The Exorcist of Oman

from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss how and why this series came about in a very personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy. I'm so excited to bring you this guest this week.

His name is Baxter Jackson, and I found Baxter when I was doing my research for the Hidd Engine, well before the show ever aired, and he was gracious enough even though he was halfway across the world and had just begun a vacation. He lives in the Gulf Um, the Gulf Regent, and he was vacationing up in Europe and uh, but I managed to nail him down and

we did a transatlantic interview. So I came across Baxter when I found a couple of articles he had written he's a journalist along with many other things he does, UM about things he had witnessed himself in a place that's one of the most haunted regions apparently in the world, Bahda and oman Um. And I was so fascinated with his experience that I really wanted to talk to him, and I thought you guys would love to hear from him.

So I've been holding on this interview for so long, and since this week's episode is all about summoning the in Um, I thought this was kind of like a perfect time to air it. So let me tell you a little bit about Baxter. Baxter Jackson is a writing instructor at a university in the desert oasis of Ian

in the United Arab Emirates. While living in the Middle East for the past thirteen years, including stints in Egypt, Ohman and again the ui E, he has been crafting unique cultural interest stories about his experiences for travel websites such as Lonely Planet, the Metador Network, and local publications such as Outdoor U A E. You can find Baxter on YouTube and Instagram. Again, It's Baxter Jackson, and well, come and join me as I speak to Baxter. It's

a great conversation. Hi Baxter, thanks for joining me on the show this week and my pleasure. Happy to be here. Um. So, you know, I want to start off by talking just about I've told our listeners a little bit about your work in journalism and specifically kind of get the work you've done in the Middle East. Can you tell us about your body of work and how you ended up

doing that? Well, I was I just happened to get an opportunity to teach at the American University in Cairo, and when I was there, that was sort of my introduction to the Middle East. And I've always been interested in, um, you know, paranormal phenomenon. I've always had kind of a longing to believe that there's something else out there, you know, some other side to life that we don't get to see. And UM, so that's Um what were you teach something?

Were you teaching something related to like paranormal phenomenon or no? No, no, no at all. I was working at the Writing Centers basically like a writing tutor and on a scholarship at UC. So. Um. Yeah, but that was my introduction to the to the Middle East. And um, but I've never written about, you know, paranormal phenomenon before. I was before I happened to find myself years later in oman which is where you find Bahala, which is like the kind of the epicenter of all

things that go bump in the night. For as far as you know, in the Muslim world goes, they don't if anyone, if any Arab has ever heard of oman Um, then they know they know about it from Bahlah's like Bahlah's you know, whisper kind of Yeah, my my introduction to Baha lah and Um and how it is like kind of this hotbed of activity. Actually, I didn't know this until I found your article and I was so excited to read it and it was a fascinating piece and I'm gonna link it for everybody so they can

made it as well. And I have referenced it in the series Um and So. But but but that was that was like your first introduction to the world of gin or I'm assuming it couldn't have been. You must have heard about this before that. I mean I heard about genies of course. I mean in popular culture in the West, you know, we see genies and like Aladdin and movies like that, and so yeah, and I dream of Genie. I mean I was born in the seventies,

so I grew up with I dream a Genie. But I never thought like, Okay, this is the real thing or not, you know, I mean I just thought it was like one of these you know, popular myths or whatever. So at what point did you realize that there are people who think this is a real thing? Was it? It was it during that story, no matter, was it

before that? Like, was there any other interaction for well, no, I mean I've had I had a couple of experiences and um, when I was living in Cairo that made me realize that you know that most Muslims consider Jen to be, you know, just as real as God or the prophet Muhammad or any other you know, part of

anything that's send the Koran. Did they take it mostly mostly it's taken literally, you know, and a lot of people, uh, you know, I started to hear stories about Gin or like weird things that would happen and people would say it's a gin you know, and um, but you know, for me, it was just kind of like, okay, it's like a grimlin did it, you know, like or something like that. You know in the West, they've experienced something

that can't explain, So I'm just kind of projecting onto it. Yeah, exactly, yes, yeah, okay, so tell me. Okay, the month story starts off with you kind of waiting for a woman who's going to be joining you to get exercise basically, and so there's a story before that, like how did you how did she hear view, how did you connect with her? And how did you why did you decide to like oh, yeah, this is something I totally want to be part of. Well, yeah,

