K everybody. Vol K is the guest. Today and glad you're here because there's something different when we have conversations with teachers. Vol been a teacher for more than 30 years. It just goes deeper. I love the way he starts with his own reflections his own journey his own childhood, and then really moves into his love of the work. And I think perhaps what I love the most is vol growth mindset. He's always looking to learn.
Always looking to grow see if he can pick that up in this separate so thanks for listening. Glad you're here. Please enjoy. Welcome to Loves everyday radius. Podcast brought to you by the Hoffman Institute. My name is Drew Horn. And on this podcast, we catch up with graduates of the process.
And have a conversation with them about how their work in the process is informing their life outside of the process, how their spirit and how their love are living in the world around them, their everyday radius side Hey everybody, welcome to the Hoffman podcast Vol, Cro with us Vol, welcome. Hi, drew. It's great to be having this conversation vol. You've been with the Australian process. Since 19 91. Is that right? Yeah. Well, I did my process in 89 and went
through the training program with Bob Hoffman. He came over here for, I think the first 2 years to actually set up the institute. And so I I did the second the second process here in Australia. And you are the director there, the Ceo and a supervising facilitator And your process takes place in beautiful byron bay.
Would you share a little bit about you know, here in the Us, when it was at white sulphur springs, certainly the womb of, the valley there with the redwood woods, and now we're at the retreat site on San Antonio Road up on a hilltop top, And I have heard such beautiful things about your site and the surrounding area of byron bay. Where you described that a little bit. It's it's on the easter. The most easter point of Australia. So it sticks out in the Pacific Ocean.
It's a quite a unique place. It's called original Care c that which was the ban nation or the Era iraq people. They used to call it carbon bar and it basically means the place of gathering and healing. It's interesting because got the biggest volcano on the planet, which no. I has been basically reviewed for many, many millennials. However, it it is a place where we have probably 62 percent of all the species, varieties in New South Wales congregate in this particular
area. So we've got a beautiful venue that is on first little hill Rice or looks out over the Pacific Ocean over their Rock National park. For example, the the whales when they're migrate, we can actually see them from from the Veranda, which is a beautiful spot. Wow, we will make sure the put in our show notes, some photos and anything else you reference in this podcast, check out the show notes because that will be a great source of information.
Vol, will you just share a little bit about your story and how you came to be you in the world. Obviously had a mother had a father. So and they were were were business people. My my father basically actually took it over from my great grandfather. It was a business where we were we were selling cars, car dealership, some also machinery to to farms as well as container boats, and I was born, and I was supposed to be take over the family business?
What was a probably very big change in my life was when my father contracted cancer when I was just a young teenage boy and he passed away when I was 15. So I had 1 of those fathers that was very benign, and I also feel very privileged because I... Even though I had a German father because he had an accident, he didn't have to fight an war. So I have probably 1 of those the rare fathers in Germany that didn't have to kill anybody. So my father was actually very
hearted man. My mother was a little bit more a 1 of a probably carry more masculine in her family. And she was a wonderful business woman and and then a skewed woman. I sent us but describe this. Yeah, the German version of market. So she was a she was a strong woman. However, I guess, my father's passing away, basically had a big change for the whole family.
And all of a sudden, I guess, my father there's this old song, teach your children well And that particular song, it says teach your children well, their father's hell will slowly go by and feed them on your dreams, the 1 that pick of everyone you will then be known by. And what I realized what my father because of lack of probably interaction with make didn't feed me as dreams. What he did give me and for many years, I actually
resent it. I thought it was a form of neglect an abandonment until I did actually the half my process and I realized that what he actually did give me was freedom. And so that was the dream that he fed me. And I was lucky and privileged enough to be able to follow that rate. And you were born and raised in Germany and yet ended up in Australia? That's correct. Yes.
