Today, Katie sits down and opens up on how she found the process. In an effort to heal her relationship with her mother before it was too late. Through her work at the process, she found deep compassion and was able to walk alongside her mother during her recovery, while simultaneously navigating her own sobriety. We always say in the process never waste a good trigger, and that's exactly what Katie has done.
She shares her ongoing work with sobriety and how she personally merges the worlds of her active 12 step program and hoffman. Words Katie lives by, take what you need and leave the rest. Enjoy. Welcome to Loves everyday radius. A podcast brought to you by the Hoffman Institute. My name is Liz Sever and on this podcast. We engage in conversation and learn from Hoffman graduates.
We'll dive deep into their journeys of self discovery and explore how the process transformed their internal at external worlds. They share how their spirit and light now burn brighter in all directions of their lives, Their loves everyday radius. Hello, and welcome Katie. Hello. Thanks for having me. Yes. So excited to have you on the podcast today. I think before we begin, we owe it to the listeners to to let them in a little bit on how you and I met. Do you care sharing that with us?
Sure. Yeah. Well, we both decided 1 day to attend a hoffman process refresher course on self compassion. It was in the North Bay, and, honestly, it had done a few years since I had done the process at that time, and for no particular reason. I decided to go to this refresher course, and I was pretty grateful because I we've met each other there. I saw you across the room, and we just kinda clicked. Yes. We've we've been inseparable since and Katie has been just paramount to
welcoming me into the bay. She let me sleep on her couch. I mean, we've kind of done it all. It's just my pitch. That, you know, this hoffman community is so rich and so full of incredible humans, and you can... Even if they weren't in your press sets, you could meet someone through the Hoffman community and they can be lifelong friend, so I'm I'm grateful for that Katie. Good. Same. It was nice to just meet someone who spoke the
same language. Definitely. Well, let's jump in. When did you do the process? Yeah, so I did the process in spring of 2016? And I I jumped in. I was actually dating somebody at the time who had done the process, and, you know, I was going through a lot in the moment. I was taking care of my mother who was sick with end stage liver disease caused by alcoholism, And I myself had actually about a year and a half sober at that time from alcohol.
So as you can imagine, there's a lot of tricky kind of dynamics to navigate when caring for a parent especially actually when, you know, there's some disease involved there. So I was really struggling with with that aspect, and it really was suggested to me at the right time in my life. Wow. That's... Yeah. That's a lot to bring you to the process. I mean, was did you know much about it before going? Had your partner shared with it? Or... No. In fact he is
strangely mysterious about it? And I was like, what am I getting myself into, but I was honestly at a point where I was desperate to try anything to kind of deal with my own self. I could a lot of what I now know our patterns were coming up for me and and really making it difficult for me to not only show up for my mom, but you know, for myself in this time, I started to worry that I just wouldn't really had a relationship with her at all.
Despite her being very close to the end of her life, and I should add she is still alive today, and she is recovering, which is amazing, all these years later. But at the time, it was it was a pretty grim diagnosis. And, you know, I got the call several times. Come now if you wanna say goodbye, and I was in my twenties, that's not something any of my friends that I knew had gone through. So it's
was quite a challenging time. Yeah. I mean, III just can't imagine sort of, yeah, at that young age being faced with the possibility of losing your mom. And then at the same time, you rising to the occasion of I've got to do something to attempt to heal this relationship. So going back to the process, is there a moment during during the week that you felt really broke you open or really kinda landed you there. Landed you in the process. Yeah. Definitely. I remember it very vividly.
And for some context, 1 of the things that Struggling with most with my mom's alcoholism at the time was that it almost felt like she was doing it to me. And for someone who they themselves has directly gone through the whole the alcoholism has on you, and I, you know, had worked with many, many people trying to get sober. I have so much compassion for those other people. But when it was my mom, it was completely different, and I just was filled with anger and resentment, and
yeah. I was particularly challenging to show up for her because of... Because of that, like, you know, how dare you do this to me, even though I know myself in julie that, you know, alcoholism is so much more than that, and it's actually very complicated. And so there was you know, part of the process where I really got to explore what my mom's life may have been like in her past. You know, long before I ever came into her world or into the world at all. So that was pretty monumental for
me. Just understanding, like, she had a whole life before I ever existed, and understanding a little bit more about her past and her parents. Really shifted my perspective entirely. What would you say shifted your perspective and kind of what do you think it helped helped you see differently. It helped not make it about me, and it helped me see her as a person, not just my mom.
