- Kevin Ayers joins us on this episode today, and he talks about the development of the Hoffman app, how it came to be, the research he did, why he chose certain things over other things, the students and grads that he interviewed. It's a great intro to the app. He also talks about feelings and the role feelings play in working with tech entrepreneurs and CEOs. Kevin Ayers, a Hoffman teacher, and a all around good guy. I hope you enjoy the episode.
- Welcome to Love's Everyday Radius, a podcast brought to you by the Hoffman Institute. My name is Drew Horning, and on this podcast we catch up with graduates for conversations around how their internal work in the process is informing their life outside the process, how their spirit and how their love is living in the world around them, their everyday radius. - Welcome to the Hoffman Podcast. My name is Drew Horning, and Kevin Ayers is with me.
Welcome, Kevin. Hello - Drew. - It's great to be talking to you. Kevin, is you, Kevin, our Hoffman Process teacher. You recently spearheaded the development of this amazing new app we have, and we're gonna talk about that a little bit, but you have a history as a LinkedIn, early LinkedIn, uh, employee. Uh, you have a daughter. You've been married for almost 20 years. It's just great to have you. What else would you add to that, uh, intro there? - I think you kind of wrapped it up. Yeah.
I was a tech person that then transitioned into becoming a Hoffman teacher, which is quite a, uh, quite a transition in life, which has been incredibly fulfilling. - What's it like, uh, before we go there, what's it like to do that, to transition before we go to the app, I should say, to, to be in the tech world and then be in this transition to this deep soulful, emotional laden world of the process?
- Hmm. Uh, it, it was a rocky road, , you know, this was one where, you know, it was, it was definitely an intentional choice that was met by a whole bunch of patterns. You know, coming out from, from a tech world where there's titles or forget even just technology, but, you know, as a managing director of, you know, a company with a big brand or you know, CEO of another company, and it was all about title and stature, and then moving to being a coach and then a Hoffman teacher.
It was giving up that identity, which I so wanted to do, but then I found myself, it's like, oh, well who am I without these titles? You know? Um, and so there was a lot more, uh, self-doubt around, oh, my identity is, is much more tied to who I am in the world or what I do in the world. And so that was, that was a big transition for me, which was huge growth. - Yeah. Kevin, what, but I feel like you've purposefully chose that growth.
I mean, as I know you, you love learning, you love being in this place of trying to figure stuff out, and you're not afraid to fail or get confused or be uncomfortable. So didn't you like that part, even though a part of you had to give up a lot? - Oh, I loved it. And in fact, you know, that was one of the things that really drove me in the entrepreneurial realm of technology is, is innovation.
It was growth, it was building, and all along the way is risk and failure and, you know, failure, you know, coming from the, the tech world is that's just part of development. That's part of growth that, you know, failure is just not getting up. The fact that you fall down isn't failure. It's that's learning process. And so it was part of, you know, reorienting that around, you know, and pointing that at myself, um, to be able to continue to grow.
But yeah, that's, that's one of the things I just absolutely love about, about being a Hoffman teacher, is it continues to, to show me areas to grow that are, are well beyond an intellectual space. - Yeah. And you know, people, it, it almost sounds trite to, to value failure, that that's how you get to success, but it really is true that people demonize and weaponize their own failures against themselves, don't they?
- Oh, yeah. I certainly did , and we see a lot of people in the process doing the same thing as well.
And that's one of the areas where I think is what I love about being a, a teacher as well, is having had these different life experiences all the teachers have as all we, all of us have, but it's like, how can I bring that compassion, that understanding to somebody else who's, who's on the journey of trying to discover that failure is, it's simply a, a more of a state of mind than, um, you know, than an event that has happened, even though it could be painful.
- That's interesting. So it, it is our interpretation of it as a failure that is the problem. The event itself wasn't actually even a failure. - No, I think as many times as how we frame it to ourselves is what it mean, you know, what do we make it mean to us? - What do we make failure mean to us?
So good. Uh, so Kevin, let's go there because you did this amazing app and, um, the more and more I teach, the more I'm hearing and it's fairly new, so I wanna take listeners and grads into the experience of using the app, what they can get out of it. And I first wanna start with this. When you did the research for the app, I mean, 99.9% of the people who take the process have an amazing experience. Can't we say that? It almost just feels intuitively.
