Origin Story

from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss how and why this series came about in a very personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy. All Right, so I'm pretty excited. I think this is the first time I've ever recorded any kind of podcast with my husband. Air Faun, isn't that right? Correct? That correct rates five years and made it finally you've made it. Well,

Welcome to the show Air Fun Disease. Thank you very much. Okay, So for for this episode, what I wanted to do is I want to talk a little bit about how this show came about, and then you and I are going to have a conversation about like what it was like for us growing up with these stories, any experiences we've had Okay, So people who know me know that I'm a lawyer. I have a criminal justice podcast undisclosed. A lot of people know um me, probably just through

cereal and a non story and stuff. But I am a box sunny American Muslim. I fun, are you a box any American Muslim? Canadian? Close enough? Almost made it to the Promised Land? Well, I mean I think it's a step above America. Right, Well, things are different now, things have changed since we got married. But anyway, um so, I what happened was this. I was a big fan of, and I still I'm a big fan of the show Lore by Aaron Manki. And a few years ago I

had the pleasure of meeting Aaron Mankey. I think my daughter, my middle daughter was with me at the time at like a podcast movement conference and she was fan girling. I was fan girling who took pictures with him. I talked to him about it, and I told him, you know, I just love folklore. I love supernatural stuff. It's been stuff I've been like reading about and listening to, like

well reading about since I was a kid. And then I asked him, I said, have you ever considered like for flore To branch out of like European and North American folklore, like there's a whole world of full floor and all kinds of things. Uh And he said no. And he said no because I wouldn't want to like dabble into cultures and try to understand like they're out like they're not mine, like he's you know, and I get that. I think that was really smart. Yeah, it's

respectful of him. So what happened was like a year or two ago, spy and why anyway? I told him, I said, there's this entire world of beings called the Gin. And he's like, I don't know what that is. I said, well, you've heard of the genies, like right, ad um? And I explained to him kind of like the background and how Muslims are obsessed with it. And every time we

get together we swapped Gin stories. But um, so a year or two goes by, I can't remember how long, and suddenly he reaches out and said, hey, I am producing a whole slate of shows um that are like similarly themed to lore for I Heeart Media. Would you like to produce a podcast about the Gin? Your version of inception? Is it? My version of how you sort of planted the seed. Right, I don't remember inception well enough.

I don't. I don't remember it well enough. All right, So I remember when I I was immediately excited and then I told you that about this. What was your first reaction? Well, I was excited too as well. I think it's I mean, it's definitely unique something that I feel there's a thirst four within them with some community, I think exposing it to the broader community that they too would enjoy something like this. Okay, that is not the reaction I remember. I remember you saying, we're gonna

get haunted, We're gonna get possessed. You do not talk with the gin. You do not, You can't. Yeah, it's that's true too. It's like Voldemort. You know, you don't mention the name. It's it's it's it's something that you avoid, especially growing up in these families. I mean, remember this was something. I'm sure you remember it too with your parents too as well. It's like, don't talk about it, um, but it's it's kind of the thing. I had a

bit of a different experience with my family. Well, well here's the Okay, we'll get into that in a second. But I, um, said yes, even I said I will risk the possession because I figured, like, if on my husband he's always like you're always praying and stuff, I'm like, we'll be okay, um, also my prayers and let's do

this um. And the other thing was I had spent like four or five years working really really hard on like wrongful conviction stuff and ring the other book, and was I almost wanted like a creative project that would be less stressful, although it was equally stressful. If now more it was pretty stressful. Yeah, it's been a it's been a long year because I spent this whole year pretty much scripting this and researching this podcast. So all right,

so now let's regress into our childhood. So I grew up in like the DC area mostly, and if I grew up were Toronto, Canada and parts of parts. Actually a few years I lived right outside Montreal in a place called Cornwall. So I want to ask you what is your earliest kind of memory around You said that your parents would say, don't talk with the gin. Yeah, that I mean, so the prompt was don't talk about it.

