it, if you will. Yeah. What are some practices that you sort of lean on or go to in that in that realm? Yeah. I mean... You know, my meditation practice has been and continues to be super important to me. You know, journal is really important to me. And something like when I do those things as simple as they are
just just huge for me. And, like, you know, moving my body every day if I can, whether I just go on a short little walk or I do something a little more intense, like those kind of basics, And, I remember years ago, Elizabeth Gilbert, who I love a wrote pray love and a bunch of other great book. She I I saw something that she did. It was a... It wasn't a ted talk. It was some just short thing, and she was talking about
as a creative person. And she was just, like, gets to take care of your animal. And I was like, what? Meaning, like, you know, like, the vessel if you're tired and you're, you know, annoyed and upset and like, flustered all the time.
Like, if you're wanting to create something in the world, You're not gonna be able to do it as effectively, and and it was entering when she said it because she was coming at it from a creativity perspective, but what resonated with me was just thinking about myself as an athlete. And I was like, there was so much stuff I did for all those years playing baseball that I just, like, had to take care of my body in certain ways so
that I was... Capable of being able to go out on the field to compete. And again, I have to be careful in the way that I think about this to balance. I don't get super obsessive or, like, vigilant about it. But I still think, I mean, I'm 48 years old now. I haven't played Baseball. You know, the last time I pitched in a game. I think I was 23.
But I still think of myself as an athlete in some ways for better or worse and in that way, it's like, what do I need to do to prepare myself to be in the game of life? Whether it's my work or my family or my marriage or, you know, being a father or whatever. And so again, a lot of those things and even, like, going to Hoffman, or going to do q 2 or, you know, when I go away, sometimes I'll even go
up. There's a place up in Cali where I'll go right but that's also where I go and sometimes we'll retreat both Michelle and my wife, and I will go there. But taking time to unplug and get off the... Treadmill so to speak, which has been a little more challenging over the last couple of years in the midst of Covid and everything else, but doing that so that I can actually unplug and recharge and kinda go a little deeper and pay a little more attention to
how and feeling and what's happening. Those things are really important to me. I just appreciate your honesty around all of this because what I hear is just the the honesty of... I still have patterns, and I'm still working on them, and I will continue to work on them, and I think that's just such an important reminder. The evolution the journey doesn't stop. For
sure. I mean, and look, I I everybody's different and we're at different stages and phases of life and in different cycles, and I feel like we do cycle through things. I mean, sometimes for me with some of my patterns. It's like, I'll see some big shifts, and I'll feel real, oh, like, wow, like, I'm free of that. And then it'll show up again, and it's like, shit. I thought I was done with this, like, what the... You know? And if I'm not. I can go into that
super self critical. Like, you know, I know what you're doing or you thought you were over this and you're not and it careful as opposed to just like, oh, I'm revisiting this now in a different way at a different level. I don't know why, but, you know, the ones that
kinda come up time and time again. It's like, okay, more work to do here, for me both as a human being and a student of life and my own growth as well as a teacher in the work that I do, I've always been drawn towards authenticity, not just like as a topic of something I've written about, but just as someone who's lived my life with a decent amount of anxiety and insecurity. Times Like, am Doing this right? Is what the hell going on? Is anybody else feeling this? Like, am I crazy?
And just trying to reinforce, like, that's 1 of the things that draws me the things like the hoffman process where it's like you get getting a room with people who start to get real and you realize, oh, Okay. I'm not alone. I'm not crazy. I'm just dealing with my own version of human ness, and at times... It can be painful and challenging and confusing. And when we all sit around and tell the truth about our real
experience, I feel like it. It's super liberating to and it's a reminder that, like, growth is in a straight line up that I just, like, learn this and learn this and learn this and I get to some place of, you know, enlightenment, and I'm all good. I don't know anybody like that, and I know some pretty amazing, and pretty evolved human, but, like, most people when they get real. It's like, yeah. I was doing great, and then I ran it into a wall and fell down and was like, oh,
I'm screwed. And then I had to get back up and figure out what was going on. And, you know, I mean, and I think again, over the last couple years, I've just been really humbled as I think a lot of us have. 3 years ago, if I had said to, I guess what's about to happen. You would've have thought I was crazy, and you also would have thought, like, there's no way that could happen in the world. And if it did, there's no way we'd be okay.
And I think, you know, to whatever degree everybody listening has been impacted, by the pandemic, it's like, this has been a lot. For just about everybody I know. And even the people I know who've done relatively well during this time, most of them are, like, either embarrassed admit the out loud or just kind of like, walking around a little bit on eggs shells. Like, I don't know what I did to deserve just having a relatively good pandemic, but I'm not gonna say anything
out loud because I don't wanna jinx. You know what I mean? But most of us are dealing with some level if not a significant level of trauma in general, but especially just over the last couple of years. And I don't know that we're gonna be able to fully unpack it for a while because we're still not all the way through it.
