- How often do you feel like you should put other people's needs? First, don't be selfish, be curious and be involved in what other people are doing. When this conversation with April McDaniel ended, that was what I kept thinking about was how much she is intentional about using the time she has to answer questions like, who am I? What do I need? What do I want? What do I wanna create? Please enjoy this episode with April McDaniel as she explores those questions and more.
- Welcome to Love's Everyday Radius, a podcast brought to you by the Hoffman Institute. My name is Drew Horning and on this podcast we catch up with graduates of the process and have a conversation with them about how their work in the process is informing their life outside of the process. How their spirit and how their love are living in the world around them, their everyday radius. - Hey everybody, welcome to the Hoffman Podcast. April McDaniel is with us.
I'm so glad to be having this conversation. April, welcome. - Oh, thank you Dr. Drew. - it, it's good to be talking to you. April, um, is the founder, the owner of Crown and Conquer, a talent curation, branding, influencer outreach. What else does Crown and Conquer do? April, - I think I would call it a, a creative agency that really allows brands to tell their stories and tell their truths to consumers.
And that comes through creative campaigns, experiential and influencer campaigns and programs. - Awesome. You're in Los Angeles? - Yes. - We should let everybody know it's seven 30 in the morning for you, but apparently this is late for you. You, you get up at what time?
- I get up between four 30 and five, um, and spend a lot of quiet time with myself in the morning, processing and relaxing, decompressing, all those kinds of things before I get my day started by seven, I'm either on a conference call fully dressed or on a conference call. In general, normally always prepared for the morning by somewhere between six 30 and seven. - April. Will you tell us a little bit about you? Tell your story? - Sure. Um, I am a mother of two boys, 19 and 12.
Um, live in Los Angeles, run a founder of Crown and Conquer and and run an agency of majority women. Super diverse, almost 40 employees. I am a widow for the last eight years. Lost my husband eight years ago when I was 33. Crown and Conquer. I built a almost six years ago, pretty successful company that oversees Spotify and Amazon and big brand activations, Adidas and creative campaigns.
Love to be a mom, a very present mom and be with friends and family and my tribe and really in the last two years has I have been working on kind of trauma, family trauma, adult trauma, you know, adulting trauma, um, and really trying to get a better understanding of why things are the way they are. I'm very much a person that needs to understand the why.
So in thinking about that, how we really get to the bottom of discovering things is understanding why and how it started and then how you can prevent it from happening again. So I'm very, um, strategic in life in general and really a puzzle peacemaker, like I'm trying to figure things out. So I think I've approached my mental health journey in that way. - I love the strategic leader of Crown and Conquer also is applied to your personal life.
So you get strategic around how to resolve and heal and how you got here. Will you share a little bit about what happened that has led you to this moment? What is part of your story? I - Think really at the end of the day it is, you know, as you mature in adulthood, I think it's figuring out what you want for yourself and being very specific in identifying that and then figuring out how to reach the goal. So I'm a type A personality, I need to figure things out. That's just who I am.
So I think I found myself very, one of the reasons I went to Hoffman is I found myself very cold and I really desired companionship and love and I wanted to really figure out why I didn't have that and what was preventing me from having it while also being honest that there, that I was hurt about certain things, whether they're small or big and how to adjust that and figure out how to heal those wounds.
So I think as I felt myself being closed off, I wanted to go through something that would open me up and I think Hoffman is really that for, for me specifically. But I think it also is like a truncated version of long therapy, which my personality likes really intense moments that I can pull from and then like recalibrate. So I think it was perfect for me.
I don't know that that process is for everybody, but for me specifically with somebody at my level career wise and the amount of time that I actually physically have for myself, those six days were extremely enlightening to figure out like what is the next phase of April McDaniel's emotional journey. So I think that was really what brought me to that moment. - I love this 'cause such success professionally.
And yet part of what I hear there is that you were wanting more, more connection, more vulnerability, more intimacy, emotional intimacy. And you said you used the word cold and you know, we talk about a pattern as something we learned in our childhood to help us survive and get love and cold can be a pattern or a strategy to keep yourself safe. And I imagine that worked for a while, but at some point you said, wait a minute, there's gotta be more here.
- Yeah, I think just being very real with myself on where I was and where I saw myself headed, you know? So I think in doing that and understanding that it was imperative for me to dig deep and figure out what was preventing me from going on that journey. Which I would say as fearless as I am, a piece of it is fear and being uncomfortable in the unknown. And I think as nice as success is for a lot of people, I think success is also very dangerous.
