- What do you do if the breakthrough never comes? Hey, it's Drew Horning and you're about to hear a conversation with Ami song who references the fact that her breakthrough wasn't happening during her process. She'll talk about what that's like. She also talks about being an influencer. And I'll be honest, I don't know a whole lot about that world, but I learned that AMI was willing to take some risks even when she lost some sponsorship to stand up for what mattered to her.
I hope you enjoy this conversation. Ami Saal. Welcome to Love's Everyday Radius, a podcast brought to you by the Hoffman Institute. My name is Drew Horning and on this podcast we catch up with graduates for conversations around how their internal work in the process is informing their life outside the process. How their spirit and how their love is living in the world around them, their everyday radius. Hey everybody, my name is Drew Horning and welcome to the Hoffman Podcast.
Ami song is with us today and she is a fashion influencer, the founder of Song of Style. She's a New York Times bestselling author. She wrote the book called Capture Your Style. She actually has a second book that came out in 2018 called World of Style, uh, a Me Song, world of Style. She made the Forbes 30 under 30 list and she was also featured in the Business of Fashion as one of their top business of fashion 500 people shaping the fashion industry.
She's a New York Times, as I said, bestselling author and this last critical piece on me, she has her own personal Barbie. Is that true? Do they do personal Barbies on me? - ? Yeah. Couple of years ago, um, Barbie or Mattel reached out and made me my own Barbie . - What is that like to look at your own liking in a Barbie? - Incredible because I grew up playing with blonde Barbies and white Barbies and as a Asian American it was such a big milestone.
And also I was able to use my Barbie platform to raise awareness for the L-G-B-T-Q community, uh, which actually went viral and people thought I was Barbies lesbian girlfriend, . So that was a fun moment. . - Oh my gosh. So welcome. It's so good to be having this conversation with you. - Thank you Drew. And I'm honored and humbled to be on your podcast. - Wow. So tell us a little bit about why you did the process. I mean, what led you to say, okay, I'm ready. I wanna do this.
- I first heard about the Hoffman process from one of my really good friends, Jen Akin, and I saw a transformation in her 'cause I've known her before the process and I saw her immediately after the process and then I continued to like hang out with her and her husband like after they had done the process for several months and even after a year and I saw how much they have changed and I wanted that change.
I wanted to be like on me 2.0, like a better version of myself and I felt like the Hoffman was going to provide that for me. - So you signed up, you went to the process, you did all the paperwork. Was uh, I'm just kind of curious about your impression as the week went along. What was it like for you to be in this immersive experience? - So my personality, I don't really do a lot of research and I just jump into things. If somebody says it's like fun and cool, I'm like, okay, I'll do it.
So that's exactly what it was. I had, I had no idea what it was going to be like. And when I was there, the biggest thing that was surprising was like, no access to the outside world, no phone, no internet. That was crazy for me because as a social media person and an internet personality, I've been connected to my phone since 2008 or the internet and I've never, even when I take a vacation, I'm still working because I'm an internet personality or an influencer. So that was very interesting.
- I was about to say you, that's your lifeline. I mean I just checked, you have almost 6 million followers on Instagram. That's incredible. - . Yeah. So it was very interesting and also refreshing. - Take us to a moment in time, either during or after your process, what stands out for you as transformative? - So when I was at the process, our group was very small and actually our group was really diverse too, which is something that I liked and didn't expect.
But when I was at the process, I actually had a lot of journey mb and that's one of my like negative patterns. And I think a lot of people could probably relate to this because you know, like we're living in a social media age where we're constantly comparing what we're doing with other people's, like success and just looking at what other people are doing. And I noticed that I was having a lot of journey envy.
So like when other people were having transformative moments at the process, I kept thinking how come my, I, I feel change and I feel like this is so useful, but why am I not having the same experience as this person or that person? - I see. So kind of comparing your, your experience to what other people were having. Mm-Hmm - , like I could totally see some of the students that were there.
They were literally having transformative experiences like from the first day until like maybe like the fourth or fifth day, I really saw a difference in them. Like completely - And you're like, oh, I want some of that. - Yeah. And I kept on thinking like I feel, I knew I, I was getting a lot of information and I felt like this, what I was doing was great and it was a very useful experience when I was at the process. But I didn't feel as transformative as some of the other students.
