Out Of Body Experience

from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss how and why this series came about in a very personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy.

I am so excited for this conversation this week because I'm getting to have a really fun conversation with a good friend of mine, somebody I love and admire, um, and somebody who's kind of like a co conspirator in the true crime space, UM, and somebody I'm a fan of. Patrick Heinz Patrick Hynes. For those of you know who Patrick is. You probably discovered him on his incredibly popular podcast called True Crime Obsessed. But Patrick has been in

the podcast business way longer than that. He was podcasting back in two thousand and thirteen, well before everybody else was. He was the founder of the Theater Podcast Productions, and he's also the creator, co producer and host of The Theater People Podcast, a very cool podcast featuring full length interviews of Tony Winners of Broadway Legends and today's brightest

theater stars. Now, since then, Patrick has moved on into the true crime space, really just taking it over with True Crime Obsessed, his co host Jillian Pensylvali and his fairly new show called Obsessed with Disappeared Um, which I love both of them. I follow them religiously to my favorite shows. But we're not gonna be talking about true crime today. Well okay, maybe just a little bit. We will be talking about some some some intersections between true

crime and the supernatural world. We're gonna be talking about the fact that Patrick, throughout his whole life, has experienced all kinds of really interesting, supernatural and unexplicable phenomenon. Every time he's talked about this online, I'm like just wrapped. And I was like, when I started this podcast, I said, you know what, I gotta talk to Patrick about all this, and I also got to tell them all about the

gin because he knows nothing about them. So let's do this let's talk to maybe one of my favorite people in all of podcasting, Patrick Hines. Hi and welcome Patrick. Thank you so much for joining me this week. Hi, my love, it's it's so good to be your face. Like I know, I was just gonna say that, I get to like sit in my little studio and actually I get to look at your glorious beauty. High you know what I gotta say, Listeners, I'm sorry you don't

get to actually witness us. You're gonna get the audio, but we get to see each other and that's fun. And my hair is out of control right now. I don't know you should like hang up on me. I'm looking at my own hair in this thing, and like I have not, I truly not had a haircut. Personal hygiene, personal hygiene in the time of quarantine, personal grooming. It's all optional. My eyebrows are about to grow together. At

least about the one eyebrow. You would have the most glorious unit one you would make it cheat, I would say, the face mask would really you know, like highlight it. Yeah, that's but thank you so much again. And I know here's the thing, this is the this is the fun thing for me. Because Patrick was like, how do I prepare for this? I was like, no, no, no, just come on, I'm gonna And the other thing is that Patrick, you know, I think nothing about this project and nothing

with the subject. But there's a reason I wanted you on. So let me tell you a little bit about what's happening. And so you are going to be part of my Patreon series that goes along with the main Gin series that by the time this airs, has already been airing. Um so, do you have any idea what a GIN is? No? I think that you and I talked about this, maybe even a year ago. Um, when you were like, this was beginning to bubble in your brain. Is something you might want to do? I feel like it's the word

folklore comes to mind. But that's as much. That's as far as I've got. Okay, So let me tell you a little bit about the world of jin. Of course you better be listened to my podcast by time. Are you kidding? Already pre subscribed? Awesome? Um? So basically, yeah, So the realm of Gin is there's tons of folklore and legend and stories and like the but it's actually much deeper than that because it's a tied to scripture.

It's tied to Jewish picture even and it's even pre it's even pre Jewish Muslim Christian scripture, like the Jin are referred to like forty times in the Muslim scripture. Like that's how serious we take it, Like we're like, wow, these things are real, and it is a huge universe of them. I mean forget like any kind of like Marvel universe of characters. Like, it's a huge universe of jin. There's a million of them. Everybody has their personal one. Is what You've got one with you right now. It's

gonna born and die with Yeah. Yeah, they're freaky um, and so there's Jewish demonology tied with it. Then it goes all the way back to antiquity like in Babylonia and Assyria and like they were worshiped at one time. It's freaking But the way that people who believe in the Gym think about them is that they're kind of responsible all this phenomenal. We can't figure out ghosts and crop circles and whatever. It's it's it's all we all just categorize it as, oh, it's a jin, it's a

gin ff thing with us whatever. Oh, I love it. So when you told me you've had multiple like supernatural experiences, I'm like, in my head, I'm like, oh that's Jim Patrick has no idea. I give mess mugin. That's so interesting. I when you say that they're born with you and they die with you. I I've always felt that it's it's weird. It's like, you know, I felt like you