- In what ways? Share a little bit about that danger. - I think success, you know, as Biggie Smalls would say, more money, more problems, like, you know, I think it is the more successful you become, the more eyes are on you, the more you're leading more people, most likely the more you're put on a pedestal for what people want you to be, the more you know as a founder, you know, you're the first one to get blamed and the last one to eat.
You know, I think there's not a lot of compassion in this given to this role specifically. So I think at times it can be very lonely. And I started this agency to really do what I love and work with people I like.
I think the bigger it got, the more you get away from the creative process and the more you become a boss in quotes and people believe a boss is, people in their heads perceive it as a certain way, especially as a woman, a black woman, um, running a successful agency, there is a lot of misbeliefs on what that title entails and what you should or shouldn't be like. - And so as a black woman, how have you navigated that? What's worked for you in that leadership role?
- Doing what I want. That's why I own my agency. If I don't like it, I don't do it. Like, and that's really a lot of the ethos of who I am. So, you know, again, being realistic with what that looks like and being honest with myself, that's the nice thing about ownership. You can have a point of view, you can make business decisions best for yourself, for your team. And that's how I run my agency. - April, you've, you talked about being real with yourself and honest with yourself.
Uh, that's something a lot of people want. And so how, how have you been able to be straight up with yourself like that, to have that kind of courage? To be honest with yourself? - I think a lot of times people are operating in auto autopilot just like in trying to get through everyday life.
And I think, you know, it's interesting, you know, I turned 40 last year and I think that's a very pivotal moment of like being an adult and understanding what that looks like and making these life decisions. And there's a number of things that happen and I think in being real with yourself and understanding what's really needed, sometimes that's a very hard journey.
I think also keeping yourself around people that are constantly bettering themselves, constantly pushing themselves forward, constantly working on themselves and you keeping a tribe of friends like that is imperative. You know, I think people really stay sometimes in circles where they're comfortable. And I often like to stay in circles where I see people constantly trying to challenge their inner child, their inner person to become better. And I think that that's also pushed me.
So I think it's a combination of me being real with myself, me seeing other people go on the journey and taking heed to that. Me being, you know, even at Hoffman we talked about like awareness hell, like I'm not somebody that can sit in that place for super long, you know, that's just not my personality. So I think I was hyper aware, but it was like, okay, what noun? And I think that's what Hoffman gave me is like, okay, you can do this, this and this.
These are ways that you can show up and do better or think about other choices and listening to yourself and really working on yourself. - April, I love that awareness hell was a piece of your memory of, of what the process can do to take us out of that place. And so I just, let's go to your process. What's it like to be going so fast in your outside world and then drop into this intense Hoffman experience? How was it for you? The first couple of days?
- I mean it was super hard. I'm, you know, I think sometimes people may look at Hoffman and think every moment is like a, a aha moment and you're like crying. But that wasn't my journey. I felt like I was very observant of everything and I was watching and I was seeing myself and I was listening to my feelings. I was listening to my teachers.
You know, I think there's a lot of different personalities at Hoffman and there's a lot of personal struggles and you know, even as we discussed what trauma was and what trauma looked like and different types of trauma. And I think Hoffman allowed me to give myself empathy and also have empathy for others, which I really didn't have so much before. Um, I think dropping back into the real world was super hard because I didn't want to, I enjoyed being turned off. I enjoyed being fully present.
I enjoyed not talking about who I was and what I did in my personal journey. Like I really enjoyed that. And I think that that was, I want that again. I miss that. Like I miss turning. I haven't turned off my phone like that since Offman, you know, like, so I think that was really the possibilities of what could be and I think that allowed me to reevaluate what balance looks like for me - So that if it had been a eight day, nine day, you would've kept going.
You enjoyed it that much, that kind of presence. - Yeah, I think the coming out I was ready to go back into the world but I think it was a hard journey. I think it was very emotional. It was, it was, it is. It is like very ex two extremes. So they're so far apart that when you come back in, I understand the needing to be off a week and this and that. I just didn't have such a leisurely journey. So I really jumped back in and I started traveling immediately and it was intense.
