The Old Woman

from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss how and why this series came about in a very personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy I hope you really enjoyed the episode. Last week our conversation with Professor Ali Alumi, who is you know, scholar expert but also a very cool guy. Uh. This week,

I wanted to pivot a little bit. I wanted to move a little bit away from the scholar expert field and kind of talk to somebody who has had some crazy experiences, more like telling stories around the camp fire type of vibe. So I have on this week somebody who I love dearly, Shaheen Basha. She is just an amazing, extraordinary woman in the work that she does and Also, her stories are freaky. I mean like I first heard of these stories a couple of years ago and I've

just remembered them ever since. And I said, Okay, sha Heen, I got it. I needed to retell these stories. So let me tell you a little bit about Shaheen Um Shahen is an assistant teaching professor at Penn State University and her focus is on mass incarceration and prison education.

She's a journalist. She's also the co founder and executive director of the Prison Journalism Project, which is all about providing incarcerated men and women the skills to tell their own stories through journalism and also giving them a platform to publish their stories on She is an award winning veteran journalist with twenty years of experience as an international reporter covering legal and business issues for Thompson Rooters, CNN,

DAL Jones Newswire. And she's also the co editor of the anthology Mirror on the Veil, a collection of personal essays on hit job and veiling, and a contributor to Burn It Down, an anthology of essays exploring women and anger. So let's talk to Shaheen Basha. This is a fun conversation. Hope you enjoy it. Hi, and welcome to this week's episode. Shaheen, how are you. I'm good, Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for a green to come on.

You're incredibly busy person, and I told our listeners a little bit about your background, but I want you to tell our listeners about your work and your own words. Well, I'm I've been a journalist for about twenty years, so I always have that as part of my identity. So I'm a journalist. I'm an assistant teaching professor Pence Date, and I'm also the co founder and co executive director of the Prison Journalism Project, which is basically my life work.

It's um it's my passion project. And what we do is we teach incarcerated men and women around UM the country how to do journalism, how to express themselves. Uh. It's both educational in the sense that we know curriculum, we do, you know, we work on textbooks advising all

of that. But we also have a publication and online publication at Prison Journals and Project dot org, and we receive submissions from all over the country and we get to work with these amazing writers and people that you know, the rest of society doesn't know yet, and we're training them and like getting their words out. And I'm really excited about it because I think, especially right now, when it's so possible for people to be forgotten, I think that,

you know, the project is really giving them life. And I'm really excited about that. Yeah, a lot of people don't realize. COVID quarantine has been tough for a lot of us. But for those who are incarcerated, they get to see no buddy, so they can't even get outside of their cells. They've lost visitation. It's been really, really tremendously difficult. And you know, this work that you're doing is so close to my heart. But here's my question, and it's a huge I mean, honestly an incredible project

and a huge project. How do you train them? Isn't like virtual or you have people go like how does this work? Right now? At the moment. What they do is they send us their work and you know, we edit it and we post it. But from within that, we also we reach out to our our men and women. We send them. You know, there's definitely send of their clips on our website. We basically all of our writers have a profile page where all of their work gets put up there and it encouraged. But how do they

hear about you? How do you even know you exist? A determination? Yeah? Now, um, we we had started basically last I mean, we've been doing the work. You know, I've been a professor for a while and I was going inside in person to to teach classes on an individual basis. But you know, we've been doing the work for a while. When I moved to Penn State, we launched the Prison Journalism Project officially September two thousand nineteen.

Launched our website this year. Um, it was supposed to be the work was supposed to be about, you know, the training and the education and going inside and curriculated. The pandemic changed all of that, you know, and we realized we didn't want to just put the project on hold. We wanted to evolve it, and we had this idea to create this publication and with that, what we found is, you know, we started with a really simple medium page

and that blew up. And it partly was word of mouth with us, you know, basically talking to people that we knew were partnered U with San Quentin News as well, and you know, with do my sources and people that I worked with before, and then we partnered with the American Prison Writing Archive and they connected to the Prison Legal News, who met who agreed to put our submissions. Call for Free Fantastic was the nicest thing for them

to do, and it just went everywhere. And then Black and Pink put us in there as well, because we wanted all these different voices to get you know, to get inside. So a lot of it started with that, and then it just kind of word of mouth just kept spreading around the country and now we're getting submissions from everywhere, and you know, people are really reaching out to us as well, um individually, like what are you

looking for? So we created um this journalism primer that's on our website that you know, we have a section in the Shared Story so we're writing prompts, so we have a primer style guide all of this stuff. Um. Sometimes family members will send inside, but oftentimes somebody will write us and we'll just send it to them and then they'll send us stuff back, and you know, we're working with that and some people are just happy to get you know, a piece out in our poem out

and be done. And I really want to work on their craft, and so we do back and forth with them, and through that we're seeing a few writers as set group of writers are starting to rise above. So we're gonna be launching a contributing writers section, which you know, and we're trying to get our guys separately. We work with the ones that are really showing promise and really interested, where we go back and forth on pieces to get them published. One of our guys just got published in

