- Welcome to Love's Everyday Radius, a podcast brought to you by the Hoffman Institute. My name is Drew Horning, and on this podcast we catch up with graduates for conversations around how their internal work in the process is informing their life outside the process, how their spirit and how their love is living in the world around them, their everyday radius. Hey everybody, my name is Drew Horning and welcome to the Hoffman Podcast.
Today we have Dr. Jennifer Ashby, and I am excited to have her on the show. Um, Jen, would you introduce yourself, please? - Sure. Good morning. So, yes, I'm Jennifer Ashby, uh, mother of three big taller than me individuals. Now I am an integrative Chinese medicine practitioner, my private practice in San Francisco, and I'm a clinician and researcher at UCSF, Oser Center of Integrative Medicine. - All right, welcome to the show. - Thank you, - . It's great to have you.
How long ago did you do the process? - Uh oh, it's October two years ago. - And you have mentioned that many in your circle had done it, but you had resisted it. So how did you find yourself eventually on the steps of white sulfur springs? - So, for about almost 20 years, I'd been hearing about the Hoffman process, and at first had a good run of making fun of those who went through it.
And then, gosh, like two years and three weeks ago, 'cause I think we were, I was in the process exactly now, two years ago. So a couple weeks before I went in, or a month or something, um, a friend of mine, an ex was in crisis, got a call from his ex-wife that she thought he was suicidal and actively while acting on it. In that moment, I was at a party and I said to the hostess, I have to leave. And she asked why? And she's a psychotherapist.
And I told her, uh, she said to me, what are you gonna do when you grab 'em? And I said, you know, I think I'm gonna, I'll pick 'em up, bring them to my house, feed 'em, bathe them, put 'em to bed. She said, what, what are you gonna do tomorrow? And I said, oof, I don't know. I'll, I'll figure that out tomorrow. She said, Jen, what are you gonna do the day after that? And the day after that? And I just went, ah, oh, I got it. So I went for a walk and I came back and I said to her, I'm not going.
And she said, I'm really proud of you. That must have been really hard. And I said, okay, I, I need a drink, . So I turned the corner and the first person I saw, I said, Sylvia, okay, I'm really happy to see you. Tell me something. Tell me a story. How are you? And she said, uh, I literally just came out of the Hoffman process. I'm great. And I realized in that moment that I call it divine intervention, synchronicity, whatever. I said, okay, tell me about it.
Clearly I'm supposed to go. And that's how I got there. - There was a bit of surrender in that, uh, experience and then the opening of Sylvia there. - Yeah. But don't you think surrender's kind of part of the whole journey? ? It was just the beginning. - Yeah, that's right. So then, so, so that conversation, uh, inspired you to step into it, then take us into your process. There you are. You're, you've signed up for the Hoffman process and now you're in it.
Is there a moment, is there a moment in time that sticks out for you? - Oh, drew, I think you remember this moment. I was sitting in our small group right after I had completely transferred onto every single person in the circle. Uh, we went to our small groups and I was sitting there with my arms crossed, and you said, Jen, what's going on for you, ? And I said, oh, I just, you know, I've done a lot of work in my life and I've been through a lot, and I'm just, I'm, I'm .
I'm a little reluctant to believe that you guys can teach me anything I don't already know. And, uh, how are you guys not a cult? ? And you said fair questions. Very fair questions. So I remember that moment of, uh, and I, I remember laughing at myself at the end of the process thinking, God, how naive and arrogant that statement was. But it was also reflective of kind of who I had been in my life, right? I had built myself in a way where I could maintain enough.
It wasn't power because it wasn't genuine. Um, enough of a commanding presence that any place where I may have been lacking was masked. And that moment was a really lovely culmination of all of that, um, pathological patterning that I had been living in and feeling actually, um, intuitively knowing that I was stuck in, - Uh, any sort of weakness or vulnerability. You had created, um, masks and kind of shelter protection for that weakness? - Correct. - Okay.