have some presents or something. Yeah. Yeah, Like I think about the handful of like supernatural experiences I've had in my life are like probably number in like the eight to ten. You know that's good. That's a lot. Yeah, Well one is happening right now. Girl. I So we're at our office and we have this door that we like our office has a couple of different rooms in it, and there's this door that keeps opening by itself, and it's so it's just it's so freaky and like there's

no it's just the door. It's not like a traditional door that you can like close and you hear it like lap but like you pull it close. It's kind of like a cheap, flimsy door. So maybe there's just something wrong with the door, but like you can hear it click shut, and then like when you're not looking, it just opens by itself. It's very freaky. Well, this is this this kind of like the latest phenomena. But I want to go I want to like take Patrick back

to like a little Patrick. Yeah, I want to hear about Okay, first of all, were you raised in any kind of like a faith tradition or any kind of like any kind of tradition that actually would like you know, kind of accounts for some of your like ideas around these things. Um So, so my mom is a lesbian. I was raised in like the lesbian but my mom was like a very is a very staunch Christian, and she was a Catholic forever. Loved being Catholic. I was an ultra boy forever. I really enjoyed it as a

young person, do I know. I like, I'm a very spiritual person. I totally believe in God, but like I'm not a religious person at all. And um but my mom was very I mean this is a little bit like lesbian nineties lesbian style. My mom was very into like crystals and energy and go, like, you know, any time I had any sort of experience, my mom totally believed me, you know, And I would always tell her

about it. Yeah, yeah, and so like I mean, from the time that I was a little kid, I would I guess I would say, this sounds so corny, but like I would have weird little premonitions, nothing major, but I would sort of like a song, Like we'd be in the car and like we'd be listening to the radio and I'd be humming a song and it would be like the next song that would come on or whatever.

But then I would start having like weird I know, I started having weird like not weird, but I started having like dreams and sort of like, um, I mean when I was in like middle school, high school, I would have like out of body experiences sometimes and it would be like it was it would be like when I would okay, let me ask this. Those out of bodies were those something that you like wanted to have and ord because look, I had a phase when I was younger. Ilse like I heard about this thing and

I would try to make it happen. It didn't happen for me. Yeah, I know, so I I did not want it to happen. I wanted it to not happen. And I had a couple of bouts of sleep paralysis, which I don't know if you know about this, but like like there were there were a condful of times when I was like, you know, I would say probably fourteen or fifteen, where I always took naps in the afternoon because I would come home from school and then I would have like drama club at like six o'clock,

so I would like take a nap in between. I know it's such a little theater gay um, but like I would that would be the time, like if I was to have an out of body experience, it would be then. And I remember one time experiencing this about of like sleep paralysis where I was awake but completely unable to move, and I saw things in my room, like I saw like there was a woman who was wearing like it looked like like almost like colonial garb, like floating in my room. And I don't know if

it has to do with like puberty. I've read some stuff that like that that that like that there is something about that. But I remember talking to my mom about this stuff. At the time. I saw a ghost

around the same time. It was not a scary experience, but like I shared a room with my brother and I remember waking up in the middle of the night and there was this woman dressed sort of as a nun that was sort of standing at the top of our stairs, um in the like in the like in the I don't know what you call that, like at the top of the stairs. And I could see it out of my bedroom. It wasn't scary. She came into

the room and like said, I know. She came into the room and sat down on my brother's bed, and for some reason, I was not scared, and she sort of motioned for me to like lie back down, and I did, and she started like stroking my brother's hair. I know. But I remember talking to my mom about this stuff, and my mom was saying, She's like, I think that you're like a sensitive person like you you experienced these things that she was saying, if you want

this to stop, you have to pray about it. You have to pray and ask the universe or whatever God you believe in to make it stop. And I did, and it did, you know, it did for the most part. I do think. I think um and and people do believe like the veil for some is thinner right because you are open to the possibility but you're also much more sensitive and receptive to everything that's happening around you, and you're willing to understand it in a certain way.

