Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Hoffman podcast, the author Neil Strauss. Is with us today. Neil written a bunch of books has been a ghost writer has been a New York Times author And I wasn't quite sure what I was gonna get because in his earlier life he had written a lot about dating and how to help men be better pickup artist he wrote a book called the game. But what I got when I sat down with him was a guy who was deeply curious, and humble and reflective.
He has got married 10 years ago, had a son and then got divorced, and that's when he did the process. It was a beautiful conversation as he and talked about how life works and how he works and who he is, and he's trying to figure it out, I hope you figured it out with us as we sit down in this episode today. Thanks for joining. Welcome to Loves everyday radius. Podcast brought to you about Hoffman Institute. My name is Drew Horn. And on this podcast, we catch up with graduates of the process.
And have a conversation with them about how their work in the process is informing their life outside of the prospect us, how their spirit and how their love are living in the world around them, their everyday radius us And everybody welcome to the Hoffman podcast, Neil Strauss. Is with us. Welcome, Neil. Hey. Good to be here. We are glad you're with
us. Neil, you are a 10 time New York Times best selling author because contributing editor, rolling Stone, former music critic, cultural reporter, columnist for the New York Times, You've won the ask Dean taylor award for excellence in music journalism, and in 2018, you were honored with the... Los Angeles, press clubs, journalist award for your rolling stone fiftieth anniversary recover story on Elon Musk, The architect of tomorrow, you have published written so many books and
such transparency and vulnerability in those books. Anyway, we're we're glad to have you. Thanks, Drew. You know, I'll say this year your name came up, and we were like, well, I don't know if maybe he won't even reply. Maybe he doesn't, you know, he's got a busy schedule and he's gotta... A public profile, and you came back right away I would love to when tomorrow next week. It was so great. I haven't done a podcast.
In so long, because, again, I'd rather... I just haven't done it in so long because I say note everything. But this to me is, you know, How poor Hoffman has been in my life and how important. I I... Hopefully, it isn't and I assume it's in those listening and we'll be for those who go so said yes immediately. When did you take the process what year? I wanted... I want to say it was just before the pandemic. Okay. So maybe 2019,
That makes sense. Literally, time stopped, and the pandemic started and We set I figured out how how it works since. Yeah. What led you to take the process? How'd you hear about it and then what led you to say, yeah. This is for me. It's interesting and this really really happens is I've heard such incredible things about the process, and I'd recommended it to... So many people.
I think on my own journey of healing and trying to resolve childhood trauma and operate in the world with greater emotional intelligence and and not make a mess my life and other peoples, you know not kind of came across the Hoffman process. I wish I remember who first mentioned it to me that I started recommending it to other people, So I get the letters that they send you all the time from the hop in process. Like, really a lot of them.
Of people thanking me for sending them there and talking about a different it made and I really realized that I really, really just need to go. There are other things I recommended probably a few other things I recommended all of which have experienced, but this was... In such high regard that I realized I... It's time for me to set that time aside and go. Knee preparation for this interview. I've listened and read a lot about you.
And have you talked publicly about your experience in the process before I don't think I have. I don't know. Only Ugg friends and colleagues not not a on a podcast or publicly at all. I have no shame. About doing any healing work at all. You know, if my... Your therapist might tell you,
hey, I see in public up. I'm like I don't know you, But I think it's a 1 should be proud to be going to therapy and working them working on themselves to be proud to to go to the hall process and say, well, my well being is important to me. So I feel like there's this odd stigma around this stuff when I really think it's a badge of honor and courage and excellence. Like, I respect someone who does this work. Yeah. Thanks for saying that.
I I couldn't agree more and people that come to the process already, and on some level come the terms of the... This is their humanity and not something that makes them abnormal in fact what's connects them to the part of being a human in the world Yeah. And I think when when a celebrity goes and wants to keep it a secret, and I know some people to fit in that category, I think, well... How you gonna be... Are you gonna be
shamed for it? To what degree gonna be shamed into what degree might you inspire other people, to say, hey, if that person did it? That's okay for me. I know for example, I went to get la on my eyes. I look to see where celebrities went because I know they're not gonna mess with their vision or where athletes went because their vision is their, show, entire income and livelihood. Mh. So I look for those recommendations, and I think that their many people is who've gone who
aren't public about it. And I wish more people... Yeah and realizes a little lot of subject me what we're talking about more people were very public about doing this work because and also, we're able to admit their imperfect. She available because we all are and and and and the holding with the saudi that you're perfect, I think is harmful to your own well being as well as the cultures. Thank you for again for putting that out there so pointed and when I have read a lot about you. It seems like.
Like that is your mantra. You are, una and full of this desire to grow, this desire to learn this desire to help other people grow and learn and and not afraid to, reflect on your mistakes or say that what happened was something I'd learned from even though it was painful in the moment. Do you see it that way? Yeah. I mean, I see I'm mean see a couple things. 1 is maybe as a writer an author, you really just have to tell your truth
and share the parts of yourself. I think we share the parts of ourselves that are the most vulnerable that we have the most fear around exposing it actually helps other people relate to that. Cara Rogers said that famous is quote, the personal is the universal. And when we share that. Other people are like, okay. I don't feel... It's like a sad song can make feel happier when you're sad because you're like, I'm not alone in my sadness.
