- Welcome to Love's Everyday Radius, a podcast brought to you by the Hoffman Institute. My name is Drew Horning and on this podcast we catch up with graduates for conversations around how their internal work in the process is informing their life outside the process. How their spirit and how their love is living in the world around them, their everyday radius. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Hoffman Podcast. My name is Drew Horning, and on the show today we have Ebony k Williams. Welcome.
- Thank you, drew. I'm very excited to speak with you. - I am so glad you are joining us. Ebony is now on the Real Housewives of New York City. She was raised in Louisiana and went to the University of North Carolina and then went to law school, became a lawyer, became a host on Fox News, and has done many other things, including the Hoffman process. What else would you add to that - , that's, that's extensive.
Uh, I have also published a, a book that I love called Pretty Powerful Appearance, substance and Success, which is all about kind of embracing the duality of manifesting, I guess, leveraging really aesthetic appearance, presentation to professional success and development.
And, you know, I, I also, oh, the favorite thing that I do right now is produce and how my podcast on iHeart media's the Black Effect Network, which is holding court with Ebony k Williams, which is all about the intersection of law and pop culture really. So, uh, we unpack everything that you see in, in the headline space, that, that touches law and justice and social justice and court and lawsuits. And we unpack it from a cultural lens and a legal one.
- You, you do that so well, you cross those bridges. You add at one point that you're just a natural disruptor. You're comfortable as a disruptor. What is it like to be a disruptor?
- It can be re really rewarding Drew in the sense that I, I just got back from Tulsa, Oklahoma, uh, Greenwood District in particular, which was the centennial commemoration of the Tulsa Race massacre, which was, um, a, a sadly little known part of American history where the most, uh, prosperous, uh, black community in the United States at the time. This is 1921. And it was banks and schools and hospitals and law firms and beauty salons and restaurants and bars and all these things.
And it was just considerable black wealth and prosperity at the time. And it was burned to the ground, um, by a very angry, visceral white mob. Uh, and, uh, it was just a tragic thing. And I spoke with descendants and all these great people, but the point of the story is this, one of the tours we went on, our tour guide, Ms. Vanessa, was talking about the disruption of mythology, right. As it relates to our history as a nation.
And, you know, we're really grappling with this as a country right now. Right. And I asked her about disruption, 'cause that's what I do, right? I was like, you know, how are people receiving the disruption of this, this, this, thinking about who we are? And being confronted with a disruption to that thinking. She said, Ebony, let me tell you something. Disruption is the most necessary part of life, and if you don't believe me, think about how a child is born.
The placenta must break to enter into the world. So when I say disruption is germane, essential, and necessary for life, it's literally that. So I thought that was a profound perception of, of disruption. Yeah. I was like, oh my gosh, I'll never think of it the same. Right? Like, it's, it's essential. How, how is it, it's, it's rewarding in the sense that, you know, it's, it's an essential part of, of all of our shared humanity. Oh, but it's heavy, right?
Because people innately don't like change and don't really, aren't comfortable around disruption and aren't really inviting of something that feels different or can even feel like an attack, right. On, um, norms and, and expectations that, that are long seated. So, um, rewarding work, heavy work is my answer to that. - Rewarding work, heavy work.
And, you know, as a teacher, I, I've often felt like that is the crux of what we help students do, which is become more comfortable, more adept at change, this thing that is the one inconstant. We give them skills and tools and the kind of agility to navigate the change that will always be present in their life and not to be so reactive or defensive. So I imagine that it requires lots of self care to fill up your own cup as you recharge from the challenges of that heavy work.
- Well, we're having a conversation at an extremely, um, valuable time for me, drew, I actually just, uh, real Housewives of New York airs Tuesday nights at 9:00 PM Eastern on Bravo. And the particular, this week's episode that just aired and next week's episode, uh, are particularly charged and particularly heavy and deal with issues of race and, and class and, you know, just really tough stuff.
And so in advance of it, I I, I went on Instagram live and I, I told my followers I was gonna pull a Naomi Osaka and essentially just take a two week social media hiatus for that self care. You speak of social media can be a wonderful thing in all the obvious ways of connection and communication, but it can also be pretty toxic and, and people can use it, uh, and weaponize it to attack and harm and, and destroy, really. And I just couldn't avail myself to it, uh, in this moment, drew.
