- Welcome to Love's Everyday Radius, a podcast brought to you by the Hoffman Institute. My name is Drew Horning and on this podcast we catch up with graduates for conversations around how their internal work in the process is informing their life outside the process. How their spirit and how their love is living in the world around them, their everyday radius. Hey everybody, welcome to the Hoffman Podcast. Today we have teacher Joe Mattoon with us.
Joe, it is so good to be having this conversation with you. Welcome to the show. - Oh, thank you Drew. I love any excuse to hang out with you, my friend, - And to talk Kaufman a little bit. Right? - Absolutely. - Joe has been a teacher for, uh, almost five years and prior to that has run her own, uh, consulting business. Would you describe a little bit of that work, Joe? - Yeah. Um, so for nine years now I've had my own consulting business. It started as a human resources consulting business.
'cause my first career was I was a human resources executive in a bunch of organizations. And then I moved into my own business and it's morphed over time. It sort of started out as pure human resources, but then it really focused on leadership training and executive coaching. And I primarily just do the coaching at this point in time. But it's been a fun journey from my first career to this career. - I bet. And how long ago did you do the process?
- 17 years ago. Damn. - I didn't realize it was that long ago. - Right? I know it feels like it was yesterday in some ways, but yeah. In 2004, - What motivated you to decide to do this thing? Whose tagline is when you're serious about change? - Well, I actually went after, my husband did. So my husband Walt was introduced to the process by a therapist in Boulder.
And uh, interestingly enough, a therapist who had never done the process but had seen such positive change in clients went ahead and recommended it to him. And he was one of my biggest things. The change in him when he came home was like, wow, I want whatever he's has. 'cause that's pretty extraordinary. Um, and really changed up the dynamics of our relationship, even with him just doing the work. And my, uh, my stepdaughters, I have two grown stepdaughters.
One was still at home and she really noticed the change in her dad, but it also was my personal need to go to. 'cause even though I had so many of the trappings of what would seem like a really great life, and it was a great life, I felt like, I don't know, it's hard to describe. I always struggled to describe this a little bit. I almost felt like my life was shrinking. Like it was getting small. I had a good job, I had a good family, but I just didn't feel very happy.
And it felt like it was just gonna get smaller and smaller and more boring. And I didn't wanna go through life like that. And I saw the change in Walt and I was like, that's seems like a good direction to go. - It's, oh God, I got the image of walls, uh, slowly closing in. - Totally. - Yeah. That, that, that can be a suffocating experience, that slow cutting off of life force.
Joe, you know, it's so interesting because I think part of what the process helps people do is come to terms with this duality of their lives, which is that, as you said, I had all the trappings of it, and yet it was getting smaller. That I think it's true for a lot of people that, that they do feel like they have a good life. That, that their childhood was pretty good. And, and yet there are still things that don't work that need help areas that need attention and love and care.
Is that part of what you were coming to terms with yourself? - Absolutely. I mean, you summarized it and I even hear this from, um, students that I now have as a teacher who say, yeah, but comparably my life was, or my childhood was great, or whatever. But your point is exactly right. Despite the trappings, we all learned things and we all struggled with things and it impacts us and it does make our world smaller, or at least that was my experience of it.
And so yes, your your articulation of my experiences right on the right on the nose. - . Thank you. So, so if you were to take us all those years ago, take us into your process. Like where are you? Do you remember what day it was? Some moment in time that felt profound for you? - Oh, and, and having to pick one, but let's see. We do a lot of cathartic work throughout the week and I resonated with all of the cathartic work really well.
But near the very end of the week, there is one last cathartic experience that's done in a ritualistic manner. And that was it. In fact, we even teach in the process that it's kind of the coming together of all the work in the week. And it was for me because what I experienced in that week was this, coming into myself, I felt my power, but it wasn't an aggressive or negative power. I had my voice. I felt probably freer.
And I actually felt like for the first time in my life, I was the driver of my life and the choices that I got to make moving forward where opportunity. And so that moment will forever. That feeling of pure joy, pure power and focus on the future was one of the most extraordinary moments of my week.