'cause some of the students were literally like night and day like, like their experience. But then again I had my transformative experience after the process and I understood why it's called the Hoffman process, not just like the Hoffman because it literally, everything is a process and I feel like I'm still having that transformative experience now. - Wow. So you were keen in observing the changes in everyone else and then left the process and something happened.
Take us there. Where are you? What's happening post-process? - So at the Hoffman process they suggest that we don't go back to the real world. We take at least a day or two just for ourselves, not going back to our old habits or habitat. So that's what I did. I went to, I forgot exactly where I was, but somewhere in north California, Northern California, I was at a hotel by myself and then I went on a hike, I think it was called the Forgiveness hike or something.
And I went on a two hour hike by myself with no music. My phone was on airplane mode. The only time I ever used my phone was just to call Uber or to look at the map. And during that hike I was, it was crazy because I was noticing every single thing. I was noticing every single thought. I was looking at the scenery, I saw animals, I saw the bird, I looked at the sky, I looked at the grass. I was stepping on each like step and looking at the stones. Like I just noticed everything, everything.
And it was different because normally when I, I go on walks a lot, but normally when I'm going on walks or if I'm driving, I always have music on or I always have a podcast on or I'm talking to a friend and it's very rare for me to like completely walk by myself alone with my thoughts in silence. - Wow. - Yeah, I think that's something that I had never done before the process. - So Ami, you talk about a couple things there. One is like this acute awareness of everything happening around you.
The the, your senses were on overdrive, uh, in full experience of it all. But then also you mentioned like being present to yourself, your thoughts, your feelings, your internal world. - I was so present and I realized a lot of times I'm not present. I was never present before. I was always kind of numbing my thoughts or I thought I was just listening to music and de-stressing or reading a book. But in a way I'm also numbing, like whatever I'm thinking.
I've just never had a long period of time where I'm like literally not doing anything and just sitting alone with my thoughts. - You know, people always say well be present, be present. But I guess I want to ask what what was it like to be so present to everything that was happening?
So in touch - It was actually so beautiful Now because of that, if I'm on a plane for like five hours, I could literally be present without any music, without podcasts, without watching TV on the flight, I could literally just be alone with my thoughts and like a year ago, AMI would've hated that. I would be so bored out of my mind. I would be trying to read a magazine or like bother whoever's sitting next to me on a flight and talk to them nonstop.
That was me. But I guess after Hoffman process, AMI is okay with sitting in silence with her thoughts and being present. - That sounds pretty cool, like being at home in your body. - Yeah, it's actually really beautiful because I feel like a lot of people don't do that. We always, like you are saying, like being in the present, we talk about that a lot. But how many of us are actually always in the present and really, you know, sitting alone with our thoughts or noticing things.
- I'm getting a little contact high, I am taking , I'm taking deep breaths and I'm just feeling calmer as you describe it. Even your description of it is helping me feel that. And then I think you talked at some point about the relationships and the way in which you hold each other accountable. Was there something there in that? Yeah, - After the Hoffman process, I came back to la.
So after like two days alone I came, I flew back to LA and when I was back in my element with like what was, whatever was happening and like the real life and all that stimulation, I kind of had like a, my negative pattern or like a, almost like an anxiety or attack or a panic attack happening. And then I was like, oh my gosh, everything I learned at Hoffman is like, I don't remember anything. Like I'm going crazy. Like oh my gosh, I like the old army is coming back.
And the old army, like the one that I wanted to really like fix or certain habits that I wanted to get rid of, like all of that was all coming back. And then I remembered, okay, let me call at Hoffman. So right before we leave we have this thing called accountability buddy. So you can like whoever you become like close with, I guess you just exchange phone numbers and try to hold each other accountable and check in with them, check in on each other like every week.
And there was a guy at Hoffman who we exchange numbers so that we can be each other's accountability buddy. And he's somebody that I would've probably never become friends with in real life because we don't live in the same state. Our lives are so different. Like he's a dad and we're just like so different.
But at that moment I called him and I told him what I was going through, how I was feeling, and then he helped me do a lot of the exercises that we did at Hoffman and he like literally were like on the phone for almost an hour and he was like taking me through that and he helped me through that moment, which was actually so incredible. - I can feel your gratitude for him and also for the the practices and tools themselves. And that helped. - Yeah, it was so helpful.