the Washington Post. That's amazing. Yeah, so we're really insulations. Oh my god, what fulfilling work. As I hear you talk as prompting all these questions in my mind because I'm so interested in this work. But obviously this conversation is not not about this work. But I do want to mention there's two reasons I'm having this conversation though, because the first is because I want folks to know how we first, how we know each other, how we

first connected. Were you following like the advanced case or undisclosed if I remember correctly what happened? Was I mean, I was a huge fan of you know, following the serial, you know, and um, I've been talking, you know, because I just saw so many similarities. You know, I have a I have a loved one of friends who's incarcerated. I saw so many similarities that passion for it. And it was interesting because my husband is the one that reached out to you. He did reach out to me

and said, listen. He said, I have an incredible wife who does incredible work, and I need you to read her work. And I was like what, because I have never people do reach out and solicit right like they want you to like you don't read their work promote it. But I've never had a spouse to that. I thought it was so lovely and he was right, and I'm so glad I did it, and I'm so glad we connected. And yeah, there's also that the fact that this work

is very meaningful to you. But okay, but the real reason I set folks up before we get into this conversation is because no one I wanted listeners to get an idea of, Like all of our guests has very different backgrounds. Everybody having conversations with around this topic of gin and the supernatural a very different backgrounds. But I also like to like build up your credibility and then like I'm not crazy and then bring it crashing down.

And I'm waiting for that to happen to be like oh, She's like, oh right, so you are risking some measure of your credibility. But look, it is what it is. You know, you see what you see, your experience, which experience. So let's like shift the conversation now, because clearly you are a reasonable, rational, brilliant, intelligent, accomplished woman. Now let's get into the gym stuff. First of all, were you raised in like a cultural identity or religious culture that

had any connection to this phenomenon. Yeah, I mean I'm I'm Pakistani American. I mean I was born in New York, a New Yorker, but um, my family's Pakistani. We're from Karachi and you know we're Muslims. So I think for me, the whole concept of gin and supernatural is not something that was outside of our wheel bearer. I mean, this is something we grew up with as just you know, you you believe in God, you believe in you know, saying you believe in Gin, I mean, you believe in angels.

It wasn't something that was deemed as being crazy that way. Um, So I remember, you know, my grandmother would be in Pakistan and she'd be we'd be lying in bed and she would tell stories about like you know, magic and Gin and like India, you know, before partition, and that's just what I kind of grew up with. And then I think that level of wonder it was just it was just so normal that that's life that duds us, and that's other things out there because that's what our

religious beliefs and training, you know, said. I think as you grow older, you kind of go, oh, I am never going to mention this out loud, and you know, I can't talk about it, and I don't you know, share stories in public about it. But you know, my cousins and I had this standing thing that anytime we got together, you know, whether it was in Pakistan or when they moved here. Even to this day, we tell Gin stories. It's just part of like our way of connecting.

I think I was at your house and we started telling Jin stories stories. It was great. That was like that was a while ago, that was like and haw or two years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, it is very much a thing. And I knew growing up that was like the best part of seeing friends other friends who actually also shared this belief and I also felt like we had this little secret where it's like all this other phenomenon that the rest of the world doesn't understand.

We're like, oh, we totally know why it's happening. We we can totally explain it to you. Um, but let me ask you. So when you when you say like your grandmother was telling these stories, were these stories that frightened you? Like? Were these lessons? Were they like? How how did you think about the gin? Honestly I was a scaredy cat kid who was scared of everything, and um, I was terrified also they were were they scary stories? They?

I don't think they were meant to me. They would just sort of like you know, um, you know my grandmother, you know, we're from our families from lucknow in India, and you know, very kind of spiritual in you know, it's an old place, whole place, very spiritual, very much

very Sufi, right. So I think also it's when you when you're more into Sufism and souf you know, when you have those beliefs, you sort of are much more open to, you know, the things that are outside of your long vision, you know, and the spiritual world is just another world to you, because you know, that's what suphism is. It's about, you know, spirituality. I think that's

those are the stories. It's just about like you know how old houses that you know you don't go into at certain times or were left vacant for too long. My grandmother would tell stories about that. I grew up um being told never to be outside um at magreve at sunset with my hair loose, right, the same thing, same thing. And I am now a mother of three children and my eldest daughter is seventeen with long hair, and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's not happening five right.

She's like Mom, I like no, no, no, there's a tree right there. You're not. Oh my god, yes, you've gotta bring home a gin in your hair. Basically, they're going to be like infatuating because of the stories we were told. You know, like everybody was under a tree in in India. It's always right, so it's in the tree in India, and like they had long hair, and

then a jin fell in love with her. The next thing, you know, she became possessed or she became you know, connected, and it would make and I'm stating they're going as a very you know, rational human being going to the probably other issues there too, but what if not and what's not is enough to say get inside. It's like do you want to test the theory? Right? Like do you really want to push this envelope? I totally get it.