So, so from that first small group at the beginning of the week, then you step into the work and what happens? - I really went in with no expectation. You know, people were able to say to me, you know, just try to surrender and be open to the process and don't waste your own time. But I didn't really know what that meant. Obviously, I'd never been through anything like this before.
And I remember you saying to me, when you're feeling like you're resisting, when you're feeling like you're getting a block up, I wanna challenge you to your level of comfort to lean into that. And that was a very new concept to me, the things that made me put up my protective shield, which had served me for a long time. But in this point in my life, I, that, that it wasn't serving me anymore. And I didn't realize that that was the it I knew that I was stuck.
I knew that I was a good person and I was functioning well, and I was a good and loving mother, and I was a good practitioner and I was a good friend. But this wasn't an external stuckness. Although I see after the process how it did affect my relationships in ways that were less than positive. But I could feel it. I just, I felt so stuck that I left a marriage prior to Hoffman, a couple years prior to Hoffman because we were in pattern.
And I could not get, I couldn't, I, it's like I was searching for a self that I'd never known, but I also couldn't find. So I, that concept of leaning in was something that I had so professionally and gracefully and elegantly avoided my entire life. And it's, it's props to Hoffman to be able to create a space safe enough for someone like me to be able to lean in and explore everything that I had denied and pushed against my entire life, which was, at its core, anything that made me vulnerable.
So imagine the difficulty of the dance your whole life when you're in a healing arts profession, when you strive to be a loving mother and a good friend. How hard that was to avoid vulnerability and still meet all those titles. - How , how, how did you do that? - I have no idea. I think I've, I, I think the way that I did it was, I felt like a failure a lot. And I'm not sure that I would've been described that way at all. I had many successes professionally and personally.
I think it was a, it was an internal struggle, and I think ultimately became an existential crisis without knowing how I got there. - Oh, wow. So in that moment in time, in the process where, where were you? I mean, you have, you have a keen ability to frame it and understand it and verbalize it. And yet part of what you're also saying is that the, the work is the experience. So what experience helped you have that intellectual understanding?
- Oh, goodness. I'm not sure that I could put it to an, uh, one aha moment. Um, I did have, I mean, I had one really big moment at the process that had changed my life forever. But I think it was like, it wasn't, it wasn't all at once, like a tidal wave. It was kind of like the la the waves going in and out of the waves and have them lapping on me through the process and all the different phases led me to new, to many, many new realizations. And it, it, again, it's a process.
So it was a lot of waiting. Well, it's probably taken me till now to be able to verbalize it even this way. It's a cont it's a continuum for me. Hoffman is with me every single day now. I, it, it ha the neuroplasticity in my brain has changed. I flow in the world differently. But within the process, we were having an experiential somatic, I think is, would be the way I'd explain it, uh, exercise. And I didn't wanna do it. Um, I was petrified of it.
And you talked to me and Joe talked to me, um, and said, you know, if you can try it, just give it a shot. And if you don't like it, you don't have to do it. 'cause you never have to do anything at Hoffman. And when I got in there, I looked around me and there was one person next to me who was in that exercise so deeply. And suddenly I fed off of her power and energy in it. And I just tried.
And I had never allowed myself to experience the depth of, of that sorrow to verbalize and a allow and emotionally allow myself to physically get into anything like that in my life. I, I don't lose, you know, I was the one, I didn't lose control. I didn't do anything that would make me look as though I was losing control unless I was angry. And this was an expression that wasn't out of anger. It's like my entire insides opened up.
I, I unraveled to the point where I had such a deep sense of emotional release. It was like a spiritual and emotional unraveling that allowed me freedom. I'm gonna cry. It was the greatest gift maybe it's ever been afforded to me besides the birth of my kids. And, um, I found myself based on allowing myself to become empty. - Allowing yourself to become empty. - Yeah. I just let it all go. And I'd never been in a space that was safe enough to ever explore anything like that before in my life.
And I've been to the far ends of the earth looking without knowing that that's what I was looking for. And in that moment, I knew that that's where I had been stuck. That was everything that I'd been protecting my entire life, I've released. And in that moment I was able to find myself, and I've been finding myself and building myself since that moment in time. - Yeah. Jen, I'm grateful for your willingness to, to go there again, even with the emotion that it brings up.