It's like how some people can actually be hypnotized for real and some people dust cannot. We were just looking about this yesterday. Is hypnotis real? Is that? Is it real? Yeah? Yeah, it can. It can absolutely truly be used. I know it sounds so crazy, but people have been able to retrieve memories, real memories, actual like memories that I have, like corroborated memories, verified that they couldn't before. Or they've been able to remember even details like in criminal cases

of crimes or something. But it doesn't work for everybody. I mean, you know, obviously our brains one of these big old sponges. They see everything and hear stuff, and it's it's in there somewhere. We just can't read it right, because when you hear people under hypnosis and their voices sound different, it's so creepy. Yeah. Now, I've talked to people who have been hypnotized, and for for the for the people who worked like I've tried to get hypnotized

because I was like I want to do this. It didn't work for me because I was just too hyper aware of you know, It's like it's like wanting it to happen, wanting it to work. Yeah, I can't relax in a bath because I'm like, you know, I'm sit there and I'm like too hyper aware of everything that's going on. My brain won't shut off. But I have talked to people who really did experience it for real and where it was able to help them act three um, like through some therapy scenarios and stuff. So okay, so

I want to talk a lot. So you said it stopped, So then like, for what month of your filthhood you didn't experience it or what happened? I would say that I felt more in control of it, you know what I mean? Like I would say that like when I was a kid, especially around my puberty years, like between the ages of twelve to fifteen or sixteen, I feel like this stuff was happening all the time, and it felt like scary to me. And I kind of like your brother too, or your mother too, or anybody else

in the family or just do do you know? That's such an interesting question. I I have never we've never

talked about it. I would imagine that my mom, I don't know, I've never God, Robbie, I'm now having this realization of like, wow, a little bit self possessed, Arni Patricks that like, you love to share these stories, but you've never asked your own family if they've None of my family has ever come up and said like any like anything like this has ever happened to them, Because I feel like your mom's response is almost the kind of response that somebody would have if if they get it,

like they're like, oh yeah, yeah, like I totally yeah. I mean, you know, my mom has always said that her mother, who I never I guess I met her when I was very very young, but I don't have any memories of her. But she lived in Manhattan, and I live in Manhattan. My mom's mom was like a New Yorker, like you know, like loved New York and the whole thing. My mom says that she feels like her mother is like with me. So when you said that, like they're born with you and they die with you

like that, that sort of struck me. Like I feel like my my grandmother, who I've never met, I feel like she is with me sometimes, Like there are times that I I went to a medium once and had like a reading and she was like, yeah, her Ruth, like she said her name, and I was like, oh my god, it's true. And she's like you should talk to her, like you should talk to her because like that makes it stronger, you know, don't know. Yeah, I talked to her. She's probably in this room high room.

Hey girl opening the door in the other room. Okay, So okay, the gosh well hopefully when I mean ruthe but but okay, so the Ruth might be with you, but there might be something else with you too. So the gym that's born with you and dies with you, that's like your own personal thing. But the ghost phenomena of people like lingering with us, that's also. God I've seen, I mean, I've seen people who have passed like in my dreams that are so real that I just know

it's really I know they're actually talking to me. This is not like me making stuff. That's how it really is. Totally. Yes, I've said this recently. It was so funny. I was we were when when the COVID first happened, before any lockdowns or anything like that happened. My husband and my daughter and I left the city because we knew that they were gonna lock down Manhattan. We don't we live in eight square feet. We're like, we gotta get out of here. We don't have a yard, like our kids

got to be able to play outside. So we left. We got a cabin in Massachusetts and I had I had a ghost sighting there and it was just super super boring ghost sighting. But I mentioned it that sounds really like that. It's not even possible. You can not have a super boring ghost sighting. Girl, This ghost was asleep. It was so it was like, I'll tell you the

story in a second. But like I mentioned it on True Crime Obsessed and somebody heard it and this lady called me and asked me if she could interview me about it, and I thought it was just for a blog, and it ended up being for a story for the New York Times. So I have told this now and then I got a million interview request about it. I've told the story like ten million times in the last two months. But it was, um oh, I am very concerned that I missed that story. How did that happen? Okay, Oh,

it's a fascinating story. It's all about people who are seeing like ghosts in quarantine and like is it real or are we all just like going crazy? Look that up. Okay, it's really interesting. I mean, like, this was the thing where I just woke up at like two in the morning and I went to get a glass of water, and as I was walking to like into the kitchen, I noticed that there was like a person sitting at the at the kitchen table, like an older man and

like a like an old school military uniform. And in my brain it's sort of like made sense to me because it wasn't our house, and I was like, oh, this is like his house. And and then when I sort of realized what was happening, I looked over and I saw him and he had his head down on his chest. He looked like he was asleep, and then all of a sudden, he was just gone, Oh my gosh, what God. And Julian said, Jillian my coast said to me, go through the photo albums in the house and see