So having this conversation with you, which always feels like a renewal of the Hoffman Energy, I was very much looking forward to, and it just happens to be during this self-care hiatus I'm taking from social media. So it's, it's quite timely, - Right? And so Naomi Osaka took a, uh, a mental health break and I was just reading about that she was, was attacked for that as if something was wrong.
And, and people had to come to her defense and say, wait a minute, this is, this is a, a woman taking care of herself. Don't make it more than it's - Well, and that's disruptive to right, our norms, which say we put our jobs, we put our companies, we put our organizations, we put our financial interest, right? We put certainly other people all in front of our own personal piece. That's the norm. So any disruption of that drew feels uneasy for people.
And when people feel uncomfortable, they can tend to be, uh, attacking and abrasive in response to that. So I think that's what we're seeing with Naomi. I think I've experienced a bit of that myself. And you know, it's a really, I think it's a radical act to choose oneself in the face of the, the, the standard expectation, - Right? A radical act. I've often felt like the doing the process as a radical act, living out your spirit as a result of the process is a radical act.
You can be swimming upstream as many people don't feel connected to their spirit and maybe live from patterns. So will you, will you take us to your process? Why did you sign up for the Hoffman process? - So, I'd never heard of Hoffman. I was at the time in a relationship with a man who was a Hoffman graduate himself. He had gone through his process 10 years prior, right after his, or in the midst of his divorce. So here we are in this relationship.
We'd been in this relationship for, I don't know, at this point, two and a half, maybe years. And it was the time to decide are we gonna try to build a life together or not? And separate and apart from, you know, his challenges in the relationship, I had my own, and I'll speak to those. And it was very clear to me that if I wanted to have the kind of relationship I wanted with this man, or frankly any other partner, right? And I, I had clarity by this point.
I think I was 36, something like that, maybe 5 35, whatever it was, i, I, I was at a point in my life drew where for the first time in my life I was really clear that I wanted a partner. I wanted to share and build my life with another individual. And I actually was clear that I wanted to be a mom. And that was for the first time in my life, I had clarity around that.
But I also knew enough to know, and I could feel that if I kept going the way I was going, I wasn't gonna reach the goals in a way that I would be proud of. That the kind of mother and the kind of wife and partner that I was gonna be was not gonna be consistent with my personal standards of excellence. I could just tell it was just too much trauma, too much pain, too much uneasiness in, in deep personal relationship, too much, um, anxiety, all the things.
So he told me about Hoffman and he told me it's really intense. And it, it's funny, the Hoffman, I go to the website and the Hoffman slogan, I believe is something like, when you're serious about change. And I was for the first time in my entire life, extremely serious about change because I decided I wanted those aspects of family, which is really what I'm talking about here. I wanted family more than I was afraid of doing the work that it would take to get there.
So yeah, so I decided to do it, didn't really ask a lot of questions about it. I know, like people are very curious. It's a pretty secretive process until you start your own. I didn't even have those questions. I didn't give a damn really. I just knew I was serious about change. Change was required for me to embark upon the kind of family of creation.
Oh, that's the thing. We had been my then partner and I had been in couples counseling with a fantastic cognitive behavioral therapist and all these things. And you know, I don't come from as we'll talk about in a minute, a very robust family of origin. And these are terms I've just learned recently. Family of origin was a born into it. But the good news is I had a lot of ability to create, uh, a family of creation.
And so that was very exciting for me to hear from my therapist, but I didn't have the tools to do it. And that was becoming clearer and clearer in the, in the couples and my individual therapy. And so Hoffman was really an opportunity, I was extremely enthusiastic about availing myself to, because I was excited to go about the change necessary to really empower myself to build a family of creation in a way that I really wanted to indulge in - A family of origin versus a family of creation.
I love that distinction. And, and going back to why you, why you joined, I loved how you said that I wanted to create a family more than I was afraid of the fear of doing that work. How did you phrase that? Yeah, - It was basically that I wanted, I knew my, my desire drew to have family and connection and build a legacy as a parent and, and be a really good spouse at a, like, I call it a starter marriage in my late twenties.
It was like a one year done thing and it was, I was just a terrible wife. I was so selfish. I was so self-centered. I was so immature in my understanding of partnership at the time. So I'm really looking forward to this do-over right? Where I really get to show up, um, for somebody else, you know, and all I wanted those things so badly, but had at least enough self-awareness to know that if I keep going the way I'm going, right in my current relationship, I ain't gonna get there.