But I think, I think I just really have been enjoying what's to come out of it and I think doing the additional work to make sure that I can give myself a full, you know, I gave myself a year mentally like a year to really like immerse myself in this world and figure out what I need more for me to realize what I want the next 40 years of my life to look like. - You know, you're talking about integrating back in after the experience and that's a lot of people's concern.
It's certainly a lot of people's struggle. Take us there a little bit. I love that you've given yourself a year, April, what else do you notice and what else has been informative for you around the integration post process? - I think it's really like, again, going back to success and what people consider successful.
So you know, I, I think as a mom and a provider and a and ahead of household and you know, providing the type of life for my kids that I didn't necessarily have, I think that there is a lot of burden that comes with that. Not just for women but also for men. Like, you know, I do play a very masculine role in being the head of my household.
So, you know, I think often I think about how men have to be in taking care of their kids, their wife and making sure they're providing and expectations of what the world believes you should live like and what you believe you should live like and then what you don't wanna live like 'cause you live like that as a child. So it all plays a part in like the mental mind in a lot of ways of like, you know, what that feels like.
But I feel like the integration back into life was very much so like this is actually enough for me. Like I don't really necessarily have to continue to work at 190 speed and kill myself 'cause this is enough, I'm happy here. Like, you know. And I think that that plays a part in materialistic things. Thinking about how your time is managed, who you spend your time with, who you can give your time to. I think in your forties, your fifties, your sixties, I think more death starts to happen.
People start to get sick. It's very real at this point in life. Like you are dealing with real stuff. Like it's not like, oh my god my girlfriend can't go to the club. Like, it's like, oh my gosh, my friend may be sick or her mom is sick. Or you are dealing with kids with challenges. It really is a very real and if you don't have partners, tribe, friends that can support you both mentally and emotionally, I think you can be at a real loss.
You know? And I think people don't, some people don't have that. - April you mentioned something so important that the need for partner friends community to, to support you in this journey and the uphill battle. I just noticed when you said this is enough for me, this is enough for me. I imagine that's not an easy place to be, to be in enough in a world that is pushing for more.
- Yeah, it's like, you know, I never did press, I was like a very private person and I had a private Instagram like before Hoffman and you know, you build a and the agency gets bigger and everybody wants to see what you're doing in your free time and this and that. Like there's something that it's constantly giving and for me it's enough, you know?
And I think I am very much so in a place of figuring out how to balance enough and looking at it in a very fulfilled way and figuring out how I can contribute to not only others, but my kids, their stability, their mental stability, their support, being able to verbalize certain things to my children, being able to support my friends through their hardships, being consistent. I think that was one thing I learned from Hoffman is that I personally really need consistency.
I'm a personality that needs consistency. I really thrive in that. So that's consistency and love. Consistency and understanding. There are certain things coming outta Hoffman I really figured that I needed to ask. And also in understanding what I want out of a partner, you know what I mean? And what kind of relationship is, is important for me, which I don't think I could have said, you know, eight or nine months ago.
You know, it's funny 'cause everyone's like, oh, what kind of guy are you into? And I'm like, uh, I mean I don't really have an aesthetic or like a, a kind of guy I am looking for, but I need somebody to have be consistent. I need somebody to be loyal. I need somebody to be kind. I need somebody to have integrity. Like, you know, and it's funny because those are things that don't come on like the third date, you know?
So I think and really just slowing down and being clear on what I really need to be in a healthy relationship, both in a love relationship and a friendship relationship. You know, one of the things I learned after Hoffman that was so clear to me, but it was also like an aha moment, was that loyalty and love don't necessarily live together, which loyalty and love live together for me, but it doesn't for everyone. - Say more about that. What are you learning about those two?
- To me, loyalty is an action and love is a feeling for me. I feel like those two things go together. But I, I remember one of my friends saying, well, someone could love you and not be loyal. And I was like, no, they can't, that's not possible. Like, how could they love you and not be loyal? Like loyal is the way you show somebody you love them, like by being there for them, by being consistent, by being, you know, a stable person in that person's life.
And it's so interesting that I, I mean I literally learned this three months ago that those things can live separately and you can still really love somebody and not be loyal. I still, that's still so crazy to me. - I was gonna ask what's it like to now understand that those don't live together?
- Disappointing and also level setting myself on expectations of what I'm expecting out of people though like, so now I'm not expecting those two things to live together, together because for everybody it doesn't. - How is the world of dating going and finding a partner in your role as such a high profile, full-time job, running your own company, raising two kids? How is that going as you find a seek partnership in your life? - I think right now that's still not my fully my full focus.