And I think when we share these stories, other people relate. Those locked up parts of our set their themselves. You know, we see everybody really happy or on the outside, we see people happy or neutral are going through the thing, but we don't know what's going on behind closed doors and I think when we can bring that out into the open and heal it together, we get to move forward. So, yeah. So I think my books
were taking a problem my life. Finding the tools available available to fix it and then sharing it with other people. And I think I really, this journey that let me to hop and I only got there by admitting I was broken and messed up. Neil, I read somewhere that you were broken up with on your... Prom night. Was that? Is that true? Oh, yes. On my Prom night, my date left was the prom with someone else. So so that encapsulates
my my high school experience. And and I guess, non sec jumping into that, But what was the... The pain point that brought you to the work. I mean, the homework itself takes forever, and then the process is pretty intense. What brought you there? The Yeah. It's really processed. I think if I was to have to say the real point that it was, what would be you know, as a writer and a journalist. I really thought I was 1 who wrote about all the weird and crazy people and
I was completely normal. Then I was dating someone... I had cheated on her got caught the destroy the relationship and and was really just wrecked about it. And and I think that they're those moments when you see yourself in the mirror and and are repelled by what you see and is 1 of those moments, and that's with a friend who was saying, hey, if you love this person and you cheated up her and hurt somebody you love and hurt your chances for the future and
you wanted to get married to her. If sex that wasn't even that good anyway was was more important for you to you than her and yourself and your future then maybe your sex addict. And the short version is that I I check myself in the sex addiction rehab just your really just trying to figure out what was wrong with me that I would do that. And I remember a moment there where you do a timeline and you walk through your your sort of life history and and I
saw... There was a moment when the therapist said to me well, there's a reason why you've never been in a healthy relationship. I go, what's that? And and she goes, well, it's because your mom wants to be in relationship with you.
And it sounded so extreme and she goes as a word for that, it's called emotional inc. And was so extreme, but something my body just recognized the truth of it, and I felt this cold window blow over me and all of a sudden, all the moments of my life just snapped together, and I completely saw the pattern, and I think that was the moment when I'm like, when I sort of step back and realized oh, shit, Everything just fell part of
that moment. There's a great therapy called post induction therapy and the philosophy is our childhood is like a h not induction. And again, I think hoffman deals with a lot of a lot of this stuff in such a beautiful way. Child your child is a h not index. You're basically getting a cult. Right? And these 1 or 2 or 3 or harmony, however, many caregivers are in your household are running that cult. You have no other until maybe you see your first teachers, you have no other outside influences.
And this is the reality. If you're at a house where you're being hit up and to hitting what adults do and you deserve it if you're in a house where there's strict beliefs about x or y or
z, then that's your reality. Here you're basically getting brain washed into this cult for 17 or 18 years, and the job of adulthood that I didn't learn until that point as a late bloom was to sort of leave the cult because we can still be in the cult, even if we're not physically there we can still be in that mindset and sort of see the truth and see the reality and then and then do the work it takes to... Get into reality. So that was the moment
when I realized, oh, shit. This thing I thought was a reality or these things, people always say is that former resistance that it's completely normal and they're family or their home or their city there from or it's just what it's like, and and that was the moment when I saw, oh shit. Isn't normal It's just all to me because I experienced it for
17 or 18 years at home. And I think that's true of everybody that that we could have that moment And again, I think Often does a wonderful job of of helping you come to this conclusion and then releasing it that we can realize that, maybe that reality isn't a the actual reality. It's something we can step back from see the truth made and then from there to decide how we wanna live our lives. H not induction, I hadn't heard that before I love it. And the comparison to a cult that
it really does match up. Yeah. It's a great concept. Right? I think as a parent if you're... Telling a child the world is like this or sharing what it's like That just... That literally, they they don't have a facility question. They can't fight. They can't flee, and they have no other contacts even doubt they just trust and accept, which is so beautiful, but what are we trusting and accepting.
And I think 1 of the things that I noticed is that after that experience, you got back together, you got married you at a son and you wrote a book, which really the truth, which reflects so much of what you were learning about yourself and about relationships, such vulnerability there. I think there's different stages of healing again I get the hop in such a beautiful process because it moves you through them in this wonderful way. It's the only thing else they seen that moves a
group through it. This wonderful way, but the awareness is the hardest part of healing because the awareness really means like, well, in it's like, if you're aware, a cup is broken, well you still can't drink out of it if there's a hole in the bottom. Right? So now I'm just aware, and now I'm just annoyed with this cup because I still can't drink out of it. You have to... The awareness is like, the frustrating part of, I think the journey because before it's just...
