Brian Buckle, and eyes sit down face to face looking at 1 another nodding smiling. It hasn't been the case in the pandemic where I've been able to record with people in the same room looking at each other. But in this conversation, we do, such a unique experience as opposed to being long distance sense over the wires so to speak.
Please enjoy this conversation with Brian Buckle, in particular, his commitment to social justice, and then the way in which all of that gets integrated into his week at Hoffman. Welcome to Lu everyday radius. Podcast cast brought to you about Hoffman Institute. My name is Drew Horn. And on this podcast, we catch up with graduates of the process and have a conversation with them about how their work in the process.
Is informing their life outside of the process, how their spirit and how their love are living in the world around them. Their everyday radius. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Hoffman podcast. My name is Drew Horn, Brian Buck Gl is with us today. Welcome, Brian. Thank you, Joe. It's good to be with you on this beautiful day. Yeah. It's great to have
you rarely do. I do a podcast in person and yet K Brian, NIR in Boulder Colorado, speaking with 1 another, talking about the Hoffman process, but actually introduce yourself a little bit in terms of who you are. As Drew said on Brian Buckle. I was born in West rock a neighborhood of Boston. I currently am a element school special education teacher. I also direct a nonprofit the Southwest Native American foundation, funding higher education.
For students of the tribes of the Southwest, and I recently started an award for Ruby Bridges teacher, Barbara Henry teaching award as well. And a little bit quick hit on who Ruby Bur is. Ruby Bridges was 6 years old in New Orleans in 19 60. When New orleans was forced to des the schools, and she showed up to school for the first day of school and every other child was held home by their parents in a a refusal
to be part of integration. And my friend's mother, Barbara Henry, was the only teacher who showed up for work in met Barbara. At Ruby every single day, and they taught 01:01 and learned 01:01 together for that year in New Orleans, and it's an incredible. As Barbara says, the classroom was an oasis of love that year. Until you do an award every year. We just gave it out to a teacher in South San Francisco School district who started. Ruby Bridges walk to school day in California.
It's now a state day. Where all the kids will at least try to walk to school and Ruby bridges on. Great. Whatever we talk about in this, the show notes are gonna be full of good stuff because I have a feeling. We're gonna hit some really meaty stuff here. Brian, tell me a little bit about who you are like your story. So I think my story begins with I think being the third of 4 children is important. I got to watch, 2 older siblings, do things well and stumble.
I also was like the grandchild, the virus immigrants, who were still making their way in this new country and felt inside felt outside at times, but I did feel part of a a clan in my neighborhood. Of grandchildren of irish immigrants and the next generation in parents having hopes and dreams for more integration and being part of the American story. I would also say that my father always had dreamed of, like,
learning more and going to college more. So I benefited from my parents dedication to watching in my school journey which I loved. I loved learning. I loved being in the classroom. So much of that when I graduated college, the first thing I did was become a high school teacher in Brooklyn because I couldn't think of another way to pay tribute to pay gratitude to the fact that I even had a college diploma. I think along the way, I was fortunate to meet people who cared for me.
Like, who really like cared for me and did extra things for me in my neighborhood, on my hockey teams and my classrooms. So I always felt young that I was the recipient of care loving, giving, and that's a powerful thing to feel when you're young, because you don't really know what you can give back yet, but it's a question you ask yourself as you move forward. Into the world. Wow, that tribe, you belong to Boston, so infamous for its Irish community.
And the third of 4, I relate to that as the third of 4 as well. So, Brian, take us... Just a couple quick hits here. You're your childhood, what was that like for you? I would say my childhood was full of, like, friendships in the neighborhood, care at home. But at, you know, at a certain point, I started to realize emotions were difficult in my neighborhood. They were either and in my house.
They were either suppressed and people didn't talk about them or physically remove themselves from uncomfortable situations, or they were extremely intense. And maybe we do this thing at school, size of the problem? Does your reaction meet the size of the problem? Tiny, medium, you know, but it would feel like the emotions overwhelm the actual emotional
conversation or issue at times. So they were either suppressed, ignored, minimized or the opposite sort of exaggerated, reactive, very passionate, intense. Yes. And so you're a little kid watching that and you're like, neither of those seem to work, but you have no tools or language, but you wanna be different from that. So that's another question in your young body, you kinda linger in and I hold and carry with me. So you you survived that experience. You...
