Welcome to Love's Everyday Radius, a podcast brought to you by the Hoffman Institute. My name is Drew Horning. And on this podcast, we catch up with graduates for conversations around how their internal work in the process is informing their life outside the process, how their spirit and how their love is living in the world around them, their everyday radius. Hey, Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Hoffman Podcast. My name is Drew Horning. And on today's show, we have Dan Sterling. Dan, welcome.
Thank you for having me. It's good talking with you. Dan, so will you introduce yourself to everybody? I'm Dan Sterling. I'm 44 years old. I'm the father of 4 children, 2 boys and 2 girls. I grew up in a rural part of Alberta. My parents still live on their 80 acre farm, and, I'm a Christian. I have a bachelor of science in biology. I worked in the military before becoming a police officer 14 years ago. And, I guess that's a good intro as any right now. What, what can I tell you
there more, Drew? That's great. I'm grateful for the time here. You know, it's not often that I get to interview somebody who was my student. And 2, 3 years ago, you took the process. And I and I just have to share it because you and I talked about this before, but when you walked in that room at almost 6 23 £100 with that scowl on your face, you know, I I don't get scared much, but, I I took a breath because I thought, uh-oh. Wow. This this is going to be an
interesting time. What was it like for you when you stepped into the Hoffman process? Well, if you can forgive me for going back into character, I thought it was retarded. I thought this is really not what I wanted to do. Actually, when I looked around the room, I was very judgmental over the people that were there. And when I looked at, at the instructors, I thought I was actually angry at my my boss at the time who had really recommended and set up for me to come
to the process. I still remember that beaming, shit eating grin that he had on his face when he said, Dan, I'd love it for you to go on this process. You you would really benefit from this. And he went through the process with my wife. Like, he's a personal friend of ours. And I I really, at that point, realized, holy. This guy sent me here, and my wife really didn't tell me anything
about it. He didn't tell me anything about it, and I thought this was some kind of joke at first that I was gonna be here. So I don't know what else to tell you about it, but I I at first, I was not impressed. In my fact, my sister lives down the road about half hour away from where it was. And I really was thinking of of, I kept my my duty phone, by the way. I was gonna call her to have her come pick me up because I I just didn't
even like what I saw at first. I was mad, actually, when you saw me. I was mad. You looked mad. And and but why why did your boss, as a police officer what does the Hoffman process have to do with being a an effective police officer? Why would he recommend this? Policing has a habit of changing someone. And my boss, being who he was, he was a very compassionate, very thoughtful man. He knew a lot about me. Him and I had known each other for a while, and he could see this sort of darkness
that comes over people. Let let me put it this way. When someone has a firefighter show up, they're really happy that they're there to save their house. When paramedics show up, everyone's happy, but cops are never there for a good reason. They get to have everyone at their worst. They start becoming very disengaged and jaded over time, and he could see that happening. He talked to me about it. Him and I were we'd go for coffee together, and he talked to me about
about things. And he could he could see that I was having trouble in my personal life, in my marriage. And it was just like this when I saw him come back from the process himself, he was just beaming. He was just so happy. It was, like, shit just rolled off his shoulders. He didn't care. He was just in it for the right reasons in life. And I wondered what had actually happened to him, because he went through it a month before I did.
And then he called me in his office, and we're just gonna sit down and talk and, of course, to close the door. And then he's talking to me about it, and he looked way too happy for this to be okay. Like, I should've known that something was up.
And I and I think this process would be very valuable for a lot of police officers to be involved in because we we somehow compartmentalize the things that would make us very vulnerable where it would be inappropriate, but then we keep those things compartmentalized for people that are important, like our wives, our our children, and we get shut off. And then that's that's just, I guess, in a nutshell, what I was going through at that moment. I was actually almost scared
because I realized they couldn't hide. There was nobody else there like me. There was hippie type people there. There was people who had all kinds of stuff going on. Like, I didn't wanna hang out with people who did yoga. That that was just bizarre. And yet, I actually ended up liking them. Towards the end of the process, it's like, these are really awesome people. And so just to give us a sense of what life was like for you, what was hard on your heart? Absolutely.