And furthermore than it was like don't go outside and late at night don't hang around trees, don't urinate on trees if you're if you're a girl, like they would tell my sisters, don't go up with wet hair after dark by trees because there are so many I guess experiences that they heard about um when they were growing up where people were possessed in those in those circumstances. So and additionally, it was mentioning it. Don't mention it because you then sort of attracted. It's like the law

of attraction. You mentioned Jin, and all of a sudden you might be haunted by some so, uh, you know for us as as kids growing up. But did your parents ever say to you, don't do this because we have we have experienced with jin. We know what's like, we've been like, have have any of your elders told you Jin stories they've experienced? No? No, No, I mean, I mean I'm sure you know growing up in the family family, there wasn't much of that type of conversation.

It was just like, don't do this, and I don't ask questions, right, it was like I know better. So we extrapolated from that that maybe they had some experiences, and then I think my mother would sometimes you know, past questions, I mean past comments about Oh I knew this girl growing up and she would go out with her hair open and wet after dark, and she just went bogg love the hair, I guess, so I guess

they love the Muslim hair, Muslim wet hair. The question remains, yes, that how came all these other people who are not Muslim go out at night? Maybe the hair is not wet. Maybe maybe I think I think that the key. I think maybe the the motivaane factor is taking a shower with wet hair or something like that. UM So, if your hair isn't washed, or if it's filthy, then maybe this was filthy. It's filthy. Warning out there with filthy hair you not washed, don't worry. Now, I was kidding.

But I think the urine aspect of it is that you know, and you speak about this in the podcast. UM Gin's are made from fire, right, so dousing them with urine or any water is in a way detrimental for them. And I've heard from other people where if you do do that, there are times gins can be killed because that's the exposure to water. So the family or the relative of that gener will then attack you. Um because of that injuring them. Yeah, so let me ask you, do to what extent do you believe? Okay,

so here's the deal with my family. My parents never talked about We just didn't talk about supernatural still, like it wasn't a thing, right, We didn't talk about There are some families where they really do talk a lot about this. We didn't. It was just like, and my mother never would say, don't go out because they don't go out at night with your hair open because of gin.

She would just say for me and my sister, she would said, don't go out after dark, um without covering your head, and you know, And it was like, what, why what is that about? Because I mean, as a Muslim, I do cover my head now, but I didn't growing up. I didn't start that like Beau, I was thirty years old. That was totally something I did my own. But growing up I didn't do it. My mother didn't do it. But I was like, why is this thing like about just in the dark? Right? Um? I don't remember if

there was much said about trees. So my question is, do you have to what extent do you think it's kind of like just a control mechanism because even even the urinating under the trees. I'm not saying that the full core doesn't exist. It does exist. Like for there are stories that go back hundreds may thousands of years, not just in Muslim tradition and other tradition, to like in Jewish treation and other tradition. Um would let say

that they are these demons and entities that occupy certain trees. Um. But also, hello, you know, urinating in a tree, like in public is just generally kind of gross and disrespectful, so maybe it was one way also, well, I mean I don't know, I mean because if you if you know, I mean you know, um, and in the pins or in the villages, people go out into the to the the the farms or to the open land to urinate. So I'm not sure how. Yeah, but you know, here's

the thing. Though it's not usually open. It'll be like in a field, so nobody can really see you, and it's not under a tree necessarily, so you're it's kind of private in a way even though it's and they have designated areas where they that they got to go somewhere if they don't have a outhouse writing. But well, okay, so let me ask you this, Um, so your parents aside?

What about like you grew up around a lot of family, right, yeah, so, um, that was definitely something we've spoke about, especially when cousins would get together. A lot of cousins we did, um so ghost stories and jin stories and people would you know, hear from somebody else and then it would be passed on. Okay, So was there ever a point like you guys um tried to like summon a gin? You know there was, I mean, we we tried exactly, but we actually went

through out of a Luiji board instead. So we we assumed that it would be summoning spirits or jins or something like that. But um, it was definitely who was it? Who was there? So was my my sister, my older sister, my brother, and then my a few of my cousins we had gotten together. I think I was probably I want to say it was about six for seven. You didn't go run and tell your parents because you know they're freaking out though, because I mean, I mean I

know I didn't of course. I mean there's mom's a word, right, and you don't want to be invited back to the party. So um, you know, of course they didn't mention anything to my parents, but um, yeah, so that was kind of like the first sort of exposure to it. Um, nothing really happened. And I think, you know, wegi boards, there's so much people say that. Sometimes it's so you tried it one time, but you do like turn off

the lights and turn off the lights. We created a makeshift wigi board and oh you don't even get like a real one. Did you just make a paper remember correctly? And then um, I think somewhere along that time we also did. That's why it didn't work, do you think so maybe maybe? Um? And then I think along that time we also had um we were we were into this Bloody Marry. Do you remember Bloody Mary. Oh yeah, yeah, Bloody Mary. Did you ever do it? I want to say I did, but I think I was too scared.