I i, I just, so many people have such incredible experiences, right? - Absolutely. In fact, we have some data on that too. Yeah, - I was gonna ask about, what is that number called? I, I love this part of that app development. - Well, we'll start off with why, and then I'll, I'll get into the, get into the data. So, you know, our why, why did we create this app? It was really around three components. It was help our graduates integrate, you know, after this deep process that they've had.
Then, you know, how do we help them integrate all of the learnings into their daily lives and have some kind of a persistent connection back to themselves, not necessarily even to hoffen, but really back to themselves. The other thing is, how can we help connect our graduates with tools and practices? And the third aspect is how can we connect as a community? And so those were, you know, more of our big things about why we wanted to do it.
And then if we're gonna support anyone, then it's not just, uh, up to us to just say, Hey, I think they need this or that. It's, we talk to our grads. And so as we spoke to our grads, one of the questions that came out was, we use net promoter score, which is a measurement of customer satisfaction. And it, and it is a, a best in class tool or metric that's been used. And our, our NPS score overall was a 91, which if you, you know, track marketing and NPS scores, it is absolutely off the charts.
Um, incredibly rare for that. - So Apple, for example, which has a pretty high customer rating, what was their NPS score? - Uh, I think, you know, theirs was in the high thirties, forties, - Wait, thirties or forties. - Yeah. And - Ours was a 91. - A 91, right. Tesla's one of the few that has a very high, uh, net promoter score. But if you look at most of the companies, you know, that are out there, then you know, their, their aspirations will probably be in the thirties to forties.
- I, I'm, I'm, I'm dumbstruck. Wow. Yeah. - And, and that, that number held true, you know, roughly, depending on how many courses you've taken, if it was just the process or Hoffman Essentials or, you know, we had some people that had, you know, gone through the process six months before, and some of them up to 15 years prior, and their NPS scores were still, they ranged the kind of lowest from 88 up to 96 amongst all of those different, um, representative classes that we just talked about.
- So what did that mean for you? Like what did you do with that? - This means that our graduates are, one they're satisfied with, with Hoffman, and not just with Hoffman, but what they've received from Hoffman. And they want more of it, you know, this, this was essentially the big takeaway that there, we have a loyal, satisfied group of graduates who are hungry for more. And what they're hungry for more of is that connection back to themselves.
And that's the other thing that really came through in the data is what were they looking for? It was really, they were looking for, it's like, we want to help, we want help on practices. And one of the things that, that came up, a couple of different quotes, you know, in different ways, but it came, it came down to this, this one quote that we kind of amalgamated out of several, which is, the app should be a bit like a Hoffman teacher in my pocket.
It's somebody is there for me every time I need, and this is really, it's like, ah, I'm there for myself because this is simply a reminder about me coming back to myself being present using the different tools and practices of saying, ah, I don't have to do this all on my own. - Wow. An app that helps grads come back to themselves as a reminder of, of that connection they had with themselves during the process.
- Yeah. So they wanted practices, they wanted inspiration, they wanted guidance, and they wanted some reminders and some little nudges about how can you just help me reconnect to those deep learnings that sometimes get forgotten when we're, when we're back in the world and the world is kind of busy and back in our lives, and it's like, ah, I remember what we did.
I remember that time where I really was able to connect to myself emotionally again, - You know, I'm just like, that was part of what I've heard, uh, is that was then I'm not there now and therefore I can't, some version of that. Uh, and the app sort of says, well, not so fast actually. You can, you can actually go back in time and remember, remember. So how did all of
that help you formulate this powerful tool? So - What we did is we, we broke this down into what are are the, we, we broke it down into different user groups, and then what are the mindsets of them? And then we had recent grads, and then we had, uh, disengaged grads, and we had practicing grads. And you know, with each of them, the mindset was a little bit different, but their needs were quite similar, especially from a recent grad to a disengaged grad.