And I say that none is linked, to be negative or pessimistic or woe is me or blame the circumstances, but I just think it's like when there's a fire, you know, the smoke is in the earning impacts everybody when there's a storm, you know, the house can get flooded and that doesn't mean anybody screwed up. It just means that's what's going on. We have to make our way through. The various storms and this has been a pretty big storm for most of
us. Yeah. And something else that, I wanted to circle back on was the topic of authenticity. And what advice would you give for someone that were to say, I just don't know my authentic self? Or how do I find my authentic self? I look I think that's a good question. I think that's a very real honest question. I think it's often starts with just telling the truth about what we do know and sometimes what we do know is I don't know. Right? Don't know what my authentic itself is.
I don't know what's really real. That and of itself ironically is a usually a pretty real statement. I'm confused about this or I'm not clear about this. You know, So it starts, like, like a lot of authenticity is curiosity and inquiring into what's real and what's true? And the reality is as weird as it sounds? It's like it evolves over time. I mean, 1 of the things Jay you're asking me about my first book. That I wrote when I was 32 years old.
And sometimes I'll read some of that back, and I'll cringe because I'm like I can't believe I thought that. I can't believe I wrote that, And it's not just like I thought it and I said it. It's like in a book that's published out in the world, but I can't take back. Right? But again, I think that stops us sometimes from really saying what we feel in any
given moment some fear. And now, again, we're all publishing whether we're writing books or not with social media and everything for better or worse, and it's like, oh my gosh. Have you ever had something pop up in the little Facebook memories 10 years ago today, and you read it and you're like, jeez? It could be a positive thing or it could be something I can't believe I said that or I did that or I thought that or whatever.
We evolve as human beings. So for people who struggle to know like what's true and what's real. It's kind of a moving target and I do think doing things like the often process doing things that have us inquire more deeply into who we are and unpack some of our patterns. I think it's important because we're sort of doing peeling back the onion all the time.
You know, so it's not like there's that great saying, you know, there is no way to piece pieces the way, I often say there isn't a way to authenticity, like authenticity is the way. It's about being real. And being true. And the things that we believe when we believe them are totally true like, we're raising adolescence right now, which is both incredibly exciting and super challenging. Pandemic, and otherwise, but just like I watch and listen to our girls, are daughters who I absolutely adore.
But and I say this with love and respect to them in every other teenager on the planet. Oh my god. They're insane. And I mean that because like they say things all the time and I look in their eyes I'm like, they really mean this. This is really true. And like an hour later because or a day later, they'll say the opposite thing and it's really true. And I'm like, wow.
I remember feeling that way as an adolescent or and we're trying to figure ourselves out at that stage of life, like we still are much past adolescence, but it's like, You know, So again, that's a long sort of convoluted way to answer your question is that sometimes we don't really know what's real and what's true We have to just keep asking and keep looking and keep digging. And we start to get closer to the truth, and you can kind of feel it.
So for me, it's just like, how do we create spaces where we can really tap into what we think and what we feel and what's true for us. And the other thing that I would say is that what can really help and you talked about it earlier in terms of the group process at Hoffman, but just being in environments in being around people where it's safe to be real, where it's safe to tell the truth, and some of us weren't raised in those environments. Some of us aren't used to being
in those environments. Know 1 of the things I do list when I go in and work with companies. Like, I'm working with sometimes pretty big, high level senior leaders executive leadership teams, and we sit sometimes in a conference room or sometimes at a off outside location or wherever we are, but, like, 1 of the primary things that I do with these teams that I work with is just give people permission to tell the truth. About what they really think and how they
really feel. There's a really simple exercise that I do with teams that I learned from my friend, Rich Tutor Saint Johnny started that organization challenged day many years ago, but it's like, we just do a process and exercise called if you really knew me. And I always start. I set it up and talk about what we're doing, and it's like, we're lowering the water line on the iceberg, and it's, like, I just start by saying, if you really knew me, you'd know
this about me. And then I just share 3 or 4 things that are true for me in the moment that are vulnerable and authentic and just about life about the moment about the group about business... But whatever I mean, it's not like I don't plan it just if you really knew me in this moment, here's what you'd know.
Right? And it could be, like, I'm feeling excited to be here, but also really nervous because, like, you guys are super smart and just intense, and there's a lot going on, and I hope I can be helpful, and I'm not sure if I'm going to be like, I will literally say that, and they've paid me a lot of money to come up and help show up and help them, but I will tell the truth about, like, I'm a little intimidated or, you know, whatever, not to get too weird or overly purpose,
it's like, you know, my wife, and I just got gotten into huge fight, and I'm, like, Feeling bad about some of the things that I said, and I wanna go and repair that, and I can't do that until later, so I'm holding that or whatever the heck it is, but just real true, and then I open it up for them to share what's real and true for them. And again, it can often be awkward or weird at first, but once people start telling the truth, it's like you can feel it in the room.