Then what happened. You you went to high school, you went to college. Yeah. And then, I was fortunate after 2 years of teach in High school New york City to be sent by the United States peace corps at Thailand. And I was sent to a north village in Ut and Tan where on the buddhism was quite prominent was a feature in everyday life of the village with the monks walking in the morning to, receive bounty from the villages who would place.
And offerings and their bowls to certain days of meditation where the villages would meditate for 24 hours, continuously. But I I started to connect with looking inside more and sitting with things quietly and sitting with the questions and sitting in comm with others, but quietly and feeling the power and strength from that, and that wasn't awakening. That prayer, or meditation could have an internal compass more than a spoken outreach for things to be different
around me. So you were raised Catholic the iconic Catholic Irish upbringing. And here you are in Thailand in a very different iteration of religion. What was that like the contrast of those 2 experiences. It was strong. You can be sent any country in, you know, many countries in the world. I think there's 88, the peace core goes to.
I was really grateful to be sent to a place so different with such a contrast from even the colors of the temples being celebratory and bright and radiant and welcoming and just the the quiet. And the reflection time with the elders and the place that people would go during the day, and it was part of the daily life. But I think the contrast primarily was that sitting still and quietly is also a revolutionary response and that was strong for me and something I had never ponder
until being there. And it didn't make sense. I I just have to ask it's... I don't even know this. Is the p score still in operation. Yeah. So it's in its sixteenth or so. Yeah. I think Jfk got it going by 61 62. Wow. Yeah. And still sending people to all these countries all across the world. Yeah. And it's really beautiful because you come back different, and you come back and you connect with other Peace corps volunteers. But 1 of the goals of the peace scores when you come back.
To share and talk about your experience. Is that's part of what they have? Yet. So we visit... Let's still visit schools at times on March first, peace 4 day. And try to talk about my experience, and I came back and ended up on the Navajo nation through a peace corps program as well. It was to continue some of that work with cultural sensitivity, states side, and that was a bridge on the Pis corps fellows program. And is that how you got interested in starting your nonprofit?
Yeah. So when... I was time to leave the navajo nation. There was such a feeling of sadness. Of leaving a community with such won cultural history, strength, but also need in resources. So we started the nonprofit to try to meet that need and, 20 years later It's it helps and many many students, to college, 2 graduate school, but also who then go back, and become leaders in their own right. It's excellent. Yeah. So, Brian, why education, why why folks focus there? In my own knife? No for the the
nonprofit. For the problem. I believe the feeling was when I was at the school in Loop, Arizona, in the southwest corner of the Navajo nation. My seniors, it was senior fall each year, let's talk about life after high school. Couple things would come up. Well, my ancestors died for this land. I don't wanna go to Phoenix or flags staff and leave my travel homeland. A second thing would come up, well there really isn't funds or money and my family to even make that choice.
But if I had some money, I might try it, some of the students would tell me. And, despite the levels of poverty, there is an automatic financial aid. It doesn't always meet what a child needs or what a student needs in terms of car rides, food, housing, can I get home in the middle of semester? You know, there's so many questions that aren't
met by financial aid off is. So I think it was a way to say thank you to the community for letting me be with them, and it was a way to keep this friendships that I had made vibrant through conversation and who else can we
seek to support going to higher education. And then a third 1 just, you know, Martin luther the king remains a personal hero you hear these stories, you see these faces of these students who may have gone on to pursue their education, but for financial challenges and difficulties. You start this nonprofit, which aims to meet that. Do you know how many you've contributed towards how many students?
Yes. So we recently did account. We believe, we're at about 500 students have gone on to higher education and graduate school. As a result, of the program, and then we hope to meet that in less time now. So we hope that took 20 years to do 500 students We opened the next 10 years, we will have helped a thousand students. I see. Yeah. I see. And then that's your way of staying connected to the Navajo nation. And then you pursue teaching... Where where did
you go? To teach. So after I left the navajo nomination, I went in town to flags staff high school. But was still neat because Flags staff High school had a dorm for students of native American background, whose parents and families wanted the students to come into town, to learn some of the other culture, the mainstream culture younger, prior to college to get comfortable in that world with supports.