If we look at the needs, the needs are, I need refresher on tools and theories. I need something to help remind me and encourage me. And I also would like some more of a connection either to a grad group or coaching. And so if we look at those, you know, recent grad or disengaged grad, many of the needs were the same. And so we were able to put together, well, if we look at this, even though they have opposing mindsets, the needs are the same.
We just need a slightly different entry back into the tools and practices. And so what that did is that helped us understand, well, here is our very first step, and one thing we definitely learn from technology is you don't try to solve everything straight away. So we looked at this instead of what many people call in tech a minimum viable product, we talked at minimal lovable product.
So it's like, what is something that our, our grads would absolutely love and let's give them that that, but not every single thing that they're asking for to make sure that Yeah. Substance. Yeah. - And you, you substituted, uh, love, uh, instead of viable, - Right? Right. And that was actually from, um, we're using a, uh, an outsource design team from, uh, called Fresh out of Denver. And, um, 'cause this definitely was not me, creating this whole thing. And, and that was actually from them.
After they, they got engaged more with Hoffman. Each one of the people took Hoffman Essentials so they could get a better understanding. They're like, this is this, wow, this is really about love. They're like, yes, you got it. And so what we did is we came up with essentially five things that we're looking at.
It's a practice library, a curated programs we can help our graduates on board, and then, you know, reminders and, um, you know, kind of scheduling of practices that we, that we came back with. And then we had other things that we said, you know, this is going to happen later as far as, you know, community and, you know, well, uh, wellbeing and progress checks, you know, that will, that will be later.
So we just really focused on a couple of things, mainly around integration program and the practice library. And then we started from there, but we really wanted to look at it from how can we freshen it up a little bit and take some of the brand to, to more of a, a more modern digital space. And so we did, you know, a little bit of branding work on it as well, updated some logo, and then we had it in an interface that is much more photo-based and inviting.
- So if in that invitation, as someone is considering how to use the app, what's a good place for a grad to start? - Well, I think the best place to start is more, well, one, just download the app. It's only iOS, which is another thing we found out by doing the survey. It was just a little over 90% of our graduates were on iOS devices. So we decided as well to, to limit it to that, uh, for at least right now we'll have something else later.
The first thing is download the app from, from the Apple App store. And then as you, as you go through the, the setup of it, I'll ask you, would you like to participate in a 30 day integration program? And that's geared primarily for people who are coming out of the process, but anybody can use that.
Anybody who's, who's taken the process, because again, we go through and from a day by day basis, you'll spend three to four minutes with a Hoffman teacher, and it's up to you when you wanna do that. So it's a recording, a video recording, and it'll be a little message reminding you about something from your process.
It could be, you know, the cycle of transformation or negative love, self-compassion, lots of different, uh, themes, but it's about reminding you and it helps you, you know, with a 30 day practice of reconnecting to yourself using the Hoffman tools and practices. So that's one way. Is that - A teaching with, uh, practice? It kind of has didactic but also an experience attached to it? - It does for the most part, yeah. So there's a little didactic or a reminder on this 30 day message.
So it's a, sorry, we call it a daily message. So it's about three to four minutes, followed by a quad check. And in the afternoon, then there's, uh, appreciation and gratitude that will be there. So those are the more of the anchoring practices that we have. Quad check in the morning, appreciation and gratitude in the evening.
Much like what we do on Instagram, the difference is, is you have, they're, they're scheduled in with this daily message and the quad checks and the appreciation gratitudes are, are tweaked some to what that daily message is as well. So that's one way. Another way is just to come in and look at this. And within the app we have, um, quite an extensive library. We recorded over 50 new pieces of content and different visualizations or experiences just for the app that didn't exist before.
So there's quadri checks from 15 different teachers. There's appreciation and gratitude about the same number as well. We have a new, um, space, which we call managing challenges. And so there's, you know, uh, a little visualization on talking with a challenging person, facing a challenging situation, uh, a self-compassion break. And there's, you know, lots of different, uh, lots of different ones around managing challenges.
Some of our classic visualizations, which is, you know, I am that I am the river of life. I see your name on there, drew with a spirit guided path. Um, and then a whole nother section on visioning and, you know, visioning that is, you know, 45 minutes of visioning all the way down to five minutes. We've really tried to craft this to make it much more accessible. Lots of different forms of recycling.