I was so young, and the stories that you know, my cousins were telling me, or my my sister and my brother were saying it just really freaked me out. They did do it, I want to say they did? Yeah, I think, um, I did once. And you know what, it is absolutely an optical effect. Look, you're in the dark, you're spinning around, you flip on the light's real quick, you're gonna see something like your eyes are not quite focused, right.

I remember there being something weird. I didn't do like a bloody looking for a girl standing behind me or anything like that profound, but there was something. And then I ran out of the bathroom and I was like, I'm just not gonna do this again, Like, even if I see her, what am I going to get out of it? What's the point of this? Right? Right? Right? And and and I think it's just the curiosity of you know, children, Just that's really true. I mean, you're here,

So whose idea was it? Like? Who want to do it? Your sisters are like, I think it was my cousin's. Um. So my cousins, UM, I think they might have been a little more more braver, more sort of had more experiences with with these types of stories. So whenever we visit them, they would have, you know, a ray of stories that they would be just telling us. And this was one of the experiences that they wanted to share

with us. I think they may have tried it with their friends, um, and it just seemed like a good exercise to do with the cousins. When we all got together do you remember and like I remember and one of the episodes, I'll talk about it, so I won't talk about it here. But um there was one story, a gen story that if this family friends they told us that stuck with me, Like growing up, do you remember any of like you said, your cousins tell you a lot of stories, was any story that really particularly

stuck with you? Well? Um so, my cousins and Niagara Falls. Uh. They owned a motel. So this was way back in like nineteen eighties or something like that. Um So they would have a lot of experiences um and the supposedly the motel was built upon UM I think um a battlefield, like an old battlefield. It was like the British and

fighting the the first nations. Um so. Uh. They would have these experiences where a specific room light would turn on, um and then they'd go turn it off, and then then that light would turn on again, or they would hear a television and then those are back in the day. It wasn't like the televisions where we had to remote. It was those you know televisions where you'd pulled the nozzle and then change the channel, click click, you have the knob and then you you changed and you clicked

with what was a uh F and VHF. I think back in the day UM so so so somebody would actually have to pull the knob for it to turn on. It's not like and so so they would just be like it would be the locked motel room and they would hear the TV turn on. All of a sudden,

they hear the TV turn on. And there was this UM experience, I think the one story where they mentioned that behind UM the motel they ended up finding like stairs that were leading down into some sort of um I guess a seller and they had seen it before UM. And they mentioned that their father and their uncle ended up going down there. The only thing that they meant, they related back to us was that they saw what it looked like to them was dried blood going down

the stairs, UM two kids. It was probably probably could have could have been like maybe somebody dropped in some soda or something of that nature. Yeah, right. But what they did say is that after their father and uncle went down there, they still all the kids do not go down there. So that just of course created you know that for their curiosity. What what are they telling us not to see down there? Um, so did the

kids go down there? No, they really no, No, I think that would be like, okay, we absolutely have right. It seemed like a good experience with with all your cousins because now you have a pack to go with you. Do they still have motelity, No, it's not. Actually I don't know if the motel is still there, but they saw that. Yeah, it would be nice. You know. There was an experience that I think the first actual experience

was there Niagara Falls. So, um, um, you know their house, the front portion of it was actually an office, the motel office. Um. So we were hanging around in the front portion of that of the house, and what happens is that all of a sudden we see, um, some like a shadow walking up to the door. Um. Now, so we're expecting maybe are you in the office. Yeah, we're in the office. We're just playing with the lights off, just messing around in the office with the lights off.