I was a lead investigator for some very difficult in investigations. And less than 2 months before I came on the process, I was at the lowest I've ever been in my life. And I had to investigate, the death of a child. And it was when I realized I had a big problem. I actually knew I had a big problem then. I remember sitting in my police truck, and I was having a breakdown, but it was silent. It was stoic.
I drove to the to the police detachment, and I told my boss I just need a couple couple hours. And I went and sat in the gym room. I lifted some weights, and I sat in the dark, and I locked the door. The gym door would lock where I worked at that time. And I realized I couldn't cry. Throughout my childhood, I I'd kind of learned that the only emotion a man feels or can express is anger. And so I really hadn't allowed myself to
be emotional in any other capacity. It was either they're being very stoic or angry, or when I was being funny, I was insulting somebody. And I just was having a meltdown, but I couldn't really formulate that that was what was happening. I think that my boss saw that. So, Dan, what about the process and other police officers? What's your take on how it might help them? I think that every police officer, after about 5 years of service, needs to go through this process.
Absolutely, they need to. It's not uncommon for police officers to have a background that this would be beneficial for, but I think that every police officer should go through this process. I think it would be better for everyone, especially with the issues we have going on right now in our both of our countries. I think it'd be a great thing. We need to do it. What would be the benefit to police in particular?
I think that the same things that were happening to me with getting cold, getting detached, I think they would be able to come to grips with what that is and give them the tools to not do that, to get engaged it's okay to be engaged emotionally with your work. It's a good thing. They would help them override that survival mechanism they need to always be in survival mode. Maybe it's okay to smile. Do you know how much a smile actually affects the public?
Hey. It can be the one thing that prevents an officer from getting into a fight sometimes if they're approachable, professional, a little bit friendly, until they're given a reason not to be. But I can guarantee if most people are feel like they're being treated with respect, I I I think that it would diffuse a lot of the situations. I think it's so it's so salient to everything that we have going on right now. We we need more police officers to have this process.
So there you are in the process. You don't call your sister. You hang in there. And what happens? Like, honestly, Dan, what happened? Well, you did something really amazing. At one point, you came up to me right out of the blue, and you asked me, Dan, can I give you a hug? And I didn't realize until you did that that I needed a hug. I've almost felt like
a like a pit bull rescue. You know those videos you see on YouTube with these pit bulls getting rescued and, you know, everyone thought they were a big mean thing, and they're not. And you could see that. I mean, I even said you at one point when you said all Canadians are are really friendly. And I I I don't know if I said it under my breath, but my my people that were in the group heard me, and you didn't react. Like, you you were kind to me when I was actually kinda standoffish and mean.
That's what changed me on that. If if you had reacted to me or anything, I probably I was giving myself a reason to walk out, and I'm glad you didn't give me that reason. Well, I'm glad you didn't walk out either. And as you as you dug into the work of your childhood, what did you discover? What were those first few days like as you began to uncover some of your earlier experiences in your life? I I guess as a backstory, I came from fairly humble beginnings. My dad had a service station.
And at the time, the National Energy Program in the eighties actually did tank Alberta's economy. And I was raised to believe that Liberals did this to us. So I I developed this nebulous sort of, abstract concept that there was these Liberals out there that were just gonna with your life and make everything miserable, and that it was only cool people like myself and anyone I hung out with that were were above that. And so it was very blue collar in what
I perceived to be right and wrong. And and, I I really had a chip on my shoulder. I'd get into a lot of fights at school. I got pulled out of 2 schools because of fighting. So, Dan, let's just let me just get that clear. So your dad has a a gas station, a service station for cars. Although it doesn't yield a lot of money, it does provide a living wage, and then the government creates what that makes the service station go out
of business. Well, I I guess to be specific about it, at the time, prime minister Trudeau, who's the Liberal leader at the time, put in the national energy program. And in Alberta, people actually stopped going to any Petro Canada station because they wouldn't support something that had ostensibly destroyed the Alberta economy. It wasn't the sole reason, but that's how people perceived it. And there was a lot of Petro
Canada stations that went under. And my dad had a full service 3 3 bay garage with full repair and everything. He had mechanics working for him. And at the end of every month, he still had enough to provide us, a a okay living. And as a kind of statement, you were boycotted along with other Petro Canada stations. Absolutely.