It all of a sudden, like, felt like all of the resentment, everything that I tied to every single little thing she did was removed, and then I just saw it as, like, I had, like, neutrality around this situation. I saw her making the choices she made because that was the best choice for her in any given moment. Yeah, it's beautiful, Katie. I, what I hear in that too is, like you saw her pain as hers. It was her pain that she
was taking on. Yes. It was impacting you and and creating this ripple effect, but to really say, you're a human and you're my mom. You know, you've had this life in these experiences and your own pain it's independent of of my pain. I know that can get it can get tricky. You know with that dynamic and that relationship of starting to feel the identities get en mesh. Right? And it's like, she does this. This is a reflection of me and vice versa.
Exactly. I mean, something as small is her you know, picking out the chocolate bar and eating it, I would just... You know, it means something completely different to me in those moments. So to really understanding, like, maybe she's just eating a chocolate bar, and that is it. Tell us a little more about that. What wasn't it meaning to you? Yeah. I mean, to me, it was... You know, she wasn't taking care of herself.
She was relying on her daughter to parent her, just not making wise decisions, essentially, that I would eventually have to pay for, you know, like, with my time, my emotions and finance. Is also. When really, it's like, no. She just wants a chocolate bar. It's it's literally that simple. Wow. Yeah. I love that because I I think for some people, even just learning about patterns, you start to
see that. Right? And just how something as as seemingly mindless as eating a chocolate bar and have this ripple effect to be catastrophic in your mind, and and bringing it back reeling that back and just saying, oh, mom just wanted a chocolate bar, But it's also what patterns do Right patterns take us out of that present moment and we're off. We're off to the races with the the stories in our head, the crazy tape plays in our head and things trans.
Yeah. That's probably like, the biggest thing that has helped me throughout my life since doing the process, which is crazy that it's been 6 years ago. Yeah. Just that that concept of kind of seeing things as as simply neutral instead of applying so much heavy weight to every single thing. I take that into my work life today. When somebody does something that I don't agree with or maybe somebody forgets to... I don't know
post an announcement. I I no longer think they're doing it to me that it honestly has anything to do with me but that likely there's a whole list of things that have happened to them that day or whatever that has caused this outcome, and that it's actually pretty benign, and I can always ask questions or you know, help out instead of just immediately assuming bad intent. Yeah. Powerful. Yeah. I'd say the other part of the process that still lives within me today is this concept of the dark side.
This has been something that I think has... I've always known as a thing, and I think it's a thing for probably everybody, but it was really helpful for me to put a name to what that is. And for me, it was always pretty clear, you know, since I was pretty young. I've always struggled with anxiety. I've always whatever. I mean, I had a very lovely privileged upbringing, but I struggled with alcoholism an addiction. And I definitely...
It was easy for me to kind of assign addiction as my dark side in the past, if I were to use that vocabulary for it. And I really, really enjoyed kind of taking this next approach to within Hoffman like, after I had gotten sober because I was kind of coming to the point where my dark side was no longer, leading me to a drink. It was no longer, you know, giving me that, like, long and feeling to be, you know, checked out or drunk or whatever. It was actually other things. I I was realizing that
like, yes, it's great. I removed alcohol from my life, but a bunch of other things started boiling up, which makes complete sense, with addiction, it is often the result of people self medic other underlying issues. At least it was for me. And that anxiety that I had lived with since I was a child just, you know, can came back with a vengeance and we find other ways to suit ourselves. Right? There's many different avenues people can go with that, but for me, it's changed over the years.
I got sober in 2014, and basically what that looks like for me today is completely different what that looks like for me when I first got sober. Then I'm really grateful for that right. Like, when I'm anxious today, I will... I don't know, like, sometimes I'll play a video game for a long time and loose sleep. Sometimes, I, you know, I reach out to a friend and talk about it even though I know my intellect is telling me that's crazy. Don't do that. But maybe I need to text an ex boyfriend.