And then all of a sudden we see the shadow that is approaching the door. So we assume that somebody's gonna come knock on the door, maybe they want to rent a room or something like that. All of a sudden, the shadow comes to the door, and it doesn't knock, it doesn't do anything. So we're like, what the hell is going on? You can see a clear outlot, We can see a clear outline of a person of a person. Um, did you could you? Could you see it? Oh? Did

you hear like the footsteps too? Um? When I think back to it, I think we heard rustling, but not actual footsteps walking up. Um. So now we're we're trying to peer out from the window and you know, they're the sort of stained glasses where you can't really see and we don't see anybody there. But there is this, you know, um, the shadow. So when you're looking out the window you see nobody there, but from inside the room,

what the actual about it? So there we all, you know, I excuse my French, but we all pooped our pants and ran out there as quickly as we could. So you ran to the house, right, Well, we ran out of the office and went to the house. We told you know, so you opened the front door. No, we didn't open the front door. We didn't have the courage to do that. So the shadow to stay there. Nobody opened the door. Nobody opened the door because we assumed that if it was somebody that was willing to rent

a room. They would knock, or they would ring the doorbell or ring the bell to allow allow them to come in, and then when we came back, of course it was gone. So that was what if it was an actual person there, and you I don't even know because that and it could it could very well have been because I think our our view that we were looking at it obstructive, obstructive to stained glass. But I mean, you let your imagination run wild and then you're like, well,

why isn't this person knocking? Maybe they weren't knocking because you're like, what am I hearing? Inside? It's absolutely dark? But I hear a bunch of like why wouldn't freaked out kids? I mean, if you're coming there to rent a room, why would you come to the moment you would knock on the door? I mean, right dark? You said it's dark inside? Absolutely Okay, I'm just started poke holes and well, okay, so that freaked you up. But that might have been a fun experience for the kids,

I'm sure. Yeah. And of course, um we went back and relaid that to their father and he came out, and of course nobody was there at the door, So that just only added to the mystery and the curiosity and of course us being further scared. Yeah. I so I also have my own I think. I guess when you're at that age, you kind of like walk this line of fear and also like, um, you like fascination because you want to, like you want to, you want

to experience it, you want to witness it. So I also have my own stupid whigi board story, which I'm going to talk about later in the podcast. I want to talk about it now. But that was it. But like I never when I was young, I never had any experience like that. Like we were, we had family, friends would tell the stories, but I had not. I had none of my own personal stories. It wasn't until I was an adult that I had some really weird, inexplicable stories that I am Listen, guys, I know this

is going to complete a story. My credibility, I do not care. I am convinced it was like something supernatural, and I'll talk about that, But first I want to know, once you are not a kid anymore and you're grown up, you know, did you then have any personal experiences? Yeah? I mean, well, first and foremost I think even as after that, I think at the age of like eleven and twelve, I was living in boarding school. Remember outside of Montreal, So, um, this was a Muslim boarding school.

So if you remember that, as you mentioned, like listen, kids get together exactly. So there was always this discussion of like, okay, you know, um, they're probably Jim's among us because there was you know, they would always pass this theory along that um they too come to study. So one of the things would always be told is like,

look at shoes. So if somebody comes in, because you place your shoes on on the rack or at least right in front of the entrance of the mosque, if somebody would shoes would be turned around the other way that person was it gin because they would say, I don't know if it's true or not, but they would say, the feet of the gin are backwards, um, compared to us.

So even when they put them on the shoe rack, which they do because that's the appropriate thing to do, they would take off their shoes and put them on the shoe right well, they would leave them on like if so, yeah, if you saw shoes on the floor and they're pointing the opposite direction then to the entrance. Then you knew that that person was a gin. And of course the other things were like some kids would

be like, oh, you know, um, because gyms are shape shifters. UM. So uh, there was just stories that would always be circulated that UM time, there was a student that was a gin and he was sitting there and reciting or reading his text, and um, one of the principal walked by and he noticed that the light was on and he looked in and there was a snake or serpent sitting there reading his text, you know, rocking back and forth.