And it was a good transition because I could feel both communities within me and in front of me each day. And then you also see those challenges. I didn't have to leave my home till I was 18. Yeah. And then here we're... Children who were 14 or young adults, leaving home with a lot of family hope behind them. Which can be beautiful, but also can be a little pressure. You. As well. You know? So just being sensitive to all of that, And so you married late in life and
you now have 3 kids. Mh. And then trying to bring in the hoffman process in here, for a guy who's connected and aware of things happening in the world around him. You know, just it's a different profile, what brought you to the process. What was that like in terms of stepping into the hoffman process. I was nervous. I like to think of myself as someone who looks within who reads poetry and writes poetry, who likes to take manhood a next step compared to my grandparents and my father.
So here I was... I felt I was walking into something that I did not know. Was fully about, but had those goals to push us as humans to connect deeper with our emotions and sensitivities, but also to sit with them and try to name their origins and their creative beginnings. So I was nervous, what if I can't explain everything. I feel what if I can't dig deep enough.
But I felt the first night just getting there a little earlier I felt that mood and others around me, and I think Drew you and I I've talked before about the unique thing about Hoffman is you get to do this, but not alone, not 1 on 1 at an appointment. Like, even in that first dinner just saying hello I'm from, and this is part of my life, I was like, oh, Everyone's here to listen to. This is awesome.
And then quickly, Saturday, I think I met my 7 other group mates and listening mates, but I felt b and supported and I felt everyone wanted to go in together and try what we were asked, and that felt courageous from the beginning. That kind of cam that exists when people are about to step into Certainly not for everyone. Right Brian, but for you, that sense of being b. I love that word. Yeah. And then I had watched the video on negative love patterns. And that was strong.
So Made sense. It made sense that. What am I carrying to me? And I had read Bruce Springs auto of biography who talked about harmful, nox qualities we inherit from our ancestors but we also have to, like, bury those qualities alongside the physical bodies of those people and it's not easy. Did he use the word Barry? He did? He we he had to feel he fell from his dad and some of the men in his life in his family tree? There were negative love patterns, nox traits he inherited. He was working
to put in the graveyard as well. So I have that. In my head as well. And there are a lot of languages coin and language can lead to movement and growth and power and hoffman was there with labeling things, and the spiritual guide became a prominent thing. And became a fun thing. Tell me a little bit about the spiritual guide. Yeah it's not often that people mentioned that it certainly it can be very powerful for people What did you learn and connect with around
your spirit guy? So it was a man who lived near the ocean. Who walked toward me. So when I was asked to call or sit with my spiritual guide, we would have these conversations near the ocean. And he presented as 1 fully living near the ocean, fully part of land in ocean. And for me, it represented kinda of being fully involved in the work of earth, but don't do that all the time. Remember there's this other thing, whether it's the ocean or our spiritual side or d after life, what it was.
But he was also very joyful. And when we had difficult questions about, you know, what when we were talking in those quiet moments of, what did you think your father meant by that? Or what did your mother's pain mean to? There was still a levi to it? That answering those questions and sitting them with them is supposed to be part of the human experience, not a hard thing to do. So the spiritual guide helped me we've rei imagining... Well, revisiting but also rei imagining my upbringing and what
I can do as a parent. And it was fun. I still laugh when I think of my spiritual guide because he had so much joy. But did not avoid difficult conversations with me. What a great combination. What's awesome. The courage to look at all the hard stuff. Mh. And yet, the humor to bring laughter and likeness to the hard stuff. Yeah. Which I don't think is easy, but became an inspiration as well. Maybe that's a way to lead into connection with people at these moments
and with myself. And if for for the uni, how would you describe what a spirit guide is? So during the week, I felt a spiritual guy who was someone there for me to lean into to observe because some of it was actually like, visual manifestations of what a guide does in that levi or in that presence. And then also reflect back to me in the moment of whether it's difficulty or being stuck in, like, relationship, or parenthood, but the spiritual guy felt like someone who cheer but also wasn't gonna
fake cheer Mh. For the sake of positivity was gonna cheer once you did a little work on yourself. But it felt I wanted to do the work. Some nice little accountability there along with the positive support. Yeah. You know, 1 of the ways we sort of frame it is that sometimes when we are in patterns when we are coming from a place of surviving, and the coping skills that we learned from our childhood when we're in that, it can feel like at times, the universe is cons against us.