- Yeah. You know, and sometimes when people who might be listening say, okay, wow, pure power, pure joy, but to have the cellular experience, the embodied experience of those words, it takes it to a whole nother level. I, we could go up or we could go down to a grounded place. But I'm imagining that when you talk about that power Joe, that joy, that your voice, that that that experience during the process was quite visceral for you. - Yes. I mean it was truly embodied.
And the interesting thing Drew, is that so often, you know, I I had done other programs and you do have that kind of, I don't know, high at the end of the program, whether it's a weekend or a week or all that. But what's so fascinating was, even though it was so vibrant in that moment, and as you can hear clear in my brain, 17 years later, the reality is I still have that feeling like you said, in a more grounded way. Even to this day from what I experienced 17 years ago.
That's what was different for me in Hoffman than all the other programming I'd ever done. - So what did post-process Joe, uh, do differently or how did the process shape your life afterwards? - So many ways. Um, certainly it, it further enhanced the relationship both with Walt, my husband, and with my stepdaughters. And you can imagine with Wal having done the process too, it gave us a, a language, a shared language and a shared experience.
So we've been joking recently and pandemic and, and being locked in together, how much the work we had done, especially Hoffman really has made this a joyful time for us together versus what could have been, you know, kind of a disaster. So there was that impact. The other place that really impacted me was in my work. Um, I was still a in-house executive at the time that I did the process. And I had really had this love hate relationship with my career and human resources.
I kind of fell into that I was actually government girl first. 'cause it's all about building community. Human resources just happened to be the role I took within local government and I really didn't like it. And what I think the process did for me was to help me uncover sort of the stuff that was getting in the way of really enjoying my work.
And so I did that and more importantly, it gave me the courage when I knew that portion of my career was was done to then say, yeah, I'm gonna go out and start a business. I would've never considered doing something like that if I hadn't had the tools. The effort cleaned out the debris that the process did for me. And starting my business was such a, a joy for me and has given me much of the tools that I now get to bring into my teaching too. - That's fantastic. The courage to that risk.
What in, in your work with, with people in, in, in that part of your professional life, what do you notice about change and how people show up? And in your consulting work, what are some of the themes you've seen? - I think one of the things that at least our culture has a bias towards, and I certainly was this way, was I was trying to do everything, especially in my career, outta my brain, right? We call it the intellect in the Hoffman process.
But I was just trying to figure out the world and trying to succeed and just be this, I don't know, Mr. Spock, like creature going through the world. And so one of the things that that I think, first of all, I saw a change in myself, but then it's also, I see it in the work I do in my consulting and, and some of my leadership training and coaching is the brain is not sufficient. Our intellect is not enough to really be successful and we're whole people.
And when I started to be able to bring the rest of me into my work, both in leadership and impacting an organization, starting to see the change in people, they really responded to it in so many different ways. And I worked in, you know, I worked in municipal government, so we're talking a lot of people that are in trades like the, um, blue collar trades. You have police and fire, you have engineers. I have a, I worked with a lot of people that were very head and intellect oriented.
And as I started to bring more of my heart and my spirit and my authenticity into my work, both how I responded, but also how I started to teach it to others, realizing how hungry people really are for this and in groups that I wouldn't have expected it. You know, I wouldn't expect to walk into a group of supervisors that work in the trades and want them to, or that they would want to talk about how they can show up with more empathy or compassion or come from their intuition.
And you know what, once I got outta my own head and started bringing this stuff into my work, you know, not Hoffman tools, but the ideas of our full self, I saw them eating it up and I saw them starting to bring it into their own work. And the changes, the ripple effect that had on the people they led, led and the services they provide, it continues to inspire me.
So as I continue in both my coaching and when I still do some leadership training, I go as much for this part of it as all those old traditional intellect, brain-based strategies and tools that one expects and kind of training in those types of topics. - I love that. And and as you were surprised how much they wanted it, how much they were craving it, were, were they surprised that they wanted it and needed it?
In other words, did they come in at the beginning and say, you know what, we wanna get out of our intellect and we wanna get into our feelings , or, or did they not know they needed it and once you started supporting them in, in doing it, they, they loved it? - That's such an awesome question. Um, I think it's generational.
It's so interesting because what I find is folks that are a little bit older, you know, fifties up, they were the ones that were surprised, oh, I didn't know I needed this and now I'm really excited to have it, even though they might not even articulate it, even though that's a true statement. Um, but actually one of the things that gives me such great hope for our future is that so many of the younger folks that I do train with their executive work, they're already there to, to some degree.