So he knocked on the door. And then you know, the student who was a gym transferring back to his human form. And then you know that this is the story that kids told each other. Yeah this is a story, but nobody actually knew that kid. Nobody actually knew that kid. I don't know if it was true. I don't even if it wasn't. The school it was just you know, one of those things that were circulated. But as far as my own experiences go, I actually have had two

specific experiences. I've told you about these, but I'll share it with um. You know, the podcast listeners to as well. We'll be right back after the short break. I think I was. I want to say it was seventeen years old. Um here I was being in the outskirts of Toronto and a in a town called Ajax, and there too, of course, UM you know, I lived with a bunch of Muslims. So um you know that expects other students, right, exactly other students. Um. So one time, I think it

was after pre dawn, um, pre dawn prayers. I'd come back to my to my room and I, um, you know, laid down, went to sleep, um, and I was awoken maybe about an hour later. All of a sudden, I felt like this pressure on my chest and it was an immense amount of pressure. All of a sudden, it just felt like my chest was constricting, and my breathing became ever more challenging. And then slowly that the progressed to like it being felt like I was being choked.

Now here. I was, Yeah, I'm my eyes are awake, I'm I can't, I can't. I'm trying to yell. I can't yell. I'm trying to move my body. I can't move my body at all, and the pressure is just increasing and increasing. Thankfully, I was, I was, you know, sure, you know too as well. We're taught little um prayers to recite Um for protection. So I began to try to recite. I told Coursie, it's it's Um a verse in inside the Koraan, which is recited for protection. And

I'm trying and I'm struggling. I get to a few like in your head you're trying to say, I'm trying to yell it. I'm trying to yell it and I can't. And what the other people in the room when there's nobody, No, this was just my own in my own dorm um. So here I am. I'm trying to move, wiggle me my way out of this um, trying to just scream for help, and nothing's not My body is not moving, my mouth is not making or I'm not able to

make a sound. But I still try to recite this verse and you know, slowly, slowly I'm trying to And as I continue to recite it, the pressure is increasing, which is trying to prevent me to recite it. But I work my way through it. Could you see anything is happening? No, it was it dark in the room. No, it was actually because it's after I mean after that morning morning sunrise. It was daylight. It wasn't it wasn't

dark in the room at all. But I finally am able to with a great amount of struggle, I'm able to recite um the whole prayer. And just as I finished reciting, I see like this disbursement of light, like a burst of light, like a burst of light, and then my the the it feels like my neck is released, the body, the weight is lifted off my shoulder, and the the the entity I feel which it was, is no longer present in the room. Um. So that was

my first experience that. Could you tell anybody? Yeah? Right away? I told that my close friend and he mentioned that somebody else had told him that that happened to him too as well. And pre you scared? I I was a I was. I was a little taken back, but I wasn't. I wasn't freaked out. I was just like, what the heck is this? And one of my friends, I'm the friend that I told me. I told he was like, oh, maybe it might have been a female jin who likes you. Man, So um, next time, that's

so exciting for a teenage boy. I can't get me a real girl, I can get a gin noo. Yeah. Um, so I think the biggest thing when you're like, well bring it out on, can we get a second date? Um? But no, I think I was. I mean, I wasn't really frightened, but it was definitely alarmed. Um. And so from that moment not I would just always make sure that I was reciting my prayer, prayers for protection before I went to sleep and when I woke up and stuff like that. But then I had, UM, you know,

the same incident that happened a second time. I think I want to say about it a year or change later. What happens is now I'm sleeping. This is that Um, this is around four o'clock at night. I'm sleeping in the same house, in a in a different dorm room. Um, and the same thing happens to me again. And all of a sudden, UM, my chest is constricted. There's a heavy it feels like a heavyweight on my chest. My throat is being choked, it feels that way. Um, I

can't scream. And there was somebody I think, sleeping in the next bed, but I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't I couldn't make a sound, um, you know, to try to call for help. I couldn't move my body as much as I tried to with a lot of the hold. It just seemed like, um, I had no power over it. So then again, I do you feel like in that moment, because I've read about this, and you know, people know this is sleep paralysis, right, it's a very common, very common.