After I I went in number it started basically from 18 to to 26, and I was able to postpone conscription, which we still had in those days in Germany, a melody draft. You know. So... And and I realized I didn't really wanted to commit any of crime because it was crime not to go to your draft. But if the authorities weren't able to send you the the draft papers you didn't commit a crime. So I decided to go for 2 years abroad, and I
ended up first the tried old America. And and and I realized America was a little bit let's call it the the collective consciousness of America is highly competitive. And are realized, I couldn't really compete with that level of further of having to be the best and whatever it is that you not to. And so I came over to Australia. And a friend of mine, basically gave me some some places to to land and which was really quite easy. And I guess, Australia is the land of
She'll right. So there's not that much competitiveness in Australia. And it was in that sense Australia. I felt very embraced, and I also fell enough, so I met my wife here, and so, I guess the rest is history. And when did you take the process? I did it in January 19 89. And Bob Hoffman was actually my facilitator. But to say it didn't save my life, but it's safe my lifestyle because it really helped me to
understand why despite certain privilege I've had. I always felt a sense of I had a very strong inner critic that's probably the best way how I can say it. And no matter what I did. It was never a really quite ride and and it also that in a critic really served my my confidence. So the process has really helped me to understand where that actually originated from, and then also tools and corrective
experience was beyond it. And some 33 years ago, curious about moments that stand out for you and having taught it so much over the years, I wonder how much it gets confused with your own experience of teaching it to students.
Probably main things that stood out for me that was particularly when when we go into the compassion writing and talking to to the child or the mother, the child of the father when they were small to shift perspective to understand dis soc economic, context the historical contact and which they grew up in. And going into that line of inquiry really helped me to to understand my parents suffering, and what it really did. It helped me as I said before, I didn't have my father was quite distant.
But it helped me to really understand my father and who he was and why he was so distant. And that understanding really brought up a new level of of acceptance and forgiveness for who he was. And is that when you went on to pursue a masters, and decide you wanna do this work, what happened after you left your process? Well, look, I think was invite because I... In those states I actually worked as a as a body worker. So I have a also a German nat
degree as well. And in those states, we used to run these 3 and a half months live in programs, also byron and Bay at their time. And so what we were teaching people deep connective tissue Ash with various other modalities and meditations and so forth. So I had that as a background. But when I did the process, I knew that the process were, but I
didn't really quite understand why. So in in the nineties, I then went about and wanted to also find a way of not only knowing that the work is effective, but why it is effective. So I then went and studied family therapy, cell psychology, and existential art therapies. So there's some right degrees and psychotherapy that has helped me to develop properly a language to describe the process and also understand
why the process really works. I mean, that is such a good question because so many people testified to the power of the process. And yet describing how these different experiences put together, curated 1 atop the other over and over again throughout the week? Why it works? What did you come up with as an answer? So that there are different ways how to how to look into it. So I think the process is form of psycho spiritual work.
And if you if you look at the spiritual path, there basically 2 major spiritual passes. There's 1 it's called the yan path, which is the path of understanding. But 1 of the representations of that would be, for example, Zen buddhism somewhere where you really are trying to understand your eu structure and and witness it. Then there's is also what they call the B path, which is the path of devotion. So... In the spiritual traditions, there would be the su, for example, prayer, dancing.
And where you basically allow yourself to express the glory of of the divine. Now all, and I think it's where all spiritual teachers are an alignment with is that eventually, these 2 paths wait to meet. So if you only have follow the path of knowledge of Yan, it becomes kinda cool, it doesn't awaken the the the heart center. And sometimes with people who go more down the b he pass the past of devotion.
Based sometimes lack the understanding of their own particular patterns and ego structures and all they can do is then pray a little louder, to an order to come back into an experience of their divine nature. So I think where the process really works wonderfully is that it brings those 2 elements together, where you have the understanding through understanding our behavioral patterns, will help people are this detail if they have certain
problems in their life. You personal sensitivities or relationship breakdowns with children or with spouses or or sometimes also just a lack of confidence in the world. So we help people to understand what are the patterns that create those situations, and then bring in obviously, a more psycho dynamic element into it, well we then also trades it back from which parent would have
landed. So that is really the path of Of understanding of understanding with our ego structure and where it originated and then through the expressive work that we do in the process, it if you can call some of them expressive work as a form of cath prayer if you like. So where we then mega scan away from our eagle structure, which is represented between the emotional child and the intellect versus our spirit itself. So we allow people to come more and more into presence.
