Hey, it's Drew Horn, everybody. Barbara stuck and I sit down for a... Well, let's just say it's a deep healing soul for conversation. You know, she's been a teacher for 34 years. She was a teacher in my personal process. She has become synonymous with the Hoffman Institute. And I wasn't sure where the conversation was gonna go, but when we started talking about the loss of her partner, Jimmy.
Well, let's just say take a deep breath, settle in and enjoy it is deeply moving and powerfully healing conversation about grief and loss, and ultimately healing. Thank you, Barbara for this powerful conversation. Welcome to Lu everyday radius, Podcast brought to you By the Hoffman Institute. My name is Drew Horn.
And on this podcast, we catch up with graduates of the process and have a conversation with them about how their work in the process is informing their life outside of the process, how their spirit and how their love are living in the world around them their everyday radius. Hey everybody welcome to the Hoffman podcast. Barbara Com stock is our guest today. Welcome Barbara. Thank you. How are you feeling? Well, I'm happy to be here. I'm feeling a little nervous being interviewed. It's
just something that happens to me. I've learned to live with it. Robert, you've been a teacher for 34 years, a teacher of the hoffman process for 34 years. How many processes do you think that is roughly? I I've probably what an average of 10 over the years, sometimes last, sometimes some more. And so what is 340. A lot of processes Yeah. I could go to the beginning, and but I'm kinda interested in starting at the end ish because I know you're not done teaching, and but you have mentioned that
at some point in the near future? It might be your last process. What's it like to have been a teacher for 34 years. What do you notice? I noticed the difference in in the things that really grabbed me in the process, and what I love now is I love working with the individual students and with groups and the different feel of a group. And I love being with my colleagues I really appreciate the relationships that develop among, you know, in a team and how we work together and support each other.
And can... I know for me for years I've been saying this so acknowledging this I feel like teaching the process is a practice of love, and that's a great thing to practice. So it's loving my colleagues, loving the students loving the process. A practice of love. What's that practice like for you? Well, that also has changed over the years, but it's Oh, I didn't say and I'm also loving myself. So... But that's part of it.
So what we're doing in the process so much about love and connecting and and the light, which for me over the years has come to mean love. This is kind of ground of being that if we can tap into it, that is love. And so we can bring that to ourselves and to others and we can see the kind of interconnectedness. To love. So I think it brings to me closer that that practice brings me closer to the essence of things and gives me an opportunity to land there
and and and live there. Not that I don't get pulled out of it, not that I don't get over tired or questioning myself at times, but I can come back to that ground of bean. I love that to land there and live there and come back to there that grounded place of being. And you also talked about... And I love how you added the self love piece loving, for you loving your colleagues, loving the students loving this thing called the hoffman process and then loving yourself as well. This practice of love.
And that practice is, you know, it's not just sweet. It's kind of thinking sometimes it's fierce, kind of love. It's being willing to love a person enough to risk them being upset with you. To say the things that, will serve another. And also to say those things to myself. So it's not a my I... So I'm not finding the words, but just a sweet. Everything is great. Kind of love. It's a it's it's love can include everything or or the light. K could say, it could include everything. All of life.
It's not that that thought is bad and I don't wanna think that. I've already thought Why should I reject it? So to recognize that all of life and all of existence exist in that space. That's where I am now. I haven't always been there, but that's sort of what's going on for me now. Let me ask about what's going on for you now, Where are you in the chapter of your life now? 2 and a half years ago, my husband died, and it was a very short time between when we he got his diagnosis.
Who was 3 months from his diagnosis to his death, so that was quite compelling period of time. So I been experiencing grief, and which is just grew... I think Grief are partner something unimaginable until it happens. And I I didn't... I knew he was dying. I didn't have any sense of what it would be like for me.
Part of that grief as I've been, learning so much about myself and reflecting on myself and and seeing the places I fell down, and but also seemed to see myself and also recognizing him, but I'm I'm kind of moving too fast right now.
What I'd like to say is something very special happened in the last 3 months of Jimmy life, and I, everything else kind of fell away and and there was that ground of love and and forgiveness and compassion that we kept coming back to, I mean I would get triggered or thrown off or he would or whatever, but it was never anything we got stuck in. 3 months between his diagnosis and and when you both came to terms with this cancer and 3 months later he's passed.
And we knew, you know, at first, it was like, what can we do and trying to find treatment or at least extend his life a little because this was happening really fast. And then he decided to go into hospice. Then in we live in Oregon, and he was gonna do this death with dignity, but he died before that, even came through, So it was really fast. So there was about... There were several weeks a few weeks when I knew he was gonna die. So. And as you remember, those short months, those days.
