- Welcome to Love's Everyday Radius, a podcast brought to you by the Hoffman Institute. My name is Drew Horning and on this podcast we catch up with graduates for conversations around how their internal work in the process is informing their life outside the process. How their spirit and how their love is living in the world around them, their everyday radius. - Hey everybody. Welcome to the Hoffman Process.
My name is Drew Horning and I'm happy to be with you today and happy to be having a conversation with Ben Smith Peterson. Ben, welcome to the program. Would you introduce yourself? - Yeah, I am Ben Smith Peterson. Uh, I am a stunt man. I've been a stunt man for coming up on 12 years now, which is a very long time. And I am originally Australian, as I'm sure you all can hear.
I met my wife on a film in South Africa about seven years ago, and I followed her here to California and I've been in California ever since. Uh, and I did my process after she did hers about a year and a half ago, uh, in July, I guess of 2019. - God, it's so funny. I had a, um, a question teed up about your process, but I just have to, I don't know how many people who are listening have met Stunt man, but what does it mean to say you're a stunt man?
- Well, you know, I think a lot of people would think it means you have no fear of, of things or danger, and it definitely doesn't, I definitely have a lot of fear.
I think that, you know, being a stunt man, a being a good stunt man is about being able to analyze a situation, uh, and a potentially dangerous situation and kind of like look at all the possible outcomes, look at the most likely ones, look at the least likely ones, and try to kind of get as many of those down as possible so that we can have a singular outcome, which is a safe stunt that tells the story and is as big as we possibly can do it.
- Wow, you just broke down and analyzed the context of a, of a stunt in it. That's a beautiful, uh, analyzing the outcome, creating the best possible one with the least possible risk. What's one of the craziest things? What's one of the stunts you remember? What were you doing? - Well, look, this is a simple one, but it's crazy. I did a movie in 2018 called Triple Frontier, where I got to hang out of the hatch of, uh, this big old Russian helicopter.
I think it's an M eight or something like that. It's a big old Russian helicopter, which is the world's most crashed helicopter, but , that stat looks like that because it's also the world's most, uh, produced helicopter or whatever. They've, they've made the most of them. But I got to hang out of this thing, you know, I guess the scene was I was trying to, trying to get something off of the hull of the, the chopper.
And then I, we hit some turbulence and I fall and I'm kind of hanging by my hands, you know, and that is one that most people would say, oh, that's gotta be the most difficult stunt, you know, but it's, but it's actually the most simple and it's the most, it's the most easy to analyze because there's only two outcomes, which is some kind of failure in the rigging equipment that would cause me to fall from the helicopter or the helicopter crashing.
That's it. Two, two very simple outcomes with, with granted like a very, you know, it's very high risk, but, well, I guess there's three outcomes because the third outcome, which is what happened, is that we do the stunt with no problems at all, you know? - And when people say, oh, that must be fake, what the stunt shows is that in fact, no, it's not the actor, but, but it is real. It did happen, - Correct.
Yeah. It's, you know, it's where we get so lucky now when we get to do those real stunts, because most of the time they'll just be like, oh, if we can CGI, some legs hanging outta the bottom of the helicopter, um, which is, you know, rightly or wrongly, you know, it's good to not put people's lives in danger, I suppose. But also, man, it looks way cooler, you know, when it, when it's real, you can tell.
Everyone can tell, you know, so I'm glad we got to do it for real, - And I'm just glad we got to talk about that. I, thanks for indulging me, but take us to a moment in your process. You, you did it how long ago? A year and a half. - Year and a half ago. - So where are you, Ben, in your process? What's happening? Take us there. - Whenever somebody, especially Hoffman, people will ask and we can open up about the process when they ask me like, what was the moment for you?
The moment is, uh, I think it's day two and I'm kind of holding baby me and having a conversation with Baby Me. And before that, you know, I was really, I was ready to do the process. I had known three, four, maybe five people who had done it. And the, the one piece of advice everyone gives is just do it. Go all out from day one. Don't wait for the thing that grabs you and then go, okay, now I'm in, because you'll miss everything up to that point. - Oh, interesting. Uh, suggestions and advice.
So you said to yourself from the beginning, I'm all in, - I said, I'm all in. I was like, even if there's something comes up, you know, even if some, a teacher says something to you that you disagree with, that doesn't invalidate anything else that's going on in the process, it's just one person says something you don't agree with. Just take what works for you and leave what doesn't. But there's no point in being, for me, being combative with people that you're asking to teach you something.