And the thing is is people who lost their stations were somehow sympathetic to that because they felt that in a in a big hand, small map analogy, they thought this was just a natural result of of the National Energy Program. And so what I pulled from that is that Liberals did something to me. Well, your dad helped with that. Right? Yeah. But I believe in her, a lot of it was my mom. I'd watch something on the news and say, well, what about this? And I'd always ask.
And in my mind, there is these Liberals in Ottawa that wrecked my life. And that's how I started to see every everyone. So if I would see teachers' kids who I knew were reasonably well off, I automatically wouldn't like them. Then I would start hanging out with rough kids that maybe weren't the best because, well, I didn't feel bad about being around them. I got to the point where I wouldn't keep a friend, and as long as they had were good, they had to have some kind of damage about them.
Reaching into my adulthood, that really became a common theme. I would want I would seek out people who were damaged or had something off because that was my crew. That was always the way I'd kinda rolled. It it's it's kinda messed up if you think about it, but I still remember getting towards the end of a month. I was we didn't didn't have a lot of food in the house. And I remember my mother was frustrated too, and she goes, if you ever feel bad about it, just know of this. This is what
a liberal did to you. I'm like, holy. There's these liberals out there. And as as a as a 9, 10 year old kid, you don't know what a liberal is or political leanings or anything. You just know that there's these bad people out there that wrecked your life. And I, by extension, started including this really wide list of people that wouldn't even fall in that category by any rational definition, but it it became very isolating. There was a lot of friendships I could
have had. There was girls I could have gone out with when I was in in college, and I just refused a lot of a lot of what could have been good in my life because I was still stuck there. So with Liberals as the perpetrators for much of your suffering, you you end up in the workforce. And then what happens as you marry? Oh, that's, that's kind of a how did that happen? I met my wife online. When I was in the military, it was very hard to meet nice girls.
And I kinda knew that she was from a she both of her parents were teachers. Then they are actual Liberals. Yeah. That's how they vote. And so does my wife, sometimes, if she feels like it or she she's very much an issues driven person. And she's the first person that really loved me unconditionally. She's the first person that
believed in me. You know, when I told her I really didn't join the military as a long term thing, that I was eventually wanting to be a police officer, she's like, well, do it. And I think that was one of the first stages where I started to see things a little bit differently, but I still held this horrible grudge, and she saw that.
It actually affected our marriage because if I ever needed to press a button, one thing I know about many liberals is that they feel very passionately about social justice issues or fill in the blank. But I would deliberately press her button sometimes if I was ever feeling frustrated with something completely unrelated because it it it felt like I got to take out my frustrations on the thing that I was still holding a grudge against.
And so here you are raised to hate liberals, and yet you married 1. And preprocess, what was the state of your marriage? Oh, it was in tatters. Yeah. I was, I was very close to I think I was gonna get it. I was almost on the fast track to a divorce. And in all fairness, I I think that I couldn't really have blamed my wife. There was a lot of times I was very emotionally unavailable because over time, the job had gotten to me. I had developed some very rigid thinking
about black and white, right and wrong. Issues were always black and white. There was never a gray area for me. It was actually hard to talk to me. I think I was a hard person to get along with. I really was. It was awful. And so you you're back in the process to which your boss had sent you to what happened? Like, take us back there again. The days moved now the 2nd day, the 3rd day, the 4th day.
What's beginning if if we were to have a window into your Hoffman process, what would we see for you, Dan? I was feeling a horrible sense of loss for the time I missed out with my wife. I missed her being that really bubbly, happy person when she was younger, and I was realizing that I'd never allowed myself to fully be in the moment with her and enjoy that relationship. I was also feeling very badly because some of the people that I was there with, such beautiful people,
were very similar to her in personality. And I, I think some of the things that attracted me to my wife were also the things that I was most critical of. The kindness and the compassion that she had for other people. She vicariously just sort of understands what some people are going through, and I and I realized how jealous I was of her. And sometimes we're most critical of the things that we that we admire but feel like we can't emulate, and that's how I was with her.