You're doing it and and things just happened to you and it's... You have nothing to do with it, It's not your fault. You have no agency. And once you realize, once you have the awareness of what your patterns are where they come from while you do them. If awareness it is just lets you know what's what's going on and ed it can very frustrating, and and again, the hop does such a good job of bring you through the next pieces of of, releasing it. And repairing it.
Neil, if you take us to your process. Do you have a moment in time when... You feel like you were struggling and moved through something or a period you remember from your time? You know, I think what's interesting and unique about the process is everybody's being moved through it on a schedule of sorts. I can get stuck somewhere you just get stuck somewhere while everyone's moving
forward, and it's interesting. I sort of got stuck in this place where Felt really stuck and was going to a deep shame place. Of sudden have his a epiphany of this dichotomy my family where I was projecting my family relationship my brother, who I felt was always a golden child and I was the the Scape or the, you know, or the 1 who always blame for everything.
And I realized I was projecting on the group and then feeling like someone else was projecting my brother and someone else and there the a student and I'm the f student and you know, and and just sort of withdrawing for the whole experience, but then they went had the breakthrough that it wasn't about the group. It wasn't about the person. Was just about me and my own, past issues. It was like a really big break I members sort of crying and letting that go.
So the point being you have you can have a very individual journey through this and things come up because, you, our wounds are relational, and some if we do 1 on 1 therapy. Well, we're not really... Right we're this power relationship with the therapist. But... Because when you're doing it with this group and and these sort of peers or you're in the sort of social setting, other stuff comes up and rises to the surface and you get to deal with it there and see that it's not about that person.
We do say frequently that if it happens here in the process, it probably happens outside in life. And that's a great example that you are having a reaction to 1 of your classmates And through guidance and your own insight, you're able to connect it to your your brother. Yeah. It's sorry it's for. And I think there's an exercise and I love this exercise the vicious cycle. And and the crazy thing is that I think the other thing I remember this
is... And Like, I kinda put my worst case scenario vicious cycle and then it literally happened afterward. And I was so interesting that I was like, oh, that's funny. Anyway, I wasn't all in my that. Nation. Some of some of these things. It was very interesting. Like, I had to sort of fear that I explored and the fear kinda came true, but wait Neil. So so part of the the vicious cycle is you write down some of the things that you would go into thinking doing feeling.
And the way in which these patterns build 1 atop the other, and usually you reflect on something that's happened in the past But you're saying that your vicious cycle was a prediction of the future on some of. Yeah. In Fact, I as I talked about it now, I realized it's very similar to the dynamic I just said. Yes. I little I said as a group of. Division cycle in the past was have this small group I hang out with and I really feel like I don't fit
it and I don't belong. And that's the vicious cycle as the thought pattern and I don't fit and out belong. And then I'll say, ironically enough. Like, I was ejected from that small group, which was so so odd. Is this in your real life? Yes. Is in real life. I always kinda think about it. There was 1 person there who had some beef with me and sort of made up... It was odd thing, and I was
think about... Oh... And it may question. I mean, I ask this and see, there it may be quite... I thought it was so interesting. I'm trying to get rid of this thought pattern that I don't fit it, but maybe sometimes, it's right. I didn't fit in, but it doesn't mean Have to act out of that behavior and who knows? The vicious cycle could have been my feeling of not fitting in, for, you know, brought about certain behaviors that fit and it sort became a self fulfilling
prophecy. It's hard to un unmute these things. But I always thought it was funny that my vicious cycle, and then we go to your... The course case scenario was sort of being ejected or kicked out. I'm like, oh, that happened. So I don't know why I always think about that. Yeah. And connecting it to your childhood where, you know, that sense of un unwillingness, or shame of not fitting in, like, I don't belong. Exactly. That's... That's that's exactly it.
I think that's... I think it's a great point but it's true it's very interesting how it fits in a feeling less than my brother feeling less than in that situation, feeling less than in the group. And then and then the question comes from, how much of that less than feeling contributes to the outcome or or not? Right. Well, our outside will eventually... Match our insides. So if we're feeling it and not managing it or working with it, then eventually, we're gonna act in ways that cause us not to
fit in. Exactly. It's something that's true. Sometimes, they're groups that we don't fit into, and that's okay. We're still worthy wonderful people. I think life. Think human relationships are so complex. You know it's very easy. I know a lot of people who are very, very healthy people, but as soon as they get in a relation. But especially love relationship. All of a sudden, all that health goes out the window. So it's very easy.