I feel like I'm in a place where I'm still working on myself and I truly believe that someone will find me and it will be the right person. I still feel like I'm truly identifying what it is I want for myself. And I'm getting very clear on that. I'm also learning to become uncomfortable in situations that I would've in in the past tried to control thinking that the things will happen in the, in the fashion that they should, you know what I mean?
So, you know, thinking about that and understanding what that looks like. So I think those are just some of the things that I'm focused on and I feel like I'm prioritizing dating when it makes sense, but I'm also still prioritizing myself. - Your commitment to your own learning, your own growth. And you mentioned something in there about really being comfortable with being uncomfortable, leaning into discomfort where you would've normally tried to control it or avoided it.
Will you say a little bit more about that discomfort? - I mean, Hoffman is the most uncomfortable thing you could ever do, like . I mean, I remember like some of the things you would say to me at Hoffman, I would be like, what? Like, you know, you know, I think the process is very uncomfortable and like, but the end result was so worth it.
So I think once I went through Hoffman and I was so uncomfortable and I was so out of my skin and it was so wild that I was like, oh, this is not, the end result is, is actually worth the uncomfortable moments that I was good with that. - Okay, this is so good because part of what you're saying is I was so uncomfortable all week long and then I realized that wasn't the end result. That afterwards I felt so good. - I felt so, um, accomplished. I felt like I had accomplished something for myself.
- So discomfort isn't the end all be all. There is something on the other side of discomfort. - Yeah. And I actually think it's really worth it to be extremely uncomfortable. - Are there moments in your life post-process where you've leaned into discomfort - All the time? Like, I mean, I've had a lot of difficult conversations I wouldn't have had in the past. I've learned how to communicate better with my parents.
I think with my kids, with my friends, I've learned how to celebrate my wins, which I historically hadn't done. You know, I think that there were a lot of things that were just really understanding of what that is. So, I mean, I think, yeah, I mean I, I'm extremely uncomfortable often and I keep leaning into that because I feel like it's going to give me peace of mind. Um, it's going to give me something, I'm not sure the return, but it will give me something. - But that's what I was gonna ask.
What, having leaned into discomfort over and over again with your parents, with your kids, with your employees, what can people hope to get on the other side of that? What's their, what's the reward for all that discomfort? - I think a lot of this journey you have to approach it on what am I getting? So like, I'm not having the conversation for others, I'm having the conversation for myself.
So it's not really about anybody else but me and what am I expressing and what, what is the return is like sometimes you don't even know like, so you know, I had one difficult conversation with a family member and I'm still hung up on what to do because that specific conversation was about forgiveness. And I realized that I really haven't had to forgive anybody in my adult life. My theory on life is like, if I don't like it and I don't like how you treat me, I'm out.
You know what I mean? And I don't have to talk to you and I don't have to deal with you and I don't have to allow you to treat me in a certain way. But in this specific situation, I just think it was a difficult misunderstanding not being on the same communication wavelength. And it was hard. So I think the conversation was hard, but the end result was that I needed to figure out forgiveness. And I think I'm still working on that because I've never really had to do it.
And I think what was the challenge in that conversation is that my loyalty was compromised. So now I'm fearful of trusting you and just dissecting that and understanding it more and figuring out what I can do better and just, and it's not about the other person for me, it's about me. Like, so I need to learn forgiveness. And it may not be for this specific situation, it may be for a future partner, it may be forgiveness for my kids.
Like I don't know what the journey is, but I'm open to figuring it out and thinking about it and learning it. Um, because I do think it's gonna add value in the near future. - I'm just noticing your commitment to change and transformation, even though you're not exactly sure what it's gonna look like, you're, you're open. - Correct. Yeah, very. - That's, there's so much curiosity in that, like what's it gonna be like? - Yeah, I feel like I am a very curious individual.
So like when things feel impossible, I'm like, that's not impossible. We could fi probably figure that out. I'm, I like to put together, I'm strategic, I like to put together puzzles. So like for me, I'm like, okay, well let's try it and see what happens, you know? And I don't think I really have anything to lose. And that is when the fearfulness of who, my core of who I am comes out is like, well let's try it and see what happens. You know, like, um, I'm open to that.