But when we are connected to our essence, our life force, it can feel like the universe is supporting us. Yes. And when we connect to our spirit guy, it's a beautiful way to allow the universe Mh to love us and support us. And it sounds like you really let yourself love and be supported by your spirit guide. No. And it was awesome. And I felt a parallel poets, we feel sometimes poems arrive to us, and all we did was record them. And that we called on muse to connect with us
on this moment we're trying to capture. But We talk about, well, the book opened, I wrote 12 lines, and then I read what I wrote. But I was being led by a poetic guide. I was being led by a force that put the words in this order in this shape and it felt parallel 2, the spiritual guide in some ways. And again, the openness, Can I stay open to both those forces? You talk a lot about poetry, and I know for for a while
there... 1 of the things you brought to the community was 1 of 3 independent poetry bookstores in the Us, and you let that for how many years. My wife and I did that for a decade. 10 my. Mh. And then when Covid hit, everything collapsed, the... Certainly, the university traffic that you had relied on was now down to 0 because students were sheltering at home.
And so I guess I have a question, when you think about poetry, what's 1 of the ones that come to mind that relate to this work in the process? So I felt in some ways unique at the process, I was someone who arrived with both of my parents deceased. So when I talk about the process with people, the how, you know, how was especially people who have gone before me to the Hoffman process. And I'll say, you know, I have to be honest. It was nice to spend a week with my parents because I missed them.
Now, I also enjoyed revisiting their parenting in their own relationship and things of communication and supporting each other that I got to look more deeply at and add someone in a long term relationship and a father kinda revisit and say, what do I wanna do the same? What do I wanna do different? But it was nice to be with them in that capacity. There is a poem by Seam As he, a kite for Michael and Christopher.
And those are his 2 sons, and the poem talks about the dad, flying a kite just on a windy day, and the kite small, perhaps the size of the soul and the wind and he hands the string to his boys and 1 of the final lines of the poem is here, take hold of this string. The long tailed pull of grief is in this string. Take it boys. You were made for it. And I love that poem because the dad's trying to say to the children Grief is part of our human experience loss
as part of our human experience. But again, I keep going back. It seems like it's near the coast. There's the wind, the levi of the kite being tossed in the wind up and down side.
But then if Hoffman does have this look on our origins and the parents from which we spring, This parent, the dead handing the string in the pull and the tug of it there's gonna be lost and grief and pain and that's part of the child parent relationship and that poem always helps me remember our imperfections too and what's built into these deep deep committed relationships. Or long tail pull of grief. This picture in the kite. The long tail pull of grief, our humanity.
Brian, 1 of the things as you were talking, I'm thinking about, you know, we've had fundamentalist Christians go through the process there's obviously Jewish people that goes through the process. There's atheists that go through the process. Every religion has taken the process and political orientation, conservatives, liberals, independence. 1 of my very favorite things about the process is that it welcomes all. And it doesn't try and convert them. People get to still maintain what they believe
it feels like it is very integrative. It's a word I use. You can integrate what you learn at Often, with all of the things that you bring previously, it allows it to scale up a bit. Tell me you know, with poetry, with your work with the Native Americans, with your connection to the peace corps, you're upbringing as catholic, Do you believe that Hoffman helped you integrate with all of those?
What's your sense at that? Yeah. No. I think, Steve, my teacher was calling on me to look all of all those parts and see how they have woven into myself, but how I wanna un some of them. But I never felt judged for, like, my background or I never felt. I should raise 1 part of my background
above others. But I felt through the teaching, I was supported to reflect on all those pieces and celebrate commonality with the other people in my group but also ask myself to kinda like with looking at my parents during the week, which of these parts really serve me in my personal goals and which ones are d distracted. And if I think of my group of 8, I think you just said all of our religions all of our backgrounds. It couldn't have been more diverse even though we might have
had the same shoes on or something. You know? Yeah. Was whichever a moment during your week where you were like, I don't know. Maybe I'm mad of here, or you really struggled like it was hard. So we were going through an experience where we had a set boundaries in a role play with another participant in the hoffman process that week. So it kinda jar me that wow. Humans have such capacity for a range of delivery of emotions. So I was kinda shocked. The other part
that was difficult. We were asked to do some physical movements. Some expression work? Yeah. Some expression work and how is that for you? It was challenging for me because I am more of let me think about it. Let me feel it some more, and I had to be nudge by Steve to go over that boundary. You're here to learn for the week and to see how you feel during that, and
let's review it afterwards. So I think some of the boundaries of my own and of someone else, I wouldn't have been doing that that week, and it pushed me to be uncomfortable in both parts, but wow certainly allowed me to bond later with my group. Mh. The week comes still close, and you head back to your family of 4, your wife your 3 daughters, or what was integration back into the world like for you? I was nervous, and it was beautiful. So my wife, it was so supportive I was going.