So what was it like to work with that? You know, in the process, we don't ignore the hard stuff. We go right towards it. So now you're working with jealousy and a bit of anger and rage, and you're not comfortable with vulnerability. It's not what you do. You've been taught that that's not who you are. That's not cool to show. So what happens for you as you begin to work with those things? I had always been taught before that and I hadn't it was not a a formal thing. It was not part of a
program. But, you know, to to express a feminine side during the nineties, you might probably remember that it seems society thought that having emotions like expressing grief, loss, crying, sadness, those are those are getting in touch with your feminine side. And I think that was harmful in that I realized that those are just human emotions. That's what my wife had been trying to talk to me about for at the time, we'd been married, 16 years. I hadn't really opened up to her the fully.
That that was a really hard thing to come to that I've been like that with her. Sounds humbling. Well, it was. It was. I'd set myself aside from mainstream society for so long, and I kept very few friends outside of work that I was now being forced to be alongside people that I would've completely passed by, like ships in the night, and now I have to kinda get along with them and be alongside
them. And the the part that bothered me the most is the way I I judged them in my mind when I first met them. And then here I find that they they gave me these well, there was at one point, you remember, where there was this powerful affirmation that I'm not a big mean son of a bitch, because that's how I've seen myself. How did that go down? Take us there. Without getting into too many specifics, because it's so long ago, we were in a circle, and there was some part of us that
we had to share. And I just remember shaking almost and and started to cry. And I said, well, I'm not a big mean son of a bitch. And there I think there was had to been at least 5 or 6 hands on my shoulder, and to have that kind of support. Wow. Wow. That and some of them were people that I had with a perceptual shorthand just written off when I first met them, and they were showing me kindness. I love that. Perceptual shorthand. You wrote them off, and yet here,
they're the ones showing you kindness. And you, you know, Dan, you let it in, so there's something you must have been craving it on a deeper level. Is that possible? I needed to be loved. And I had gone a long time without fully accepting my wife's love. I had gone a long time without accepting my parents' apology. They had actually made strident efforts to make up for what happened as a kid, the heavy very heavy handed discipline, the
the things that they had taught me. They tried to recant and say, this is this was not right, and I had just turned into more and more of an asshole in life. That's quite quite striking. I I don't remember that. Even in their effort to reconcile and apologize and make amends for the way in which you were raised, you didn't didn't infiltrate it. It what happened? My dad and I went fishing when I was 24, and we were sitting on the bank of the of the river. And I still remember it was a great
day. We caught we caught quite a few fish, and he said, Dan, I wanted to talk to you about something. I'm sorry for what happened. And he didn't just say, sorry. He said, I'm sorry for he went through specific incidents that happened, times that there had been beatings, things that he taught me that were wrong. He admitted that he taught me a lot of anger. And I took it in, and I felt better after, but I I didn't really forgive him. Not not truly. Dan, how did he come to that
act? How could what happened that he was able to do that with you? I think he could see what I'd become. He totally could see it. He'd he'd asked me to be careful. He he'd said, please don't please don't join the army full time, Dan. Just do it part time while you're in college. But please, you're a good guy. You're a nice guy. I don't want you to. He begged me not to. Because I was doing it, he could see
what I was using it for. I was using it to become something that I maybe wasn't emotionally equipped for, and he had a lot of wisdom through his years. He'd made his mistakes. I feel very badly now that there there that was more than an olive branch. That was an olive branch with dollars on it. Like, who gets that? And I I felt so guilty when I was going through the process that I felt like I threw that away. And so what what happened
post process with them? Did you get a chance to connect with them after? Yeah. I did. It was 3 weeks after the process, 3 or 4 weeks after the process, I drove out. I brought all my kids with me. My wife had a business trip. She had to clean up a few things because we were getting ready to move. And, man, I I just wanted to go there and love them. And I had some really close heart to hearts with them. I apologized to them for how I treated them in my adulthood.
I apologized to them for, talking down to them. The weird thing is I stayed in regular touch with them, so no one could ever take that away from me, but it was not always the kind of contact they would wanna have. It some of it was pretty negative I'd done over the years, so I had I had some work I had to do with them. And seeing my mother asleep on the couch, and my dad had her feet up on his lap, and
his head was leaned back. And I could see the TV glaring off of his glasses, and there was just this vulnerability there that I it's almost I think it's an overused word, but it was. They were vulnerable. They were they're old now. And I was so blessed at that moment. I still have them. They're still here. I can still try to make up for it, especially as they've gotten older, have made a lot of effort with me.