And if we go to that thing you talked about of moving in the world, feeling your neuroplasticity be different, take us to your life now. Like how do you know it's different? - Um, because I sleep better. , I'm more energetic. I have joy. I've always been a glass half full woman. But this is different. I have no attachment to the outcome of anything. I mean, I have hopes and desires, but the attachment is not for me even professionally.
Um, I always thought that I was a good practitioner with boundaries and no attachment to outcome, but I don't think I really knew what that meant. I, there was transference still with patients. And now, uh, my ability to guide only where people are open enough to go.
Um, I think I've actually had a few patients that have gone through Hoffman, and I'm not a Hoffman preacher, but when you see someone that's ready when, you know, they're just like that juicy ripe fruit that is hungry, I'm like, you know, you might wanna look into this thing . And, um, my relationships with my children is, are so much better. They've all said, oh mama, we wish you'd done that 10 years ago.
You know, my ability to, to listen and be present without an attachment to whatever the story is. Um, and again, it's, it's this outcome based thing. It's like, I don't think I'm explaining it very well. And you - No, you're, you're, you're doing great. And part of what I'm curious about is, 'cause you have some frontline experience as a doc with COVID-19. So take us there and what life was like for you in those early days. - So suddenly we shut down and we weren't allowed to practice at UCSF.
I wasn't allowed to practice in my private practice. And there was a call for frontline workers at UCSF, we could get redeployed to the frontline. And, and I jumped on it and I ended up being the frontline of the frontline. I was the screener for the Covid clinic. So there were certain things that still needed to happen. People still needed to come in for chemotherapy treatments. People still needed to come in for OB appointments, obstetrical appointments.
And so at our main hospital, we had the covid clinic in a private area, and then all the other people that could not have their appointments postponed would come through in the day. And I had to screen all those people and get people that were symptomatic or whose doctors had referred them because they were, uh, people under investigation, uh, for covid up into a very private elevator and up into the CO clinic. And in the beginning there was a lot of fear.
- This was scary times. People didn't know what we now know. - So I, right. And there was two, there were kind of, well there were three kinds of people. There were the people that, like I had a woman run in from a motorcycle, left it running and like threw me boxes of masks, you know, to donate. Then there were the people that were petrified, and if anybody got near them or spoke to them, they like jumped. Like they were so afraid.
And then there, there were the people that were just like, just tell me what to do. I'll do anything you say . Like, where do I stand and where do I go? And you know, U-C-S-F-I props to them too. They were very transparent. Um, watching a grassroots pandemic emergency happen in a world class institution was very impressive. They did an amazing job and they're still doing an amazing job being at the forefront of all of this.
Uh, I've, I've been very happy to follow their lead, but it was a scary time. And then as the weeks went on and all of us in the Covid clinic, none of us were getting covid, right? We were with covid positive patients every single day. And I was like, wow, these CDC guidelines really work mask. And for those of us closed face shields, gloves, hand washing, uh, I was running covid positive tests to the lab and I never got sick. So I have been working since June 1st.
My exposure rate per day still, even though I'm back in practice at UCSF and my practice there is full and people are slowly trickling back to the private practice. Watching humanity adjust the adjustability of humanity has kind of been a really positive thing to me. It's been, I was reflecting on the history of mask wearing since March 16th. And uh, you know, at first it was like, Ooh, this is weird.
You know, and then it was, I feel weird treating you like you might have cooties, you know, to your friends that you would normally hug. And there's been this whole process of like, then it was like, okay, well I'm protecting you from my cooties. I don't think you necessarily have cooties.
And then there was the righteousness around the mask, and then it became anger around those that not wearing mask or wearing mask, because I was just, I'm gonna write a piece on the history of mask, wearing it within a year. - You've seen the whole evolution of, of that. Um, so you were, you were on the front lines right outta the gate in March. You went back to private practice in June, and you mentioned something about seeing the similarities in other pandemics as you've done some research.