We're just alone to have no issues. So many issues are relational and relationship you know, people dragging all kinds of baggage behind that meeting meeting somewhere. And and I think having these great tools that that help you there's so many complexes that come around through just people relating. Neil, I think that's 1 part where you're really a leader as a man. Helping men learn about talk about discover, grow from and lean into
relationships. Do you feel like that's... I know that some of the work you're doing now is helping men show up in different ways and partnerships. I think if there's like a message to to, like, share that it I feels, like it's really important to me is that so much of what we... Put on our partner, think about our partner is just
not true. Kin, and I find that somebody people who project childhood issues onto their partner and them and then try to change them to make them into the ideal caregiver they ever had, and and they get in this power struggle and thousand issues on our relationships. I could go into. But I think that health understanding your childhood and their childhood and being conscious that most of what your problems are with them have nothing do with
them. And find a ways to hopefully communicate that our involved, control, coercion, judgment, blame, punishment reward, ultimatum, criticism can really create a healthy relationship. I definitely worked with a lot of people where just changing they talk to themselves about the relationship and the way they talk to their partner about it, creates a giant shift. And only 1 person needs to do it. Neil, I'm curious about writing because you just have a way with words
and people love your words. You've really been so successful at it in in many different genres. And now you have a podcast, you've done more recently, but can you share a little bit about your writing process? What's it like for you to write? And and how do you connect? Are you dialed in to your spirit as you do it, What's your writing journey about? Almost everybody know wants to write a book, and then they judge themselves
going back to that move. Not being in left writer, and you really don't need to be a good writer to write a book. You really need to, like, just be a good storyteller organizer of of information. And so that process really comes under different phases to it and it starts with, What idea am I so consumed by that if I don't share it. I don't feel like my life was incomplete? Well, what idea am I so consumed by? That if I don't share it, I'll feel
totally incomplete. Yeah. And versus what I what I have to do versus what I can do because we can do a lot of things. That's what do we feel like we have to do. So it starts there. And then there's a playful exploration of what's the best way to tell it. Install work on really finding on introduction or way into it. It's very, very interesting, and it might end up being the chapter, And then then it's... Do what I call the ba draft. The
first draft is I just... Keep writing and just vomit it out everything I have to say onto the screen and with no judgment of good, bad organized. And then what I'm done. I know that's somewhere in this big pile of vomit is something I can organize into a readable a readable book I end the Vomit Metaphor. It's And so the second draft, it's like a sculpture. Now I have... I know that you have the block of stone, and I don't read more stone. I know it's all in there, and I just have
to shape it. So that it's interesting to other people. And that takes a lot of time. But but the process really is the idea that consumes you to vomiting it out so out of your head in the paper to then, you know, shaping and molding it into the best book you can be with no fear to And then the last phase really, is when I put on maybe the analytical cooler or critical thinking. And I just pour through everything and think about did I explain this right as our counter argument to
it. Sometimes we worry about people involved. I won't worry about the people till the very end and then think should I change their name or they're identifying details. They're not identifiable. You know, how it's gonna land my you know, Owning everything myself and not growing on someone else, you know, and and and all those little things. Like, all that... All the thinking that people worry about later, like, what someone gonna think. Well no one's gonna read
your book until, like, it comes out. So you can just save that to the end of the meantime, if you pour your truth out, you can later, take whatever precautionary our steps you need to make before sharing it, but you... I feel like if you just start with pouring the truth out, it's better than just worrying about what other people think. And if you're worrying about what other people think too soon in the creative... Process sounds like it it just shut it down. Yeah.
To limitations. We don't wanna limit... When we're when we're in create a flow, we don't wanna limit ourselves. And I think anything in life. Right? That fear based thinking is not gonna allow you to creatively self express. Neil, I've heard you talking in other interviews about somatic. Experiencing in the power of moving your body? Do you move your body when you write? Do you get up walk around? Do you crank tunes? What what's happening in that experience?
Guess my main things is when I'm writing, my only have 1 rule 1 rule which is like, I just can't be interrupted when I'm not just writing, but in the writing process. So if I set aside a data to write, I if I'm just going walking around the house or go to the refrigerator or something else, I just don't wanna be interrupted by the the phone, the phone has to go away. So the practical steps are. I put my... Something called the kitchen safe. I'll lock my phone up and put it
in there. There's a program called Freedom. They can download on a computer that turns off the Internet. And then anyone is around knows that there's just, you know, until maybe a certain hour that just not to talk, say hi, but not to ask any questions or put anything else in my mind, even when we're not writing, we're not creating, we're still receptive ideas, we're working through ideas, We're working through problem and sometimes the best thing we
can do. Then we're stuck is to step away and like, you were saying move, if I go surfing and if I'm stuck and I go surfing. And I lack the question or I loosely hold the question, the answer will just come to me. Sometimes, you know, I think it's you even talk about it hoffman. It's not... You know, we've over value the intellect, and we have these other parts of ourselves that we don't often commune with? And do you feel like you get answers on...