And it was the first time that I ever felt I could truly, in my heart, reciprocate that. Because this the pain didn't end once I grew up. I started inflicting upon them through their efforts to try to say, you know what? This wasn't right, and we're sorry we did that. So, the that fall of 2019 after Hoffman meant a lot to me with what I was able to achieve with them on that trip, and it was only a 4 day
trip. It was all we had. And describe that 80 acre farm where you grew up, where they still were. What would we see if we were on that land with you? You would see a little 3 bedroom house, very, very clean, but old. You would see a large garage beside it, and there's this feeling of age with it. It would just it's it's getting old now.
The trees are getting big. There's a big row of lodgepole pines out in front of it, and it leads into an old stable area where sometimes the hired hand will park his trailer, and he just helps them with odd jobs. My dad is kind of a fix it guy, so he's got a lot of projects on the go. There's some broken vehicles. There's a huge fire pit out front, and there's about 38 or 40 acres of, hayfield. And then there's a spruce bog in the
north end of the property. Whenever I pull up, my my big mama is just out there on the front porch. Even when I was angry or coming home without a good attitude, she'd still come on out, open the door, that that creaky old screen door, and, she was always happy to see me with a great big hug. I still have that when I come home. That's that's what I have in in that place. That's what that place means to me. So after the process, you take your 4 kids up for that, limited time you have with them.
You see them with the TV glaring in their glasses as they're asleep, and you have this moment of vulnerability as you see them older. What a beautiful scene. And then you sit down with them and and share. And how do they receive this Dan post process? What happens? They loved it. I could never tell them I went through the process because they have still certain very traditional beliefs. But I think that if I told them now what it was, they would be very grateful and happy.
But, man, it was well received. We had some times where we talked, we laughed, we cried together about some things that had happened, and we'd never been able to quite do it like that. We we waited for the kids to go to bed. I remember I asked my older daughter to babysit, and we went to our old place that we used to go for lunch. It was kinda cute because my dad's a
bit hearing impaired now. He misses some of the conversation, and, my mom will kinda almost translate for him a little bit and yell a bit louder. And then he'll say, don't yell at me. And so it was, but we still got the messages all across. We were in the car together just really enjoying each other's company, and there's this there was just this massive level of forgiveness that we could have with each other. What's it like to remember that moment? I live there. I live there.
By living there, part of my heart stays there because it's what me I'm on the phone with them now 4 times a week. I call them. They call me. My dad texts me some silly meme that he finds. My mom has learned to text a little bit better, and she does the email now. So that's good. Right? And I I I cherish them because there there's this finality that I realize I don't get to have them forever. Yeah. I get to have them for now. That's it. I don't know how long that'll be.
And so post process, now you're back in your life. What is happening with your life as a husband, as a father, and as an employee in the police force? How how do you know things are different for you? How do you know you've taken the process? The reactions of other people. I can tell that they that they react differently to me than how people used to react. And it's I think I was very blessed in having
a completely new work situation. I went to a plainclothes investigative section, completely new town. People at work would more describe me as being a gentle giant, a nice guy. I can tell by the way they smile at me, and I they'll just do me favors, like bring me a tea or they know I like the same Tim Hortons, extra large, 5 sweetener. Nobody doubts that in my workplace. They just bring me one. People weren't like that before.
I'm a nicer person to be around, and that's it's those little little acts of service now that seem to be more spontaneous. And I'm quiet. I don't say anything. I wait, and I I let people have their little reaction that they're going to have even if they're angry. And very often, I'm finding that gives me the time to sort out what I have instead of an immediate anger response. Now it's how do I feel? And, usually, it's that I wanna react with some type of empathy or compassion.
And the only way I can do that is the classical count to 10 and see how we feel at the end of that. My kids asked mom, what's wrong with dad? Why is he being so nice? Because after a couple months there, the kids got spoiled really badly. I don't know if that was the right thing, but, I mean, I had some real guilt to work through. I used to talk down to my kids a lot. I used to talk down to them pretty badly.