You go in all in, take what you can, and then at the end of the day, leave what doesn't sit with you. You know, - There's a good little life philosophy, but, so there you are holding baby, you - Holding baby me. And even though I'm all in on this process, I do think that I am tough as nails and that I'm not gonna be crying or having any kind of emotional vulnerability , but I'm holding baby me.
And I've, I've apologized to baby me and I just completely broke and, you know, I was crying and just, just as such a strong moment of vulnerability. And what's it - Like to remember that now? - Yeah, you know, it's just, it's, it's actually really good to think back on it in such a deep way. 'cause it was such an important moment for me to let my walls down for myself and, and feel vulnerable without feeling weak.
You know, it's very easy to connect vulnerability with weakness, you know, in that moment I did feel very safe and I just felt a kind of a relief to be like, um, this doesn't, this doesn't reflect on me as a, as a tough guy, I guess, which is a, a piece of armor i, I like to wear around, apparently. - And so what helped you release that armor? What, and you mentioned apologizing. What were some of those words that you were saying to baby you?
- You know, I think I said, I'm so sorry and it's not your fault. And then I said, I was gonna protect you. You know, I think it's not your fault. It's a big one. You know, that it's just like, there's like a relief in feeling that it's not your fault. 'cause you do take responsibility for things and there's, and there's something powerful in giving that piece of information too. Do you know what I mean?
You are both sides of the coin in that exchange. And, - And of course when you say you are both sides of the coins, you mean I'm - I'm both sides of the coin. Yeah, of course. Exactly. Yeah. I'm both sides of the coin in that exchange. And, and that's, so - You're, you are the one both giving the words to yourself and you are so also are the one receiving those words. - Yeah, exactly. - What's, what's that like to be that person both sides of the coin in that moment?
- Well, it's very grounding and it's, you know, it's, it's kind of, to be able to, to be cared for and be the carer, it's like this real feeling of like, you've got this, like you, you have it all here to handle anything. You know, you have the, you really have the power to be pushing yourself through these things. And that's like a very, you know, I think that's a really, I I like to use the word magic.
I think that's a really magical realiz, a magic realization, a profound realization, you know, that you can carry yourself through anything. - Yeah. And to have the embodied experience of that truth. It's almost like the cellular truth of that construct. You're - Totally right. - Kristin Neff talks about one of the things she wishes for people is that she wishes they could both have two things at once.
And as you were talking, I realized, well, this is what she's talking about is to both be the person who's hurting and be the person who's nurturing that hurt. And she says she, she wishes people could consider that they can have two experiences at once. - Exactly. - So that was only day two, Ben, what, that's a pretty . What happened the rest of your process, , - That was such a, that was such an important thing for the rest of the process.
There was a day, there was a writing exercise that we did that just changed my perspective on my relationships where with my relationship with my father and a relationship with my mother, and also has mana, it's something that really stays with me, with everyone that I encounter now.
It's very easy for me now to look at someone who's causing me some kind of issue and kind of understand where that's coming from and very easily have compassion for it, for the, for a behavior that, you know, is maybe aggressive towards me or is, or whatever, you know, could be anything. And go, like, I, I can see where I think that comes from and be like, I'm cool with that.
You know, I still might not want to interact with that person, but it's so nice to be able to go, like, to have empathy for somebody's behavior and understanding around it and be like, you know, you can, even if you sever a relationship because of the way it is playing out, still having understanding around them, it stops it from being such a painful exercise. Does that make sense?
- It does. You know, we, as you're talking, I'm reminded of the phrase we use in the process a bunch, which is that remember the children that they once were, the children that they once were. And is that part of what you're talking about, remembering the origin of those patterns? - It's exactly what I'm talking about. It's exactly what I'm talking about. You know, rambling my way through it.
But that's, that's really simply one of the greatest things that came out of the process for me was you just can do it for me. I can do it in a minute now to remember so the child that somebody once was, and, and see those things as, see these behaviors that are coming up. There's not them, you know, even though they're doing them, sometimes these things aren't them.
And you can, you know, you can work around them and it's hard, it's hard without getting too specific about different interactions you have with people, you know, but like Right, - That's true. You're probably remembering all the relationships that it happens in. - There is a stunt guy that I love. I've worked with him forever and he's got some real hurt, hurt in him and it causes him to act in some ways that are just like, Hey man, quit it. Like stop. - Is he mean or is he aggressive?