How to write how to tackle it from other aspects, than you're into? For sure. For sure. I definitely think that's all different... Piece of the can speak up at different points and and and give you the answer. It might come from any 1 of them or that magical combination when they all unifying into something transcend piece are you in the process of writing something now? I'm in that first process I talked about where I'm playing with the ideas and seeing which idea is consuming me am
not? I'm... I'm... I have these different ideas and I'm waiting to see which 1 is consuming. It's such a internal journey. Paying attention to which idea is consuming you. The inward leads to that outward. I'm I'm just really struck about how you're personal growth, your trusting of your intuition, your trusting of your internal process is what makes you So creative and powerful as a writer. Oh, yeah. Thanks. Thanks. I think I think it's I think it's all internal. Like, when I'm
writing a book. The audience really only is me as a reader. You know, What what excites me? You know, I'm really looking inside to say, well, hey what really, really excites me? What makes my eyes glaze over? There Be some... There were ideas in the book were talking about the truth that I thought were really important to express really important. But when I read them, they just felt dull, They felt like they dragged. They didn't excite
me, and I just removed them. We And in the end, we kinda have to listen. You know, our Intellect might say, well, you need to write this book you need to share these ideas and needs to be about this. But then we have to let that go and listen to, like, what you said The the the inner inter inner guide voices. We feel out about people too. We have some... We vibe from someone, but our Says they're great. They're perfect. They're great
on paper. Look at them. This is exactly what we're looking for, but that voice nose and whether, you know, whether it's your, you know, inkling of your higher self, or you're tuning into, you know, a guide. We we have whatever way you wanna name it. It's just really, really listening. And maybe I don't have to analyze what that specific voice is, Neil, so what is 1 thing that quicken your pulse and what's 1 thing that makes sure eyes glaze Over. I'll give you... I
was I was a dinner reason. And there were someone the dinner who was a the spy. And they were telling their stories that were of how they were trained and how they did it and the whole table just stop, and everyone was just hung up on it, listening for, like, an hour. And I was, like, that story and and I connected with that person and introduced them to book agent and and hopefully they can get to tell their story. It was really, really wild.
So I'm just noticing that when does time stop and you're just really, really in that moment. And you're not thinking about anything else. And as another example, you know, I might play with a book idea I wanna Right. And Might explain it to people and you get that. Oh, that's something that's interesting. That seems really, yeah. You should do that. That seems super interesting. You're like, okay. No. No. I'm not. It's not
taking hold. So you're sort of looking for all these cues to see what's really, really exciting and sometimes, I mean, as we know in life what we want is different than what we need, and and there's this disparity. I think it's true also like, what we want to share might be different than what we need to share.
Literally, if I think of anyone Else at hoffman with and hearing their stories, they'd all make incredible books, incredible films, but who has the... A, the courage to authentically tell their story, which which is very difficult for some because they worry about judgment? What are my parents gonna think? What is my friend's is gonna think Am I gonna... Why coworker is gonna be upset is what people booking it and think me differently. So the first thing is that courage to
share your truth. The second 1 is the self doubt to know that your truth may not be the whole truth. And the way you saw it may not be how it happened. You know, and that person who did those horrible things to you may have actually had good intentions that you mis. There there may again, sometimes they're literally a horrible person. Other times, maybe there's something you're not seeing in which
which we did that. So really not be able to share our truth, but then really being able to loosely hold our truth and recognize their other truth out there. And then I think thirdly, knowing which part of this is interesting to other people and which isn't and and figuring out that way. So I think that's maybe the way everyone has the great sort to tell, but who can tell it un and the courage to tell it mother and convey it in a way that's interesting to others.
I'm just remembering the Phil Collins letter on your wall about his frustration about a review. You wrote of his music. Talk about not Karen what people think of how you you you wrote it anyway. The letter was after the review, but it's interesting. I just wrote a you in the York Archives it's like a phil Collins concert. Some music critic. For a while, and he wrote this very, very angry letter that ended with the words well old you.
And I think it speaks to. I was shocked that somebody again who's for that successful playing madison Square garden. And again, I wasn't mean or savage or anything in the review that was that sensitive about it. And it's funny. You talking about that speaks to 1 of the book ideas I have is a book called the power of low self esteem, which is really about the idea that we... It goes back to what I saying at the beginning of this conversation that low self esteem is something we all have.
Like sadness. Right? And then to get rid of it entirely is to not do justice to a part of ourselves and we can get into a healthy relationship with that. And recognize that these some of the greatest people who've changed the entire world or the culture still had self doubt and we sometimes hold ourselves up to these standards that are just not human. Pretending we don't have it or trying to
make it go away. I say well the something wrong with me because I feel insecure sometimes, like No, man, there's there's nothing wrong with you. Like, we all feel insecure sometimes, but like, you're actually great for acknowledging and then sometimes feeling like... What brings people to hoffman where they have these incredible experiences that that change their lives their relationships is they feel like something is wrong not enough, and they need that a little bit of a low self esteem to
recognize that shit something could be better. So I think this can drive us to create share, transform. We we... Yeah. I love it. We we judge so much of our internal experience and without understanding its value and that's 1 you could... Automatically try and dismiss or make go away or make wrong about ourselves when we when we feel little bad about ourselves. And often
we hold others today. To inhuman standards of a perfection that that are unreasonable also, and we can see how we per that as well. Neil, is that question worthy of what boards you... Like, if you go to dinner party and people are talking about something, It what... Are you like? Oh I'll get me out of. It's it's just in question. That not what I expected about it. But I I think the hardest thing is a lack of self awareness. There's some people who talk with no self
awareness. I think that... That's the thing. I mean, I can literally listen to people talk about it anything because I'm so curious and I find people interesting, But I think someone who is really clinging hard to an artificial image of themselves, and then is trying to recruit everybody to also agree with it is very costly to be around. And because you you mentioned it, you've written
books with other... People and about other people and That curiosity just comes out your ability to sort of take on their view of the world, How have you done that? Or are you... Are you a great question oscar her? Yeah. I think it comes from Genuine Curiosity and
really, really caring. You don't have to... Learn to ask good questions if you're really curious and you really care if I look back even over my interviews over time of decades of interviews, I usually was asking trying to work out ideas in my own mind or things I was curious about through those interviews sometimes. So I think I think it really comes from, like, letting go of narratives that were talking about, how am my doing in my I doing
case this person gonna like me. I saying the right thing and just throwing that out and really being present, for and curious about the other person's reality? Now, how do you know the process is still alive inside you has anything happened recently where you felt the work you did some 3 years ago. It's something really beautiful and something really... Challenging.