For for those of our listeners who might not be familiar with what a Sufi or Sufism is, it's kind of like a methodology of practicing the religion of Islam, but it's like more of a mystical esoteric, right. I guess like in in Judaism you have the Kabbalah. It's I guess, may I don't know enough about it to

say it's similar, but it's it's basically like that. So you have people who are like very very fundamentalist, very Orthodox, and you have people who are like Sufis were like, oh, it's all about the spirit of the religion and then this that So, yeah, you're right, I do think that like for families, for Sufi families, Now, my family was not a super family. They were very kind of orthodox traditional my mother, I would say, straight up like hobby type.

But so nobody told of these stories in our family, and I was um starved for them. I heard about it from all like the other uh Muslim families that we grew up with, where they did talk about this and then I would love to trade stories. Have you experienced things that you believe are inexplicable or the supernatural in your life? Absolutely? Absolutely? When is the first time that happened? How young were you? Honestly? Um, One of the first things I remember was back when I was

probably seven or eight. Yeah, I mean way back ago, long ago, where um, you know, we were living this little one bedroom apartments in Brooklyn, like little crapple in Brooklyn, and we're very poor, and we had this five of us lived in this one bedroom apartment and I remember, um my brother coming in barging into my room, my our room, our one bedroom. I was sitting there, I was like seven or eight, and he's like, you know, what's wrong with you? Like why you why do you

keep going to the bathroom? And I'm like, I haven't left the room, I said, and he clearly so. And I had very short hair. I was a tom very short hair, you know tom boy bull cut salth Asian

look going back then. And I think we also that at one heard that, but he uh yeah, he saw this little what he thought was like me, but he was like a like a little boy that just kept going from the bedroom to the bathroom, right, And that was the first time I was like kind of like, okay, that's weird because it's just you know, we're latch key kids. It was just me and him, So I was seven, he was twelve, right, really strange and so of course

you know, that's started freaking me out. And then I saw The Exorcists, which still gives me, um nightmares and just ruined me for life. And that was sort of the first and I was like, okay, that that's different. And you know, when we go to focus on my family, my grandmother would tell stories about you know, this house

where the light would come on and stuff. I remember going to a wedding and my cousin was like, yeah, that house and you know past the tendency that that's that's the house that you know, and now I was talking about was like a light was on. So of course it freaked me out. Um, but yeah, I think that's right then. But I think as I got older, you know, um, you know, we were to like in our family and stuff that like that. That kind of

weird stuff is very strong in the women. And so like my mother, you know, used to have like dreams and they would come true and stuff like that, and you know, it was just something that was part of our our life, like we knew, you know, none that was a certain way. My mother was a certain way and around for us, the girls around their team would start, you know, like having experiences. So have you had like premanitive like premonitions as well like a mother? Yea, no, definitely,

I I do. My daughter, does you know? Really? So? Yeah, but it's straight it's straight through like it and it was a Sufi shif once I told our family that it's very strong through the line of the mother. Oh wow. And then I've heard this over and over again, Um that these kinds of abilities, however you want to understand them,

do seem to have a family connection. Oftentimes it's put through women, but I have I have friends who are male who also have said that they, like their elders, had some somebody in their family, had some kind of experience or had kind of ability, and they feel like they've kind of inherited it. So that experience when you were seven, did that scare you at the time, or you were you just like, oh, yeah, I understand that my not not told me about this kind of stuff.

Remember my nanny or whatever. Yeah, because I was saying, they're going, okay, why why is there a little kid in the house. Oh my god, there's a little kid in the house. And I then the next year I saw The Exorcist because I saw it by myself in my house God, and watched but my sister told me I could watch it, so as soon as everybody was out of the house, I put it in. That was terrible ideas an eight year old, terrible idea, and it literally to this day, I'm in my forties, I hear

that theme song and I throw up. Oh really that deeply internalized. Yeah, that was one. That's one of the most terrifying, even though in many ways, if you go back and watch it now, like kind of from a like a detached perspective, it seems kind of hokey. Obviously the effects are right. I never watched it again, You'll never watch it again. It lives inside your head anyways. So tell me a little bit about um as you're growing up. So then after that, after experience, when your seven.

Do you think that was kind of like when the doors opened for you, when the veils were lifted a bit. I think so. I think it's when I kind of understood that because remember, you know, kind of growing up and more stories in the family and kind of you know, looking, I already knew my mother, you know, could like predict

things she would see. For my mom, she always saw death, like she always knew when something was going to die, and so she would she would see it in the dream and so she would always be upset and crying no, and then it would happen within a day or two, right, So like, okay, many of these things existed, and um, so to that end, it was just kind of like, okay,

you know, I know it exists, so it's fine. When I was about and like seventeen or so, like my my brother was always into weird stuff, and so he was like he decided to start looking at like tarot cards and you know, things like that, and you know, he taught me how to do them. And that was I think, um, when things got very weird, because then there was that point where like everybody in the family started having weird experiences like where you know, like a

woman with long hair and stuff. And it was interesting because multiple people, um that weren't related to us would come. You know, we had a lot of family members that you know, when they immigrated to the USK in our house first, and so in the basement when you're in