It's actually quite a common experience. But people to report that they literally in those moments feel like they're going to die. Yeah, and I felt that way. And that's the thing, like, see, I think where what's some of these things can't be explained in from a scientific perspective? And I'm doing quotes air quotes, yeah, because science needs to be an air quotes. No, please do not put science and air quotes. Put science and air quotes. But

I'm saying in this home, yes we do. When it relates to gin and supernaturals, I feel there are science can explain everything right exactly for for I mean at least now I means science always is progressing and involving. But um, I feel as it relates to gin, um, maybe there might be a gap at this point in time. So I know some people say, oh, well, yeah, I've had that in c paralysis, but um, maybe that's science way of explaining such a supernatural experience at this point

in time. Yeah, it could be. Okay, So you were so in the second instance, again, what happened? Did you do the same thing where you try to recite the prayer and yeah, so there again, I you know, struggled, I mean exerted as much effort as I could to recite that, um, the prayer for protection and as the same way, just as I completed the last you know word, all of a sudden, I saw burst to light and

the weight was lifted off my my chest. Was this also with the sun out like it was the daytime this time it was at night and in the night you saw a burst of light. It's like a flash of light. Are you positive you're awake in both these experiences? I'm positive because I can. I mean I got up right after it, sat up. Yeah, I sat up, and then I was like, what the hell is going on? I was freaked out. So I mean I got up, and you know, I just started reciting, you know, started

reciting a litany of prayers just for protection. But yeah, it was. I mean my eyes were wide open um in both both circumstances, so my eyes weren't closed at all. Um, nor was I imagine I think there was something like in that in that place, like in dorm. I think it's fair to say. I mean, I would hear from so many people and and was your system free of any psychedelic substances? Yeah? No, I was taking shrooms and I was kidding. No, of course, I was seventeen years old,

sixteen years old, I was. I was free from any intoxication or any psychedelic I guess substances. Um. Yeah, I mean in both circumstances. And the reason why it's sort of um, I felt that way because I then passed, I mean my friend reaffirming that had happened to somebody else. And then later on in life. Um. You know, many people have told me that they've had that same type of experience too as well. Lady Jinn, trying to get

with everybody. You know, it's interesting, Um, I many of the in fact, many of the accounts I've heard of read happened. It seems to happen more with men. It actually does seem to have more with men than women, and I wonder what that's about. Um, so was that it that those two times, those that happened, those were the two times that had actually happened to me where

I feel they were supernatural Jane experiences. And you after I think I remember telling you this in the past, and you're like, well, you know, it could be c paralysis. I was like, no, it's really well, Jane can causely paralysis, right, I mean like, I'm not saying that they can't, but right, well, okay, so that's interesting. So you were like seventeen or eighteen the last time you had one of these experiences, but the rest of your adult life even and you're like,

how do you know forty forty one? Yeah, I think I'm turning forty one. Yeah, you'll be turning forty one this year. So in all these years you haven't had another experience. Why do you think that is? I think I met you and you you've sort of warned them off. I don't know what that means. I don't know if that's good. But so I'll tell you about my experiences. I'll tell the listeners about my experiences. And I've told you about this again. I didn't grow up in a house.

I mean even now when I've asked my dad as I was producing this podcast, I was like, Woul do you have any gin stories. He's like no. I was like, you were born before the creation of Pakistan. I mean, like, you know, you were raised in on grounds that probably like ancient, ancient grounds you've never had. I was like, I was like, what about your family, your father? He's like no. I was like why not? He was like, don't you believe jenn exists? He's like, yeah, they of

course we're supposed to believe it. Um but he's like, you know, I guess I don't really think about that stuff. You know, maybe if you are more receptive and open and thinking about it, then you're going to have more experiences. I guess maybe. But um so, I again, I didn't have that, and I always it's not that I didn't believe it. I did believe it. I've always believed in things that I cannot see. Obviously, we are people of faith,

so we believe in God. We cannot see God, we can't see angels, we can't see other things that we still are part of our creed right. Um Now, some people obviously will say, well, some things are literal and some are figurative. But anyhow, the point is we've been taught that to the general this is not figurative. It was really But so the first time I had an experience. So here's what happened. I went to I visited mankasan Um. This happened about about twenty years ago. No, about seventeen

years ago. I visited bak Son and I visited like this area up in the hills called Muddy There's a lot of antique shops up there, and I bought this. It looked like a silver kind of engraved picture, and it was a picture of like a man playing a flute and a woman. It's some kind of romantic scene. It's supposed to illustrate something like a roomy poem or something. I don't remember the history behind. It's beautiful engraving. And I brought it back and man, this is a time

at which I had recently become a single parent. I was I had gotten divorced, moved into a condo your friends my friends condor that I was renting from her. It was the first time I was kind of actually living on my own um since like for many years. And so what happened was I. She had a kitchen counter, a counter, you know, one of those counters. I faced out of the kitchen SEQ put stools on the other side.