Basically. I ain't gonna get there and I wanna get there, so I gotta change. That was it. - So take us to your process. You show up. What was it like for you the first couple of days? ? - Oh man. Uh, I was fighting the, uh, the smallest parts of the process. And without giving too much away, like when you check in, in addition to, of course, you know, you're told on the front end you'll be giving up your devices and things.
And like most people of this moment that even felt like, wait, even my Kindle, right? Like, I really was like trying to nega, I'm a lawyer by trade, so I was trying to like actively campaign for keeping my Kindle didn't work, wasn't successful. And then, you know, there's, there's even just a, a a, the issue of when you get your materials and you find out how you'll be referred to throughout your process process, I protested that I was so uncomfortable.
Like I had a vis an unexpected, visceral reaction to the very first assignment, if you will. You know, the very first ask to submit to just what I would be referred to throughout my process. And literally had a one-on-one with my teacher about it and real, and that's when she really just kind of looked me in the eye drew and was like, Ebony, okay, like, you gotta get in this thing, or you're gonna miss it, or you're gonna miss the whole thing.
So I'm gonna ask you to trust me and trust this process and really trust yourself and just really lean into this thing so you can get out of it what you came to get. So that was my start. . So yeah, - . And then, and then take us to, uh, as the week moves forward, what happened for you? How did you know things were shifting a moment in time in your week? - Yeah, you know, really that first conversation with my teacher, am I allowed to reveal who my teacher was? - Sure, of course. Yeah.
- Okay. My teacher is the queen. Regina, Regina is, you know, and I have to say before I, before I knew she was gonna be my teacher, we're having breakfast really during chicken, I suppose. And I see this woman and she really just looks kind of ethereal to me. And now because I've been through the process, I understand what that is. That is her spirit, goddess energy, you know, manifesting.
But before I had the, the language around that, I just knew she looked regal and magical and just ethereal. And I just was like, I don't know who that woman is, but I want to know her. And it turns out she ended up being my teacher and she was the one that like, I just recounted really kind of asked me to make a real commitment on the front end of the process. You know, when I was showing up with basically hostility and pushback at the very first thing the process asked of me.
And she was like, baby girl, , it ain't gonna, it ain't gonna go like that because if, if it's gonna be this the whole week, you're gonna miss it. And I know you didn't come here to miss it, so you really need to, to surrender to this. And after that, I don't know if it's the spirit of Regina, I don't know if it was again, me conquering that fear of change and realizing I really want to get in a position to have this family of creation drew. Like, it's so important to me.
So I better submit here to this change process. And after that conversation with Regina, I just soaked it all up, you know, like at graduation she ended up saying, she was like, I kind of have, have rarely seen a student just eat at the table of what this process offers the way you did. And it's because I didn't wanna miss it. So yeah. - Uh, that is so powerful and beautiful and a testament to hanging in there. It's, it's part of the, the value of seven days, right?
Because it's an in out, hang in there, can I do this? Jump in fully? And you have a long enough time period, uh, to where you can get the opportunity to keep going. And so I I I have a question for you that embodiment that you saw in Regina. Uh, one of the things we say at the process is that if you see it outside of you, it must already exist inside of you.
So Ebony, as you, as you go through your life and as you're on television and a public figure and doing the work you do, can you feel your spirit post process? What is the connection to your spirit? - Yeah, so I was someone pre-process who was like the, the master over intelligence machine, like, you know what I mean? Like I over intellectualized everything. And there's elements that the process affords you to lean into, uh, particularly, you know, your inner child.
I hadn't talked to or thought about. My inner child drew for probably 20 plus years before my process. And I will say really happily is the right word to use that after my process, she actually gets to come out and play.
Now, even in the work that I do, like I'll say that people who are meeting me for the first time on Real Housewives of New York, or people that are meeting me for the first time on my podcast holding court with Ebony, Kate Williams, what they're seeing in kind of the relaxed and unfiltered way in which now I approach just even the content that I create, right? Because I've been in the business of creating content as a news anchor, as a journalist, as a radio host for over 10 years.
And a lot of people drew are just like, you know, you've always been incredibly good at what you do, but I had no idea all of this, right? All of this extra was there by way of energy and personality and levity, really, like people are telling me for the first time, I didn't even know you were funny. I didn't know that . And it's because that inner child in me gets to play.