- Oh yeah, he's mean, he's aggressive, he's moody, you know, but he's great. He's still great and I, I see him, I've known him since he was a child, so, you know, I see him, I see through it all. And one of the things that's been really useful for me, and this is quite, this is after the process I was with these guys, we're all, you know, stunt guys often will live together in a, in a big house during a film, which means, you know, they get in arguments,
they're all housemates. That's pretty - Intimate. - I love being very close to everybody on a team because even though we are safe, you know, 98% of the time, sometimes there's a situation that'll come outta nowhere that nobody prepared for. And you've gotta think on the fly and you want to know that the guys who are watching your back in those situations love and care for you and know you and understand you. - That's a lot of trust.
- It's a lot of trust and, and quite honestly, I've worked many times where it's not there. I am very grateful to work with the guys that I do work with to have that, for example, this one dude can be a lot to be around. And one of the things that the process gave me was not so much to be able to talk to him and be like, Hey man, this is a pat pattern and you need to blah blah and you need to blah, blah that. 'cause that's just silly, you know?
But to be able to go to the next guy who's really feeling the effects of being around him and go, Hey, just try thinking about this with me. Like, imagine him as a little kid. Like see, see this is like a kid who, and he's saying like, Hey man, love me. I'm not, I'm not getting something from you. These, this, the way he's behaving is because maybe he wants something.
Maybe he wants you to acknowledge him in a different way, you know, and just to be able to kind of talk guys through that, in that sense was so advantageous. And the crew really was a lot closer on that trip. And I attribute it to me being fresh out of the process and just having so much patience and compassion to kind of keep everyone connected. Well, - I was gonna say patience, compassion.
And there's also a sense of leading from your heart because you didn't just make it about you and he, but you went to this third guy who you saw hurting and led, and it sounds like that contributed to the overall team dynamics and trust building at - The very least within that, within that piece of the crew, you know? For sure. It definitely did. - So tell me about what about the primary relationship, parents or marriage? How did, because I know, didn't your wife suggest the process for you?
- She sure did. Well, no, , she didn't actually, you know, so we had a friend, we, we had a few friends do it, actually my sister did it in Australia years ago. And she was like, Ben, you should do this. And I was like, yeah, yeah, whatever. I just ignored it, you know? And then we kind of slowly had a friend over here do it, and they were like, it was amazing. And then another one and another one, and then ri went, I want to go do it. And I was like, okay, you do.
You, you know, and she disappeared for a week and, and when she came back, she just like levitated into the room and I was like, what , what is going on here? You know? And she was just like so authentically herself and connected to her spirit, spirituality and all of these things that all of a sudden I was, I felt like a neanderthal. And I was like, I need to go into this process.
Like, I don't even know how we can, how I can not just because, you know, she's, she's such a spiritual person when she does something that increases that she's, she's got laser beams coming out of her eyes. So, - So this is interesting because part of what you're saying is that her growth and her development created a bigger gap in your marriage and that gap you used as motivation to continue to grow yourself.
- Yeah, I mean, you know, she is like, as a person, she's, she's like an inspirational person to me. She always is. And so definitely there was a gap, like a gap sounds like a splitting apart, but there wasn't, it was just like suddenly I was like, I was like, you've, you are working on something, you're vibrating at a totally different level right now. And, and it's just inspired me. And I was like, I want to get in as soon as I can.
And I started calling the process and hassling them and I was like, when someone drops out, you just call me. I'm coming, right, I'll be there. You know? And someone dropped out within I think a, a week or two of her coming back and I was straight up there. - Wow. And what was it like for you when you returned to her and to the marriage?
- I mean, it was great. One of my big problems I was having, and, and it was a problem for her too, was the more stunt work I was doing, I would come back from my jobs rather mechanical, you know, or, or kind of cold because I'd just been concentrating on doing difficult things and sometimes dangerous things. And it's a, it's not a particularly emotional job.
Like the emotions don't really serve, um, you and I'm, well that - I was about to say, isn't that Norma, it sounds like such an understatement because if you got too emotional on the job, that'd be problematic, wouldn't it? You have to kind of push 'em down. - You totally do. You know, and it's, I I, I don't wanna make stunts sound more tough than it is.
I think it's really common in the crew section of the film industry altogether, that guys, people are like, being emotional about things here doesn't, doesn't play out. You know, it's just a very, it's a very high pressure job. And yeah, stunts is definitely a, an even more high pressure part of that. And we get very unemotional. I also spent time with just a lot of men during that situation, and I was coming back and I was just finding it really difficult to be vulnerable with her.
So that was the, I mean, that was the thing. I came back and, and I was there, you know, I was like, me when we first met, you know, for whatever reason, when we first met, I, I wasn't, I wasn't having this kind of, this coldness about me, even though I had been working and doing stunts. I think when we first met, there was something about her that just broke all my walls down.