So I had propped this engraving up, which is it was maybe like an nine by twelve I don't know, something like that, not huge up against um, like on one end of the counter, up against the wall or one side of it. And every so often it would just keep it would just like slam down, right. I was like, okay, well, maybe it's like a it's like a granite countertop. Maybe it's slippery. So I would like put things in front of it, like candles and things to hold it up, and it would still go boom,

and it was slammed down over and over again. It wouldn't slip, it would actually fall. It would just fall on his face. It would just fall on his face, like over and over. Even it was leaning backwards. Yeah, So I was like, well, that's weird now, but that wasn't so, I mean, that didn't freak me out so much because I'm like, I don't know, maybe something's happening here. Um. At the same time, I had bought from some shop, you know the Rodan's the Thinker, that really famous statue

of a and I had this. I had a little replicuff the Thinker. It was all it was made of black marble or black something. And my mom was like, get that little thing out of this, like that looks like it's like some kind of a little demon idol. I get it out of your I was like, it's like a claw sickle, what else sculpture. She was convinced that thing was gonna hot me. But so anyhow, nothing happens. And then um, I had a cousin who came from Bakastan.

She was like sixteen years old, and um, she started she was living with me while her parents were like trying to find a place and stuff and trying to get on their feet. She lived with me maybe like four or five months. So it was me, her and then my daughter, who was like I think four or five, maybe six at the time, I can't remember. Um what happened was one night I made meatballs for dinner. I

remember this, made meatballs for dinner. We're having meatballs, and suddenly my cousin bites into a meat ball and an entire human tooth that's insane comes out. Of the meat ball. Now, look, I had this meat ball. It wasn't like I just took the meat I cat from the store shaped it into balls like I mixed it. It was not her tooth. It was nobody's tooth. Um. I had mixed the meat. I had added spices to it and onion to it. You know how we make our bokasani meatballs, right, it

had So I'm like, how did that even get past me? First, all while I was making it. But also we're in the heck and it was like a human too it so again, now this could be the butcher's too, I don't know, or a cow. It wasn't that big. It was an actual human tool. So that was really weird. But here's the part where I was like, I am definitely like, something's definitely happening. What happened one morning was every morning my daughter, I would drop off my daughter,

yes she was like six. Every morning I drop off my daughter and my cousin. They had enrolled her at the same school as my daughter dropped him off at school, I come back, I get ready, and then I'd drive into d C. I lived in Virginia. I drive into DC for work because that would give me a little more time, and they had to be at school earlier. So one morning, I'm sitting on the sofa and this was back in the day when people used calling cards to make international phone calls. I had a calling card.

I was trying to call my uncle in Bukasan, and so it's like six thirty or seven am, and I'm trying to make it because it's like, that's the timing is right, and you got a time the calls right, yeah, ten twelve hour different. And I'm like, well, I can't get through, and I'm called link to the girls. I'm sitting on the sofa that's right by the front door. I'm like, all right, girls, you know what, let's go. We don't have time. And I put the calling card on the phone down on the sofa and I thought,

I'll come back and I will make the call. And we left, and in front of me, my daughter left, my cousin left. I walked out behind them, I locked the door, I went and I dropped him off. I was back home in about ten minutes. And when I walked in the door, I just I will never I opened the door with my right hand. I stepped inside the sofas to my left. I looked down to the sofa and that calling card had been shredded into tiny little bits. Now, first of all, calling cards have like

this little coating on them. Yeah, it is hard, and I'm telling you, human hands could not have shredded that thing. It wasn't tiny little like it wasn't like ripped in like four pieces. It was like a little pile of shredded calling card next to the phone. And I was like, what the hell just happened. I was gone for ten minutes, and then I just kind of started putting the pieces together. I'm like, that thing keeps falling and this is happening in human too. Then, um, so my mom, I said.