And, obviously, interrupted basically where our consciousness is strapped, in the past on the future by the interaction between the emotional trial and the Intellect. That's deep walker. I'd love the way in which you've understood that and will include your paper on it in the show notes. Given that you do and practice psychotherapy, and yet you also facilitate the process, what do you notice about the difference and why someone should do the process.
As opposed to engage in therapy, what distinctions do you make there? I don't believe that anything being the ultimate. I think in psychotherapy versus the hoffman process, it's a tricky 1. So I think when people come to us, we always. Screen that we're trying to find out what is it that's present in their life right now? And is this the right time to go into the process I think the process should only be be taken by people who want to do it.
There are plots of people who need it, but, because the process is very much helping people to be able to stand in the authority of their own knowing, and it's about personal responsibility taking was that needs to be there right from a very beginning that supervisor doctor Bill Cloud used to say like, people usually change. Not when they have a good idea of that they want to change, but because their are on fire.
So so we need to then, however, when that happens, direct people to the right kind of healing methodology. And Sometimes is good for them to do some more individual work, particularly as if they are inundated with some people trauma situations that they first of all need to feel resourced enough to actually go into into the process, which is a bit of a hero's journey, because it is not necessarily for the hearted, but for the people who are were willing to change, it really...
Speeds up the healing process dramatically. And I think 1 of the main reasons is that I'm widening out here a little bit. It's another probably explanation theory if you like it. I think the process also works on balancing out our institutional energies. And I think we can make the distinction of 3 major instincts that we all carry. So there's the self preservation instinct. There is the the 1 on 1 or sexual instinct, and then there's the social instinct.
So the self preservation instinct operates more in the domains of, let's say, finances, health. The the sexual is more around affiliation, feeling connected more about being attracted to somebody. It can doesn't necessarily have to be a a person can be also an object. Sometimes people experience or lot of sexual entities. In regards to cost, for example. In America, guns, some people.
So but it's about the attraction, the sexual energy around being attracted, get activated by something outside ourselves and also, wanting to merge and fuse with others. And the social instinct operates more in the domains of procurement affiliation, feeling belonging, and also making a contribution to the wider. I think that we all particularly when we are struggling some of these in instincts get out of balance. So there's 1 instance that we're over express
another that we are that we press. And usually, if we rep press it, because it's associated with some level of shame. What the process really does on an extinction level it... It... It's not necessarily spoken about per s, but it offers corrective experiences. For example, some of the journal work that we do in the process That's a collective experience around the self preservation instinct because we have to go in, we have to be self reflective. So it's a the energy goes more
internal. The the expensive work that we do. That's very much works on the 1 on 1 or the sexual instinct. And so we have a corrective experience where people can re embrace their alive ness, their L in that moment. And because it's also conducted in a group setting.
Even though it's more individual work done in a group setting, but it's still you have the group experience when we explore toxic shame and people then also have a corrective experience that where toxic shame believes can be shared to ben witnesses, and there's a healing better occurs. So people from all different mis alignments on their extinction energies will receive, a corrective experience. And I think that is also 1 of the reasons why the process
works. If you ask me what's the difference between individual psychotherapy and the work that we do in the process in the 1 on 1 session work and psychotherapy, you do not get the group work. You do not get that reflection from other people. And what the process merely does through the healing that people have an experience of feeling rein initiated into the family of humanity. Well, let's pause there, or that's really good rein into the family of humanity or Beautiful.