The 90% things I was doing right don't really count, I think, when they remember the 10% that is wrong. And I needed to try to fix some of those things, and I I left it open. The door was open to them. You know, I did a few things wrong, kids. I used to talk, but I'm pretty pretty rough with you. If you ever feel like you need to talk about it, you do. And, actually, they did. They started bringing up their grievances. They took you up on it? Absolutely. They did. I was glad they did.
Do you remember a moment when one of them spoke up? Was it your oldest? Yeah. Old habits die hard. And that same old crass, Dan, came back at one point, and I was talking to my oldest son. You hadn't cleaned up the front room. And, you know, I dropped a couple of f bombs and told him not to be such a slob, and it was pretty rough. Like, you don't talk to your kids that way. You no one should do that. And, my daughter actually said right out, dad, I'm calling you
on your shit today. You can't talk to us that way. I looked at her, and I couldn't argue. It's like I just promised them I'd be different a year earlier. Why would I stop now? And I wasn't gonna argue with her. I said, you know what? You're right. I went and gave my son a hug, admitted that I wasn't right. But I said, you still have to clean it up, but I won't talk to you like that
again. I'm sorry. You know, Dan, one of the things I remember vividly on that first day was your eyes and how big they were and how it just felt like they were glaring out at the world. And I saw a photo recently of you with your kids and you just looked so soft and gentle compared to that kind of armored up exterior with those eyes. What's it like to be, more gentle with yourself and those around you? It doesn't feel different to do it. It feels different to how the world reacts
to that behavior. It doesn't feel different to be different. It feels different than how the world reacts to being different. So maybe this is more of of who you really are, and so that's why it feels so authentic. And what feels different is that the world is seeing it, responding more positively, appreciating it, and letting you know that through their words and behavior.
Yes. It is. If you follow the timelines, it actually makes sense because everything that I seem to have been doing in my young adulthood was to be a lot tougher and thinking that's the way the world is. So, you know, we're gonna give the world back what it's been giving me. And I really missed a lot of blessings that way. I've missed a lot of friendships. I missed a lot of opportunities to have closeness in my life that I needed. I really did.
And that pit bull image, why does that resonate with you of who you used to be? As you know, they're a misunderstood breed. People are judged by the look. I think they I think it is a very accurate analogy. They're usually very nice dogs. They're very protective. Most of them are. And I feel I feel in some ways
sort of kindred spirit with them. I'll never have that kind of dog, but it's in terms of personality wise, it seems that's that would be the if I was a dog person, I would I'd probably have that as a dog. If you overlay your process and some of the tools and practices or concepts, what sticks with you as you work to, be that authentic person that is more gentle rather than the armored up pit bull that maybe you were raised into being? What do you remember? I think I'm taking it all in.
I'm not going to regret anymore because in in in being the way I was, I did gain a very valuable tool. Sometimes I think in our modern world, we're taught to be nice all the time as a mandatory default. You're always gonna be nice to everyone. Well, I don't have to be. I can turn it off really quick. If if somebody wants, that's a tool. That's a valuable tool, but it's a tool that makes my kindness very authentic. I actually wanna be that way. I strive to be that way.
I need to be that way, but I don't have to. And I think that's the where the, the genuine power is is that I'm gonna be kind to people because I want to. I don't feel like I have to. It's not coming from a disingenuous place. And you have choice around it so that if necessary, you can set boundaries and show up differently depending on the situation. The important piece is that you're not subjected to a certain way of behaving. You do have choice. Absolutely. I think I used an analogy before.
I'm a navigator. You're a grappler. I I I'm a navigator. I used to be very rigid. I used to go by true north all the time. But as we all know with navigation, you set the declination of your compass to the map you're using for the year that it is in order to navigate properly because that magnetic north is just like life. It it's dynamic. It moves every year. Things change. So my my moral compass is still there. It's still the same compass I'm using.
I think what the Hoffman process allowed me to do is calibrate that declination properly so that it works properly so I can get from point a to point b. Navigating around a conflict is actually some of the best thing one of the best things you can do. You can still get to your destination without taking on somebody who's stuck in a in a bad pattern. That's that's how I've learned that the best way to win a fight is to not be there sometimes.