- So Chinese medicine has theories around the progression of external opportunistic diseases like covid, things that have contractibility in Chinese medicine. There's four specific levels that a disease process follows, which are called way chi ying and ue, and the WHE levels when it just kind of comes in and affects the lungs. And then the QI level is kind of deeper in the body where you are, um, having a hard time eating and drinking and with gastrointestinal functions.
Um, ying is when there's a fever or something that's really high that can't be subdued. And, and, and then the shui levels when it starts affecting the blood and starts clotting. And COVID ironically, it's as though it read a 3000 year Chinese manuscript. It follows the progression of our historical texts. Exactly. And on a lot of areas, I mean, there's many theories in Chinese medicine with different illness, but this particular theory in this particular virus is, is textbook.
So there's a lot of work being done around the world, around Chinese herbs and the progression of covid and using it in conjunction with Western treatment, but we're not doing it here in the US yet. Um, which makes me sad because it would be so helpful. - And if we were to be doing it, what would we be doing differently?
- First of all, we'd be testing like crazy, um, so that at the first onset of illness, they would start on certain herbs to prevent the illness from going all the way down to the four levels. It's those levels, it's that sway level with the micro clotting and how that's going to affect us. Well, we're, we don't even know yet, right?
We're gonna need 10 or 20 years to see what the sequela of this and the prediction is that there's gonna be a lot of chronic illness and because of the clotting and how it's affecting us both neurologically and in terms of organ and their function, and it would be able to prevent that. - So lingering, um, chronic results from covid that stay around and impact other parts of our wellness. - Correct. - Wow.
- Mm-Hmm. , I just found out that my two very dear friends from my cohort at Hoffman have covid actually right now. So I'm talking to them every day. - Yeah. How are you able to, amidst this threat, this unknown, this pandemic that so many people are scared of and acting and reacting? How do you stay connected in that kind of grace and the way you talk about moving in the world? What helps you do that? - I think part of it is personality. You know, call to action is call to action.
And if I, I mean, I kind of believe anybody that has the tools that are needed in that moment, I've never been, I think a very egocentric person. But I think also having gone through Hoffman, I see the world as me really being just one moving part. And since I, my nature is called to action and I took an oath of being a servant. Literally. I mean, I view medicine as I am. I am the employee of every one of my patients, right?
When I, when I lecture to first year med students, no matter what they ask me to talk about, I always bring it back to humanism and medicine, that being a partner to a patient can be a mutually beneficial shared experience that is less draining than trying to have such clear boundaries when you walk in a room that you end up blocking any opportunity to learn. Right? Once I learn that the CDC guidelines work, I just utilize them.
And I think having people able to come see me and have me be relaxed and confident that we can be in a room together and talk and they can receive treatment safely, is helping keep everybody's anxiety down. Um, it's helping patients. I do a predominantly oncology and women's health and nephrology, but my oncology patients in particular, I help mitigate the side effects of their treatment so much. And so for, to keep myself, I, I operate from spirit in those moments.
Basically when I'm not, I can feel it immediately. I can feel it in the effectiveness of my treatments, I can feel it in the way people respond to my questioning. I can feel it, it just is so obvious to me. - So Jen, part of what you're saying there is that you are more connected to spirit. That's how you've all always been.
It reminds me a bit of a old school, old version of how doctors used to practice, but what you're also saying is that you're more in touch with the tells of not being connected to spirit and you can, uh, self-Correct. Quicker. - Exactly. I think that even with my children, uh, in my relationship, it's like this niggling little, I don't know what it is, voice inside of me and I know it more instantly.
And the big change is that I don't try to justify whatever the behavior was that led to spirit kind of knocking and going, um, you who, you know, I don't have to justify any behaviors before. It's so okay to course correct. - Course correct. Yeah. One of the things I've adopted more recently as a practice for myself, as I've continued to teach this material, I see different things in it. It's one of the beauties of teaching it is that it, my relationship, relationship to it continues to evolve.