But, uh, over time, over years of getting back on set, I just built 'em back up and yeah, we, I did the process and I came back and I was, we were really connected, you know? - Yeah. You know, John Gottman, who does lots of marital research says that, I mean, he puts it quite bluntly. He says, men have to be open to being influenced by their wives. And he says, in my research, I just find that men stonewall and get defensive and, and consider being influenced as a negative thing.
And so it sounds like, I mean, that's easier said than done. How, how do you, how did you navigate the openness of your heart with this person that's so inspiring for you, your wife? I - Wish I could say it was something that I did on purpose, but it's not, I, we had such a profound connection when we met each other. There was just, I just did it, you know?
I just was like, I just, everything she told me, just when we would talk about spirituality and when we would talk about trying to be better people, I had none of that in my life growing up. Zero. My dad used to joke, he thought it was funny to tell people we were like, satanists. Um, he's just was just such an anti, anti-religious anti spirituality person. He is just not really there for it, you know? Um, so I had none of it growing up. And then I met her and she was like, what about this?
What about that? She was like, try this E size. And I was like, huh, yeah. Whoa, this is crazy. You know? Um, and she just was, she's always like, so far, not that it's a race, but she's just so far ahead of me in that world that it's, it's so easy to be like, to look up to her and, and be like, you know, you're, you're not a master, but you've got, you know, I'm a martial artist, so I go, you've got a black belt and I've got a blue belt and I'm, I'll listen to what you say, you know?
- Yeah. That, that, uh, to allow that inspiration from connecting with your wife to be a source of, uh, of inspiration for you in your life. Not to let it make you seem less than, but to let it inspire you to show up better every day. - Yeah, I mean, I think you can be taught by anybody, anybody can be a teacher. I think it's such a mistake.
People make that, you know, they need someone to be a certain sex or be a certain rank or be a certain anything to be able to receive like any kind of lesson, let alone some, sometimes something really profound. And you could be checking out at the grocery store and someone could go like, how are you today? And you're like, alright. And they're like, it's a beautiful day, isn't it? And really look at you in the eye and it just changed your whole day. You have to be open to that.
- I love this being inspired and being allowed to have someone be your teacher who isn't a guru, who isn't somebody you pay, but is a, a normal everyday interaction. That person becomes your teacher could be a dog, a a pet. - Yeah. It, it could come from anywhere and you just gotta be open for it, you know? You don't have to, you don't have to be in a school environment to learn something and you just never know.
Like, man, I've had some profound conversations with my father-in-Law, just standing in the kitchen, uh, when I'm in a hurry to go somewhere else and he'll just lay something on me. I'm like, man, it's crazy. You know? Or, or with Riley or with, you know, you just, you never know. So, - So Ben, do you, you talked about being a martial artist. Is that a regular part of your practice? - Well, it wasn't until this virus showed up.
That's really kind of put a dampener on people's ability to grapple with each other. So I think I've been off the mats for about a year now. I actually had to get a surgery last December that put me off the mats for four months, and then the virus came and, and I've been off since then. But yeah, martial arts is a, became a very big part of my life. When I came to America.
It had, it was something that was on the periphery for me because we do fighting in film, so I was learning a bit of this, learning, a bit of that kind of floating around. And then I, when I came here, I got into Brazilian jiujitsu and for whatever reason it really clicked for me. And I was having kind of a really good, I was going really quickly through the, through the ranking of that physically, but also just learning a lot about myself as a person through being there.
It's amazing the, these kind of little lessons that you can learn. It's like a Petri dish or a mini world, sometimes just transitioning from a move to another and you can think about what you did to get there and what they did and, and kind of extrapolate on it and be like, man, you could do that anyway, couldn't you? - So the, the metaphor of juujitsu as a life endeavor, do you teach this stuff? I mean, you, the, your ability to put words around it and communicate it is wonderful.
Are you a teacher as well? - I do teach, yeah, I teach. Um, but just for myself, I teach a couple classes a week when I'm there, which is something that's pretty common for guys as you get up into the top of the ranks. I'm a brown belt now, so it's pretty common for brown belts to be teaching. You learn so much by teaching. - Yeah, that's true. To teach is to, is to know. But wait, what did, what did someone, one of your students say to you? I think you mentioned?