The beautiful part is this, I do think it's important and people go to hoffman, always ask me, you know, how do you locking in, I think it's important to stay in the practices of check, recycling and gratitude. You, at the very least to the longer you can keep those practices
going to better. So I came home and I do a gratitude practice with my son every night and we talk about the, I guess I won't go into the details of how it's done, but but, yeah, we do that gratitude process every night, and I think it's been a beautiful thing that I could pass on and share with him and do myself, and and that's a part worth. Really alive in me and my family and
passed on to the next generation. Then the challenging challenging thing is when I did my vicious cycle, exercise and my vicious cycle was well as a group of... I'm a very... I was never a very athletic of kids We were Going back from my high school. I was always picked last for sports teams, and I was not... Athletic. There was me and this really thin. I'd still remember. I would not
gonna sure name. But came I'm down to the 2 of us, and I it was either... I it was nothing gonna be me or her and I was 50 50, and I was just... Remember that moment of terror, and I was just not an athletic kid. And so I have a a group of people who I just love working out within in the morning, but they're all very very athletic and, you know, alpha males. And and my precious cycle was I feel like
I don't belong in that group. When I go my cycle exercise and of me being kinda kicked out of the group in my mind is where it gets to and literally, 1 person the group had a conflict with me in their minds and I got kicked out of the group. And so I was thinking oh my god. My worst case scenario in my vicious cycle thing literally came true. The emotions were 1 was it was kinda reassuring because I'm like
I'm not crazy. But then the other part was well, to what degree did my thinking about it the vicious cycle bring that outcome to play. You know, in other words if I felt like I fit in and not I belonged. It didn't have that thinking pattern, Maybe that outcome would not have happened. So I thought it was a interesting reflection on that exercise. It was really odd.
He's really odd. I'm still sort of trying to process to process it to wash degree was like, oh, I'm just picking on something that was in the air, and to what degree did I create it and the answer probably that they're both true. So you're looking for a new workout group? I am. So if anyone's listening at a Malibu, reached out especially if that other person was picked Glass in sports class wants to join me. Yeah about in school. High school Pe,
is such a source of trauma. I don't know if it's true for everyone listening or it's maybe not true for everyone. I'm seeing my son go through different things and high school gym class it really like, the crazy idea of that we're gonna have kids pick from the weakest strongest to the weakest person. It's like such a bad setup for for, you know, comparison and and and judge yourself judgment it is. It's it's horrendous. I'm imagining that 2 of you right next to each other horrified
and and almost... Frozen in time in that image. Yeah. And and I think that's the interesting thing is when we have empathy for others when we realized I'm going back to a high school union realize that every single person there. Even the most popular person in the class had social trauma or felt like they were the out cast or felt like they were picked on or felt like they didn't fit
in. It's really been a shocking, experience to go realize that on some level that was really the experience of everyone, and maybe that goes back to the power of low self esteem book idea that that I think there's a lot of reassurance and knowing that we're all struggling with different perm mutations of the same issues. And even somewhat hardly arrogant is probably over compensating for really low self worth. It's the flip side of the same coin. Yeah. I look forward to...
Reading that book in a few years. Neil. We'll see how much it possesses me. And we'll see if I leading in when I listen to the podcast or or not. Neil and his desire to be possessed by ideas that move him. I love it. I started off with that shocking replay of the high school prom, But what's it been like to reflect on... Your story, your life, your hoffman experience. Yeah. It's interesting if we talk about... The things we discussed, which is, you know, rejection at the prom.