Now I realize that that's a part of me because the process gives permission for the overly employed intelligence to take a break, take some time off. She's always gonna have a job. That's the nature of what I do. My intelligence will always be employed, but my, my child, my levity, my desire for play and enjoyment also has a space in my life and a space in my spirit. And it's been really nice to reengage and connect with her.
She's fun. She's fun - , I can feel her now in, as you speak about her, there's a, a fondness and appreciation for what she brings to your life. You know, it's interesting because part of what patterns do is that they fundamentally sort of suck us dry of energy. And what spirit does is it infuses us with this kind of energy, this childlike energy, and you don't have to strategize or get pragmatic about all the specific ways you need to connect with spirit.
It's a, it's a less is more surrendering to spirit kind of thing. Do you feel the increased energy, uh, post-process that your spirit and your inner child, uh, offer you - 1000%? So I recently, you know, again, going back to the, the airing of Real house Miles of New York, my first time on any type of reality show platform, and it's, it's, you know, as anyone could expect, it's just, it's a, you, there's, there is no preparation for it, right?
It's just, you know, unlike anything, even as somebody who had already been in television as a broadcaster, this is a entirely different beast. Um, and so it, I was going through and, and still frankly, going through a really challenging experience. And I was having a conversation with network executives so that they could be aware, uh, as they should be, of the experiences that I am being challenged by as a, as an individual and as you know, an employee, I guess, of sorts.
And when I, I had this meeting with them and it was, you know, in this covid era on Zoom, and I'm meeting these high-end executives for the first time, I realized that I had put my hand over my heart as I was speaking to them because I had such awareness that I really wanted these high powered, buttoned up important people to not see me as I often initially present, which is also buttoned up, professional attorney businesswoman, da dah da da. I really wanted them to see my spirit.
I wanted them to hear my pain, my fear, my anxiety, my broken heartedness around what I had been experiencing. And in order for me to get them to connect with that spirit, her, I needed to negotiate my, um, hyper intelligence aspect and the litigator and have her take a seat so that my spirit could speak to these people. And, and my me, my default mechanism for that is the, it's the handover heart.
'cause it really just allows me to speak, like you said, get out of my own way, stop thinking about the right words and verbiage and phrasing, and just speak to how I am feeling so they can feel it too. I just felt so appreciative of that tool. Um, um, that of course I, I got for my process and I use it often - Actually. I, uh, love how you referenced the litigator in you and, and the power of just a simple tool of hand over heart in the moment so that they could see your spirit.
So Ebony, um, for, for the uninitiated, what, what is this Real Housewives thing? Will you, will you explain this phenomenon and what it is? - Yeah. Uh, the best way to explain it, j is it's, it's a sociological almost experiment, you know, in many ways, um, and experience where you take women of a particular, in theory, women that enjoy some level of affluence, some level of influence as well, and some level of social connection to one another.
And you put them in a group and you walk around and you film us in, in the most mundane and high stakes scenarios. So it's something as, and, and, and we filmed for four months, uh, three to four months. And innately it's a show about friendship. It's a show about conflict, and it's a show about resolution. But what ends up happening on my season, because I am the first black woman to join my cast and Real Housewives of New York, has been a thing for 13 years.
And of course the irony there is New York City should be the most diverse city in the world, and there's never been, you know, a black woman or really much by way of women of color period ever on the show. Um, so what's happening my this season is you're getting those elements of affluence and, you know, the different ways in which we've each come into our affluence. Some of us have married into it, some of us were born into it, and some of us have kind of, I guess done it.
I don't know if I'd say I was gonna say the old fashioned way, but maybe it's not the old fashioned way. Maybe it's the modern way of just kind of rolling up our sleeves and just doing the work, right, to create these, these lives that we wanna live. But then you have the very added and real element of I'm bringing a black experience to these conversations and to these interactions.
Um, and as you can only imagine in this moment of a pandemic, in this moment of what I feel to be the, the greatest opportunity for racial reconciliation that our generation has experienced, it's a lot. And it's a, and it's changed and it's disruption, and it's being met with various levels of embrace or rejection or flat out hostility.
So that's, that's pretty much roney right now, - You know, as a, as a white male who was also an American history major in college, I did not know, was not taught this massacre in Greenwood in Oklahoma City. I was not never aware of it. And we, we are, as you mentioned, at the hundred year anniversary of that massacre formerly called Race Riots. And even the naming is something that tends to slough off the impact. And so I guess the nature of our relationship to discomfort.