What do you remember? What image comes to your mind? What was life like for the 2 of you during that journey. Most of it was very sweet. And then we were very together and connected and kind with each other. You know, first, we went to southern California to city of hope and so it's pretty unsettling. We were staying in a hotel and then going to my brother's house that he housed, an hour away from there and a lot on the freeway. And so there
was... We were moving around a lot and getting a lot of bad news actually, I felt so connected to him and just so much love and and so much, I was also having these beautiful experiences and you went to city of hope where they are so kind. So will you share a little bit about who they are and what that experience was like for you when the 2 of you went there? It's a cancer hospital. It's a research hospital and in La area, and it's centered around hope and love. I... That's
my sense. They have a they have a rose garden there. They have quite a nice sight, and all the doctors we worked with were so kind. And all the nurses or amazing. I remember walking out of the hospital area at 1 point, and I was crying because we just gotten bad news. And I I was walking outside had to get the car and and I was crying in this woman, ran after we were a box of tissues.
I mean, they're so attentive to everybody and the... I remember the doctor holding my hand when he was telling me you know, what had happened in this test, and I didn't wanna let go. And he was skill and kind of getting away. But he was also very there when he was there. I've never been in a hospital like that. You know and I've never been cared for like that in in a medical kind of situation. A beautiful place.
So I felt like I was learning something about also about the kind of grace that we can bring to any situation. And, Jimmy, and I felt so connected and loving with each other, and I remember sitting and waiting room, and there was a couple of across from us, and they were turned away from each other. And I felt really sad. I know such a hard time when someone is, you know, has a dangerous illness, but I felt sad about that that kind of turning away.
I think, Jimmy, and I tune towards each other in those 3 months. Be died at home. How were those final moments many people have never had the experience of supporting someone through their death journey, how were those as it came to an end for him? You know, with liver cancer that can be a lot of toxins in the brain. And so for a couple days, he'd been g and treated me really strangely, you know, and ordering me around and David said I... You're treating me like a servant.
I don't remember his response. But... And then something shifted in him. And that night, I actually... He got up every day and got dressed. I helped him get dressed and and he saw he was on the couch. And and that might I realized a lot had happened in the during the day, and that I wasn't gonna be able to get him in the wheelchair and get them to bed.
And so I called Hospice and they called the fire department, at these 2 fire came and got him in the wheelchair and got him into the bed as he was sleeping in our bed. And I slept that night in the bed with him. And then the next day he was struggling, and, he was having... He was this whole chest would get up and down, then just cave in with his breath, and I sat with him all day, and maybe I just sat with him on the bed. And and and sometimes I'd just ask him if he needed anything.
And and sometimes I'd say, things to him, they know. You, things like go towards the light or if you're afraid, if anything go towards it. But mainly, I I didn't talk a lot. Sometimes I'd ask him if is anything he wanted to say and it kinda of, you know, he wasn't be really speaking. And then, my sister Kanye came over There was something we had to do. She helped me. And and then my sister, brought over dinner for us.
She didn't stay. She just brought dinner over in And I said I'm gonna go see Jimmy, and I I went I checked in with him, and I gave him this medications and cleaned out his mouth and these things you do. And then I ran and I ate, these really delicious pork ribs that my sister lowell had brought over. And then I went to see Jimmy, then he was dead. So I wasn't there when he died, it was there most of the day. But he took his last breath when I wasn't there.
And that has been you know, a point that I keep returning to Drew He it was... I know it was hard for him to leave me. And so I think he knew. I mean, when I went back in and I gave him this meds, and I said I'm gonna go eat dinner, and I'll come back after and, you know, And he knew I wasn't gonna be there for a while. So I don't know. Whether he chose to dive in or just happened or... But a lot of people have told me, that he told them the hardest thing was
gonna be to leave me. So I've heard a lot of stories about amazing things happening. So somebody leaves the room and the person dies, but I wasn't there. Yeah. Jimmy would tell other people that 1 of the hardest parts about this was having to leave you. And said to leave, you know, just to leave earth. And how was hard too, but to leave me, and but there's this thing this puts me in mind of this thing that happened 1 morning when. I open the bedroom curtains.
And I think it was smoky outside or something, and I said, oh, not so nice. And Jimmy said, That depends on your perspective. So for him, he was savor the world. That changed my perspective too. It's nice. I learned a lot from him. Robert, when you remember Jimmy, what do you remember about him? Well, it it's sort of the same thing from when we first went for a walk in Tennessee Valley in your beach. And back, he would notice.