Yeah, like I tried to, every time I saw myself kind of falling back into like my negative pattern or like certain negative things or habits that were coming out, I would try to remember certain practices that I did at Hoffman. - Nice. Yeah, so those are accountability buddies where people find someone, a couple people to really intentionally stay in touch and support each other.
And accountability sounds a little harsh, but to intentionally use the fact that you both graduated from the process, you both know the tools and to support each other on the path, on the journey, that's a what a great example. That and the forgiveness walk that you talked about sound like really powerful post-process experiences.
- Yeah and a lot of times whenever I have like close friends or even like friends who I feel like are going through something or, I mean I honestly do feel like if every single person on this planet did Hoffman process, none of us would have like issues like in terms of like war arguments or disagreements or maybe we'll have disagreements but we won't be so hateful to each other. And I feel like half of the world's problems will be solved.
So I do talk a lot about Hoffman process with my followers or any of my friends that have yet to do it. And one of the biggest, I guess, blessings and transformations that I've gotten out of the whole process is the relationships that I have. And I didn't realize how much Hoffman process would affect the relationships because I went in wanting to work on myself. But then again, as human beings, we're all about connection, right? Because nobody can survive solely by themselves.
And it's all about relationships, who, how like your relationship is to other people, your friends, siblings, family, significant others, even like work relationships. And I noticed the biggest difference in my relationships and how I approach confrontation, um, hardship, any kind of adversity and yeah, any kind of issue. My boyfriend also did Hoffman process and I see also such an incredible difference in him after the process.
- Yeah. So you guys have been able to, or I guess it sounds like all of your friendships, not just with your boyfriend, but resolve conflict and part of what I heard you say is to almost build up your stamina for discomfort and repair so that you can be closer with people. Is that part of what you're talking about? - Yeah, because in life there's always going to be obstacles and struggles, right? That's something that is always no matter what it's gonna happen, it's life.
But the only thing we can control in that situation is usually our thoughts, our mindset and how we react to those situations and how we react to those situation determines the outcome. Whether it's gonna be a good experience and a learning experience or a really bad experience and you're gonna just go downward spiral. And I think I was able to learn how to be better at being reactive - Or or less reactive. Right, - Or less reactive. Yeah. - Yeah. That's so cool.
So I wanna ask a little bit about the life of an influencer for the uninitiated. You know, you have these followers who are loyal to you and what I did notice is your sense of style and design and some just beautiful photos. I know you also have a a, you do some v flogging on YouTube. Tell me a little bit about what it's like to be an influencer and what's important to you about that.
- So I've been an influencer, well I was first a fashion blogger since 2008 and then when Instagram came along I became an influencer. And then now I have my own clothing, uh, clothing brand. So I'm, I mean it's always exciting. I'm always trying to transform myself because sometimes just doing one thing gets boring or I feel, I don't feel as fulfilled. But so far I've been loving it.
I love that I'm able to use my platform for something positive because at the end of the day as an influencer it would be so much more meaningful for me if I could influence people to make better life decisions or just have a fulfilling life themselves rather than buying to buying what I tell them to buy. Uh, influencing them on like clothes.
But if I'm able to influence them in feeling a certain way, like maybe recommending them a good book or now I actually get so many dms or direct messages or even little cards from people who actually have done the Hoffman process after they heard about it from me. And a lot of them say it was very transformative, life changing and thanking me for that. So I mean for me I think I find joy in those moments.
- Yeah, you know, I was noticing the, so much of it is Im, uh, style and as you said, fashion sense. And uh, I know you studied architecture in college and such beauty, so you have a a keen aesthetic, um, me, but you also don't shy from the personal stuff. I watched, um, a YouTube vlog on therapy and you talked about how you really needed therapy and how therapy is helpful for you. So you don't shy away from the internal experience of living life. Do you?
- I think I was very drawn to fashion, interiors and style because inside I was, I wasn't feeling so happy. And aesthetics is something, it's like a first impression and you can literally be whoever you want and have that kind of fake confidence, which has helped me throughout the years.
Like my whole childhood, my high school years, college years, I, I mean I went through a lot of things with my family, with finances, like a lot of hardship and adversity and I never felt like incredibly confident. But when I put on a good look, I felt so confident no matter what was happening at home. And I think that was so useful for me. So like from the outside, from the exterior, I felt like I could look like I had everything together.