And how did we get cast out in the first place? Well, I could... Go hoffman, And I think that's probably 1 of his greatest conceptual contribution to to healing us like, a psycho hearing that bob hoffman made and that's obviously represented in the negative love syndrome. You know, Vol as you were because talking, I couldn't help but notice that those styles, those types are part of the subtype of the, That's not a coincidence I imagine. No. That's
not a coincidence. There's an old standing tradition relationship between Bob Hoffman and doctor Who. Basically brought the en grant more into the Psycho therapeutic community. And they were old friends actually of Nora who was the 1 who helped Bob. Bring the process and present the process and the group process in which we are running it. Now. I remember when I did my pre course work, you might remember all the different cluster having. And they were designed with the n exam
in might. So you could also use it as an any exam teacher you could use the pre course work as a diagnostic tool to understand which any time might be acting out or might be be identified with. Vol will we'll put a link, of course in there about the an graham. But why do you think it's so powerful. Of course, there's 9 types. And then, I guess a word or 2 about that kind of typing or the way in which we use tests to see ourselves. Why is their value there?
As a facilitator of the program, I think it's important for us to have a diagnostic tool because it can inform us how we want to interact with our clients and helping that. And so I... Much more prefer the because it's a much more dynamic model. It's more sophisticated. And it also doesn't as much as, for example, Dsm m 5.
If you have a client that's highly anxious, which could be described maybe as in in Dsm 5 as slightly sc or it, the porsche might be more the 6, for example, 5, 6 with people that come to us, and try to get help. If we understand that they are highly anxious and obviously have to process their fear through their thinking that we need to reassure them that we're not going to take over their mind, but that we're actually helping them to come more into the authority of their own knowing Right?
If you have, however, somebody who's got a more severe narcissistic wound, for example. That's where it's also really important to recognize that those kind of people are extremely sensitive to any form of criticism. And understanding that, then can help us to actually create the safety that's necessary for lam to relax and find their own insights and their own healing.
For example, if you have somebody it was maybe a little bit more borderline, that's where it's also good to recognize that the behavior can't be just practically att to. It needs to also be confronted so they can get better. So I think it's important for people who actually teach this work, but they also have some level of diagnosis how I need to then function for my client. For them to get the best result out of the program profile. I I love
that. That that important piece of understanding who is in front of us in their hero's journey. And wouldn't you say 1 of the the gifts of the process is that it doesn't people as you said that it really does see it as... This is fundamental to being human. Correct. Yeah. However, when we are identified with our our patents and a lot of people are very much identify with that and said.
And, I guess, what the process does, it helps people to will zoom out from their wound and the the pattern compensation to be able to then stop and have a different response to to when they're being triggered. Vol in my work is a teacher I've noticed recently a few more people describing climate anxiety, and 1 student recently. Referenced it as climate depression. And I know you're an avid environmental and care deeply about the world around you, Will you just reflect a little bit on...
Do you see that over there and I know Austria is in the midst of its own environmental. Struggles. How does the process address that? And what are your thoughts? That's a very big topic here. So I'm look I... I'm look... It's it's a really interesting question drew. I think on 1 level, anybody who doesn't feel an environmental anxiety right now is disconnected from their own knowing and
understanding and feelings. So we're going through 1 of the greatest extinction crisis on the planet since the the dinosaurs were wiped out is sexually much faster when the meteor hit the planet. And that is a 1 level that's that seems to be of scientific facts currently. A lot of people also see that, and particularly also, I think the younger generation they also suffered certain level of n because when I grew up in the seventies,
I was a teenager in the seventies. It was enormous amount of hope there was still... I mean, I still remember the year I was born. There were 3200000000.0 people on the planet. Now it's 8200000000.0. So that's just in 1 lifetime more than doubled. And, obviously, as humans we have an enormous amount of impact on on our planet. Even though there are some voices that try to deny it, there's too much evidence that speaks sick exited.
So on 1 level, the people who suffer from environmental anxiety on 1 level they are really the good people there. There's a perception in their consciousness where there is some level of realism in that. You know? So they are actually present it. And I think that's the work of the process because it very much helps us to re embrace, are grieving hard if you like it because we do a lot of grief work in the process.