I he was so attentive to the physical world actually, did notice the smallest thing, the most beautiful thing. A tiny blue flower growing out of this side of the path where, you know it was, like a wall carved into the hillside, and he'd noticed this flower that I wouldn't notice I mean, my backgrounds and art, but I didn't see it. And he he noticed things like that in life. I mean, he took beautiful photographs, but he'd noticed the shadows of things and the...
Shadows of the venetian blinds on the wall, who took photos of those too. And so So that's 1 thing I kind of attentive miss to what is in front of you, you know, in front of him. I loved thought about him. He's had create vision in that way. It wasn't about the future. It was about right here, what can I see? I can see you seeing the world through his eyes and you noticing? He was really supportive to me. I mean, he really took
care of me. And he always said he was gonna take care of me and I old that didn't work out too will, but he liked that. He kind. I was talking to somebody this morning about Me was carried he'd go to the to bank and get 2 dollar coins. I don't know if you know, you can get a 2 dollar coin. They're kinda pretty and they're kinda big and He carry them in his pocket and he'd give them the people. He because of the street people homeless people.
But he didn't just give them coins he talked to them, and he he would know there's a little, there's a grocery store, not too far from where I live in and they're... Some homeless people that are hanging out around there, and he knew all their stories. It was good for me that he did that. I I learned something about generosity and paying attention. Barbara, how when the next day comes and life after Jimmy begins?
How do you navigate that? How do you begin to go through a day without this life partner of yours. I'm not too sure how I did the next day. I know I hadn't slept much. But I think what I did was I made a lot of space for grief. And, to feel. So what I really mean is I made a lot of space. To feel what was going on inside of me and give myself permission to have those feelings and and try to... I did a lot of the kind of self compassion break, You know, that little bet.
This is a moment of suffering and all, of a suffer. All, human beings suffer, and and, may be kind to myself. So I would hold the feeling with kindness I I wasn't trying to make it go away, like, it wasn't... That's not the point of the self compassion. Great. But to be okay with with myself and be kind to myself because I really needed kindness. And it was say
months. I I think I'm mainly got up drank coffee and bread and I didn't need very much, but I did eat, and I only have a cup of coffee, I wasn't drinking coffee all day. But I would I would... I've said there these novels. The other these detective novels by Louise penn that I had just... That I discovered. I think after Jimmy 5, and I read every single 1 of them.
And I gave my permission itself permission to be with my feelings and also to have these little as I once called them, like a vacation from all of that where I could enter into another world. And the thing about Louise penny, there's those stories is it... It's like a community and the same people come back and there's a warmth there and so forth, So. I had that. And then I started reaching out at some point. I started developing more friends in Ash.
That was really nice because I was... I've spent so much of my time traveling and then coming back and being with Jimmy that I... I only have a few friends in Ash. So I was developing friendships and then Covid hit. That was kind of hard. Because I couldn't see people so much. But some of those people would go by groceries for and stuff because I'm in my seventies and so it was better for me not to go to the grocery store at that point.
And I just kept feeling, you know, being with my feelings and taking steps, like, couldn't jimmy died in August and in December, I taught a couple of November, December. I taught to processes and visited friends in Berkeley. For thanksgiving and for Christmas, and that was really special. I mean, that was, like, such a wonderful time for me.
So is reaching out, 1 of the things in grief and both before Jimmy died after his the connection with people is so important for us as human beings, and I would lift when I connected with a friend, you know, I just feel something lifting and or when Jimmy was alive connected with Jimmy. So it's about connection and about allowance of feelings and making days, just getting through the days in those first days, just getting through them. As time
moved on? I even hear you reflecting on those days, what slowly shifts. What happens with the passage of time for you after Jimmy gone. I think that for 1 thing, the feelings move, they kind still calm. I I don't I don't think there's any any kind of feeling that has disappeared. I still miss Jimmy. And I still feel sad sometimes center. I feel so very alone or I think I will never you know, I will always be alone, and I I don't know that it. Any that that... Those
thoughts are true. I don't actually believe in them, but they come up. And and so all those feelings and thoughts to arise but I think there's just a little more space between them. And I wish I could explain it. It's funny I just... Did an hour kind of session on this? Wait. Did you lead a class or or... No. No. No. With some for me, who was for me. Oh, I see you are a student. Yeah. So... But there's... I think there's just like... It's like some It's it becomes easier,
but it doesn't go away. And I I remember when I, you know, within, like, a week or 2 after Jimmy died, 2 different people told me. Oh, it gets easier, but it breath never goes away And I I was in such intense state of grief at that point. I said, please don't tell me that don't talk to me about that because if I have to feel like this for the rest of my life, I don't know what I'm gonna do. So I would tell people what I needed. There's is... I mean, there are these things I learned like that.