- So how has trying out and being open to forgiveness been going for you? What's that journey like? - I'm on it. I really have set no expectations for myself. I really am very open and just going kind of with the wind and being sure that what I'm doing is making me a better person. And I think in African American culture, a lot of the things that we talk about and do and are working on are not things that historically have been done in our culture.
So I think this is the first wave, like, you know, I think even when I went to Hoffman initially, I've been a spokesperson for it, like in my own way to my own community of like, you should try it. And some of my friends are going and like being open, but there always has to be one Guinea pig. You know, that's like coming back and being like, Hey, it was actually really good. Trust me. You know? And I think, I believe I'm that for the culture, you know what I mean?
Like I believe that that is something mental health, mental awareness, black trauma, you know, the things that black people go through. I don't think everybody fully understands you can go to a supermarket and be shot dead. Like that's very real. Like, and how on guard we are just in our constant everyday lives. I have two black boys that I raised, one in college, one in seventh, sixth grade.
So you know, really that type of anxiety just built up and being just doing your everyday life stuff, you know what I mean? So I think there is a uniqueness around being black, you know? And I think there is a uniqueness around mental health and talking about some of the traumas that we deal with. And a lot of us don't have the resources and the coping mechanisms to kind of work through it.
So there always has to be one that brings something back to the village to be like, Hey guys, here's some pointers. This is called awareness hell, this is this. Like, you know, and this is what's worked for me. And people also seeing the change, like I've had so many people say to me like, I've seen you change. Like it's crazy. Like, you know, and I think that a lot of times people can't be something that they can't see.
So, um, and especially more in our culture, - People can't be something that they can't see, - That they don't see, - That they don't see. Will you say a little bit more about that? You were talking about it in our culture, - I just think people, you know don't, if you can't see it, you don't believe that it's real. So if you can't see a black millionaire, you know what I mean? Like then you don't know that a black millionaire exists, you know what I mean?
Like, and it's in a very isolated, you know, situation. Like you may not have access to a black millionaire or you know, a black artist or certain things that you didn't think were possible if you are bought up in certain environments. So I think the more people are allowed to see it, the more that they can see it for themselves and they can see themselves in it and they can see themselves doing it.
So a lot of times in certain communities they see crime, they see drugs, they see certain things, so that's what they can see. So that's what they do. So it's important for, if you're going to be going on a journey, I'm not really somebody that desires to be a mentor. I'm not, that's not who I am, that's not my personality. I am somebody that desires change, but I desire that change in people seeing me change and people also me helping other people on their journey.
That's more the way I would like to spend my time. So like even, you know, doing a podcast for me is like not something I would typically do, but I think for the journey like Hoffman, it was so helpful. And I think when people think about it, people come up with their own misbeliefs of what something should be and you should be going into this journey very open to whatever it will be. 'cause what my journey is is not gonna be your journey, you know what I mean?
And if you are not committed to it, it may not be much more of a journey after the week you're there. Like, so you know, again, it is about the strongness of a mind and your mind and being able to figure out and prioritize what you want for yourself. But I think as I show people, it is possible. I think bringing awareness to mental health and trauma is really something that is something our community specifically needs.
- April, just to echo that piece of bringing mental health to the African American community and the historic and systemic trauma associated with being black in this country. You mentioned going to a grocery store and getting shot.
Yeah. I just to highlight this piece of you as the leader, I know you said you don't wanna be a mentor, but you did mention the word Guinea pig and the role you play as a leader, being willing to be the person who earns the money and, and shows that it's possible and be the person who goes to Hoffman and come back to talk about it. That's a lot of leadership. And then reporting back on what the experience is like. Do you see yourself in that role? - I see myself as a soldier.
Like, you know, it's funny, like the bigger an agency gets, the more people are like founder, founder. I freaking hate that title by the way, because I see myself as a worker, a contributor to crown and conquer a creative. Like I see myself with the people. That's where I feel the most rewarded, the most fulfilled. I don't feel the most fulfilled when I have to sit around and do reviews and tell people this is not working. And you know, that's not the best use of me.
I enjoy being in it with the team and creating, when you work together as a team, I call I my company, I call, you know, I say to everybody, my dream is that we're synchronized swimmers, like, you know, and we're all synchronized so that we're working together in a way that is bringing us the best results and the most success. And I think that with teams, it's very interesting to see how people idolize some roles and how people believe things should be in a certain way.