New York, you're like the port of entry. And at that point, we actually moved from New Jersey to New Jersey and when I was seventeen, so we had a house house, so we had a house at the base, and so definitely people were staying with us, and uh, we created this little area in the downstairs. And I can't tell you how many times, like relatives told us years later that you know, they thought I was down

because I was own. My family had long hair at that point, I was short, and so how many of my family members would wonder why I'd be standing in the basement when they were in bed, you know, Oh my god, I just got chills. And one of them thought I was away and then I want to wait to college. And one of my other cousins years later said that he asked my mom, but when did Shining

come home? And She's like, no, shs await college. And he didn't say anything, and then later on, you know, later on years later he said, yeah, you know, and my brother's friend, who's a white guy, refused to sleep in the biggest hung out at our house. Once left, and then he came back and he was again in

the couch. You know, that's that's crazy, okay. So um, but I remember when we talked about this a couple of years ago, whenever it was now, you told me about what happened when you your family moved overseas, and little me, I see this because you are married. Where's your husband on the spect on the spectrum is he's like I don't know about this stuff, or he's like

totally in oh no. He was really like whatever. When we first got married, he's like I don't believe any of it, like you're you know, because he thinks he actually, you know, his family as his Canadian and his family was like the bleak you know people, so they used to get more orthodox Orthodox and stuff. So he knew that, you know, he had spoken of people. He knew there were things, but he was like whatever, right, and he

just thought, you know, it was nothing. I remember I was pregnant with my daughter, my first kid, and we had to move home for a little bit before we join the place. I was living at my parents house for a little bit while I was pregnant e sevent eight months pregnant, couldn't sleep through the night, and he comes in the room waking me up, and I'm piste off, like okay, I can't sleep to the night and eight it's pregnant already. And he's like, you need to come

downstairs with me, and I'm like why. He's just like, just I need to get some water. Can you come downstairs with me? And this is my husband is a big man. He's a big, all thronged, you know, broad man who doesn't look like he would need his five for tall pregnant wife to come downstairs. Um, we go down the stairs, he goes you know, I'm standing there and he's like, I'll tell you tomorrow. And then the next day he said that as he was Um, the

reason he did was because he never leaved anything. And then he came was coming down the stairs at like three o'clock in the morning to get water, and we had a mirror that was like right opposite the stairs, and he's like he's looking, you know, as he's coming down he's looking in the mirror, but instead he's he's seeing a woman with long hair, and yeah, and then he's like me out and later he's I could never happened. I'm like, yeah, but I never described what I what

the woman looked like. He described her to me, right, because I never told him what you look like? He described her. It was literally the same old woman that I like, old and long hair that I I know and like my family because I mentioned it to them, knew, but no, and he described again. He's like a perspective. He thought I was down. Apparently everyone thinks of an old crazyman, right me, but he thought and then he really think. He's like, I just left her in bed.

It can't be shy, right, And so that in that minute where he his brain was processing, it was gone. And that's when he came and got me. So let me ask you. So, it sounds like a lot of people have seen like this apparition, this woman, but other than just kind of appearing, has she ever done anything,

spoken to anybody, moved anything, has anybody? Yeah, we had this um prayer, just like a prayer somebody gotten us from a Saudi or Saudi Arabia, right, that was hanging on our It's like an engraving or something like that. It was like an engraved piece that had a glass on it, you know, but it was a good glass and um, it was standing and we'd had it, you

know for years, and it was nothing. And then you know, one day, like my brother was sleeping downstairs and the living he was just sleeping on the couch and then like it was this wow bang, right, this loud bang, and this like this thing basically which was hanging just split, you know, and it's just split like in two. It split into like the glass was completely shut. And we're like all coybe was pressure or something, but it wasn't.

And there there was one the time I never told anybody about what I'd seen until I was There was this one time where I was actually because I thought me about sleep dreaming or whatever you're in that weird place. I was, Um, I was awake and I was talking to my best friend on the phone, and my parents, you know, strict bucks and your parents were like, you know, you have to be in bed by midnight, no talking anybody because were talking to boys kind of a thing, right.

So I was on the phone with my best friend at like one o'clock in the morning, and I look up and I'm fully awake, right, like my lights are off and the whole all the lights and out from the house. But I look up and um, I see this woman in the doorway, and I think it's my mom because my mom is also you know, short whatever, and I'm on, like a crap, I'm telling my friend. I was like, oh man, I'm in al right, Like, my my mom is here in the door and she's

yelling at She's gonna yell at me. And then that's when this thing like rushed with his mouth open scream like I didn't hear because see it. And then my friend was like and I'm like, oh my god. My friend is on the phone right and she also like on the phone and like I'm like, I and what happened? Did your Mom's your mom throw something at you? Would happen? And I'm like, I'm going to get back to you in a minute. And I was like, I just saw something weird. And then I went to my mom. My

mom's knocked out. My mom and my dad like knocked out sleeping, And that's the first time I told my family and stuff and that's when, you know, like they were like little things here and there. I think people have picked up on stuff and you don't talk about it because it's crazy and you know, and it's you know, for me at this point, I'm like, you know, their ghost stories and if you believe it, you believe it.