Um, whole new section on expressions will guide you through expression, centering praxis elevators, and then, uh, the frequently asked questions, which was a great, this was an idea, I think that was yours, drew, right? About making a podcast. I think it was you and Sharon did podcasts around the frequently asked questions, which is, I think I failed the process ups and downs after the process resourcing with Spirit and coming home to a non Hoffman partner.
So we took all of these questions that our grads were coming up with, and we were trying to kick around different ideas to, uh, to address them. And I'm pretty sure it was you that came up with the idea. It's like, Hey, how about we do a podcast on this? And here we go. - And I know you track data. So what are you noticing in the early going of what people are being drawn to? - Certainly the 30 day practice is, uh, is extremely popular.
- It's almost like a 30 day challenge. Yeah, - It is a bit like a 30 day challenge. Oh, wow. And I'm just looking, the data, we just hit a record on, uh, just two days ago we had 690 people use the app, - And that could be as quick as scanning some stuff or really dropping into processes and
and practices. And - So what we're finding, just going back to the, uh, the question around, you know, what are people using the, I guess the majority of people who are using this 30 day integration program, and just from the data, the people who start then 75% are still using, um, are still on that 30 day integration program 10 days later. And if we look at, uh, 20 days later, then it's 55% or 20 days later, and then the app hasn't been around super long.
So our data starts to, to trail off as far as, we don't have a whole bunch of cohort analysis on it yet, but the vast majority of people who are starting this are continuing. Which, that gives us a, that's a one that's just great stats on, on completion rates and follow through rates. But it really shows us that our, our graduates are really enjoying this. And all the feedback that we've had, again, it's, uh, been been nothing but positive other than a few bugs that we've been fixing.
- Kevin, I'm listening to you smiling like This is Right Live livelihood for you. You have cross section of both the tech world through the app and the heart, soul world through your work as a process teacher. Do you love this part of it? - I absolutely love it, . And it's not just that, it's also the, the teamwork and collaboration that it took in order to create this for me.
I mean that's, you know, just going back to the time as an exec, then one, it was, you know, creating products and, you know, and, and innovation, you know, driving things that people just hadn't imagined before and actually making it a reality. There's that, but it all comes down to it's all the people and the teamwork that makes it happen.
It's not the technology for the technology sake, it's, for me, the most exciting part about it was motivating a team of people to collaborate and work together to create something that maybe as a collective we weren't even sure we were able to do. But we got together and we actually did that.
And that was what it was like, you know, within Hoffman and the whole teaching team, we had, I think we have 20 different teachers represented, and with all of these different visualizations and, you know, new content, there was such a, uh, spirit of, of innovation, you know, within the whole Hoffman team. It was just, it was nice and buzzing with all of that. And then just to be able to see that in real time, all come together and then launch a product, it's for me,
I mean, that is, this is fun. Absolutely fun. - That's the, it's not work. It's right. Livelihood, time flies when you're in that flow. - Yeah, absolutely. I like that. Right. Livelihood, - Kevin, I, um, I'm just wanting to pause here. 'cause you, you have been in that tech world leading CEO leading teams and, and the, the importance of emotion, the importance of the EQ as opposed to iq, you know, it's how you work together. It's how you navigate relationships, it's how you build trust.
Turns out, the work we do in the process really helps people in their professional lives. You see that, don't you? - Absolutely. Absolutely. At the end of the day, you know, we're all people interacting with each other. It doesn't matter what the role of the job is. It's, you know, a person interacting with another person. It's about human relationships, and it's about that emotional connection that we have with ourselves and each other.
This is where I saw so many, this is where I saw myself get way off track and, and so many others, which is where we wanted to deny what we were feeling or suppress what that was, or I don't want to feel this way, and so I'm just gonna use my intellect to gut this out. And either that or, you know, we're just ignored people that were in pain of, you know, who knows what else was happening in their lives. It could be self-doubt or it could be, you know, relationship issues.
But that comes into the workplace and we need to take care of each other first. And by, you know, going through Hoffman and using these tools and practice and having a much better connection with self, then we're able to one, relate to ourselves and then relate to each other in a much more different way.