- Yeah, so I, I was really lucky to get to teach Russell Brand, who is, um, an amazing jiujitsu practitioner actually for, you know, I, he's, he's only just got his blue belt, but he's got such an amazing feel for it and also such a genuine fascination with it. He can withstand my sometimes absurdly wordy and metaphorical explanations of maneuvers. Sometimes people are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, just teach me the move. And I'm like, no, but check this out. Like, think about it like this man.
And they're like, yeah, cool. You know, not everybody wants a, a 10 minute explanation to something that is very small, but he certainly did. And he's, I think he's the first person who said this thing to me about the balance between my masculine and my feminine energy. He was like, that's really, that's really something. And I was like, cool man. I thought it was really cool. And I, and I, first thing I did was call Riley and I was like, Russell said I was really masculine and really feminine .
And she was like, yeah, I've always known that about you. She's like, I always liked that about you. I'm like, huh. I, I mean, I really like it. It's a, it's such a nice compliment. It really touches me in a way that I, I feel really good about it. It's not something that I try to do. It's not something I work to do to be, to be hard and soft. I do think it's something that makes me good at martial arts and makes me good at a lot of the things that I do.
Is that, is that kind of ability to do that. - Yeah. You know, you actually, this is the second time you mentioned it. I was gonna say something earlier, but I just wanna bring it up because I think part of what we support students doing in the process is intentionally connecting to their spirit, intentionally connecting to their deeper essence, their core, and going back again and again in a quad check, in a hand on heart in a, the multiple practices and tools and visualizations.
But then what that does, and I think you just gave a couple good examples of it, because what it does is then your spirit will go to you. You don't have to actually, so many people think change and transformation has to involve willpower and has to involve, I gotta consciously, uh, intellectually remember.
But you know, whether it's, uh, a moment in the store or with your father-in-law or with your wife, um, you just allow the presence of the moment and then your spirit informs you, you don't actually have to try, try, try harder to go to it. It goes to you. Is that part of what you're talking about? - That's totally what I'm talking about. Totally, man. Like I was saying, I guess you gotta just be really open to these things.
I mean, you mentioned you could learn something from like anybody and it just flashed to me like this weird moment I had with my dog the other day with my dog. I was, I was petting my dog and he was just looking at me dead in the eyes and I was like, you love me for no reason other than I am me. Huh. , you know, you love me for absolutely no reason other than to just love me. - And what did, what did that feel like?
- I mean, it was just such a beautiful moment and I was like, that's, that's kind of what it's about, isn't it? Like , like how can't, you can't, why can't I do that with everybody? Why can't everybody be worthy of love for no other reason than they exist?
- Amen. So I just have to ask before we go, what's it like, you've talked about, you know, being, uh, sort of on automatic and armored up a little bit in your work and then coming home to your wife, but what's it like when you bring that open hearted stuff to work? How's that go? - I think most people receive that really well. It's funny, there is some people you can see, you know, there'll always be one person who you can see.
It makes 'em uncomfortable for just for you to be like, for you to be really authentic and, and also present yourself as like a vulnerable person. I think that can shock some people who are like, I don't want to be vulnerable. Like, if you are doing it, that's cool. I don't want to do it. Get it away from me, kind of thing. And they're the people you really wanna, I think really you should go off and go, Hey man, how are you , how are you doing? You know, do you want a hug ?
But I think most of the time it's, I just had such a good experience working with such a great group of guys last week, you know, and it was just so easy to connect with everybody. And I think that all of that is the runoff from the process for me, for sure. - Ben Smith Peterson, changing hearts in the rough and tumble, uh, daredevil world of stunting. - That would be nice. - What's it like? So just take a deep breath. What, uh, what, what are you feeling as we wind down this conversation?
- I'm feeling particularly connected to the process. I guess that's just the nature of reflecting on something, you know, it's a unique job and it's cool to be able to tell, tell people how the process can, you know, make things better that you maybe wouldn't have thought were better. You know, you maybe don't, aren't thinking. You go like, oh, people who could really implement some spiritual learning and growth in their lives.
Oh, let's go find some stunt men, unless you've done some and then you go, oh yeah, we should definitely go find some stunt men. You know, that would be great. - Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna look at movies differently in the future and see, see the, the stuntmen behind the, the possible scene. And, uh, Ben, I'm just grateful for this conversation. I've, I've stifled lots of laughter and have big smiles throughout it, so thank you for the conversation. - Thank you for having me.
- Thank you for listening to our podcast. My name is Liza Insi. I'm the CEO and President of Hoffman Institute Foundation. And I'm Rasi - Hoffman, teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute Foundation. - Our mission is to provide people greater access to the wisdom and power of love - In themselves, in each other, and in the world. To find out more, please go to hoffman institute.org.