that's um. I've written a story about Mualm Salem. She is like the most famous exorcist in bah Blah, and I was I was living in ns Woman, which is about maybe four kilometers away, and so I've written a story about him, and she saw it online and then she wanted to and she turns out she actually was possessed by a gender had been possessed by jen for

for many years. And she had actually gone to chargea before to meet with a medium or a woman a Syrian woman there who was who could sort of like soothsayer or like she you know, sort of a gypsy type where she could predict your future. See what's wrong with you, and you can't tell give you a diagnosis. And she was the one who confirmed her suspicion that she was actually possessed by gin and and then she was. Then she went to see Sheik and Sharjan and that

helped for a little while, but the problem persisted. So she this woman wasn't like from the region, right, like she flew from the other side of the world. She's from Rhode Island actually, but living in Boston. And her only, her only connection to the Middle East was I mean, she has Middle Eastern friends that she made because she's a she was tutoring some some students studying there in Boston who happened to have, you know, Middle Eastern background,

and so that was that was her only connection. She'd she'd been to like Duban, and she'd I think she'd been took a few other different places in the Middle East a few times, and had some kind of like import export business, you know, she would get things that people needed in different parts of the world. But other than that, like, no, no Middle Eastern background whatsoever. Like she wasn't Mustlim her son and she wasn't Muslim, no, no, not even did she talk to you about what those

problems look like. I mean, like she's traveling across the world to to get help for her issues. What were what was she experiencing? Yeah, yeah, she said that she would have like these night terrors, like she would just wake up and like you know, in a sweat, and she was she felt like someone was in the room with her, and like and then when she did feel that present, she felt like someone was pushing down on

her chest. She had like a normally heavy minstrual cycle. Um, one of her one of her her I think it was a left or I can remember which I was,

but clouded over. And she went to see a doctor and that didn't like you know, in traditional Western doctor and nothing, nothing seemed to work, and she's you know, and then she began to become like increasingly paranoid, and um, you know, she wasn't getting sleep, and it was just she felt like her life without a control, you know, And so she was she was desperate enough to you know, start doing research and and then she ran across the article that I had written for out Door about about

this guy and while salom and she contacted me and she said, you know, I'm an American. I live in Boston and I have a gym problem. But I'm not crazy, you know. And then of course my first thought was she must be. But so I thought, you know, um, I'm open to new experiences, and I've already met with him once and it would really be no problem. I would I would go to Moscot all the time from as well anyways for the weekend skateboarding, hang out with my friends. So you know, it was just like, no

sweat off my back. So I thought, you know, why not, I'll just I'll meet her and see what her story is and put her in contact with this guy, and let's see what happens. So, okay, can we talk a little bit about how the first piece came about? It wasn't just that you moved to Amana you heard about him or like how did how how did that happen? Yeah? Well I heard about him from my from my students.

Well I heard about Bahala from my students, you know, like they wouldn't even want to haunt town type of right, Yeah, and so you just just I they're so paranoid about they won't even they don't like they're not comfortable talking about Jen at all. You know, like the as soon as you say jin and like this milla, you know, and then they you know, they wanted the jim to go away, if that's how you get a jim to

go away to say this. But anyways, they think it's like bad karma or just it's like courting, courting bad luck or ill fortunate to even talk about Jen's But anyways, I learned about it um him, or about Bahhala in general, you know, the reputation Bahhla from from my students. But then um, one of my colleagues, she's Omani, and you know, I asked her like, do you know anyone who actually so I asked her about it about you know, do

you know anyone who does this kind of thing? Because I was really curious to see what, you know, how it might differ from like the exorcistem I've seen in movies and things like that, you know, let's the Islamic slant on it, you know. And um, so, yeah, she happened. She did a little poking around and she put me in contact with him, and yeah, what was that meaning? Like it was kind of weird? Uh, he was kind

of I mean, he was sort of enigmatic. I mean he was like, uh, my Arabic wasn't that good at that point, so I had to have translated with me. But um, he was. He was open enough to meet with us and you know, um, you know, suffer through my questions and uh so yeah he was. He was a nice guy. And he didn't mean he didn't seem like like a magician or like any kind of I mean, I wouldn't have noticed him like walking down the street. He didn't like stand out and he just seemed like

typical old old money dude. You know. He was he'd been in the army and he had seen all the changes of the moon had gone through, like when you know, slavery was still in effect there and like the sixties and he saw that the changes and um, you know how there was like nothing there but at that point and like in the sixties and even not until the seventies when Sultonica Booze took her really start to move from backwater into like uh, you know, first world nation.