if you can find anybody who looks like him. But I realized they have a whole family tree wall in their house, and I went and looked at it, and it goes all the way back, and I didn't really see the ghost face, so I don't know what he looks like. But I saw all these men from like the twenties that looked like in these military uniforms, which crazy. So I just have to know how the rest of

that night played out. Did you just get your water and go back to bed, like, oh, well, I literally like, oh, I just saw a ghost and then I went and I almost didn't tell Steve, my husband, about it the next day. It was such a non occurrence that I almost didn't mention it. And I told him, And of course Steve doesn't believe in any of this stuff. It's like, no, Steve is the most like you know, you're born and then you're you know, yeah, you're born and you die.

Guy out there, you just not believe in any of it. Oh my gosh. It's tough to live with someone because you know what, then the other person is like, oh, you're just like some crazy conspiracy theorist. But I'm glad you're making your marriage work despite this difference. But okay, but even before you went out to this, I feel like an old cabin in um in Matthews makes sense to me, like that's where like if you're gonna find

like lingering spirits, that's gonna be there. But you've had experiences like in flipp in Manhattan, right like in your in your home. I'm trying to think about them, uh, experience with Daisy or something. Oh yes, in our Okay. So we've moved several times in the last couple of years. But our first apartment that we lived in with Daisy day,

I never saw anything in this apartment but Daisy. We would hear Daisy as like a two year old talking to somebody, like literally, and then and then we and we would like here on the baby monitor, and then um, I'm trying one day, and then she started talking about the man. She started talking about the man in her room. So she would say, like, Daddy, the man woke me up this morning. And I would say, which man, the man that lives in my room? Daddy, the man that

lives in my room? I know, I know, Okay, Okay. The debaby baby monitor have like was it a video monitor? No? And that was the thing that we we had debated getting and I was sort of like, I kind of can't handle the idea of like seeing her talking to like that would just scare the ship out of me. And I can't handle that. But you could hear her talking, yeah, so what do you do, Like George, don't really make like real like they don't make like, you know, real sentences.

But she's responding, yeah, totally. And she would talk about the man, the man that lived in her room, and it was just like, oh my god. And you know she six now and like I don't remember anything from when I was two, she still talks about that apartment, in that room, like there was she had some sort of connection to it. Does she remember the man she talked to? I haven't asked her about that in a

long time. I should ask her. I don't want to scare her because now she would understand better, but I should ask her about that. Well, what did she tell you about the man? What did she have to say

about him? She would say, not a lot. I remember that, like she would he would be there like when the lights were off, like it was never when the lights were on, and we never, like you can't get like, Daisy is not one to Daisy is not a woman of many words as it is, so as soon as you she senses that you're trying to get information out of her, she just completely clams up. So yeah, it was it was always just more like, oh, the man woke me up this morning, and it was something. It

wasn't like a thing that happened all the time. I remember she probably said that like once or twice, and it was like, oh my god, so did Steve. What does Steve think? She's just loot any dream? Like he just doesn't pay any attention to it. He's just like whatever, She's just she's just talking, you know. Well, so let me ask you this. If the nun didn't scare you, was there ever? I'm guessing the sleep paralysis was kind

of frightening. That was terrifying. That was terrifying because I knew I was awake and I couldn't move Like that is positive you were awake. I mean, I guess I would say I remember it so vividly now and I remember in the moment, so it didn't right now, I'm awake and like I'm very awake, right, but like it didn't feel like this, But it definitely I never had words for it until very recently. I feel like sleep roalysis became a thing that people started talking about maybe

five or six years ago. So before that, I just was like I was awake and I couldn't move. And it wasn't like I came out of it. It was like I kind of I guess I went back to sleep and then I woke up. It wasn't like I can't move, I can't move, I can't move it now I can't move. Um, it was I I can't move and that is terrifying. And there is a woman hovering

in my room. And so I never knew about When I learned about sleep prosis and I learned I heard other people's stories about it, it was similar where it was like things that you would be having nightmares about, but they're actually like they look real and they're in your space. And I was like, I have that experience. I I that happened to me. We'll be right back after the short break. One of the one of the episodes I do talk about sleep paralysis and actually how

common it is. And what's interesting is it's a phenomena that's like experienced in every culture and every point in history. It's been documented forever um and it's a it's very everybody's experiences are really similar. What what is actually the only usual difference is like kind of the cultural context. So people are seeing things that makes sense to them.