And so I'm, I'm aware that you said on the show, there's never been a black woman in one of the most diverse cities in the world. And you know, the thing about media is we believe what we see, and if we don't see black and brown people and women, then, then we tend to have a more narcissistic view of the world. And so I guess I just acknowledge the importance of what you're doing and am am grateful for the spirit of disruption that lives inside of you so powerfully and beautifully.
- Oh, thank you for that, drew. And I receive every bit of that. And it, it's really the answer to the question, of course I'm getting all the time now, which is why would a successful attorney and journalist do a crazy thing like join the Real Housewives franchise? Um, and you just articulated it perfectly. That's, that's my why. It's because it's rep, I can't overstate the importance of representation, right?
You know, like we, we, I think it's something that for, for those that are, are fortunate enough to not be a part of extremely marginalized communities, something that you can take for granted when you see yourself everywhere, when you see yourself in television, you see yourself in film, you see yourself in magazine publications, you see yourself on billboards. It's something you take for granted.
And when you see yourself in all spaces throughout your life, there's never a question of, well, can I be president? Or can I be a CEO or can I be whatever? Because you see yourself all the time. For those of us that don't see ourselves in spaces, it's really difficult to be what you'd never ever see.
And that's really why I transitioned from practicing law in a courtroom every day, which was extremely rewarding on many levels, but I just really felt it was in my spirit to take that to the next level by way of representation. I wanted amplification, which is the beauty of, of black women and black excellence. And I, I was blessed to see it every day, but I knew enough to know that people don't see this every day.
Drew, there are pockets of our own country that don't know any black women, aren't friends with them, didn't go to school with any, don't see any at work. Or if they do, it's an extremely narrow subset, right?
So by virtue of me, and this is why I started the work first, uh, in ca in news and in Cable news, being a black woman on television and in radio, talking about politics, talking about geo international politics, talking about social justice, talking about just basics around the Supreme Court that had had importance, right? And I think people can wrap their head around that one pretty clearly.
Now, this new work that I'm doing, by way of Real Housewives of New York, it's really the same, the same goal though, which is to humanize and make relevant and make just very real a relationship that there are gonna be people in our country and actually globally. 'cause I already am getting the, the, the dms and messages from people in Australia and the UK and in all different parts of the world, which is really cool that say, it's really cool to meet you Ebony.
You know what I mean? It's really cool to see, see your take on the world and get to know your humor and get to know your thought process and get to see how you handle engagement with, with these women on this show. So in a very real way, and, and this is like not to be dramatic or use hyperbole, I get to introduce some people to the, to an experience. 'cause it's never singular, but an experience of what it must be like to, to be in relationship with a black woman.
And I think that's extremely important work because, you know, we can't really be serious about shared community with one another. Drew, if we are not serious about doing the work of going past most all of our knee jerk norms, which are very, uh, segregated racially, culturally, socioeconomically, all the things, right? So it takes a conscious effort to get out of that. And I'm included in that. That's why you hear me say about Housewives of New York.
Gosh, I don't normally hang out with large groups of white women like this because I don't, because like most people in our, in our world, I, I socialize in a, in a culturally, racially, socioeconomically, homogenous group. And so it takes that consciousness to get out of that, to avail myself to what end up being some pretty cool relationships. - It is all too easy, isn't it, to isolate and only be around those people that we are familiar with.
And I think this is, this is where the power of the Hoffman process is, has such applicability where if we can be friends with discomfort, if discomfort can in fact become the norm, then we can move into spaces and places that are beyond just the mirror of what we see in the world. Is do you see the internal relationship to the external relationship there? - Yeah. So on just a real, a real simple example of that, right?
Uh, Meyer Hoffman process, like most processes are not particularly culturally diverse. You know, I was the only black person in my process, and there was one young woman of Asian descent, and it just so happened that we were in the same small group, and it just so happened that we remained extremely close after our process. And we talk frequently myself, her, and another young lady in our process.
And we've really just developed a really beautiful, cool sisterhood where we check in and we go to lunch when we're in the same city. And it's really dope because of her cultural, uh, understanding as an Asian woman of Chinese descent, in particular during the recent disgusting, heartbreaking attacks on the Asian community, right? That have happened in our country as of recent. I'm able to pick up the phone Drew, and I'm able to talk to my sister about what this is like for her and her people.