So he's seen all that, so it's pretty why is an interesting guy? So they were when you met him. And look, I've had I've met some folks who who claimed to you know, be involved this kind of stuff and and some of them right off the bat, You're like, this guy, this person is like it's total connor, Like, did you get any sense of that or did he

seem like he was really sincere? No. I think he genuinely believes in what he's doing, and I think he's he's he claims to have helped over five thousand people and you know, during his whole tenure as a as a molem to get rid of Gin and so I mean, and I've heard lots of stories from other people about him, So yeah, I mean he seemed like the real deal. So you travel he lives in Bahlad, right m hm. And as you traveled to the most haunted place in the I guess in the Middle East. And how is that?

I mean, did you get a set like what's that place like? Well, um, it looks like a typical little sleepy like mountain Hamlet, you know. I mean, it's just it's in it's in the western the western Hajjar Mountains, and they're pretty rugged and desolate, and it looks a lot like Mars. Actually, if she's never been to Aman, it looks like that's they could film. They could film Mars there easily or a movie about Mars there, you know. Um, and it's just a it's just a little town. There's

a stoop and um. You know, it's not nothing really remarkable about it except that there is a castle there. And that castle is like kind of the one of the hot spots for paranormal activity in in Bahala because they've been trying to restore since like the nineties. And every time they go in and they do something, then they come back the next day and it's been undone and a lot of people say, well, it's the gin,

you know. They don't. They don't like their people coming in and messing with the place where they're they're haunting. So that's why it's taken so long for it to finally open. I think it was open just a couple of years ago. Finally. I guess the gym like the ruins ruined. They don't renovation. Yeah, I mean they need the atmosphere. I guess did you did you spend much time or do you say the night where you like trying to like see if you could. Unfortunately you can't

do that. I would have loved to do that with like a school Scooby doo kind of thing, I know, to spend the night in the castle I mean or in bah blad cell I mean either yeah, but the cattle or not. No, I didn't do that, and I never spent the night in Blahlabah. I didn wander around the soup, and the soup has an interesting um. There's

a what my students called the Leading tree. So supposedly there was there were some people that were someone who's who was suspected of practicing witchcraft, I think, and that it was sometimes between the twelve and the six fourteenth century and anyway, so they executed a few people who are who are who they've suspected to be witches there and on this particular tree. And so this this true.

My students told me that if you just touch this tree, you'll like you'll be cursed and you'll all all these horrible things will happen to you. And so I had to go see it, of course, and I had to touch it. And so I'm still, yes, yes, you know, I wanted to see something, you know, like that. I've always had a longing in for, you know, for there to be something else, you know besides this this. You know, there's got to be something else out there. We'll be

right back after the short break. When you say that you have always felt like there's something out there, what what is like kind of like the framework of your beliefs is it? Is it kind of like in a religious sense, or is it kind of like in a supernatural sense, or is it just like your childhood stories of stuck with you? What do you think is up there?

I have no idea, you know, really, I just but I haven't feeling that there means from the things that I've seen and and other stories and the stories that I've been told, you know, I'd like to think that there's some something else out out there, you know, some kind of power greater than myself, you know that's controlling and uh controlling, pulling the strings, you know, like in the in the Puppet Show or something. But uh, but yeah,

what um. When I was in my twenties, I was really into Carlos Casta Meta and so I read a lot of his stuff, and I went to Mexico and uh, you know, followed some of the things that he does in his books to try to have us to try to recreate you know, his experiences, um um. And you know, I've always just been a fan of of those kind of those kind of stories, you know, because I think it's some kind of human um longing to for there to be something else besides this world. And and that's