I don't know if it's just happening culturally and people are talking about it more, but there's actually more already knowledge of it, desire for it, and willingness to take it on with the younger generations. And it gives me great hope for our future - . That's good. I love, I love you. Tying that to hope for our future. Um, Joe, you know, I, maybe this is part of the reason you love to teach about this thing we call recycling.
And I know you, you love this piece and I hadn't thought of this question before, but what is it about helping the brain rewire and helping people get into their bodies? And, and, and you know, for those who haven't taken the process, there are certain pieces day after day, step after step and teachers take certain pieces and then pass it off to the different teacher. And I know Joe, what is it about recycling that you love to teach so much?
- I think it's because I've always been so results oriented. I'm definitely wired that direction and recycling, which is just simply a version of, you know, working with the neuroplasticity of our brains and, and being able to help us rewire it to a way that is more authentic. Uh, it's the results that come from it. I tell people all the time, you know, you need the whole process to, to build into learning how to use that tool and make it really work. But that's the tool that changes lives.
And so that's why I, I feel like sometimes I feel like the um, oh what is it? I'm like a preacher for recycling because I've personally experienced the power of it. And I truly, as I, especially my coaching with students after the process, some of the ones that do it is hearing the long-term change effects. You know, if you just do the process and you leave, you'll still experience change. It's amazing. But when people take on recycling that change the curve just goes up and up so much faster.
And I even, I often share my own personal experience of it. 'cause one of the behaviors patterns that I learned in my childhood that I had mastered so completely was self-critical. I mean, I am like the maven of self-critical. I can do it in my personal world, I can do it at work and all that. I took that on with this reconditioning tool that we teach recycling and I took it on for a month and there was no magic to it, but I was just like, I'm over this.
And my personal experience Drew, is I used to run at about a 10 with self-critical and now it runs at about a two and it's because of that tool. And so that's why I get super excited and do my best to teach people it because it's the game changer in my opinion.
- I love that you results oriented, uh, teacher you, and when it comes to those kinds of patterns and that those kinds of, like for example that criticism, I imagine it's, it's reducing the duration of the pattern, the frequency with which that pattern shows up and the intensity of the pattern. What do you notice around those three things? Duration, frequency, intensity, - All of the above.
So you're right, number one, it doesn't last as long and it's interesting 'cause now especially with self-critical, I see that little mofo when he shows up and, and so I don't bite at it as often as I used to. Certainly have moments where I still go into that pattern, but I'm even able to catch it ahead of time. It isn't nearly as intense as it used to be.
And you're right, I'll go through days or I don't know if I ever go through a week where I don't do self-critical 'cause it is a pretty hardwired one in for me, but I'll go days without it. And it's like, wow, that's a changer in my life. Can you imagine how much more life's energy I get by not wallowing in self-critical. It's pretty awesome actually. - I love that. How much life force energy because patterns are fundamentally life sucking and connecting to spirit is profoundly life-giving.
And we do, if anybody has a pattern of exhaustion or fatigue, then all patterns end up making us exhausted. And when we connect to our source, it's profoundly life giving. Do you, do you feel that too? - Yeah, and I can always tell when I've done a recycling, when it's really a gift from spirit and authenticity because it'll be, I I actually get amused sometimes. 'cause my intellect might've said, okay, the right answer would've been x be more grounded where spirit gives me this crazy thing.
Go look at the coyotes out in open space. Right? And so there's just this playful, joyful experience of of being in that authenticity and getting to focus that direction. - Part of what makes a good post process is people's willingness to do this tool, this practice on a regular basis. What else do you know about people's post processes?
I mean, you and I can safely say that a huge percentage of the people who take the process have amazing experiences and that percentage drops a little bit after the process. So what's your sense about what makes a great post-process for people? - One of the things that we talk about, and I truly believe this myself, is picking a practice. Um, 'cause I think especially in our culture, we're all such doers.
And part of what I love about the process is we talk about let's be human beings instead of human doings. So when people choose one practice to incorporate in their life recycling awesome practice, but even whether it's just that simple check-in each day with spirit or the quadri check-in where you get to check in with all four different aspects of it. Or I have people that say what they do is they actually just have a dance party with their kids once a week.