We need to be able to express the sadness and the pain that actually lives in our heart that was probably produced first of form family of origin to some extent or another. However, once we re embrace our our hard, and I think that's the price we have to pay for expansion of consciousness. We feel things more. So we feel the
good as well as the bad. We feel also then more the sadness, of the loss of habitat and of our planet, we need to feel it 1 level because that probably will help us to recognize that everything is interconnected. And I think that is the the message of the process. It helps us helps everybody to realize that all search cells are equal. We need to find understanding and forgiveness and compassion for for ourselves. And also, we do that by understanding our parents. And there, let's call the psycho
or there their patterns, and their pain. Their they're suffering that they went went through. And so the process helps people so embrace suffering, it doesn't take away the suffering, but it helps us to suffer well. And in regards to the work that we also do here in Australia. It is also because we're conducting it also in and an environmentally, very beautiful place. So in the moments when we get out of our own mind and can be totally present and then see our natural world.
I think that's where wield spirituality lives in the recognition that we are not apart from nature, but we are nature, and we can however, have... If we become conscious, have more agency of how to direct it. So in a time where sometimes there's not a lot of hope, I do see our work as something that gives some hope and also helps people to develop some level of see to to move forward. And we get these wonderful new Ceos and entrepreneurs,
they come into our work. And there incredibly inspired, and they really try to make a difference. And I think the process gives them an underlying spiritual basis, how to actually live in accordance to the values, the intrinsic values of their heart,
the intrinsic values of their heart. Vol, you're not just helping people heal their childhood, you're really helping them show up to life, there's so much more at work as you describe it, And even though the process does start with the childhood of the student filling out the paperwork and we go back in time. Even if you had a good childhood or perceive that you had a happy childhood, the process is still for you. Right?
Yes. Look, alike Capo who once said, suffering is the great equal lies, rich or poor, we all suffer. So even if we had a good childhood, and I if I reflected back of my, I've I've had a privilege upbringing, I never went for food. I had always my pants. We went on unblock holidays. There was lovely food around and I was well educated So I had very little pain in my childhood apart from my father passing away, which was a big 1. But until then, I would say I had a blessed childhood.
Nevertheless, I still was impacted by the trauma than my parents went particularly through the third reich in Germany in the Nazi time. So they were all traumatized. I would even say who probably doesn't only apply to Germany probably till to most people in in Europe at that time that they're all suffered from Trauma. That was connective trauma
there. I certainly internalized my my mother's, very strong perfectionism her very strong black and white thinking that are always was rebelling against that my father's abandoning and neglect I had interpreted as that I wasn't lovable I wasn't good enough. I wasn't beaten. But wasn't abused as a child or anything like that. Nevertheless, I carried those inner the voices. And I think anybody grew up in a patriarch system will have the experience of being disconnected from their own essence.
And the process really helps us to find that reconnect connection. Beautiful Vol. You are doing well there. I imagine Covid has amplified people's need for help, and it... I checked out your website. It looks like your you're full up for at least to the end of the year almost. We are full to the end of the year and I think the 1 thing that Covid really did, it created to stop and people had to go into isolation. And if we are because Ours societies are so
so directed towards actions. We have to do something. And all our life is spent into doing this. And we miss being a human being. I saw that with a lot of people than all of a sudden couple.
They were able to keep their marriage or their relationship together because there was a lot time apart and so they would meet against or a couple of hours, but as people wear now put into into their homes, and have to spend more time or with their family and their spouses that the underlying mis actually came came to the forefront. And unless people have some tools how to process things They actually very struggled with it.
So we've had a lot of people coming to us, meeting that kind of support. And you still love teaching it after all these years I imagine? Yes yes. I do. I think we as teachers off this work are incredibly privileged. To be able to turn people on or to provide a context where people can retrieve and find their innate ability and you're getting paid for it. There's not bad. No better what. Work for it. If and on planet really. Do you speak about the process?