But one of the things, may I have humility with my humanity? May I have humility with my humanity? And that's part of you said I I don't get as defensive a resistant or, or, uh, kind of defending it. I forget the word you used there. - I think that, um, and it's something also that I has been, the way you said it perfectly, something that I'm really trying to impart on my children is that you did the best you could. You know, and that's okay.
Like, stop beating yourself up for what you think should have done or you think should have happened, or how you should have behaved or, you know, course correct when you can, you just learn something. And I'm treating myself like that, which is brand new. - Oh, Jen, I'm so grateful for this conversation. Part of part of what I see is the, that kind of, um, associative learning.
And by that I mean connecting, uh, how you treat yourself with how you parent, with how you treat your patients, with how you view the world. That kind of ability to see the through line in all of those relationships, including to self, - Including to self and the newest. And I think one of the most beneficial too is in my romantic relationship, I don't need him to be anybody other than who he is. - What's that? Like? - I'm so bizarre and such freedom , it's so new to me.
I don't need to change him. All I need to do is say what I need and hear whatever it is, you know, be it a really good experience or less than good experience and that I don't need to steer and direct and control and micromanage and get my way. And that has been such great freedom for me. - Jen, what's, you've, you've, we've been talking now 30 minutes and you've uh, kind of taken us through the storyline of pre-process and then beautifully during the process and, and more recently post-process.
And as a mom and as a partner and as a doctor in this pandemic, what's it been like to kind of take this 30,000 foot view of your life over these past years and talk out loud about it. What's that like for you? - Um, I think it's, it feels really good to kind of take this culmination of the past two years and be able to share it, um, uh, in a venue that understands what I'm saying. That is a really nice experience. It makes me feel very calm inside.
Saying it out loud is a lovely reminder of what I have to continue to do, as you've said. And I, and as I said earlier, this process was like, I got these beginning tools and then they continue to unfold for me when I'm not remaining true to my authentic self. And that was another big thing is actually discovering like just who I really am without the need to be defensive and protective, even though I, I hid them in such graceful ways, like just a loving who I am authentically.
So in the bigger view, I am a much happier person. You know, the 30,000 foot view is I don't feel stuck. I am a better practitioner. It's so much easier for me to be in the world. The prickliness of the world, the rigidity of my previous world rarely comes up. And when it does, I know what to do. The minute I'm trying to convince somebody of something else or I think that they need to change or course correct for themselves, I know that is not external, that is internal.
I know how to go inside and look at what I needed in that moment. 'cause what I needed is not to change somebody else or to change a situation. It was something in me and I get to go, I know how to go in and figure that out now. - Oh wow. One of the things I love about that is that it's not as if you're saying that desire to change others is gone. What's different is that you know how to work with it when it does show up through practices. Jen, I'm grateful for this conversation.
- Me too. - You are headed off to work, headed on to the front lines. Thank you. - Am and what a treat to get to talk to you for a half an hour. - , likewise. It's mutual. Thanks, Jen. - You know, I wanna take a moment and just, um, mention white sulfur springs and to know, I wanna share with you just what a collective consciousness went out with love and support for the loss of so much of white sulfur springs.
And we're all so sorry and for all of you and the students that were there and the materials and that were lost. And we're also here for you all. So anything you guys need, ask, ask, ask. - Thank you. Thank you. It has been amazing to see people come together and respond and old students, um, come out and share that kind of collective sadness, that collective grief, and almost in the same sentence, roll up their sleeves and say, let me know when and how. And it's, it's been beautiful.
- Yeah. We're like the Hoffman ha habitat for humanity. Everybody's in, you know, what do you need? We'll go. We all thought about going and doing little blessings on the land to bring the energy back in. There's all kinds of thoughts. - Hoffman, habitat for Humanity. - . - Dr. Jen Ashby, it has been great to speak with you. Thanks very much - Drew Horning is lovely to talk to you too. Have a great day. - You too. - Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza Insi.
I'm the CEO and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. - And I'm Ra Rossi Hoffman, teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute Foundation. - Our mission is to provide people greater access to the wisdom and power of love - In themselves, in each other, and in the world. To find out more, please go to hoffman institute.org.