And what I did learn after Hoffman, that it was imperative if I wanted to seem like a member of my team, I needed to show vulnerability, which I hadn't historically been doing because showing vulnerability, especially in the black community is, is viewed as weak. So, you know, I came back from Hoffman extremely vulnerable. Like my team had never seen me cry, my team had never seen me talk about some of the things that I've talked about.
And I think that that really allowed people to see a softer side of me that I had never really shown. - How did that go? It - Went great. I think it was well received, you know, but I think it's abnormal for a workplace as well. So I think people are not used to seeing a boss showing up and coming from Hoffman and being like, this was my journey and this is what I'm working on. And I, I, I don't think that that happens that often, you know? So I think it was a very interesting process.
But again, that wasn't for them, that was for me. - I hear that as a theme. Like, what do I want? Who am I? What do I value? What do I need? Yes, - Correct. Like when you start doing things for other people, it's then it's not really for you. So everything that I've decided to do has been a priority for me. - You mentioned that doing a podcast isn't something you would normally do. I'm certainly grateful for your willingness to jump on this recording so early in the morning. Yeah.
- I'm grateful for you too, drew. I mean, I think, you know, it is important to be able to share certain things with people and I think Hoffman is a really special place. And I tell people like I have a very high eq like emotional EQ for, you know, understanding. And I think when I talk to people about the journey, talk journey, some people I say, I don't know if this is gonna be for you.
Like, you know, and some people I'm like, maybe in a year, maybe in a, you know, because I think you have to be in a place to really be open and ready. And when you, when you are there, the reward is so immense that you couldn't even wrap your head around what that ends up being. But again, you have to be open and ready. So I think that is the blessing that has been for me for Hoffman and really being able to stay grounded in what makes me do what I do.
Um, and really being a special place for people. And I hope that it continues to grow and be successful. And, and I advocate for, you know, a lot of people to go there and just bringing awareness to that journey. And I'm, I'm can't I tell my kids all the time, I can't wait to send them in their twenties.
'cause had I done it earlier, I think there would've been a lot to learn before parenthood and you know, a lot of things that I think could have been done better and a lot of hard conversations could have been done earlier. Because at the end of the day, all you have in life is time. So why waste your time? Why not spend time on yourself? Why not prioritize your time? 'cause that's actually the only thing that you have in a lot of ways for me is a real priority.
And, and people forget about time. It's just like going with emotions and living in something dysfunctional or doing dysfunctional things and like you actually have time to fix it and live a better version of whatever that version is that you never thought you would live. And it could happen in six months, it could happen in a year, it could happen in, it could happen in six days after Hoffman. You make certain decisions on what you want for yourself.
So I just think investing the time in yourself and prioritizing yourself can end up in the best results, not only for you and your friends and your family, but for your future self. - I love that intentionality about how we use our time. As someone who also says to my kids, you're gonna go to the process in your twenties. And sometimes they look at me like, yeah, right. But how do your kids respond when you advocate that that's something they're gonna do in their twenties?
- I think my kids have, you know, they were 10 and three when we lost my husband. I think my kids are resilient, although that's not a word I would like to use with a child. So I think that they will be ready and I think we really advocate a number of things on our end and mental health, you know, and just understanding that. So I think my kids will be open to it by the time that it is time for them to do it. I think that they will be open.
I think Hoffman can offer things a lot earlier, I think. And I think the way that younger generation is now, they are more in tune with mental health and talking about their feelings and taking mental health days and prioritizing their time that I think they are a more emotionally aware generation than we were - Thankfully. Right? - Yes. Now sometimes when it comes to work ethic, I'm a bit annoyed by a bunch .
But you know, uh, I think in, in saying that, I think in understanding that I think my kids will definitely be ready when it's time for them to do it. - April, in this time in this conversation, what's it been like to think back to your process and life post-process and reflect out loud about all this learning that has transpired? - Love, love for myself and really just being proud of who I'm becoming and seeing the sacrifice of being uncomfortable and rewarding that. So I am thankful for that.
- I'm thankful for you April and this conversation. Thank you. - Thank you. - Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza in Grassi. I'm the CEO and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. - And I'm Rasing Rossi Hoffman, teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute Foundation. - Our mission is to provide people greater access to the wisdom and power of love - In themselves, in each other, and in the world. To find out more, please go to hoffman institute.org.