I think it's really comforting. And any kind of evidence, even if it's scary or um, you know, even even if you even if you would not like to have any kind of face to face encounter with it, it is. I think it's reassuring to know that there is something else, you know. I think that's why people look to religion and they look too, you know, they want to believe these kind of stories, because it gives them some sense of comfort that you know that the death is not

the end. It is just you know, a new beginning. That's interesting. I never actually thought about that. I mean, I I thought about people's belief in the paranormal in the sense that, okay, we have to find some way to explain things that we can't understand. The unknown itself is scary. But I never thought about it um from that angle that if we believe in something, even if it's something evil, something terrifying, something that we don't want

to encounter, it means that we're not. It like, there's definitely a world greater than us, and there's other things and that has its own sense of hope attached to it. That's really interesting. Um okay, So I want to talk about when when that lady arrived from Boston and you received her, and what was your impression and uh what happened? Tell us the story. Yeah, well, um, you know, she

didn't look like she was possessed by Jim. She looked a little jet lagged, and she was personable, and you know, she seemed like someone I would you know, I could connect with her because I think for the same reason they I mean, for the same for the reason she was there in Oman. She she flew all the way just for this and she didn't even stay like she just came for that. She did. She she went for Rukia for for the exorcism and then and she was gone like the next day. So uh so I kind

of I like those kind of people. I like the kind of people that were you know, they take it to the they see how far can they can take it, you know, And um, she seemed like that kind of lady. Um. Yeah, But so it was me and her and my friend Hemmed. He was. He was Um, he's a local guy and he had never he'd heard of Wadam Silent but he never met him. But he went along as our translator and so the local who was he was game to

go to the most haunted place in the country. Yeah, but he's you know how many this kind of a westernized guys. He's spent a lot of time with ex pats and Kay, he's not your typical money you know, he's um. Most of the monies are like really friendly and you know, really willing to be like you know, typical like a hospitable kind of people. Uh. But he's you know, more open minded to you know, these kind of things. He actually had a few experiences. He had

he had one experience before with the Gin. And you know, if you if you talked to Um, Yeah, if you talk to anyone who's uh, who's in Islam or you know, Muslim, and no, almost everyone believes in jin and they almost all believe in angels too, But no one, no one I've met, has ever had an experience at first an experience with an angel. But almost everyone has some kind

of Gin story. So I don't know what that tells you yeah, but that's I think that's a very astute observation and what would you come to think of it? Although I will say my one of my grandfather's claims to have had an encounter with angels in Mecca. But that's like one out of every single Muslim I nose, so it's very wrong. Wow okay, So so okay, So you pick her up and you drive and suddenly there's a storm. Well I've been brewing that day. You know.

It was like at that time of the year, we get these winds from the north to Chamalia and sometimes it you know, it collides with the um with the moisture from the gulf of them on and you know, we get these big sandstorms. So yeah, I've been brewing that day and and it was it was a pretty

bad one actually. I mean the visibility was really low and I was driving my little keep a count don't I was getting battered around the road on the road and you know, there's kind of spattered, there's spattering him rain here and there, and everyone's driving with their lights on and so it's yeah, I was did anything perfect like signs to you. I was like, this is like a movie, man, this is so cool. This is like,

you know, this is like can't pick up. We couldn't have picked a better day to go to blah bla, you know, for the atmosphere. So I was like, you know, I was really I was into us as I was loving it and I was like eating it up. Yeah. So then you get to uh Bam Salem's house and

tell me what that was, like, what they what happened. Well, I wasn't even sure if he was going to be there, So there was a little tension and there there because you know, because she she flew come all this way, and you know, I talked to him like a couple

of days before, but we hadn't reconfirmed. You know, in the in the Middle East, you always have to like, you know, okay, you know I'm gonna I'm gonna be coming over tomorrow, you know, and then you reconfirmed the day of and like when you're about to leave, you send a message and then you know you have to like this has to be a lot of reassurance of people just assume you're not gonna come. So I didn't do any of that. I just did kind of like the Western thing and like, okay, I'll see in two

days and you know, I didn't talk to him again. So, um, but he's retired, so you know, we're too gonna go. He's he's there at this house most of the time. So anyways, we got there and and yeah, so I introduced it introduced him to this woman from Boston and my friend hmmed and and the storm was, um, it was. It was kind of strange because the storm was all around us at this point, you know, and it was but I guess we're like in the eye of the storm or something. And so so yeah, that was that

was a little weird. And there was like this it was like this kind of electric electricity in the air, I guess from the I don't know how electricity builds, but how that works, but there's like these little you know, like I guess the static electricity or what it is in the in the clouds. So it was an eerie kind of atmosphere for you know, a day for an