And then in the beginning that was great for me because it helped me venture out in the world do amazing things. But as my blog grew, as my followers started growing and I became more known and I started traveling around the world, I was like literally going to Paris, Italy, like Japan all in a month and doing all these incredible amazing things that 16-year-old AMI would be like, oh my gosh, I felt so empty inside even though I felt like I was living my dream.
And especially because I showcase my life and all the things that I do on Instagram, like it's very much of a highlight reel, all the amazing things I wanna show, I show that on Instagram and I don't really show the ugly moments or the sad moments or the vulnerable moments because I was doing that. I kept, I'll re comments from other people like followers younger girls or people around the world saying like, oh my gosh, AMI, your life is gold dream. I wish I had your life. I dream job.
Oh my gosh, you look so beautiful. I wish I was you. Like how can I be you? And all these comments. And then I felt like a phony, like I felt like a phony, like a liar 'cause I felt so broken inside and everything was such a surface thing that I realized I hadn't nurtured feeling how I feel or like look like outside in the inside. So eventually I decided to do therapy and then that's when I slowly realized, oh my gosh, I have so much work to do.
Like in the beginning when I was growing up, this all helped like having this facade and have like all this beauty around me. Like this was so good for me where I guess character development or like having confidence or the fake confidence and like navigating the world, but then again, it only lasts like a certain time and what I really need to work is the inside.
So that's when I started doing therapy and then I felt like it was so important for me to share that with my followers because I also have a lot of young girls following me or boys following me. And I wanted them to know that sometimes you can make it to the very top and still feel so broken because you haven't worked on your insights. And I wanted to be honest and v vulnerable, so I decided to be more vulnerable and honest and share like my therapy experience and all of that.
- I'm so grateful for that kind of perspective, that journey that you just described. And I have to ask, did that lead to more followers or did, did people unfollow you when, when you started to talk about your internal experience? - No, I didn't. I don't think I ever lost followers from that. But then again, in the beginning, brands were more hesitant with working with me because ultimately I make money with brands like the brand deals and all that.
And they felt like I was too emotional because this is around 2016 I believe, or 2017 where we don't, we didn't really talk much about mental health like as we do now. And it was hard for them to sell or work with somebody who's talking about mental health when they always wanna just portray something that's happy and beautiful and amazing. - Ami, this is so good because you didn't change, the industry caught up with you and now the things you've been doing all along, they start to value more.
- Yeah. So I do feel grateful and I, I love that I just stuck with my guts. So in the beginning I did lose like certain brand partnerships. Yeah, I actually did lose a few brand partnerships because they kept on saying I talked too much about mental health and it doesn't align with their branding and whatnot, . But now it's totally fine.
- It is amazing how in just a few short years that has changed, thank you for your willingness to be courageous and step out into a place where not many people were talking a space where not many people were in, right? - I mean it was scary, but I'm also grateful for like some of the close friends that I had who pushed me to do therapy because had I not started therapy, I would've never been able to do that.
And then also like for me, a lot of little things led to, you know, like going to the Hoffman and uh, process and changing, not changing, but like becoming a better version of myself and all of that. - You know, earlier you were talking about if, if everybody just went to Hoffman, you know, Bob Hoffman's vision that he shared early on was world peace, one person at a time.
And so I think it lines up with how you hold the process as well as if more people could do the internal work of peace, the world would be the beneficiary. - Yeah. I think also, 'cause I'm sure I get these messages a lot too from people where, who have never done therapy before and they're asking, oh, do I need to already be in therapy in order to do Hoffman? Like how does that all work? And if I think about like my boyfriend, so he's a real Italian, pure Italian like very macho like alpha guy.
I mean he's like so sweet, but inside he's like just super alpha, very like typical Italian. He grew up in a household where like, men don't cry. Uh, if you do therapy there's something wrong with you. You know, that kind of household or that kind of culture. And he had never done therapy yet. He did Hoffman, which is so crazy. I can't sometimes, I still can't believe that he did the Hoffman process .
But the crazy thing is, before he went in, he had so many doubts because he's so not that person who would talk about his feelings. Now I just can't have it. Like he won't shut up about his feelings. , it's so funny. But then again, our relationship, the way it's changed is just incredible. Like, like I see such a big difference in him and our and in our relationship. And then the other thing is my boyfriend is so like stingy with his words and comments.