Rejection at home with my brother rejection, the hoffman experience with the... What's feeling the other person was more liked or, you know, doing it better or whatever it is, and then with that group. But you know, we... It's funny how we're just such social creatures, and and and this idea of fitting into the group you know, can really drive us full also 1 express our individuality. So it's very interesting. I I mean, there's so much
about Hoffman. It's a part of the process that's that's about forgiveness there's a bunch of things I love about the process. And and and I just think everything just comes in the right order that not until we sort of heal and lease ourselves can we get to that forgiveness miss part. I think the way it was done was so powerful and so beautifully lease it's just really powerful. And I think
I've done a lot of work. And and that 1 piece has not been in the work I've done, and and it's really wonderful. And so 1 of the reasons I did the process is I've sort of come to learn from just working myself and helping others work in them themselves at the secret to healing. Is this combination of factors. 1 is deep intensive experiences like the hop process where you really, really work through stuff then 2 is some kind of maintenance where you're checking in
my hoffman group. And this was 3 years ago, we still communicate almost daily. We did... You know, we organized reunion. We are as are the class with the teachers of the fact that we're still in touch after 3 years really helps remind you and keep you centered and people talk about their challenges in life. The third part is having tools to use when you're... When you inevitably backs slide, which, again, the hoffman provides those tools.
And, yeah, I think that's it those 3 pieces, which is even intensive workshops, tools use when you backs slide and some sort of regular form of support. That's where talk therapy can come in handy. I think those 3 things can help you create a change and maintain a change. So I feel like that's really been important for Hoffman and having this experience and Learning so much releasing and letting go of so much, feeling so amazing afterward and then having the tools in the group
to stay connected with. We're really important to me, Yeah. I'll certainly I'll never forget the week or 2 after Hoffman and how I felt them that was really 1 of the most incredible feelings of feeling clean, you know, spiritually, emotionally intellectually and in every way possible. Neil. So grateful for this conversation. Thank you. Yeah.
Of course. Yeah. I remember... I literally remember after Hoffman saying grace or, you know, or gratitude before every meal and really feeling it on a deep level before it's sort of a rote thing I sometimes do. But I really felt that. I really, it's really incredible what happens and and and how it works, and
Yeah. I'd be curious for task you since you talk to so many people do, what device would you give the other people on maintaining that incredible post hoffman, maybe a word for post hoc and glow. You know, I was wondering if you might. Turned the tables. I was listening just right before this to the Lewis House podcast where. He he was interviewing you, but midway through. You had him talking about his breakup and what's happening and he's all vulnerable and saying he doesn't know if he's gonna
post it. I thought it was such a You're such a good question ask her. I mean, I'd much rather learn even this. I'm like, so uncomfortable. I'd really rather... I really more in in learning that, like, hearing myself. Talk. But but I do. But I am curious to I really. I hear you. And, you know, 1 of the things about often I like is the b do have, you know, that if we can focus first on our essence and on who we are.
And you referenced that. I I thought getting the the most beautiful woman would would help me be happier, and it turns out if you're a I forget what you said if you're a confused person or a messed up person, the relationship won't help you. You've gotta figure yourself out first. So helping people understand that it's not what they have. It's not what they do.
It's who they are first and feeding their internal experience of themselves, fortify their their deeper connection to their spirit as a first step. And then acting from that place as if you are that person being that person, and then you will have the life you want So the b first, the do second to have third. For me is it's just a nice way to orient myself to the world. And then how do you be? In other words, like, like, they say you're stressed out on someone's like hey man Just relax. You're
like, no. You're just making... That's not gonna work. I know I need to relax. Not helping me and more stressed out. Now. Like in other words, how do you add how does 1 be in the in the way in the way of being that serves them? Yeah. That's a great question. And I think what I support students doing and grads doing and and show up in my own life as best I can is to come back to my body. My body feels... I just feel like... Yeah. And maybe we could do more in the process to help
people connect with their body. Certainly the somatic work in the research around what's happening in your body. But if I can come to a calmer place through breath, through closing my eyes through time alone, through writing through being in nature through stepping away from a conversation that's going south or if I get noticing, just the practice of noticing my body, my heartbeat, what's happening in different areas of my body constriction or expansion.
For me, that's just the doorway to all things that are better, for me and if I ignore it, all things that are that are worse for me. That's really good. That's really good. I think I like that. I like that. I think that, I mean, 2 thoughts 1... When is Yeah. I see what you're saying being, it's really just focused on, like, I am literally... It's not like a way to be or thing to to do. It's just really like, I'm just going back
to just... Feeling what's happening inside and that's re center myself, but I'm just this person who's breathing hard as beating, there's some movements and energy in different parts of my body right now and it can sort of re resent and reg ground to you and and in in this simple truth. I love that. I love
I love that. And secondly, it's funny. I I give people that exact same advice, which is if they're in a situation where they feel they're starting to get energized, let's say, and they're gonna make get reactive or go bad or they start to feel go into that place. We all know that place, and we all have different signals that take us there. Right? We might feel vibrating. We might start to know our voice racing it might start to feel
everything narrowing into a tunnel. My start to feel the need to defend ourselves or to get upset or feeling in our heart wet it went... And I totally people the same advice which is like, whatever it is making an excuse say, hey, if someone's able to hear, hey. I... I'm just fine to start
myself getting react. I'm just gonna step up for a second to be right back or just saying, be right back, I have to go deal with something or go to the restroom restaurant for whatever, and then doing exactly what you said just grounding themselves in that, the exactly what you said. Truth of the situation. And then coming back in after they've reset is such a great tool. I I love that. Yeah. And it's not as if. The what is important to me goes away.