And absolutely, I mean, I've worked with a number of leaders that have come through the process, and this has been one of their big revelations is like, I had now have a different lens of leadership. And that leadership mainly comes from compassion for self and compassion for others. Being able to say, sorry, I was wrong. Here's what I was trying to do. Here's what I'd like to do. Can I, is there something that I can do to make this up?
But having the confidence to be able to see yourself and yeah, just be real with other people. - I love that. And you were, um, a leader and a coach before you took the process, before. You've been teaching for years now. How has your coaching and your leading of teams changed as a result of your experiences in leading students through the process? Like, what do you notice? What do you do differently? What are you, uh, less patient around?
What do you push harder on as a result of your work as a Hoffman teacher and what, you know, - One is just much more present, you know, instead of trying to figure out what's the right answer or what's the most clever thing I can say to this particular person that I'm coaching. It's just in many cases, remove myself from it and just really deeply listen and be present and look for that emotional thread.
You know, most of the times when I'm especially, you know, coaching CEOs or things, and it's like, you know, here's the issue and here's the issue and let's dive into the issue. And it's like, hang on a second before we do that, what are you feeling about this? You know, what are you making this, you know, if you're, if you're anxious about, you know, how this deal is gonna go, what does that, what does that mean about you if you're, if you're anxious?
And to be able to sort out, you know, what's happening for them internally and then, okay, now let's look at the actual event, or the facts or the situation. And in many cases, after they've looked at themselves and see where they are, then they can look at the facts on the street and say, oh, I got the answer.
I already know that I was, I was just caught up in, I didn't want something to happen or was afraid, um, of what somebody else might think or my image when at the end of the day it was, they just needed to clear themselves. And so they could, uh, they could actually see what the answer really was that they knew, but they just had to get outta their own way. That's a big piece of it, is presence and listening.
- I love that. It's almost like less is more just not trying to be clever and solve it, and instead just being bearing witness, if you will. - And to, and I think, you know, with many of the people that I work with, is being able to have that safety to speak about emotions in a way that, you know, is without a lot of charge. And they're, they're knowing that they're not, not gonna be shamed or wronged for whatever they feel.
It's just this open acceptance and then, okay, now we can look on where to go. 'cause many people, it's like they just, they're trying to deny what they're actually feeling or don't want to feel what they're feeling or just confused by it. And it's like, I've never really had a emotional dialogue about what I feel about this deal. I've just talked about the metrics of the deal or the terms. And so it's, it's looking at looking at leadership on multiple levels, which is, for one,
we're human first. So let's start there. - You know, Kevin, I, uh, we talking about emotions, you know, as a former therapist, I'm, I am right with you. And, and the more I teach the process, the more I kind of am realizing, you know, we've made emotions the problem. And as a result, we don't engage with them. We don't build a muscle around them.
And then as a result of that, when they show up undeveloped or kind of unquestioned or not understood, of course they're going to present in a way that's not helpful. And then we turn around and blame the emotion for showing up in a way that was undeveloped because we didn't give it any attention. It just feels like a vicious cycle that we never step out of.
And it's so heartwarming to hear you talk that with these powerful CEOs engaging in things that have nothing to do with emotion and everything to do with the bottom line, that you're not afraid to talk about feelings. - And that it took me a while to get there, you know? 'cause I, I, I wanted to and knew that was the way, but it's really easy to fall back into old habits of problem solving. Let's look at the data. Let's dig into this.
Let's talk about, you know, whoa, how can we renegotiate this deal? Let's get clever around this. And really, it's interesting, but many times just not that helpful. - Yeah, people, it's, it's fun to analyze things, isn't it? - It's , but it can be a real, it can be a real trap. - It's a rabbit hole. - Yeah. It's, it is the rabbit hole.
And, and what I've found is that when I've, when I've really stepped into that, and this is one of the things that being a Hoffman teacher is just absolutely one of the just powers that I've developed is to be able to stand with people, just be with people, present with whatever is happening, and just be unfazed with and just say, yeah, is there more? Is there more? And you know, before, you know, if somebody was raging, it'd be like, oh no, what have I gotta do?