Whatever it is, it is a lot more benign than it used to be. Like, I'm no longer kind of, you know, destroying my body in this way. I'm really grateful for that, but it's very obvious to me that the dark side is very much there. It's just now I have more control over what I do with that. And I think you bring up such an an important just understanding. Right? That... When we talk about it the process. We can't kill the dark
side. Right? But what we can do is get to know that voice and recognize quicker when it's coming, you know? And so it's interesting to kinda hear this experience of the dark side it's is shifting. It's morph thing, but also just goes to prove, We can't kill it. It will find a way into our ice, but also knowing that you know the tools. You know the... I talk about this a lot with students, sort of knowing your weak spot. Right?
Knowing those where the defenses are down is a time in which the dark side may try to enter. And so it sounds like for you, you know, anxiety for you fear of unknown fear of whatever. Right Might even be under that anxiety is a way a window in for your dark side site. But how do you how do you deal with your dark side now when it comes? Well, like you said, it's, like, when our defenses are down, The dark side is is
much louder. That voice is so much louder and And trust me. 1 of my patterns is to avoid these types of things and that like you said, does not work. It comes back with a vengeance. When those defenses are down for me at least no today, what causes that and something we often say and recovery groups is halt if you're ever feeling, that anxiety if you're feeling like you need to drink or in, you know, how midterms, if you're feeling that dark side voice getting louder and louder,
just halt. And with that stands for is hungry, angry lonely tired, and those they're just covering your basic human needs basically signaling, which for me, it's, like, Yeah. When I'm hungry, I do not make smart choices. I can I can vouch for that? Dark side bots come in when Katie is hungry. It is so real. Anybody who knows me will see that. And it's... We've had conversations list where I'm half way through a sentence, and I need to stop and literally eat food because I'm like,
oh, shit. Here it comes. So anyway, so what do I what I do today is I first and foremost before the before the dark side even makes an appearance, I try to prevent it. You know, I shouldn't say prevent it. It's always gonna be there, but I can make that voice quieter By simply like tapping in into my own needs, which, you know, in hoffman terms might be a quad check. I might check in with my body
and see what I need. You know? And I might express some gratitude for my for my actions and for my body and for my spiritual myself in that moment, and it may become really clear to me in that moment. Oh, I need to get up from my desk that I've been sitting at for 8 hours straight and probably go for a walk. Or maybe if I need to eat a healthy meal, whatever it is. I at least have, you know, the ability to recognize
that ahead of time. These days, Like I said, it's been quite the journey over the last 7 years of recovery. But what I know to do now, if I don't meet my basic means. I mean, just last night, I stayed up way too late, and I have been tired all day today. You know, I I get to pause. I get to text friends about that. I get to... I did a quad check right before this
I think he was. And, you know, it it just completely changed the game for me and and allowed me to tap into my spiritual self, which who I know has my back at any at at any given time, You know? Yeah. Well, I I love this idea of halt. Right? Am I hungry angry lonely tired, and then, you know, that's like you were saying, a term or a concept brought to you by by the recovery. But I also... It's just like you said, it's sorta of, like, a little many mini quad check. I'm checking with my body and
my hungry, and my tire... I'm checking with my emotional self. And I tired angry lonely, whatever may be presenting itself. So I I love seeing kind of the similarity in that. And I'm really curious just knowing what I know of you and how incredible you are. Just about everything you do. I am interested to hear a little bit more about how post process, how you merge the worlds of sobriety, step work and hoffman. Because, like you
said, you know, I've been about... You'd been sober for about a year and a half prior to going to hoffman and now you've had, you know, well beyond 60 years now. So I'm I'm curious. How have you merged those worlds? A great question. I honestly... So I got sober 03:12 step programs, very reluctant. I was 1 of the last people you would ever expect to walk into 1 of those rooms. I mean, I saw the word got on the wall, and I I wanted to just run, but similar to when I came into the process,
very kind of scared too Was very... It was very mysterious to me. I didn't know what I was getting myself into. I I had a similar feeling when I first walked into Aa. But similar to Hoffman, I was also very desperate in that time. And, I'm actually pretty grateful for that desperation both times, like, per aa in the moment I was able to actually start working a program and get sober, and then
also for when I walked into Hoffman. So It was easy for me to, like, kinda dive into the world of Hoffman once I showed there. I mean, easy is a is a stretch. It's a lot of work. I think it was so different from step fit I was just kind of ready to do this deep dive, but I did find some similarities along the way while I was there, which I can touch on soon.
But I wanna I wanna talk about how it was going back into the 12 step rooms after hoffman, because It wasn't what I expected, I actually had a really difficult time jumping back into that life. So when I went back into the 12 step rooms after Hoffman. I had kind of this vision in my mind that I would be so much more into the program, I would be... I don't wanna owe some spiritual guide for people. Now that I had all this other information from the process.