And as you're heading back from work to your family and you turn on your favorite tune, what what are you playing? Usually, something country, but I I really like Tim McGraw. Humble and Kind is my one of his new songs. I think it came out about a year ago, but I love it. I think I actually sent you a YouTube video on that a while back. You did? I love how the song in the in the in the first verse, he said, you know there's a light that glows by the front door.
Don't forget the keys under the doormat. And I think about my mom and dad. My mom had a saying. She said, I don't mean to love you with my regret, but it's true love. Like, she felt bad when she was apologizing to me. And my mom leaves the backdoor light on. And in her mind, I she she needs to do that because somebody might come home at night. And they do leave the keys. I won't tell you where they do it. It's not
under the mat. But they do leave keys for any for any of us kids if we decide to come home and we don't have our keys handy. I just think of my mom and dad with that song. It it's such a powerful song for me, and I love that the simple lessons in life that we need. Hold the door open. Say please. Say thank you. Don't steal. Don't cheat. Don't lie. And every verse of the song ends with, you know, always stay humble and kind. What a beautiful song.
And her wisdom of I don't mean to love you with my regrets. When people love each other with their regret a little bit, it's such a powerful love. It's actually people would think that was morbid, but it's not. It actually has to do with that they don't forget what happened, that used that that per that person still means something so much to them. And I'll I'll never forget that because in some ways, that's how I've loved my own children. I don't mean to be the way I
am. So in some ways, I love with love them with my regret, and it's not a bad thing. It's just a reminder that I have to do better. It's not a bad thing to be reminded of that. Dan, you have taken us to your process, and then while the things that happened pre process all the way back to your childhood and being raised in Alberta. And then all the way up to now, what's it been like to take a survey of your life and interlace the Hoffman process throughout that? What do you notice?
I know that I've done many things good, and I know I've done them right. But I've also done things that I regret. I took on certain attitudes because of what life was presenting, especially with my work. I let things get to me. For my first about three and a half to four years as a police officer, I I was very invested in it emotionally.
And there were some things that happened that shook my foundations that the vestigial remnants of this really nice Dan were getting put in compartments and locked. I had a friend that committed suicide, a very a really good friend. I used to work out with him. You know, he was gonna come fishing with me and some guys at work, and I really think I failed him. I failed him because I was too involved with my life that I didn't pick up on things he was saying.
You know, he tried to give me all of his, Popeye's, supplements. He gave me all his workout, books, and I wonder why he's giving me these things. And he was supposed to come hunting with me that fall of that year, and I had offered to give him one of my good hunting rifles for a in trade for a pistol that he owed. Well, I got a call from work to come in. They said, your friend just shot himself, and he left you his pistol and his, suicide note.
And I ended up becoming the exhibit custodian on that file. And there there was this big part of me that just ground to a halt at that time. I don't I don't know what to tell you about it other than it was incremental. The pistol that you gave him was the one he used to kill himself? No. The pistol that I had offered to buy off of him or give him a hunting rifle. That's why he left it for me in his suicide note. He was well liked. Like, we all knew him in the community. He was a super nice guy.
You know, he worked as a security guard, and, he helped run the the gym in town with his mom. So how does one navigate forgiveness and self compassion for those regrets. You've talked about regret a lot during this, conversation. So what do you do with your regrets and how long is the statute of limitations around holding ourselves accountable for something? What what do you notice that forgiveness steps in and has to say about this regret? I think that regret is is not always a bad thing.
There's no such thing as a positive regret. But if if regret is an evolving emotion that I have towards these incidents, it it's a form of suffering. How how do I engage that suffering? If I can engage my suffering, and this is what I've learned since the Hoffman process, when I engage my suffering in a way that allows me to enjoy the good things in life, then I get to grow with it.
Jesus is a central figure in my life, and one of the things he spoke about about people is that some of people's consciences are seared with a hot iron. And having regret means I have a conscience. And as long as I don't stay stuck there, I can still always work with it. I like the fact that I regret some of the things that I've done. It stands as a mile milestone that, k, this we don't go back here now.