I could... I just can say it or speak to it or be with it, in a way where it can be met with success, whereas before. However, I was gonna express it because I wasn't coming from a more grounded place was almost doom it to failure. Yeah. Exactly. It's like you can respond instead
of reacting. I think people often people often misunderstand this important idea and being in your most healthy, non reactive, connected a harmonious place doesn't really mean that you're accepting that you're just sucking up everything I someone gives you that isn't... That doesn't sit right with you or you're just sucking in and holding it and and staying, about it. You're actually able to hold it with patience. And then at the right opportunity to say, hey. I
just wanna... If you're open to conversation now. And you get that agreement, saying hey I just want you know, you mentioned this earlier and for some reason, it just didn't ring right in my head. I wanna discuss it with you. Right? We still get to... We're not just sucking stuff and people mistake, I think sometimes this advice about being economist and centered and still and non reactive for for, like, not expressing yourself and that can end up leading to resentment and
acting in instead of acting out. So so it's a nice I love that you're that they brought that up. And so the deeper we get in this work, you know, the more fine line, the more the more fine some of these points are, but they make such a big difference Yeah. I'm just smiling here because the fact that you've done the process and and the work you've written about in your life.
And here you are talking about it as it relates to Hoffman just makes me happy that you're connected to that experience, your week at white sulphur springs. 1 of the things that kept me from going to Hoffman. Originally it... Why Took so much time I felt for me is because in large... Most large group trainings have... Let's just say, a marketing element baked
into them. And and... I won't mention the names of them, but a lot of them, I'm gonna say per revert, the messages and plant sort of seeds that later are used to manipulate people into... To the next part of the program and enrolling others, I was worried about that going to Hoffman, and and to find that that they... First of all, the program had a confidence that the maybe we don't need
to do that. None of that was part of it that when it comes to discussing other things that are available, it's and its own compartment, it wasn't I I... Some of that stuff, I think, maybe poison or keeps people or at least it kept me from going and seeing the high integrity. In my experience at which I experienced hoffman man and seeing that the confident, you know, discussion and options of other programs and things you can do without a without there being any kind of that and people
still recommended it still does well. And I think what Kept from going was thinking that it was in the category it those other their programs when it really is not. I appreciate that because it is what we say. We we tell people don't tell people to go to the process. They will... Be able to see in you the changes, and that will be enough you don't need to sell it, in fact, we're weight listed for her a few months now, and your embodied presence, post process
will be enough. And when they witness that, they'll say, I want what he's having. That that's it. That's it It's having that confidence. It's having that confidence. I think some of those other programs can hurt the work and hurt the development could hurt the person and can hurt. Someone's, you know, openness to going through, something again, there's a brain thing that happens if those other ones again, in the while, let it go, but I love like you said. It's, like, if this is great. And
and, yeah, you're... So someone was like, hey. What what happened what shifted for you, you discussed it. In fact, I recently, I mean here's another post top story, which is, like I was in a meeting, and I was up for consideration on a project. And if we started talking about Hoffman and we'd both been there, and I got selected for that project because we both, you know, knew we'd worked together well because we both done the work at Hoffman. No way. Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic.
Ronald story. Right? How did that come about? I think they had recently gone there, and they said, I just went to this thing like, what was it? And and the person said, what was. I'm like oh my god. It's incredible and we just... Onto them that and then, right away, we will know we'd know we'd be working together. It's like, wild thing too is the bonds you make with somebody to week. You know, some of some of them know you better than your closest friends because you're all
so vulnerable together. Do allow the groups stay together in the way, like, our, I guess, I know our group is, like, literally, you know, has been very active that's where unions and events and things. Some do, many do not all do, but but it's great to hear that yours is. So Connected even 3 years later. Yeah. Yeah. It's also great to hear. I mean, it's interesting too. I know some people do the program virtually sometimes. I mean, it feels like I
wonder how their... That experience compares to doing it, you know, doing it in person. Yeah. I think it... It... It can't be the same. Right? It's it's not the immersive experience that the process is. But people do love it, and we continue to do well with it the Hoffman essentials online, Zoom course over 2 days, Great. And also, I think if somebody can take that time aside or or feels not
ready to. You know, it's an issue. I think I think I always tell people doing it, like, their people are... I think there's nothing even even the detox from phone and media is is is already so healing. That that that I think it's really not a special part of the program. Neil. This is so good. Thank you for this conversation, brother. Yeah. Thank, man, And thanks for thanks for being open, and thanks for their fantastic question. And really
doing. So much resource and also just for for for including I'm proud to to be hit alumni of the process and proud to and really happy to be able to share the experience. Thank you, neil. Alright. Thanks, dear. Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza and Rossi. I'm the Ceo and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. And I'm Asking Grass. Often teacher and founder of the Hop institute foundation. Our mission is to provide people greater access
to the wisdom and power of love. In themselves in each other and in the world. To find out more, please go to hop institute dot org.