If you don't, you don't. You know. So this woman, this woman came rushing at you with her mouth open and then just what poof disappeared at the foot of the bed. At the foot of the bed. Can you describe what she looked like? Yeah, she was. She was short, right, so probably like this short woman kind of um like long hair, like long hair centered parted but like straggly, like it wasn't straight. It was straight, but like you know,

like and her face. I can't remember the details of the face other than it was very like the mouth was just very wide and like, you know, her eyes were kind of squinting because she was her mouth was just really really open, you know. And I didn't luckily see her again for many years until my dad was in Bokistan when you know, he had gotten sick. He had a heart attack in Pokistan. We had been in Bokkistan for two weeks with him. Come back. Um, I'm

sleeping in my room. My brother is sleeping in the other room in his room, and my parents were both in Pokisan, and it was the first night we were back. You know, I wake up and she was like literally standing at the same foot at the bed, and I screamed. And that's when my brother came running in and he's like, what happened? As he came running in, she was She's gone. But then he believed me because at that point he

told me that he had seen her as well. So you know, he pulled his mattress to the hallway and like slept in the doorways. Oh my god. Did you guys ever do any research about like whether there was somebody connected to the house and the description and you're trying to figure out who she was, what she wanted. No, you know, honestly, I think that what it was, because my my mom got very upset when she found out my brother had been doing tarot cards and and things

like that. She's like, you know, you opened doorways and portables, and it's so weird because these are literal conversations that we would have in our home right, like people talk about buying cereal and my mom's telling at us about like don't open mortals sale and you know, did you guys do the Buiji board too? No, that is one thing I avoided, like the plague, because I just I know, I was like, I would never do that. That those those things scared me. It's too much of an invitation.

That's way too much. And it was one of those things that like even the tarot cards, like once that stuff started, we were like, yeah, I know, my brother put those away and like, but at that point, whatever was happening was in the house already. We'll be right back after the short break. So when you when you got married, you moved out or you we went overseas. I mean, it seems like this particular entity was kind of it was at the house. It was connected the house.

It wasn't like some some they say, some gin will attach to people, so wherever that person goes, they end up just following that person. I know, somebody like that who hasn't had that experience. Um, and so she sees the same thing over and over, um, the same experiences over and about where she moves and then others kind of remain in there, but you moved overseas at some point in your life, right as an adult or after

you had kids or I don't know when. Yeah, I moved to Egypt um when after I had had my second son, So when he was three months old. My my like my kids, and I moved to each of My husband stayed in the US for another year and then he came with us. Yeah, and so's thirty by then. I think, okay, And so I remember you telling me about the experiences you had in this home over there, right,

so let's talk about that. Yeah, And just to be clear, like honestly, you know, there's a lot of you know, discussion, you know about things falling because you know, we've had experiences, like all of us in different ways, you know, and different things like moving and different things happening. You know what people you know saying things. So I actually I understand what your friend is talking about as well, because these are conversations. So we've had so, yeah, that woman

stayed there. But you know, who knows, right, if people are attached or not. When I is, we lived in Cairo, was generally okay. In Cairo. There's a couple of times you know, little things that happened here and there, but um loge and my daughter. But then when we moved to Dubai, that's when everything kind of like, you know, that was the point where I'm just like, Okay, maybe I'm not because there was still moments where I thought

I was crazy. I was just like I'm crazy, and I'm like day dreaming or we're half asleep, or you're right, you're tired, right, and you know, because I'm a rational human being who well, and I'm the person that will justify it in some rational means as much as possible. Right before I get um, when we lived in Dubai, we actually moved into this really beautiful villa that was right next to a mosque. Right, I'm thinking, it's next to a mosque. How much safer could you see? How

much spiritually safer could you be? Like it's perfect? And then you know, um, a couple of weeks into it, you know, I kept my husband had to go back to the US for something for work, so I was just me. It was really it was like a five bedroom house. My kids are sleeping in their room, I'm in my room and like we're and I'm just hearing the cabinets in the kitchen going bang bang bang really really loud, and you know, I'm thinking, okay, and we

you know, obviously you're in Dubai. You always have like you have domestic help in Duvice. So I thought, okay, it was our it was my kids nanny and she's pissed or something and she's banging things. And I went downstairs and all the lights are off, nobody's there, and it wasn't happening. So I'm like, okay, that's weird. You know, I'm come back. I'm telling my husband. He said, oh, you know, it's probably how settling or something. Right, we're sleeping and then the same thing my weeks us up,

boom boom boom. My husband's like, that's gotta be the nanny. And I'm like, and your husband, you heard it too, because we were broke away that at that point. And then you know, it was just constant. Then a little bit we go back to sleep. A little while later, we're hearing footsteps going up because it was like marble steps because you know, like when you want to buy they have a lot of more ornate kind of think these marble steps, and we're hearing like footsteps on the step, like,

and he's like's are the kids sleep walking? Because we're thinking it's the kids, it's something, and you know, he opens the doors. Nothing there, so we're like, all right, this is weird. And then we go and my husband said, you know what, just let's just put if somebody is moving around the house, we'll put like there was this kid's gate. There's this wooden kid's gate that we had put it, and that was across the top of the stairs. Because my younger son was about three, we moved there.