exorcistem you know. Um. So yeah, um, and didn't what happened well, um, and then we were we came we went inside and um, and then the and then the electricity went off, not immediately, but at some point you know, when we started the When we started the um, we were they were going to do the wood, which is like when you you know, the ritual cleansing of the hands and feet, you know, because it is you know, a sacred Islamic ritish and there's a certain protocol to

be fallen. But so um, but we we just he decided to skip that because um, because the electricity went out, and you know, there was so yeah, I guess the electricity went off because of the storm, you know, And so he lit a candle and then there was like this. When he lit the candle, it was like this strange shadow across the wall. I don't know if it was from the candle or and it's like the smell of sulfur that it could have been from the matches. I don't know, but at all it was like it was

really weird. And then what did the shadow look like?

What was what was the shape the shadow? It was just like I don't know, if you've ever been up for a few days in a row and you start to see this, it's kind of it was like that it was like one of these shadows that you catch like in the in the corner of your out of the corner of your eye, and you're not sure if you really saw it or not, but it's enough to make to give you the creeps, you know, give you a you know question, were you the only one to

see it? Or did anybody see it? Now? We all kind of we all like turned our heads and like, okay, what the hell was that? You know? So yeah, um, so the lights flickering and then uh, maybe it was maybe it was some kind of I don't I don't know what the sound was, but it was like it was like a strange kind of a whispering sound at

the same time the shadow appeared. And then and then at that point that at that point, um, while I'm Stylom started to surrect to recite apart from the last two chapters of the Koran, which were all about, you know, what to do in these kind of situations when someone is possessed by a gent so he started to recite that, and um, yeah, so that was what's going on with the woman who's possessed. So she like lying on the floor.

She I mean, we exercist. I'm assuming it wasn't that extreme. No, she didn't float, unfortunately, but but that was at that point I wouldn't have you know, I wouldn't have been surprised, So uh yeah, she she lied back down on she she lied on the in the middle of the room,

down on the middle of the room. And then and she and he was like reciting the Koran over her, and then her looked like that her eyes rolled rolled back into her head and she you could see like the whites of her eyes only, and and she let out to smoan. It was like some kind of like I don't know, like a primal scream or something. And it was weird. It was like definitely nothing I've ever experienced before. You know, did you feel scared in the moment?

It was like it was so strange that I was I felt like frozen, kind of like I don't know if I mean, it was it was so weird. I was like it was so um like captivating, but the captivating it was kind of like like watching a train wreck. You know, you can't pull away, you can't pull your eyes away, So uh yeah, it was. It was. It was Mondo bizarre for sure. And but did you get me answer, did you get the sense that what was happening in front of you was like real? That's the thing.

I think that's that's what made me not want to look not want to look away, because I wanted to see like, Okay, this is this like actually happening. And it was like because you know, as he was reciting this, this, as they was reciting the Koran this, uh yeah, she started to make this the sound and and the you know, the whites of her eyes and the storm and it was it was it was intense, you know, it was

like it was really it was heavy. So um so yeah, I mean I was just I just saw what I saw, and I don't I don't know if it was that's really what what happened, you know, if it was you know, the gin was actually leaving her body, but it seemed to me that that's like I think that's what was happening. I mean, I can't there's no way I could like confirm scientifically, you know, like this is true what happening, And it was just my experience and what I saw.

But but that's also that's also I'm assuming what um the exorcist said was happening. And she reported that she felt was happening too, that this thing was leaving her body. Yeah. Afterwards, she said that she felt like a sense of you know, lightness like she I mean, she was and disoriented at first, and um, she doesn't remember the point when we were like, you know, holding her down because she started convulsing, you know, after this primal scream came out, came out of her

and before she settled down. And at one point I remember that a few years ago. So I'm just trying to uh, the molem had some holy water and he like splashed her with it, and you know, um so um so she began and you guys had to hold like physically like me and Hammed had to hold her her arms down. So she she's like started to like thrash about. And I guess this is at this point when the you know, the gin was leaving her body or whatever it was. You know, maybe it was maybe

it wasn't a gym. Maybe it was like her repressed traumatic memories or I don't know, um, who knows what what the gin really is, you know, And maybe it was just like a way for the people and a long time ago to try to explain this kind of like epilepsy or like these other kind of the childhood traumas or something you know, like post traumatic stress disorder. I don't know, I don't know what it was, but uh something, but something was happening for sure. So how

long did this exorcism like take place. It wasn't that long. Actually, it was like maybe ten and fifteen minutes. I mean once it's once I get started. Yeah, it's pretty quick. I mean it's quick work to extract a gin from somebody, it seems like given what we've seen like in the movies and film and stuff. But and how how was she afterwards? Yeah, she seemed like she seemed really happy that. I mean, she was kind of just warranted at first.