In talks and what's it like to reflect on it here and you're upbringing and the Claudio Nana on h and Bob Hoffman, what's it been like to sit down and chat about the retreat sites in Australia and your recollection of Bob, claudio and the process. It's delightful. I really love talking about our work, and the insights that I glean from having worked with it for over 30 years now.
And I'm still as passionate about it probably to some extent either more so then when I was in my thirties, when I took over the institute. I guess, in those days, I didn't have as much confidence in our work because I just didn't have as much experience. Now I haven't taken thousands of people through this program. I really can see its efficacy. And I personally think that Bob hoffman was way the the fourth time. As you
probably know. He received the major steps of the program on a more intuitive level. Now science has caught up with it. You guys in America, you've had this wonderful research that was done by the university of California and I'm where it really shows that the process is in regards to anxiety and depression, Way more effective than cognitive behavioral therapy or drug therapy.
I think the process is just about to come into its own as a as a methodology to really start to shift consciousness on this planet. Beautiful Vol. We haven't met, but I look forward to maybe a Hoffman international gathering, listeners should know that all the center... From around the world come together? Is it every other year, but not so since Covid. Not so since Covid. So we're trying to put together another conference.
It's and we'll just have to see whether Will be able to do 1 next year, if not, next year, we definitely do 1 for the year after. So... And that will be lovely to see all the the different teachers facilitator from different countries and to exchange our notes and and and learn from 1 another because what I love about the prices, there's constant evolution with this work. And I think particularly the Americans and the English speakers
there are lots of people, different institute. We've made some finer contribution and finer distinctions, and now some some of the steps The steps are still the same, but the way it has being delivered has shifted enormously since the... Since the eighties other the nineties. What's really interesting fascinating for me is because of work with this pathway for over 3 decades now it's interesting for me to see also how consciousness has shifted.
I still remember back in the nineties, we had long discussions with participants, whether is such a thing as childhood conditioning. That's no longer a point of discussion. So we've accepted that. We've had long discussions with people. Whether there's such just a... Such a thing as the spirit self or might you might wanna call or refer to it, I'll just refer to it as the position of mindfulness, Now, this is no longer point of contention, and that gives me your hope. Just in 30 years time.
I actually do see there there has been quite a significant shift in in our collective consciousness. It is worth noting for for people to understand that although this was developed early by Bob, it has always had learning and growth as a part of its orientation as a part of its... Development. It's been tweaked and refined throughout its history to keep up with what we know to be true is you just gave a couple different examples. Yeah. That's correct. We do teach a learning mindset.
The sequencing of the process, I think that's what makes the difference between recognition, expressive work compassion work, and then also behavior modification through some of the tools that we we offer our clients that is all the same. But the way we actually help people to get into the experience and that makes the difference. Because a lot of people ask so identified either overwhelmed by their thinking. So where they're runs the show and is usually concerned about
disaster in the future. These are probably more the people who suffer more from anxiety, whereas there's also some people who are more identified with the emotional child and the feelings and where the emotional child starts to act out and where within then where people then also have depression and deep sadness. Understanding that we are not all thinking, we are not all feeling either there. Yeah. Aspects of our eagle structure.
Before identified we either in the past or we're are in the future, but what the process really does it helps people to come back into being ness and to be able to zoom out from that level of of reactivity of our thinking and feeling to come back into being met peace with sales, and then also at peace with others. V, it is the next day in Australia. You're heading out for your day. My day is winding down. What's on tap for you? Do you have a process going on?
We're actually running a process right now. So I'm going to meet up with our facilitator team for lunch. So that's What I have and and I have a couple sessions that I have to contact today. Vol. Thanks for your time. I am so grateful for this conversation. It's been really loving. Thank you for for listening and thank you for your good questions. Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza and Rossi. I'm the Ceo and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. And I'm Asking Rossi.
Often teacher and founder of the Hop institute Foundation. Our mission is to provide people greater access, to the wisdom and power of love. In themselves in each other and in the world. To find out more, please go to Hop Institute dot org.