And more importantly, I guess not more importantly, but certainly more to my spirit of activism. What can I do? What is needed of me by my sister to show up for her and make her feel more loved, more safe, and more seen in this moment of anti-Asian hate and terror? I had such clarity and a acute awareness of the fact that I am literally able to show up in this moment as a better ally and co-conspirator against the horror that is this anti-Asian movement.
It's terrible. And I get to show up better, literally because of Hoffman, like very directly, like the dots are not even hard to connect because of Hoffman, because of the intensity and intimacy of the experience I shared with my sister, who I only met through my process. I am a better human being in this moment. That's how direct the correlation is. - And how does it relate to her? - I'm certain that she would say the same, right?
That because of her deeply intimate relationship with me as her sister, she gets to show up differently, stronger, more deeply connected in this moment of Black Lives mattering more than they ever have in our world because of her connection to me through our process. So it, it is such a fully circular, uh, experience and moment of gratitude.
And again, going back to what I was just talking about because my social circle always reflect, like most of our social circles doesn't fully reflect the diversity that we all would imagine and dream of. I am so especially grateful to my process at Hoffman, to my small group, to the ability to, to forge the deepest connections in one week you could ever imagine. Because of the, I think the intensity of the work, I think just the na nature of the process.
You leave a week of connecting with people and you feel like you've, 'cause you've, you have, you've buried your soul to these people and they have to you. So I can't even try to, uh, to articulate the depth of what the intimacy of the relationship is.
So to have that deeply intimate relationship with people that, but for this process, I, I certainly would've never known, um, shows up in ways like that example, you know, where now I am able to go out into this world and in my community and be a better ally, a co-conspirator, in fact against harm and, and hate towards people that, that exist outside of my own community. And I think I'm very grateful to Hoffman for that, and I'm grateful to my classmates and my, my process mates for that.
- Ebony, what do you feel right now? - I feel as I put my hand over my heart, I feel, I guess excited is the word I feel right now.
I feel excited because even in the wake of a lot of heaviness and questions about where we are, society and a nation, and even me personally right now because I'm on this social media break, talking to you and unpacking some of these really cool aspects of my Hoffman process and identifying every day I realize something new I take from my process and how I apply it in everyday life. I feel excited to know that there's a lot of incredible possibility, uh, in front of me, in front of us.
And then also just, it's been a really, I'm excited to be reminded of some really positive, wonderful things that have happened in the past year. You know, I think we're hearing a lot about the darkness and the heaviness and the costs, the cost of the, the past year in this pandemic. And it is indeed heavy. But I guess having this conversation with you and spotlighting some really amazing things that have also happened in this past year makes me really excited about what is to come.
- I have throughout this conversation have had goosebumps on my arms. And when I took my process, one of the things I got from it was a deeper connection to the sensations in my body. My body hadn't always been an active part of my quadri and goosebumps were one of the things I got from my process that, oh wow, this part of me lives in can express itself and I can be moved and know I am inspired and moved by goosebumps.
And so I'm just aware that throughout this conversation I've had so many goosebumps come up. Ebony, I am also deeply grateful for your heart as you have shared this conversation and for the work you're doing in the world. - Hmm. Thank you, I Dear Drew, I appreciate that so much and I'm, I'm honored. I'm honored to be in conversation with you.
I'm honored to be a graduate of Hoffman in the process and truly hope to show up in the world carrying so many of the gifts, you know, that I got in that week. And so far beyond it. And I often say this probably right alongside law school. It is the best investment, um, of time and resource that I made in myself. It really is. It, it changed me. It changed the way I go out into the world. It changed the way I see myself.
I mean, so much of the process, as you know, is forgiving parents or, or other, you know, figures from childhood. But I got to do something that I had never need, knew I needed to do, which was forgive myself for actions, for thoughts, for feelings, and I have just gave, walked away. Um, and I guess I'll say this kind of, I'm sure as we wrap up here. I read a quote the other day and it said, if your compassion doesn't leave room for yourself, it is incomplete.
And I was walking around with incomplete compassion, a very compassionate person, compassion for everybody and everything around me. I never had any real compassion for myself. And Hoffman gave me that. And it has actually expanded my ability to have compassion for others. - Ebony k Williams, thank you for this conversation for the many goosebumps and for who you are in the world. I'm grateful. - Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza in Grassi.
I'm the CEO and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. - And I'm Ra Rossi Hoffman, teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute Foundation. - Our mission is to provide people greater access to the wisdom and power of love - In themselves, in each other, and in the world. To find out more, please go to hopin institute.org.