Like, like, people don't know what to do. If people didn't know what to do. I I was... My husband had died, and they didn't know how to talk to me or what to say or, whether to say anything or whatever and, fortunately, I would tell them I needed, or didn't need. And that was a really good thing. I was happy. There... Things like that are result Well, doing the process and then all the work I've done since then that I realized that I had some skills that other people don't have at that moment.
I did feel pretty resilient. Felt a lot of things. It seemed to me that I was pretty resilient and doing really well. I think it was harder after the pandemic started because I was isolated, it it almost felt like going back somehow, backwards somehow. But I didn't. And, you know, I wrote that. I wrote a response and when David is it David Brooks? David Brooks, the New York Times writer. He asked for people to write about it. And so I wrote something. I wrote about Jimmy Dying and the ballot.
What was going on in my life and what it was like to be isolating and all of that and I don't know. I just wrote it. I didn't edit it, actually, which is unusual for me. And then on the bottom of my wrote, so this is my grief mind and and my rational mine says this, and I wrote a list, and I just put it in there, and then I emailed the whole thing, and then I got this... A call from someone that from is somebody he who works with him from the New York Times.
And that they liked what I had written and I would like to use some of it in the article. I was so excited. I mean, you cannot imagine. I was just through I grew up in New York. I was like the New York times. And I was... Thrilled and excited and, like, I couldn't believe this is happening to me, and I remember going for a walk and being feeling just like, on top of the world in that moment, and and joyful and and
That was really cool. You know, that was so cool in the next day It was it was still a a wonderful thing, but everything changes, you know, you can't sustain the excitement of a moment. So I think about that a lot because it... It really... I really let it land. It was really fun, and I didn't think it was gonna change my life, you know, but it was so cool. And Lena was just what it was. The imp of that excitement, and the letting go and remembering it for what it was.
And I remember writing in my journal at 1 point. To... I was thinking about letting go a lot. And at 1 point it Kendall It's not about letting go of, it's letting go into. I mean I still have that intention. I'm letting go into my life now. My life as it is in this moment and not living in the past I reflect on the past to lot, and I learned a lot from that.
Killer mother sent me a message, and Her husband had died a while ago and and she... I never met her, and she told Hillary to tell me not to get caught in regret and I really appreciate that message. Actually. Because regret comes up, like, not being in the room when he die, you know? Hillary Alec, another hoffman process teacher and her mother wrote you a note saying don't get stuck in regret.
No. She just told Hillary to tell me because Hillary and I were talking a lot at that point, and Hillary was a great support. For me at well Jimmy was dying and after... And yeah. And so she said my mom told me to tell you. Don't get stuck and regret. And you remember that. Oh, yeah. Because that is a trap. For sure. And it's it's a... It's got an easy trap. To fall into, I think. And, you know, I've regretted things, but I tend to practice self compassion Barbara, how...
When you taught the process after Jimmy passed, how did teaching it, support your healing. I think being again. That practice of love that, you know, I've kind practiced in teaching the process. So so it was something I... Definitely something I could do, and I had a place put a focus for the love. And I was curious about what it would be like, In teaching, I try to be self revealing,
in service of the student. So if it's not in services student, my intention is only to reveal myself and it's really in service of them. And so there were time, you know, I think my small group knew my husband had died and there would be things that I would would share that I hope were appropriate to what we were working on at the time that would would serve the students. So that was a kind of balancing act
you know? Because I I could talk, you know, at at that point, it was only a few months after, and I... Hi? I could talk about things, but I didn't wanna do it, like, for myself. But I could talk to my colleagues about what was going on also. And I stayed I didn't I didn't go into compassion. The the visualization and my stayed out of the room. And I mean, at times I were... Like
in brakes or some. I remember, I think I was teaching with Regina, and like, instead of cried in her arms and, know, something Hip were great. My colleagues were great. So I could take little crying breaks. Barbara, what's it like to reflect? On Jimmy passing and your journey post his death. It's a lot of different things. So right now, it's... I'm just kinda curious and what comes up, Sometimes you know, I. I do journal and my... And I... I've been using the check a lot since Jimmy died.