So we're like, you know, if he falls down the stairs, it's marble, really hurt himself. So we had this kids so you know, like if somebody they know, they would bang into it because they wouldn't know that it was up there, right, So we had it and you know, a couple of nights nothing. A couple of nights later, we're going hearing the banging downstairs. So we wakes both of us up. You know, my husband grabs a bat, right,

he's like waiting now or he's got a bat. And at that point and we were sitting up in bed and we can hear it clearly footsteps going up the thing. The footsteps are coming up the stairway towards your room. Where's our room? The stairs go and then there's like a landing and then right and directly in front was my bedroom, and then the bedroom to the left was my kid's bedroom, and then we had a guest bedroom in office to the rights. It was a big house, right,

so we're like kind of a dead center. So it's coming up the thing, and you know, I, I'm scared. So we had like actually that night closed the door because I was getting a little creep out. I thinking maybe the somebody probably around the house. You know, there were a lot of robberies in du buying that area. So that's my husband at the bat. The doors closed and the kids doors closed, our doors closed, and then we hear the footstep. My husband's got the bat now

he's like piste off. He's ready to do whatever, right, and then we hear the thing slide the gate, the gates. We hear it. My husband jumps up and he opens the door and there's no there's nobody there there and like the gate is open. The gate was open and we had closed it. So that was like the beginning, and then it just accelerated after that, like I was, you know, downstairs, my husband and I were watching Game

of Thrones downstairs. The kids are in like in bed, you know, sleeping, and they had a bunk bed in their room, and all of a sudden, my daughter starts screaming bloody murder. So I remember jumping out of the couch, like running up the stairs. My husband's following me, right, And she had she would sleep on the top bunk and we had when those kids tents that went over the top bunk, you know, they have kids tents. So

she used to like sleeping in his kid's tent. And she's screw dreaming inside this tent, right, And I run upstairs. I opened the tent and she is just pale and screaming, and I'm like, what's wrong? And she's like, you know, I woke up and I I saw this you know, shadow like outside of my tent, and I thought it was you, right, And she opened the tent and she's like, mom, it was not you, right, And then she's like and

then it disappeared, and that's when she started screaming. And she was six or seven, right, and she saw did she see a person? She described what she said she saw a woman, and she said, like she saw the wind shadow, and then when she opened the thing, she saw like a woman for like a fraction of a second and then she disappeared. But she's like I clearly, She's like, I thought it was you, right, And I was sitting up and I opened it. I just keep

getting chills. I just keep getting chills up and down my body. Gary. It was really sCOD because it was one of those things that I'm just like, this is crazy, and I'm just a really respected journalist covering the Middle Eastern and I'm going and I'm tired, Like I'm going into work and I'm tired. And then it was funny. I told my boss, who was um a small and

she's one of my best friend. She's a smaller Canadian woman, so she's Muslim too, and I told her about this stuff and she was like, Okay, that's really weird and scary. So she's like, you know, read like something from the Koran, and you know, this is the conversation having with my boss in the newsroom about and so it's just sort of crazy. And then we're just doing it. And then it just started accelerating, accelerating with the banging and this, and then then our housemaid or nanny told us the

same thing. She would she would do it too. So she actually one day I come home and she was she was Christian, and she apparently while we were awakey at work, she went to the church and she got all this holy water, so all over our house. But these crosses, holy oil. Whatever works, man, whatever works. And he's like, are you mad, And I'm like, nope, I'm good.

Something's gonna work. It's good. I'm sitting here playing like Karan, you can have lumpthing's gonna work right right, And yeah, I mean then it was just started accelerating more and more, and then it came really really common, to the point like we lived there. Maybe I had to be terrifying for the kids to write, well, that's the thing. Eventually we all wounded up sleeping in the same room. We had a five rough house and the kids in their room, and so we had a king size bed. My husband's like,

this stinks. I'm gonna go sleep in the guest room. Why so me and my two kids are sleeping in the room. He's sleeping in the guest room. Does it a week and then comes back and he said nope, pulls a mattress out and starts sleeping on the floor in this room. And I'm like, what, what's wrong with you? Wanted to sleep in the guest room And he's like, okay, so I was sleeping right, and he's sitting when he's sleeping, and clearly he's like somebody pulled his foot. He's like

he pulled his foot and filted him awake. He thought it was me, And he's like what and he looks and he's like, no, nobody there, and he he was just so he's like, maybe it's a good gin because it was like fund your time, and I was sleeping through it, so maybe it was just waking me up for prayers or something. Right, get up, get up and pray. But he was just like, nope, I'm not going back in there. So by the end, because it was happening so much, we would all sleep in one room. And

I'll sell you the reason I forgot why. The reason we started doing that was because my daughter was having tough time sleeping in her She kept getting up the middle of the night and coming to my room. And you know, my son with something, he was pretty sleeper,

but you know she would always come down. And one night by you know, I wake up and I looked at the door and I see my daughter, you know, I see him, like I see the same size my daughter, short short South Asian short hair, right she's standing there, and I'm like, okay, you know, baby, you can come in, come in the bed, go ahead, and you know, and then I like move move to make room for her in the bed, and she's already lying there. So I look, Mike, shack and stop it, you keep give me. I'm so

freaking out. It was really scary, and I'm she's already

lying there in between my husband and myself. And then I'm like, I'm looking and I look back and then not only at this point, I'm awake, now come sitting up right, and I'm looking and I look back and think, and I still see this little shadow of like this little kid, but now I see a woman right behind the kid, right like, and it looked like a woman like niob like I look like a woman in a work like right behind and that's where I'm like banging on my husband's arm and I'm like waking him up.