So you might not see, for example, um, like a creature from Zimbabwe, right because it's that makes sense in your cultural right right there, you're gonna see, Yeah, you're gonna see what would what would make sense to you and scare you accordingly, Oh that's so interesting. Has that ever happened to you? It has not. Um, I feel like maybe I'm I don't know, maybe I need to like soften my edges or something like I want, I want to expect. I've had some experiences that are definitely

I feel like they're supernatural. Now, Susan Simpson, who's my attorney in my colleague on Disclosed, is like somebody broke into your house and did X Y Z and you just never knew it. And I'm like, no, I don't think that was what happened. I would imagine that Susan Simpson is not a believer, And like, I feel like Susan Simpson and Steve are very similar. Probably yeah, they're very Yeah, you kind of if if I can see, if I can touch it, I can understand it. Whatever.

But but I believe it's kind of like, you know, one of the things I say, like you said at the top of the show. You like at the top of the episode you said, you know, I believe in God. It's like if you believe in God, then it's like where are your lines? Like you can't kind of be like I believe in God, but I don't believe that X Like if you can believe in something that kind of fantastical, like why can't you leave in other things? Could?

I know? And I love that, Like I love the freedom to think different things on different days, you know what I mean, Like I think that like I definitely yeah, yeah, Like I definitely believe in God. I want to believe that there's some sort of afterlife, but like do I believe in like heaven? That seems weird, you know what I mean? Like, oh that's interesting. Okay, that's a whole show. I know, I know, I know, because like if there's an afterlife but there's nowhere to go, what do you

do just hang around? I know and think some people get stuck here and where you know what I mean, Like you would think that by now Like the other like the counter to it is that like if there was like a god in a heaven and like an afterlife. You would think they're somebody would have been able to prove it by now, don't you think. I mean only the dead can prove. I mean like how do you

how do you don't know? I mean so okay, so for me the whole I mean, that's why it's called faith, right, Like you do you have to believe in something you can't,

you have no way to bear FI. Although I'd say people who have had near life or near death experiences excuse me, um, almost always come back with like if they were not believers in something supernatural, they come back as because they have a very and they all have very similar of course, scientists are like, well that's your brain breaking down that tunnel of light and yeah, I mean, look if that's what the afterlife is, and um, but it's hard for me to believe that outside of my

physical body, that I don't exist in another way like yeah, yeah, that's what's hard to And I'll tell you, like I've definitely experienced the I want to hear the auto body experiences. Hello, so you have experienced it. Yeah, It's it's hard to say because like I've never had the experience of like floating out my window and like over this like now I'm flying through the city. Like when you when I'm awake and I think about out of body experiences, that's

kind of the the experience you want to have. And it was one of the things when I was younger. I would experience it when I was taking a nap. It was never like at night when I was going to sleep. You know, there was something about the taking of a night and it would either be when I was right when I was falling asleep or right when

I was waking up. I mean, have you ever heard that experience when you're you're either trying to fall asleep or you're just about to wake up, and you feel like you're falling in like you kind of get that sensation of following that's never happened to you, never happened to me. I have a I have my weird in that twilight whatever I call it, like twilight between sleep

and awake experiences. I always hear a door slam um, and it's terrifying because I don't know if it's real or not real, if somebody's somebody's outside, like you know, that's my That's what I I've never had the falling experience, but that's what interesting. So I've felt that, But I've also had the experience of being asleep or being almost asleep and starting to feel that separation. People are gonna think I'm crazy, but starting to feel that separation of

like coming out of my body. And I remember when I was younger really fighting it, being like, uh, like it's so scary and you don't wanted to happen. And oh recently, I would say, this happened to me while I was living in my current apartment. We've been there for about two years. I remember having the experience of being like, okay, like let this happen, like let's see

what happens. Yeah, and sort of feeling that sort of like coming out of my body and sort of I expected it to feel like, Okay, now I'm floating around my apartment and it wasn't that. It was much more of like a blackness, just sort of like a like a like a different like turn around and look at your body, see or you know. I've never had that experience that would be fucking terrifying to me, Like I