I don't know if I'm gonna answer your question directly. However you answer it is fantastic. K. So sometimes it's about learning something about relationship, because sometimes I'll reflect on death... Things that happened in our relationship, then I... And I get a different perspective. And so I learn more about myself or about him, Sometimes, I I've seen given so much more clearly, how kind he was with me? And with others. And but but how kind was really with me?
And how supportive and I don't know that I even knew that before that I really consciously recognize recognized how much he did for me. And then sometimes I reflect on things and we were very, like kin aesthetically connected, you know, 1 of the things I love to do is just sit next to him on the couch, like, Bill is thigh against my thigh and not talk necessarily, but just feel each other's presence. And and then I think of adam my gets... That's a little sad. You know, I or
I get it I get sad. I feel sad then I feel like I missed that. You know, I miss that. And I also I'm very, very grateful that I had it. He was very embodied, you know. So that was lovely. So there things that bring up missing and gratitude and learning and sadness, Yeah. I was just thinking about the sadness right next to the appreciation, the gratitude. Next to a little bit of regret next to some longing, all of this in a soup of feelings and thoughts.
And when I when I was talking to this person earlier, I you know, we were talking about how much... I am very relational. I'm not an ex. But I love relationship, and I've been married twice, and I love my relationship with my first husband. Even though it didn't work out. But we stayed connected and we stayed friends until he died. But I don't know how to move forward in that realm. I must say,
say more there. Well, you know, it's saying we're still being cautious and it's a big been through the pandemic and, like, I actually have never been... I'm, like, great at dating, I don't know how I ended up in these 2 relationships They just happened. So I don't know how to make anything happen. So I have done a little bit online kind of stuff, but I don't have much faith in it. How is that experience to be back or or not even back online because... No. Not back of line.
Not for dating. I've never done... It's abstract. You know, so somebody sends a nice note. Or something. And then I don't know who they are, and then I sent something to them, and they don't really know who I am it It's just feels abstract. And so then I often back off from it, and I don't follow through. I don't know. Somebody reached out to me a few weeks ago, and I really... I was busy. I was teaching both 2 weekends in a row and I haven't answered, and what really thinking about
that. Like, here's something I really... I I really care about actually. But I'm haven't been having that much faith in it. So Wow, Barbara thinking about you claiming this relational person that you are. I'm so relational. And then also saying, 1 of the things I loved about my relationship with Jimmy is the kin aesthetic aspect feeling. Our bodies next to each other, sitting next to each other on the couch on the floor. And, online dating feels the of that, so abstract. So so it's a challenge,
No. And I've I've had coffee with... Opposite do people that I've had interactions. I think I had interactions with someone who was kind of it wasn't really a person. I... Or I don't know what it was. He wrote great letters though. So it was fun that way, But that's a thing you're not... It's not that invested, you know, then I... Then they disappeared. Well, then, I think he got taken off the site. It was funny. Yeah I mean, it was peculiar because I had really enjoyed.
Writing and reading his set fit. He wasn't a real person to me. And he wasn't... I think he wasn't a real person. I guess that happens on the sites. Some fishing scam. Never asked for anything, but No. And the people just disappear. They write beautiful things that I respond, and then they're gone off the site so. It's hard to be invested in it, you know, hard to believe in it. Barbara. I'm so grateful for your.
Transparency and just real around life with Jimmy and I had all these questions, and I think we're gonna have to do a part 2 with Barbara Com stock where we talk about Bob and talk about the early stages of the process, and that feels way too important not to do and yet this Episode also feels deeply important to share with people what? Grieving looks like and feels like, and you've really taken us through through that journey. Well, thank you.
And there were... Drew, there were certain things that I initiated kind of early on that I would always... I would walk every day. And I would meditate every day. That's been really important to me and I went on a meditation retreat. Not too long ago. It's having that support in myself and using using the quad check, and I would hand the pen to Jimmy. I didn't know what it... Meant to do that. But I've just sort of... It would be Jimmy writing. I'd be holding the panel obviously.
And I just write whatever came to me and and There all these things we can do to support ourselves that I did to support myself. I'm lucky to I've kind of lived in this world in this way for so long. That many things came to me when Jimmy died or when he was dying, that I had a lot of resources. Internal and external resources. Barbara, Thank you for your time, and I'm excited. For part 2. Okay. Thanks, Drew. Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza and Rossi. I'm the Ceo
and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. And I'm Asking Rossi. Often teacher and founder of the Hop institute foundation. Our mission is to provide people greater act. Us to the wisdom and power of love. In themselves in each other and in the world to find out more. Please go to hump institute dot org.