Whatever that practice is that supports the work that people that I talk to that seem to have the best long-term results, it's because they've really incorporated something into their life, into their daily experience on that. And then certainly over time, you know, you bring in, I I always think of it as kind of like in the kitchen, right? We use, we probably use the knife and cutting board every day in the kitchen.
So that's what those practices are, but then all those other tools are still there and you pull 'em out for your special needs. You know, you only use your immersion blender when you're making certain recipes. So certainly using some of the other tools. And that's the other thing I see is when people know which tool to utilize or to reach out to get help with when they are having a challenge or a struggle.
That's the other thing that seems to really be the magical combination, - But it's ongoing work. It's, it's in a way never ending. It's lifelong learning. - Absolutely. Yeah. You get to choose the trajectory. You can have a slow trajectory with little gains or you add in those practice or use of a tool. That trajectory is gonna change amazingly. - What have you seen in this covid pandemic? What have you noticed different and what are students and grads struggling with?
What are they navigating during this historically unique time? - Realizing how much we are creatures of connection. That's one of the themes that comes up all the time. For some people they're isolated 'cause they are able to, you know, work at home but maybe they're alone. And so really understanding how much they've lost that connection and that sense of community for other people.
There's too much connection in community 'cause it's the whole gang at home and they're on top of each other and it's the struggle. And so it's a different kind of challenge. It's about how do we get back to the pleasurable part. 'cause right now we're just going through all the life is happening and all the challenge of work and school and all of those things.
Those would be some of the things I've also, it's interesting, I've, I've been talking to a lot of my coaching clients, former students right now about them kind of understanding how busy our lives were pre pandemic between devices and work and all of those things.
And so I guess this is more on a kind of a positive trend I'm hearing is how many people that are saying, you know, I don't wanna go back to that as much as I wanna go back to being able to give people hugs and go out for dinner and travel. What I hear a lot of people saying, this needs to be a new reset for me about actually being engaged and being present when I'm out in the world versus all those things that tend to distract and take us out of ourselves.
- So there's a sense that, um, maybe I don't want life to go back to the way it was, uh, pre pandemic. Maybe there's some silver linings in the way life is now. - Yes. That and like I said, the community piece and, and really hearing people talk about wanting to create better connection and sort of kind of do a fresh start even on how they find community.
One of our leaders, Raz always talks about there's healing in community and I think there's a lot of people really realizing that that is true and that they wanna enter community again in a healing manner instead of a weird social comparison. All that kind of other stuff that can get in the way when we're with people.
- Yeah. I I just read an article in the New York Times about shared grief and how with upwards of half a million people now more every day having died from Covid that we aren't able to grieve together. And it's that interconnectedness that, that sharing of grief that allows us to heal. And so the the point was that there's truncated grief that we're not able to move forward because we can't be together. That's a, a huge cost of this lack of connection, Joe.
- Yeah, but I, again, and, and I tend to be optimistic so I'll take it to a hopeful place, is this seems to have given awareness to that to a lot of folks. And, and now of course the challenge is when things do get back to whatever our new normal is, is how to keep these learnings and these understandings so that that move forward doesn't fall back into old behaviors and patterns too.
- That's great. So what's it like, I'm gonna just ask colleague to colleague here, just between us, uh, , what what's it like to to be a teacher at the Hoffman Institute to work for this organization that supports transformation in the world? I guess I'll share for me one of the things I notice is that if I'm working with students during this pandemic, if I'm working with grads but I have one 30 minute call with a team that even though we're not together, it gives me such, I'll put it this way.
I have never been as glad to be a Hoffman teacher as I have during the pandemic because it has supported and elevated my mood to be a part of something larger than me. - Yeah. So I've always chosen mission-driven organizations where I shared their mission and the beauty of working for the Hoffman Institute is I am so in love with the mission of helping people change.
And the fact that in my day-to-day workings even in the organization feels like every little step we do, even the little administrative things we do are a step toward actually bringing this work into the world. And to constantly have friends and colleagues that I know share that and who we work together.