And um, she really wanted a cigarette afterwards because it was, like I AM, pretty intensive experience for her, I guess, but she she felt like I think she felt that she was it was worth her while to come all that way to him on to you, to do the research to find me and to go visit this guy. And and I'm assuming he charges for his services, right, Like how does he make a living? Yeah? Yeah, he does, Um, and that's up that's just up to the client. I mean I think she gave him like a hundred dollars

or something like that. Whatever the client wants to give. Yeah, just like she didn't. He didn't have like at price price list on the door, and so yeah, yeah, so, um, your story ends, Your story about her ends kind of mysteriously because it seems like later on she feels like, actually she is still possessed. Yeah. Um, so you guys, basically after she left, you stayed in touch. No, we didn't, not for a long time, and then just just a

couple of I guess it was just last year. I started to think about the experience and thought, you know, that was that's kind of a crazy story. You know why I should I should write that up. And so I contact her again just to check up, you know it, saying, hey, you know how to go with you did? Did your visit to Aman? Did it really help you? And she told me that it did for a while, you know it did. It definitely brought her some kind of peace.

But she had to go on and do some further research, and she ended up going to Indonesia because there's a lot of possessions in Indonesia and there's lots of people who do the rukia there and she had to really she told me a really crazy story about you know that involved blood and maggots and um, and there was some kind of nefarious like, um, not everybody in Indonesia who does these exorcisms is on the level, so there's

some some nefarious things going on. And I think she encountered one of those, if I remember correctly, she encountered one of those guys. She was uh, basically kind of doing like a parlor trick to to satisfy his clients. And you know with the kind of like what they did.

And I can't remember when it was popular, but at one point in the United States, these seances, the contacting the dead was like a really popular fun thing to do at parties, you know, and they would bring in these mediums and there's a lot of people like that and it used to do this, but you know, in the Islamic world, um, not just for fun, but you know, for profit and for because people would like so fervently believe and you know that they're possessed by these gend

they're willing to go to any length. And then if they get these dramatic results and you know there's blood and maggots and weird things happening like you see in the in the horror films that they have a huge horror film industry in Indonesia by the way. But anyway, so if you so, if you see these kind of things and you feel like you're getting your money's worth and you know, and it creates more business for the guy.

So UM, So that happened to her and then and then I think she finally did find someone who's legitimate. And I haven't heard from her since and that was that was that was last year, the last time I heard from her. Um. But she also I think she later she went to Malaysia because there's a big um because Malaysians Muslim country, and so there's lots of people who are possessed there. And then there's the whole Malaysians uh slant on how exorcisms are done, and you know

what that entails. And so I think there's so much, there's so much I don't know about it. You know. What I experienced was just like a little you know, like a little snapshot of like a much bigger picture of if you you know, if you're looking into paranormal phenomenon in Islamic world, I'm guessing. Um, every kind of culture has its own like you know, angle to the exorcisms that like resonates with with the locals and makes

sense given like the context and stuff. And that's also something that I thought it would be kind of formulated and that makes sense. It's really interesting. So for you, um, what have you thought about like and one other things? I mean, that's this is not the only stuff you've write about. You write about like you your work is like about a lot of different like cultural aspects of

that region. But it's something that you've thought about pursuing more in depth, Like is it something you still think about or you're just like, wow, that was interesting and I'm I'm done. It's it is what it is. No, I mean, I would love to go to Indonesia to look more into like what's happening there, because I think that's a really interesting situation there because of the mix

of beliefs there. You know, they have before before Islam came, there was I mean there was Hinduism, and before Hinduism they had the Japanese had their own animistic beliefs and those beliefs mixed with the Hinduism, and then they brought some of those beliefs with them into Islam. And so like this really interesting mix of beliefs and they all seem to to co exist fairly peacefully, you know, like