And it was actually quite the opposite experience. I really struggled to integrate back into meetings. Yeah. It was is it was the surprise. Because, obviously, you know, once you come out of the process, there... You have a lot of new information in your head. And And I thought I knew everything there was to know about recovery. I thought, like, I'd really throw myself into the program once I got over the god thing, which we can
also touch on. But once I kind of moved past that and was able to use it to my benefit. Yeah. I really I really thought I had it all figured out. And I didn't... It really showed me that there's so many different ways to approach whether it's sobriety, recovery from anything or just I don't know improving ourselves in life in general, and that was a little jarring. I'm not gonna lie, but then it only took a few months, and I was able to kind of apply what I had learned about myself in Hoffman
to my 12 step work. And that that was incredibly helpful. And the easiest way I was able to draw kind of comparisons between the 2 was, you know, talking about our negative love patterns is is very similar to something we talk about in 12 step rooms, which is our character defects. And that terminology was never my favorite because character defects and 12 step kind of refers
to essentially, your negative patterns. It's So things you keep doing over and over again, you may not be sure why you're doing them, but they're really not serving you or other people around you. So was it was it the concept of character defects or the language of character defects that didn't resonate? Yeah. It
was the language that I struggled with? Because I I didn't necessarily wanna see them as, you know, I'm defective or this is a part of me that I wanna chu away from me, but rather it's part of me for a reason and hoffman helped me see that reason and then turn that around. Yeah. And be able, you know, as we encourage in the process, look at things as patterns.
Yeah. Exactly. And and everything in 12 step recovery rooms are always suggestions, and, you know, it is really easy to get hung up on the semantics, especially for me. Especially as, you know, very liberal atheist girl grown up in the Bay area.
The God concept was also something that I really struggled with and for some reason, tapping into a spiritual self was not a challenge for me whatsoever, and I actually remember having a very vivid image of, like, what my spiritual self look like at the start of the process. When a lot of people were actually struggling with that for understandable reasons, but I was just like, oh, there she is. And I know her very well.
And that has been something that has directly helped me with my 12 step work as well. I love that there. She is, and I know her so well. So when you say that that concept of spiritual self, how have you... I mean, let's talk a little bit more. How have you been able to bring that language that terminology into your step work and make that make that work? Is it just a direct substitute for you or have you handle that? Yeah.
I think I'm I'm at this point now in my sobriety, and I'm very grateful to be here because I know and if... You know, if I stop doing the work. I could be right back at square 1. With where I'm at today, I'm super grateful that it's actually really easy for me to just kind of, you know, swap it out and, take what works for me in step work and not take what doesn't work for me. And that's okay.
I've learned, like, yes, it's a spiritual program, but it's not religious, and I've learned, you know, you can work anybody, a sponsor who is Atheists, a sponsor who has also been a hoffman, whatever. The key is to kind of just, like, let it be what works for you. And, Kenny, I'm I'm curious to hear how now years, you know, it's been several years post process. It's been more years into your sobriety, has Hoffman
contributed to your sobriety. Right? Has that had an impact in how you hold sobriety or work with your sobriety? Oh, absolutely. I think it's actually a huge component of it. I basically ask my spiritual self what they have in store for me today because it's you know, getting sober, I had to really rely on something that wasn't myself. We learn all about how self will can... You know, lead us back to drinking, self will kind of got us to our bottom. We really had to rely on something else.