Even when we have disputes over things, knowing that that mission is living in all of us and driving all of us, that just gives me the kind of satisfaction that I felt occasionally in those other organizations I worked in. 'cause I had great people and great mission, but this stuff happens on a day-to-day basis drew. And that feeds me. I no longer wake up in the morning going, ugh, I have to go to work today.
I actually finally get to wake up and say I get to work with some pretty incredible people who are creating change in the world. And that's, it doesn't get much better than that. - Yeah. I've always felt like part of our job is to not just do what we do when students are around, but when grads and students aren't around, how do we show up? And I, I feel like we are more and more and more walking the talk. This isn't just what we teach others, but it's how we try and live by amongst ourselves.
- Yes, absolutely. And as a person who's gone in and done a lot of work in a lot of dysfunctional organizations and absolutely are we human and are we a human organization? We have our own challenges and stuff, but you're right, it just feels like the mark is clear and the mission is clear and we're all rowing in the same direction. - You know, Joe, you are a seven on the Enneagram. What are sevens known for, Joe? - Well, optimism would be one of the things that we're known - For.
We've seen that here. We've enjoyed that optimism. - . Yeah, absolutely. Um, playfulness, we tend to be very fun loving and I'll just say, boy, that was one of the things the process gave me back was my sense of play and fun. Um, and that, so I try to bring that into my teaching 'cause we deal with really weighty stuff. And so to bring some of that playfulness in that. And I think the other thing sevens are really great at is we see possibility.
And so that's the other thing in both the organization and in my students and in my colleagues, I always see possibility that feeds me and I think serves me in my roles in the Hoffman Institute. - Yeah. You know, during my process it was, it was profound and deep and soulful and quite serious at times. And then when we got to this place about play later in the week, I was like, okay, hold up, hold up. Is this, uh, is this spiritual growth work? Wait, what's going on here?
And the extent to which people, you're right Joe have forgotten how to play. It's crazy, isn't it? - And for those that want to have a logical reason, the research shows the power of play and fun in our lives. So if we need to have an intellectual reason to do it all that's there to, but yeah, we can do this - Sometimes the, the onboarding of the intellect so that then the intellect can let go and in a way give, give its blessing to this non intellect activity. - Exactly. - Joe, what's it like?
We've been chatting for a while here. What's it like to, to remember your process, to talk about your work, to share about this institute that we work for and teaching? What do you notice? What's it like to talk about all this? - That's such an awesome question. It's grounding for me Drew. You know, it's so interesting 'cause like I said, I always think of sevens as we're like the TERs of the world.
We bounce and the work and remembering my own personal process, also seeing the work that my students do and it's really them doing the work. It is so incredibly grounding and it just makes me feel hopeful and peaceful, but in a really quiet, calm sort of way. - You know, you, you raise an interesting point for when times get hard and things feel bleak, what do we turn to to give us hope? What do we turn to to help revitalize our energy and feel grounded in the face of so much challenge?
And I love that part of what helps you do that is referencing the work your students do and the content of the material and our shared experience together as teachers. That's beautiful, Joe. Thank - You. And I would the add to that, one of the greatest gifts for me personally, but I also believe the community has been our Instagram, um, quad checks and appreciation and gratitudes.
And as much as we get feedback on how that's grounding to them, I have to tell you every time I am leading one of those, I always feel filled up and grounded and grateful after the experience because I don't know, somehow through the phone or whatever it is, I feel the energy of the other participants and knowing that we have that tool every day has been grounding for me. - I think it's such a paradox. I so agree with you Joe. When I go live, there is this connection.
It's like, wow, people all over the world are doing this grounding practice together separately and yet together. Crazy. - I'm constantly, I don't know, not baffled isn't the right word 'cause it isn't confusing, but just surprised and and excited by that experience. - Joe, I'm so grateful for this conversation you've made my day. - Thank you Drew. And um, do I get to tell them that we're twins, we're only a day apart in age, so I always feel connected to you on many levels as friend
and colleague and as birthday shares. Yes. - Born a day apart. - Right, exactly. - And fellow Coloradans. Thank you Joe. Thank you - Drew. - Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza in Grassi. I'm the CEO and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. - And I'm Ra Rossi Hoffman, teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute Foundation. - Our mission is to provide people greater access to the wisdom and power of love - In themselves, in each other, and in the world.
To find out more, please go to hoffman institute.org.