I would not enjoy that. This was more feeling that sort of separation, feeling like I was out of my body but not but not being able to see anything, just sort of like a black haze of like you know, sort of atmosphere. That's but but it was a really like a sensation head But did you fall did you fall asleep after that or did you wake up? Yes? No, I fell asleep after that today. I mean there are lots there are lots of stories about people who report

like being in surgery or having something procedure. I was going to ask you about this, Yeah, and then they say they want they could see that, and and the things that they report seeing the doctors like, well, they couldn't have known that because they were Like so there was one doctor I was reading about who actually put markers on the like somewhere on the gurney or whatever they were on that you would not be able to see just by like lying there, so that you would

have to have like you would have like to say, like oh, like the letter R is written on like the wherever, and like the only way you could know that would be like if you actually came out of your body and side like that makes totally like being

in surgery. That makes total sense. To me, you know that, like you would have that sort of well you know, I mean to me, Okay, maybe it's not scientific evidence, but there it's evidence I feel like of something like how how would somebody how had you explained somebody being able to do that unless there's a consciousness that is

separate from the actual physical body. But anyway, after this, basically nobody's gonna believe anything I do or say, So I understand what they say with me, say with me. I know, I know, I know. Let me ask you this. So, you you mentioned that you went to a medium, and I've heard you bring up mediums a number of times in UM two Crib Obsess and also Obsessed with Disappeared, because you know, I listened to both those shows. I

can't believe you listen to both of these shows. Oh my god, you guys like you don't understand how many dark Knights you've gotten me through. And some times I love you guys. So and I've heard you bring up me because I love it, because you kind of dangle it out there because you want your like co host to be like totally jump on and be like yeah, yeah, I mean, but but then you cut it back off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the whole thing. Like my my issue with like psychics.

I totally believe in psychics, but like I feel like they always come out of the woodwork when there's like like a like a known like when there's some sort of like high profile case or whatever, and I feel like it always leads to like a dive team of twelve people dredging a lake and it costs the town eight million dollars and it's a wee resources. But I went to see um. I went to see a medium who was a friend of our friend Laura Bricker when I went to like yeah, yeah, yeah, I can't think

of Susan. Susan Gorman I think is her name. And I went to see her and we had this really cool session like it was. It was I got a lot out of it. And she was one that like knew my grandmother's name. It was weird. Wow, But had you it wasn't the only time you've ever gone to a medium? I think? So, I think it was. I mean it's the kind of thing I would go all

the time, you know, it's just never think to do it. Yeah. Yeah, it's like I don't get time for the manicure pedicure, but you know, you know you want to get I'm always fascinated when I hear stories about law enforcement themselves reaching out to mediums. I'm like, that's a bold move and you're realized putting yourself out there for some criticism to be able to do. And I'm like, I want to hear a story of like a case being solved

by a medium. Like if if law enforcement is reaching out that often, there must be cases out there where they've really helped. Well, there there's a new podcast. I know. Look, inter section, the intersection between true crime and the supernatural? Is this getting more and more clear here? Um? Totally? So? Well do you, um, have you had a truly other than the out of body experience? Have you had a truly terrifying experience with what you think might be like

a malevolent spirit or something. No, I've never had that. Let me think for just a second. No, I mean there was so there when I where I was when I was growing up. I grew up in this like subdivision on Cape Cod and we had a pond. Uh, there was like woods behind my house and then there was a pond and there was a man who died by suicide on one of the trees down there when

I was growing up, he took his own life. He hanged himself, and for years, I mean for decades, the rope was still there, and I know, I mean it's just the rope that was tied around the like, yeah, like for some reason, like when they took down the body, like they just didn't like cut the rope all the way. And there was always I don't know, there was something about that area where I knew that man had died and it was a place that I was at all the time, you know, um that there was something about

that that area that felt scary to me. I mean, obviously a person had died there, so maybe that was just it and I was a kid, um, But I've never had like, I know, I've never had like I really like terrifying you know, like devil encounter or anything like that. Have you? Uh No, But my husband was convinced when I started like researching and scripting for this show. He's like, we are totally a hundred be possessed now, Like so far, other than like items being moved mysteriously,

nothing has happened. So I guess we're okay. I use somebody who I use somebody who loves like horror and Halloween, and I do. I like horror movies. I will say that, like, since I became the father of a little girl, it's sort of changed the way that I watched pop culture or stuff, because I feel like I didn't for some reason. I'm just a bad feminist and I didn't realize that, like the way women are treated and abused in these like for entertainment in these films is just like unwatchable