Is this, what's happening here? I need to control this. And there's no need to just allow that. And I think it's so, it's so healing for people to be able to have a space where they're not, um, they're not judged by what's going on, what, what their reaction is, and they're held, and then be able to regulate it. Come back to, it's like, oh, okay, now that I've worked through this, what am I feeling here?
- Your fearlessness in the face of their intense emotions, uh, actually, uh, empowers them to work through it more, uh, quickly. - It does, it does. They know. It's like, oh, okay. I, I I can stand here as well and not have to worry about the other person. - Yeah. You know, Bob, uh, apparently that his big belief was that, uh, the answers are inside of us. And when I hear you talk, it is part, this support you're offering allows them to eventually find the wisdom that has been in them all along.
- That's exactly what the process is about. It's the wisdom within you. It is like we're, and I love how Liza says this quite a bit, you know, at the end of the process, it's like, we didn't, we didn't Hoffman eyes you, we just got you closer to you. - It is true. Some people feel like it's the, it's the process, but it's really them who did the work all along and found their way home to themselves. - And that's, I think, one of the biggest lessons there is, you know, you have this within you.
It's not about, oh, I have to go back to, you know, a Hoffman retreat of be able to find this again. It's like, no, this is within you. And that's why with this app, having the tools and practices right there at your fingertips, whether it's been two days that you've missed or two years that you've missed, you can always go back and say, oh, I remember what it was like sitting there doing this centering practice or recycling expression work, or whatever that is about.
This is a way that I have agency where I can come back to myself and I, I don't need somebody else to save me. I actually have the capacity right here in my heart. - And so for the app, as we wind down here, it sounds like an another version is coming for people who don't have iPhones eventually, and they can offer feedback as, as this app continues to develop. How would they do that? - Absolutely. Um, so in the app, there's a button right? In the settings where you can give us feedback.
The other thing that, yes. So here's one of the things. So we are, we're developing new versions of the app. We're gonna have something out in the next probably 10 days. We'll have navigating the holidays, you know, so this is now we, three weeks before Thanksgiving, we're recording this, so we're gonna have something for navigating holidays.
- So good. - Yeah, sometimes it's challenging when we're going back home, and for many of us, we may not have been home in quite some time with all the pandemic. And so it's about, you know, how do we, how do we navigate this holiday time? We're gonna have some other flows, which is around, you know, for Hoffman Essentials, and then we're looking at something for, um, then the New Years about how to start off the New Years, more likely with more visioning work around that.
So they'll see some new things that are coming up. The other thing that we're doing is many grads have, have written in and say, I would love to help. Is there any way I can help out? And so we've taken a look at this and we would love your help. And in fact, we're gonna open up some part-time positions where we can do some project work together on the app.
So if you are a product person, a designer in data analytics or data science, we would love to hear from you, you know, marketing, writing, and, you know, technology, especially around mobile apps. So iOS more specifically, or even kind of backend work, everything's hosted on Amazon AWS so experience with that. But if you are at all interested in getting engaged, again, this is, you know, very, very, very small project basis.
But we figure if we're gonna create an app for our community, then we need to engage our community even more. And so if you would, if you are interested in that, you can send me an email at [email protected]. - So many grads leave the process with such gratitude for the experience and they wanna give back. And I love that this is one funnel for engaging grads in the volunteer work that they're so happy to do.
- Yeah. And we've got some, uh, we've got some other grads who, uh, who have already signed up to do this. Some, you know, really top level, uh, top level folks in their field around design and technology that, um, yeah, I think we've, we've got the makings of a really nice, you know, little project teams where, you know, literally talking, you know, a few hours a week in order to do this. But we're, we're looking at creating community through our community.
- Kevin, for your ability to toggle between the worlds of technology and emotion, I am grateful and for what you've done for the institute in bringing this app to life, I'm doubly grateful. Thank you. - Oh, you're very welcome. It's really an honor and a joy, not just with Yap, but just being part of Hoffman and the Hoffman community. It's wonderful. - Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza Insi. I'm the CEO and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation.
- And I'm Rasing Rossi Hoffman, teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute Foundation. - Our mission is to provide people greater access to the wisdom and power of love - In themselves, in each other, and in the world. To find out more, please go to Hoffman institute.org.