And so I grabbed my son and I was like no, I'm not gonna let to sleepy himself in his room, right, So, like all of us started sleeping in one room that's where my as we went to the other room asleep and then came back. So it was like three of us in the king's size bed and my husband on a mattress on the floor. So at some point when I mean, because I feel like, how can you even rest?

How can you emotionally and physically rest in a house where you feel like you're certainly not alone, Like there's something that like the psychic toll has to take over time, it's gonna be really difficult. So what are you thinking, like, Okay, we just have to get out of here, or we have to find a fix, or what is the long term plan? In response to this? Are you just in their space and they want you out? What if you think was happening? Well that I didn't know what was happening.

It was really scary. But the problem is when you moved overseas, especially if you live in du Buy, you have to pay rent for a year and that rent gets taken out of your salary. So I could not cut the lease for any reason. You know, it would have been literally all everyone has still been taken out of my salary and I wouldn't been able to afford another place because you have to pay for the entire year, and like it's not cheap the buy, it's very very

over priced. Right. So it was one of those things that I was like, Okay, we're here, We're stuck here, right, And um, was it an old home or what was it was newly built? And this is the thing, right, So it was it was a newly built home that was next to it wasn't like maybe a couple of years or something. Oh no, it was actually newly built. There was another home that was like maybe a few months early. So they had been building this development of

these really beautiful villas in that area. And I come into work one day and there's this newspaper called There was this newspaper called Emirates twenty seven in Dubai and I come into work and there's a newspaper on my thing,

and my boss walks up to me. She's like, turn to page whatever seven, right, And apparently somebody in Emirate wrote an article about how the entire area of Jamara three where we lived, was plaguing the British expats, because British expats kept moving out because they kept saying it was haunted flying it wasn't a freaking newspaper. And like then my friend, my boss is like, isn't that your

neighborhood And I'm like, yes, that's my name. And it's all these like people from like all over England and Australia are being quoted and they're going, I'm sitting there and like glasses are flying off and I see these people and all the bang the bangings too much and like the rattling in the bank. It was really crazy. And then at the very bottom, because apparently they didn't know how to write a story, so they put this at the very bottom of the buried it was that

that Terentire neighborhood was built over a graveyard. The whole neighborhood had been built over a graveyard. With the Dubai sprawl, they just there's not enough space there. Yeah, so they had to oh, my god, that built over a graveyard. Yeah, that can really hurt property values right there, this is the buy Okay, that's true. And we stayed there for a while. I mean there was one point where I remember um sitting up. My husband was like on the mattress,

and we started, you know, locking our door. At that point, we closed our door and we were locking our door, and you know, all five, all four of us are in the bedroom. We're all sleeping, same banging bang banging footsteps with steps. I wake up, you know, my husband wakes up. We're like basically sitting there looking at each other, and then the footsteps come up and then you stop right outside of our door, and my husband was like, are you sure maybe there's somebody in the house. Right.

He's like, because that's really that's right outside there. He would whispering to each other and I was like, and it just sounds too real. It sounds So he's like, I think there's somebody in the house. He's like, I think somebody because you know the robberies here. So he goes to get the bat and then the door starts like the door knobs are shaking, and he's like, holy crap. He's like, there's somebody at the door. So he gets the bat and he gets opens door over there. Wow.

And so at what point did your husband go from I don't really believe in this stuff too. Oh, this is definitely real. I think since he married me married me, I think he kind of was just like you hear things and then he was like, Okay, now I'm experiencing them with you. And I think Dubai really clenched it for him. I think that was he was just like,

all right, you know, these things happened. And we actually went to the you know, the mom at the mosque connect door um and then apparently everybody, all the Muslims in the neighbor that were at the moscow, Oh yeah, that happens in this house, and that happens. It's the entire neighborhood in the neighborhood, very common. So the mom started talents and you have to do like Suita Bucca and you have to have it on play all night.