I guess Northern Italians, they're not good at complimenting. Like he says Americans compliment too much and we fluff a lot, you know, oh my God, you look so beautiful, like blah. Whereas it like him, if the food is good, he'll say, it's not bad if the food is insanely delicious, he is like, oh, it's pretty good. You know? It's like he never, you would never hear him say, oh my gosh, it's mind blowing. Whereas I'm that person, I exaggerate. I'm very expression like I express a lot.
But after the Hoffman process, like literally every time we talk to like different couples or friends, I see him like selling the Hoffman process and I'm like, whoa, the transformation in him . It's crazy. And then, yeah, all of our friends notice it too. , - That's fantastic. I I you know, sometimes people go to therapy before the process, just that's a part of their journey.
But e every so often we, we do have people who've never done therapy before who sign up for the process and they usually have great experiences too. I don't think it, there's an indicator one way or the other. But I did wanna ask about, um, earlier you spoke, I wanna go back to uh, the Barbie doll and the role as an American. You said the important nature that you grew up with only white Barbie dolls.
So can you just tell us a little bit about why it's important for you to be a leader or a model in or a representative or, or just what it means to you as an Asian American? - I mean, it's a lot of pressure actually , but having a big platform is a lot of pressure actually. 'cause sometimes I can't just think about myself.
I also automatically think, okay, how is my audience going to receive this in some way I could sort of be like in the pioneer space, especially in the fashion industry because growing up really there were no Asian role models. The only person I could think of is Lucy Lou from Charlie's Angels that I, that I saw in the media that was somewhat like me. You know, like we look completely different, but somebody that I can sort of relate to.
So when my blog started, I was literally the only Asian fashion blogger and it was such a white space and I never felt like I belonged. And also growing up, I never really felt like I belonged anywhere because I was always the one Asian girl. And even when I went back to like my parents, uh, their land South Korea, whenever I go there, I still stand out because I'm not fully Korean. So I always, I was always confused. I never felt like I belonged anywhere.
And I think all from all of those experiences, I think I like me constantly comparing myself and looking around what other people are doing. Like those type of patterns emerged for me now that I have such a platform. I'm a bit older than when I started. It's very important for me to be a good role model. I mean, being a role model is like such a, a heavy .
It's like, it's a lot of like pressure on me too, but I wanna influence like the younger generation in a positive way as much as I can with whatever I do. So like with my Barbie, 'cause you're mentioning my Barbie. So I had an opportunity to dress my own personal Barbie and then the real Barbie. So when that opportunity came, I wanted to use my platform to raise awareness of L-G-B-T-Q community and I put both of our Barbies in a T-shirt that said Love wins.
And back then Mattel, Barbies like headquarters, they had not made any stance about the L-G-B-T-Q community. They never said yeah, like equal rights for all, like none of that. But because of my Barbie, they have to. So I like using my platform in those type of positive ways, like influencing people and brands. I think that's something that I like, that makes me feel really like fulfilled and happy when I'm able to do that.
- And you're, I notice you're also not, not afraid of taking a risk and and risking corporate backing. - No, I'm not afraid. . I think I'm a, I've always been a risk taker and then the worst thing they could say is, no, we don't want this shirt. Give me another shirt. - Ah, me. What's it like to kind of remember your process experience and the aftermath of that and just kind of reflect on your career a little bit? What, what, what's it like to have that conversation? Talk about it.
- I mean, , it's, I mean it's great. I, I'm grateful that I had this chance to like, talk to you about like my process. 'cause it's not something I get to do often. All these memories are coming back up and it's making me feel really good and it's also reminding me that I need to do certain practices that I haven't been doing . Yeah. - Uh, I can't see you, but I can, I can hear the smile in your voice. Uh, and that sounds, uh, amazing. Yeah. - , thank you - Ami thanks very much.
I'm grateful for this conversation. Thank - You so much for having me and I will love to chat with you anytime. - Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza Insi. I'm the CEO and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. - And I'm Ra Rossi Hoffman, teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute Foundation. - Our mission is to provide greater access to the wisdom and power of love - In themselves, in each other, and in the world. To find out more, please go to hopin institute.org.