So it's almost like it's an active, alive, regret that dialogues with your present self moment to moment to inform you about how to be in the present. You nailed it right on the head. Absolutely. Wow. I'm I'm inspired by your use of regret for your own deeper presence in your life. For me, it's a, it's a verb. It grows. It it actually eventually changes. Re regret and reconciliation are two sides of the same coin. Eventually, if I work through my regret, I can reconcile.
And that's that's not I've read that anywhere, but that's how I feel about well, that when I remember my friend, there was another incident that happened that, you know, I I ended up preventing a suicide. I saw the signs. I didn't ignore them. And I got I took a call from somebody that I really had a lot of time for at at early hours this morning, and I I made some suggestions about someone he could go and talk with, and he didn't do it. And I I still I still stay in touch with him.
So how what I do with my regret is is if I can grow from it, eventually it becomes reconciliation. So you you in that moment, you took the regret of your friend's suicide and applied the learnings, the lessons, and showed up differently in this next situation and averted it. I've talked to suicide survivors before, and meanwhile we're on that topic of regret. Do you most of them are absolutely grateful that they are alive even if they have life changing injuries?
Most of them are. I remember there was one guy who had shot himself in the head, and he was a nice guy. He was a regular client of ours. He was in and out of jail. And, you know, I I I talked with him how he was doing, and he I could tell he was having some issues speaking to me, but he was still making it by. And and I had to drive him to the correctional center after court. There was no one to do be available to do it, and we had a awesome
talk. We actually stopped for slurpees, or I don't know what you call them in the States, slushies. I don't but we stopped, and we had that and a hot dog on the way to take him to jail after being sentenced. I asked him, we're like, how are you doing health wise? And and he he said, I'm doing good. Like, he asked, are you asking about my shooting myself? And I'm like, to be honest, yeah, man. I am. And, he said, I'm doing good. I'm glad I I'm glad I tried, and
I'm glad I survived. He actually said that. I'm glad I tried, and I'm glad I survived. He actually said that. I'm glad I tried, and I'm glad I survived. He actually said that. I'm glad I actually said that. I'm glad I tried, and I'm glad I survived. I'm like, what are you talking about? And he said, I'm so happy I lived. Yeah. He was going to jail for a few months, but it it it was like he he looked at the world so differently after. And I kinda had to respect him for that.
Like, he just he gave me a new perspective on what it is to value your own life. So that was very powerful for me to to hear that from somebody who had who had tried and who I felt pretty bad for, and then changed my perspective completely. Dan, how's your health doing? I know you've had some health challenges lately. What's happening with that? Well, I have a condition called hemochromatosis. I absorb far too much iron into my blood, and that has actually damaged my liver.
And that's what I'm going in weekly now, a couple times a week for treatment for. I'm, currently just went off of work. I'll be off of work for a while while I get, treatment for my liver. I actually, you know, don't even know what to think about it other than we had a Tim McGraw song for that. It seems he got a song for everything, doesn't he? I don't mean live like you were dying was a song. I'm not dying. I'm gonna get better, but eventually what I have is gonna kill me.
And it is known to shorten life expectancy. The one part of the song that actually ties in with this process that I went through, and he I love the lyrics. He said, and I loved deeper, and I spoke sweeter. I gave the forgiveness. I had been denying. I loved deeper. I spoke sweeter, and I gave the forgiveness I had been denying. And then later on in the song, he said I was finally the husband that most of the time I wasn't, and I became the friend a friend would like to have.
Wow. So I had my license pulled as well because as a result of my medical condition, because sometimes it affects my ability to even stay awake. I thought, you know, that song, I heard that a long time ago when it came out, but, man, is it ever applicable now? And when I get better, I'm gonna be eventually back at work. I'll be getting my license back. And I just I just know that I'm here on borrowed time, so you know what? I'm gonna act like it, or I'm gonna live like I'm dying.
Wow. Beautiful. Dan, I'm so grateful for this conversation. Me too. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time and, for your heart throughout this dialogue. Del, thank you for talking to me. It's, it's almost like we're just talking on the phone right now. I've been very comfortable talking to you. Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza Ingrassi. I'm the CEO and president of Hoffman Institute Foundation.
And I'm Raz Ingrassi, Hoffman teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute Foundation. Our mission is to provide people greater access to the wisdom and power of love. In themselves, in each other, and in the world. To find out more, please go to hopkininstitute.org.