to me now. Um So that's something that's become more clear to me, Like since I've been a dad, which is stupid. You shouldn't need to have a daughter to like recognize that women aren't being treated very well. Um but I do like horror movies. I do like things that scare me, but I get very scared, Like I get very don't like jump out of the closet scenes. Do you believe in the Devil? No? Really? Yeah, yeah, I was just thinking about that because I was thinking

about how like I don't believe in possession. I don't think that's a real thing. Any thing is happening there, like mental illness her. Yeah, I mean, like all of the possession stuff I've seen. I'm sorry, Catholics, forgive me. I was one of you once. It feels very much like an opportunity for like priests to hit women like you always see these women like tied to chairs or women tied to beds and just horribly abused, like you know,

watch a documentary like there's one. Um, there's a documentary that we covered a couple of years ago called The Devil and Father a mort Um and it was about this possession of this woman in Italy and it was they abused this woman. I mean, crazy story. I hated watching it and so I don't know. I don't I don't think I do believe in the devil. Now you made me saying it out loud, Robi, what's gonna happen

to me? Now? It's okay, Ruth will protect you. Yeah, alright, Well, I don't want to take up any more of your time. But also this is a really fun conversation and I've been thinking about it. I've been thinking about this for a while because every time you something up and I love that whenever you like post about it or tweet about or anything, like, all your listeners are like totally they're lined up with you man, they have your they have your back. I know we have the most like

loyal listeners. Oh my god. I love that they'll follow you anywhere, including into the general and Patrick, I know, I can't wait. You guys were recording this like long before your podcast is out. I cannot wait to hear it. Yeah, I can't wait for you to hear it too. It's gonna be a lot of fun and thank you again. I can't wait for our listeners to hear this conversation because, Yeah, you're just a good dear friend. And I think both of us, both of us kind of like a very

sensitive these kinds of things. I know, like for me, like I can't go to places like Alcatraz. I can't go to places where I know people have suffered because I can't. It just had my whole I can feel that I feel too much pain in it. Yeah, I went to Alcatraz and I actually loved my trip to Alcatraz. Really it was weird. The reason I wanted to go

to Alcatraz is because Matthew Shepard. Do you remember that Matthew sheff You know, the gay kid in Wyoming that was tied to the fence and beaten to death in nineteen of the eight The only really well known pictures of him had been taken of him at Alcatraz like the year before he was murdered. And so I wanted to go and find the places at Alcatraz where he had been, and that was I wanted to feel his energy. That was kind of why I wanted to go there.

But he was, I mean, and I found there's a these like set of stairs where he had like taken some photos and it was kind of like a it was a crazy moment to sort of be there and be like he stood right here, Like that was crazy. Um, But Alcatraz is I'm kind of the opposite. Not that I want to go and like revel in a place where people have suffered, but I love the idea of being in a place where you know something has happened and sort of trying to like feel that energy. Like

I I kind of like I'm drawn to that. Now. I completely understand like the the flip side of that, because like I really want to visit, Like Ashwitz, I really want to visit, I mean, because I want to bear witness to the atrocities. Um, I just don't wanna it's when it feels like touristy that it's hard for me. I think, thank you again, and uh, if you know, keep us updated. I want to hear about all your gen stories. Keep a look at and if you can get a videotape of that door opening and closing in

your office, I have to see it. Oh my god, I totally well, it's terrifying awesome, all right, girl, I love you. Thank you for having me. I love you too, and thank you for coming on. If you want to follow Patrick more because now you love him the way I love him, you can follow him online. You can find him on Twitter and Facebook. His handle on Twitter

is at Patrick Kinds. Both of his shows that I am just completely obsessed with are called true Crime Obsessed and Obsessed with Disappeared hilarious true crime comedies, which I know it sounds like it can't happen, but believe me, they do it. They do it beautifully, tastefully, and it will just leave you rolling. Find them both on your favorite podcast apps, subscribe and don't forget to leave them some love on iTunes. Thanks for listening. We'll be back

soon with more gin stories. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Now, there are as many people in the world with jin stories as there are jin, so if you have one you'd like to share, make sure to email it to me at the Hidden Gin at gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th H E H I D d N d J I n N at gmail dot com. And until next time, remember we are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from

Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted by Robbia Chaudry and produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our theme song was created by Patrick Quartetz. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.