And for me that that was so contradictory because I walked into a room myself. I asked to have someone sponsored me myself. I am just like, a harsh harsh atheist in that regard. And, you know, honestly, I'm very... I'm always very, Nd of folks who do not have that barrier and just jump right into it, and that is absolutely amazing. But for me, the concept of my spiritual self has probably been the most monumental piece of my sobriety it just kind of removes a barrier for
me. And, you know, she's always there, and I always know what she looks like. And I can tap into her. So much easier than I could, you know, any other any other thing. Yeah. I mean, looking back on it, would you say Your spiritual self is what guided you to, that first meeting or the courage to ask, you know, someone to sponsor you or even to to go to the Hoffman. Yes. 100
percent. 100 percent. It's what guides me, you know, into getting up and, you know, having a glass of water in the morning instead of, like, eating something and health be. It's what guides me to, you know, maybe walk that extra block when I'm walking my dog, even though I just wanna go home and be lazy. It's Yeah. It's it's pretty prevalent. Yeah. And I I think the the thing that I keep hearing in your story, which I think is so powerful is finding what works for you and not attaching yourself
to language. And we speak about that at the process too. Right? And I It's a concept that is so important to any type of growth is not to limit yourself or it excludes yourself other yourself just because some of the lang doesn't work. And so I think hearing how you've been able to. And and I know you very dearly, and I know that you work your stuff. I know this is a
huge part of your life. And so I think that knowing that you make the steps work for you in changing up some of the language, some of the semantics and not letting that be a barrier. Right? But just saying this is something... I'm taking the good and I'm leaving what doesn't work for me. Is powerful stuff. Exactly. Exactly. And it's it's what they tell you to do from the moment you step into the rooms. You say, they say, look for the similarities and not the differences because...
Yeah, I can walk a meeting or an 80 year old man is talking about his, you know, life and jail or whatever, or something I I seemingly on the outside have no relation to, but I can relate to the feeling. I can relate to that powerless I can relate to just the the agony of hurting the people around you, but not meaning to. So, yeah, I apply that with hoffman as well. Yeah. It's been pretty powerful. Yeah. And just that kind
shared humanity. That right that common thread of, yeah, Look for the similarities and let that touch you. Let that live in you, let that grow. You know, we talk about especially on this podcast how love, you know, loves everyday radius, and I just think that such a beautiful way to think about the changes that happen at Hoffman. And so what would you say is your... How Hoffman lives in you, how it ripples out and touches those around you, how it's in your everyday radius.
I think it's allowed me to just be confident in who I am and and not question, like, the choices I'm making today. It's helped me, like, recognize why I'm doing the things I'm doing, and then I'm not flawed. Yeah. I don't have to get down on myself for doing the things I'm doing. I can I can recognize them and I can do the work to whatever, do the opposite or whatever that looks like in the moment or maybe maybe it's that I need to do it, and I I get to have compassion for myself after
the fact? I think that's the most radiating parts about this in my life today. Is just being that in the world and being confident about it, so it actually allows other people to do the same in in the rooms of Aa at work, whatever it may be, when I talk about what's true for me and what I know about myself and my experience, it'll allows someone else to say, oh my god. Me too. I've not heard that before. And, you know, that's the ripple effect. I
think it has out on the world. And how do you show yourself self compassion or self kindness? You know? That's a good 1. Coming full circle to the workshop we met at. I think that's always going to be a struggle for I was also a competitive gym growing up in, you know, self compassion and kind of self care was definitely not something that was taught to me. And In
fact, it was seen as a weakness. So I think that's been a huge huge pattern to work with and it's also something I get from both of my parents. So, you know, what that looks like for me today is sometimes just being still I... As you know this, I'm always doing things. I'm always racing around, and I'm always trying to find the new, new business idea, new dog, whatever it is.
And I Sometimes I just need to pause and breathe and be okay with where I'm at, and and recognize all of my accomplishments. Yeah. I'm actually really proud of how wear on that today in life due to all the work and also just having that self compassion long way. Heck yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Katie. Katie, any advice for those curious about how to manage or work or struggling with sobriety and personal growth, whether that be Hoffman or something else.
I always just say just talk to people about it, Like, you might... Whoever's listening, may resonate with maybe 1 thing I've said, but maybe not. So there's literally so many people who have either done that process or who have gotten sober in the rooms or both in any order and I would just say, like, have humility and and show up and do those things, just talk to those people, let them know where you're at. You never have to be anywhere other than where you already are, people will
meet you there. And, if you have an honest desire to improve in some way or whatever, just change something. I would just have that humility, talk about it, and and be willing to maybe do something that's uncomfortable to take that next step. Thanks, Kitty. Yeah. Just show up and and have the humility. I love that. Well, thank you so much for meeting with me today and really sharing your story. It is so incredible and moving to hear how you've navigated this. So thank
you so much. Of course. Very excited to be here with you today was. Thanks. Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza and Rossi. I'm the Ceo and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. And I'm Asking Rossi. Often teacher and founder of the Hop institute foundation. Our mission is to provide people greater access to the wisdom and power of love. In themselves in each other and in the world. To find out more, please go to hop institute dot org.