when there was a riot or something going on. But I just they think the mix of that would be really interesting to see and I would like to go visit some of these Charlottean's, you know, to see just try to sort out who's real and who's not, you know what anything that would be and I mean the fascinating peace to to go, especially with someone who was like, you know, truly felt like they were actually affective and had it were possessed by Jen, you know, to that

would I think that would be a pretty moving peace. Have you are you do you still living them on? No, I'm in the UI, you know, but I mean I mean Czech Czech Republic for the summer, but and living in the U A un okay, something similar there? Or is it? Is it kind of a different culture much

more like kind of progressive there? Well, um, it's not famous for having you know, the there's no ba in the UI e but um there there is um some degree of you know, the same beliefs there because it is and it's you know, Muslim country and so um you know, occasionally it comes up when I'm with my students. You know, we talked about these these kind of things come up, and uh, sometimes we'll talk about gin and angels and you know, these these different beliefs and so

the people but they're believing them too, you know. So and most of my students have some kind of story that involves the gin. So uh. And then you know the first person that the woman from Boston that I helped, she went, she went to go see was actually in charge. So there's there are people who do exercistems there too. Mhm. Well, I I mean I don't know if I'd be able to,

but I'd love to speak to this lady. And given especially the fact that she's kind of traveled the world and I mean took I mean that's you know, I mean like that's something that you're taking very seriously if you're gonna be that committed to addressing this issue. Um, so maybe that's a possibility. But um, what are your kind of like plans going forward? You have any other anything in the pipeline? And where do you write because

I'd love for our listeners to check out your pieces. Yeah, most of my stuff you can find on the Matador Network. Just google Baxter Jacks to Matador. The list should pop up of most of my pieces that have been for them over the years. I'm assuming you're open to other people reaching out with their GIN stories. Yeah, I would love to hear them for sure. That I mean, I'm fascinated by the supernatural and people have had firsthand experiences

like that. So yeah, well, I'd love it if you ever returned to Oman and did like a ghost Hunter's type of episode in Bahalla. That would be a lot of take some video. Yeah, but I would love to do that. It would be cool the Ghostbusters the Oman

edition exactly. Well, thank you so much. This has been really interesting and I guess I just want to end with one final kind of question to you, although I feel like you've answered it in different ways, um, and that is this after everything kind of you you've lived in the region what thirteen years now, um, and everything you've have experienced firsthand and stories you've heard, like where do you got to fall on the spectrum of like

do you believe jin exists? I don't know, UM, I mean I know what I saw, I know what other people have experienced. UM. I like to believe I guess. I guess you could say that I'm sort of still agnostic. I don't. I don't know for sure, but you don't know that they don't. You don't know that they don't. Right,

that's right, what about you and your Muslin? Right? I am? Yeah, I well, you know, it's one of those things where it's like the way I think about it was like like if I if I am a person of faith, like pretty much of any faith, and I have some belief in something supernatural, this is how religion is, and so then how do you draw a line where I believe this? But that's going too far? Right? Like so to me, I, like you said, if you believe in angels and you believe in God and you believe in Satan,

then like why are Jim's way too fantastical? Like that's so that the realm of But yeah, let's right, let's not go too far. Um, so it's not too far from me. I do absolutely believe there are phenomen that we don't understand, we might not ever understand. I don't think everything that people experience they think is jin is always jin. I think there are often times and I've seen this myself in my own life where people have let's say, deep mental health issues or they are trauma.

There's so many other things that happened that we might interpret that way or it's just easier to deal with that way. Maybe. But having said that, I mean when I hang out in the castle and at night, probably not. I'm not trying to court. I don't want to bring

them home. And honestly, to be honest, Baxtor, And in this interview series, the very first episode I hope you get a chance to listen to it will be with my husband talking about like our personal experience and so I have had some experiences that I'm like, I what else could it be? Like a GIN or something anyhow,

But anyway, thank you again. I really appreciate your time, and I'm going to continue to follow your work and I help you get to Indonesia and uh and fill us all in And you know I would totally read that and watch that. Okay, Hey, thanks, thanks a lot for for this interview. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Now, there are as many people in the world with GIN stories as there are GIN, So if you have one you'd like to share, make sure to email it to me at the Hidden Gin

at gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th H E H I D D E N d J I n n at gmail dot com. And until next time, remember we are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted by Robbiah Chaudrey and produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our

theme song was created by Patrick Quartets. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.