And was is always looking for growth moments growth edges. Pride going for a week. This is... You know, I wanna see how we changes too. So when I came back, it was to 1 of a warmth and love and reception, I think I always have this fear because I've done several meditation retreats. How long can I make the power last for? And it was in my head because I remember when I used to leave the temples in Thailand after a month, and I'd be on the bus going back to, like, my school.
Can I get this 3 weeks of teaching? Can I make this force laugh? So I think I came home with that question? But how can I do it different? So it becomes more a part of day to day life as opposed to a vessel that's empty over time.
Until your next removal from society or retreat, you're comparing and contrasting the differences between the retreat you used to do in Thailand, which you describe as a vessel empty until the next retreat, versus Hoffman, which was what, which was learning skills for day to day to bring to the dinner table, to bring to conversations with my wife to bring to listening aspects of my relationship with my main relationship, my wife, that's great. It has a very practical
component to it. The skills that you can apply to the day to day, events, including, tonight's dinner with the family. Yeah. And like, I think we need both, but like, the meditation I could bring that home and then sit in the basement for 30 minutes, but the Hoffman is not removing. It's going deeper into the family unit and using some of the... I see you I hear you.
We're both worthy of love right now and using some of those things in the day to day, so that actually you can add to the vessel because you're working on communication and understanding. So that was neat. But I was still nervous about losing it, and I compare it to Covid. How many things have we all learned during Covid 2 and a half years, but how many are we gonna just let slide when things fully reopen and we go back to patterns and habits
and things. You know? So I'm trying to, like, hold on to what I learned, so I got home in March 20 17, and that takes effort because it will go away. How do you keep it alive? So I think I happen to see you in my life too, so that's a big reminder when I bump into you when we have talks and chats. I do have things up around the house, some of the magnets, but they trigger deeper thinking some sayings. Yep. Some I'm saying some, you know, meaningful models and
kinda guiding words for a day. You know, I have a... In my dresser. I have some things up top from Hoffman that we're powerful for me to remind me. And then I am in touch with some of the people in my group, it was so profound 7 years, 10 years into parenting. I haven't done a week like that, while I've been, like, a full hands on parent. So it... It's strong and present that way too.
You know, Brian I was thinking about you describing having a different experience because your parents have passed. And and yet, 1 of the things I don't often hear from people who've taken the process and their parents are no longer with us is for them to describe how great it was to hang out with them for a week. I love that. Yeah. And I think I arrive with we're gonna look at how we were raised with the intention of learning and growing.
So I think I arrived with knowing, like, my parents were able to do these things Whoa. I, that's a... They were able to do some of these things, and the things they weren't just kinda filled their humanity.
And filled their engagement in life, but still had shortcomings and things, but I think looking at both sides and spending time outside of Hoffman, you know, some of the most beautiful things happen outside of the conference room of the space and being with them in the fresh air again and taking walks with them, was a reminder of my own humanity and imperfections too, but I'm certainly from somewhere and I got to honor that that week
too. And I, I, even at Hoffman in some because of a path my parents set me on. Beautiful. You know, you're reminded me of a book Just digging into now, Susan Cain bitter sweet. Where grief is held right next to joy and gratitude right next to pain. And this conversation is reminding me because I'm thinking about your spirit guide who brought so much levi and joy to your experience that week, and yet also, your willingness to honor the pain in grief and your humanity.
Brian, how are you feeling at the end of our conversation here today? I'm feeling fortunate to have this time with you Drew. I'm feeling fortunate to reflect on it. It's almost like the 5 year mark. I'm feeling a little recharge, and know it's like, an hour conversation, but it is. When we have conversations with people it's powerful, and that's that's what this was, and I'm grateful for you wanted to help me reflect on that. And I'm also thinking now you 1 of your questions.
I also want to continue to ask the people I come across with how are you really? How are you besides the weather in sports and politics, and that's a good reminder from today too. Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza and Rossi. I'm the Ceo and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. And I'm Asking Rob seat, often teacher and founder of the Hop institute Foundation. Our mission is to provide people greater access
to the wisdom and power of love. In themselves in each other and in the world. To find out more, please go to Hop institute. Dot org.