And you know, it was one of things that I didn't want to tell my mom because I don't want people do not come visit right because don't tell them about the gin. Come, the beach is lovely, the what is great, the shopping is good. Anything, And like my sister came and she she actually lived with us when she was waiting for her house to be ready. She was living to buy. Then she came and lived with us like two three months, and then later on she's like, yeah,

your house. Your sister experienced something too, so when you came back to the United States. So how long ago was that? That was? Um? We left that house two

thousand twelve Christmas? H did you um sense? Like I'm just wondering, like, because you know, people have a sense, uh, people have these experiences when sometimes got a sense of some kind of overwriting feeling like some people will describe like they're being an incredible kind of sadness around this entity or or if they feel they can sense like malevolence or or anger or something. Did you get any get a sense from these apps? From these whatever this

entity was in the house? I think I think it was just it was more like we were in their space, in their space, the kid was playful, you know, and the kid was playful and wanted somebody was what just saying I think the mom I'm I'm projecting here, whoever the longer woman was right. I think that she was just kind of why why are you in the house

sort of. I don't think there was anything like malevolent, but I just think it was it was scary because I like to be in this reality, and I like that reality to stay far away from me, you know, yeah, which which takes me to another question. I mean, so you've been told that you have a lineage of of of having these abilities, right like, which means if you wanted to, you could really cultivate them. Have you thought

about them? Sometimes? I'm thinking I should, But it's part of my family, so I just kind of you know, you know, it is what it is. But you know, it's also something that like I don't talk about and if you were not my friend, I would not be talking about it on a podcast. I do appreciate it because, look, I know you're putting yourself. I've asked other friends too, They're like, do you understand I have a professional reputation

to protect? That's what my partner doing this, She's like, really, like, you know, my work stands for itself. It does, it does, it does, And like I said, like, we have a whole spectrum of really like people from all kinds of different background just not just professional backgrounds, but like religious and cultural backgrounds who also are going to be having conversations with me around this. So it's been great, Well,

when can I ask you this? Then? Just as a kind of a closing question, when is the last time you had an experience that you feel like was the supernatural experience? Um, you know, honestly, it was probably like a couple a few months ago, so you know what I mean, Like this is like stuff that you know, my husband basically like he he told me that I'm married into a very annoying family. Right. It's just like I don't know what to say to you guys, because

that's why I'm saying. He's like, you know, obviously there's something attached to your family or you draw it or whatever, right, but like, um yeah, it was was like kids voices, like kid's voices. And I didn't say anything to anybody about in your house in my end, like this this house that we were renting and not this one with the one before that, and like I never said anything

to anybody. And then um my son, he's like I mentioned, He's like, yeah, I thought I heard kids playing downstairs in the basement, right, And I was like, okay, it's okay, right, Well look because I don't because he gets scared, I wasn't gonna say anything to him. And then you know, I was sleeping one night and then when I actually wasn't sleeping, I was supposed to be sleeping, and then

my husband was snoring. So I left the room and I went to my my daughter's room and I was just like trying to settle down in my daughter's room with her, and then I just heard a music box, like really loudly, and we don't have music box, so, oh my god, a really loud music box. And you know, I got up and I walked to the different rooms to try to find it, and I couldn't find it.

And then I went downstairs to the basement, you know, the next day, putting like something away the laundry, and then I was like, you know what, there's a kid's section in the basement, you know, and it and then there was a music box in there. Wow. I have a feeling. You have so many, so many, so many stories, but it sounds like you have kind of resigned yourself to living with these experiences and none of them have really felt threatening necessarily, but it's just like they're letting

you know, we're here. We're just here. It's culture, you know, I think it's culture and its religion, and you know, there's people are going to say, oh, you know, wow, you're crazy or while you know there's this and that's fine. That's what faith is, right. I mean, the people say the same thing for believing in God. And if you believe, they think you're crazy. And you know some people do, yeah,

some people do, and some people tell you. I mean, I figure there are plenty of people who are like agnostic or have you know, don't no really have a faith tradition, but they might still believe in like something a little that they can't explain UFOs or ferries or whatever. Maybe something you never know, uh you know, Santa Claus, I mean the inexplicable. But anyhow, thank you so much.

I mean, this has been a really it's been a fun conversation, even though I've had lots of chills and a little bit of a little bit of some scarce too, But I really appreciate it, and I I would love to continue to talk to you like as you have experience. I mean, I don't know if you've ever thought about like documenting this stuff or like doing your journalists you could do a whole like project around it. I could, and then I would like to maintain somewhat of my credibility.

Can you. Please put our listeners how they can find your work, especially the Prison Journals and Project UM and find you online and follow you. Okay, well, um, you can look us up at Prison Journalism Project dot org.

That is our publication. We're super excited about it and you know we're we focus on incarcerated men and women formerly incarcerated and incarceration impacted because we understand that the impact of people inside is so much wider and that net is so huge that we want to hear the stories of everyone that's been you know, involved in any way, shape or form, whether it's a family member, loved one, friend, or even if they worked with people and it's it's

touched them. So we're always looking for those stories. You can find me on Twitter at profit Pasha prof Psha p R O F p A s h A awesome, Thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Now there are as many people in the world with JIN stories as there are GIN, so if you have one you'd like to share, make sure to email it to me at the Hidden Gin at gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th H E H I D D E N d j I n N at gmail dot com and until next time,

remember we are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted by Robbiah Chaudry and produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with executive producer Who's Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our theme song was created by Patrick Quartets. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. M