I don't have to know them to know if what they're saying is actually true and authentic. I can feel it. Like, oh, yeah. That was real. It landed over here in my body. I can feel that that person just told the truth. And what's amazing is it becomes this sort of energetic field if you will, in the group that makes it safer and more conducive, and it creates more of what we call psychological safety.
And again, you don't have to have a group around you to support you in order to do it, but finding yourself in groups where that is the case, makes it that much easier for best to get in touch with what's real and what's true. Beautify. Love just even circling back to that that statement. If you really knew me, you'd know this about me. That's is something that just listeners can just ask themselves in the here and now and
practice that. And 1 exercise like, even if you just do this on your own, if just open up a page in your journal if you happen in a journal or... You can do this electronically, But just at the very top of the page. Is just right? If you really knew me, dot dot dot. And then you don't have to even share with anyone if you don't want to. But it's like that's a way you could write in your journal just tap into. If we really knew you in this moment. What do you think? And what do you
feeling? What's going on down below the water line of the ice berg so to speak for you. And that's a way to just start inquiring more deeply into what's real and what's true for me. And the thing is Like, you might be doing great right now. Or you might be doing terrible, but 1 of the many beautiful things we talk about in the process is like emotional language that and really expanding our capacity.
You know B brown just wrote a great new book, called Atlas of the heart where she talks a lot about this and language and distinction around different emotions. And that is interesting. You know, we ask each other. How are you and people say I'm fine, which is like, what the hell does that mean? Like, how are you really? It's like, well, how are you feeling? And then getting into whatever that is, that helps us get a little more into what's
real and what's true. I'm feeling excited or I'm feeling nervous or I'm feeling annoyed or I'm feeling exhausted or grateful or stop asking me. I don't know if I'm feeling defensive, You know, whatever. But it's like, that's a little more real than I'm fine, or I'm great, or I'm some judgment of how we are, you know? Yeah. 0II think that's just the first step of starting to kinda understand that in our landscape, we often say, At hoffman on 1 of the days fine as feelings inside not expressed.
So that in good, you know, and then I I love it when students catch themselves and like, I'm I'm call. You know? And it and it's it's funny because I'll I'll be listening to myself and someone ask me. And I'll say, I'm good, And then I'm like, wait a second.
You know? So, yeah. I love that as of a key step and even just a first step in in authenticity and and giving yourself the time to have that reflection You know what helped me on that when I learned that in a different way in the process, which I really appreciated. I started, and I'm not always mindful this, but when I am, I've started to just pay attention to my language so that I actually say things like, I feel as opposed to I am,
and it's subtle. But to me, it's like, the statement of I am is like, a declarative sort of a state of being. How are you? I am sad. I am happy. I am right. But for me, it helped to just say if someone says, you know, how are you? I'm feeling excited or sad or I'm feeling... You know, the... Though using the word feeling for me, drop me more into my heart and got me in
touch with. Oh, this is actually a temporary state of being, and feeling just because I'm feeling sad right now or I'm feeling excited right now or I'm feeling, you know, annoyed or grateful, whatever it's going to change But when I say I am, that sort of fixes it for me. I am I am angry. Right? It's like now. And so for me, It's just... Like I feel like there's way more spacious around. Oh, I feel excited right now or I feel happy and
a little scared and curious. And confused. Like, usually, for, if I'm really honest there's, like 5 different feelings happening all at once, and I'm... Which one's the dominant 1. I don't know. But the moment I start to even language it. They start to shift and change and move, and it just reminds me like, oh, yeah. On any given day, I can feel happy and sad and grateful and excited and scared and annoyed and all the things.
Right? Like... And that's actually how I wanna live is like, fully expressed and fully in that emotional state of being human, not just fine. I don't wanna be fine. I don't even know what fine is. Well, Mike, I appreciate your time and vulnerability so much. This was such a beautiful conversation. So thanks again for sharing all your your wisdom and just really showing up and being present with us. Oh, you're welcome, Liz. Well, thanks for inviting
me on. I'm... Super grateful for the conversation and just super grateful for the impact hoffman had on my life, and my family, my wife did the process too, and I just love the whole hoffman community, so it's an honor to get to talk to you. We love you. So thanks again. A Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza and Rossi. I'm the Ceo and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. And I'm Asking Rossi. Often teacher and founder of the Hop institute Foundation.
Our mission is to provide people greater access to the wisdom and power of love. In themselves in each other and in the world. To find out more, please go to hop institute dot org. I'm