I was like, then I was convinced. I told the story to um one of my friends and my co host from Undisclosed and Susan Simpson, and she's like, Robbie, I'm more terrified by the fact that somebody broke into your house while you're go and they were probably hiding in the closet. I'm like, if somebody broken into my house, why would they do that? Of all things, why would it be like this is what I'm gonna do? Are they running around with a shredder, like what's going on here?

Like human hands couldn't do it. So I was then convinced that something's happening now. I told my mom and my mom was like, oh, yeah, definitely, it's that little black thinker guy. You have a little black Yeah. So she's like, this is what you do. She's like, you tell that you have to assert yourself and you have to tell that jin that that is your home and that you believe in God and you cannot be scared

out of there. And I did it. I stood up there a couple of times on different nights and I said, my name is Roberta. I'm a Muslim. I am not scared of you. This is my home. I command you to get out, leave me alone. Sounds like what's that movie Princess Pride. He's like where he's like, my name is um. I forget what he says, and he says prepared to die. I don't even know then, I don't.

I really don't. Well, I don't know if it worked or not, because the truth is I only had a six month lease, and I like, I think that's a name or something like that. I had a six month lease and I left, and so I don't know what happened, But honestly, I know these were not frightening experiences. But for the most part, when people talk about like the experiences that are inexplicable, it's usually, um, it's not stuff that's over terrifying. It's not like these If these beings

are messing with you, they're not trying to terrify. It's almost like the kind of showing you when we're here, right. And you know, it's interesting that you mentioned that. It reminds me of a story of my friends. Uh. They moved from Toronto and went to good Draft in India. UM, and they did a reverse immigration. Well yeah, I think they spent a few years. They're just trying to culture their kids, um and the and or at least expose your kids to the Indian culture. UM. So what happened

is that they wanted to find a house. I was close to the school that their kids are going to be attending, and they found that there was one house that was empty and nobody would rent it. And so they were like, well why why you know, they asked around and people like, oh, no, that's the house with Jin's in it. That's why nobody rents it. So the father, I mean, he was a jeef. And when I knew him, he was like, all right, well whatever, He's like, he's close.

He's like, this is prime real estate, so I'm gonna get I'm gonna take this house. So um. What happens is that he goes into the house and he grabs a big staff and he walks into the house and he says, my name is and I'm not going to say the name. My name is. I hear x x y Z, and I'm a I'm a I'm a believer in God, and I'm a follower of the problems. And this will be the place that I live. You shall not touch my family or bother them, and if you do, I will beat you the hell out of this house.

And um, they say that this family any side one year, Lisa got a multi year because it was a good deal. Um. But what happened was that his sons would tell me, it's like, you know, they would hear running on sort of the attic um, and every so often they would see like, um, maybe a baby gin or something like that. Um um. But they never never, never had any any problems with it. So that to live together, um, and we're able to sort of settle their differences and live

in the same place. It was that stuff. Yeah, I guess so. I mean, but I think that's kind of like how your mother said, right, well, look um in the time that I because I was also a little bit worried about the fact that I'm like, am I like literally summoning the gin by or I have all these gin books. I've got a whole stack of gin books now in our bedroom, all places I'm reading about this. I've got like and then you had that what was that little book about how to summon Effreet and all

these other demons? Yes, I do, I have a summing. I have all kinds of something burn that we can't burn it right, not yet. Um, I still need it. But the thing is like, so far, I feel like we're okay, nothing's happened. He's looking our God willing. Let's let's hope it stays that way. We'll continue to recite our prayers in the litany of I'll let you recite them and blow on me and everything. And I'm okay.

I feel like I'm one of those people who would, like, you know, I remember when I was younger, I wanted to be hypnotized, and I couldn't. I feel like I'm too much of a like a cynic. I'm not like I don't know, my veils not thin enough, like they just won't come to me. Yeah maybe maybe maybe, but I don't think you want to sort of tempt them in that fashion as well, where you're like, I don't think they'll come to me. Now I've said it out loud. Well,

if they do, I will definitely podcast about it. Yeah. Well, hey, great, great way to share that story, I guess. All right, Okay, well that's it. I think for our first episode, I have a really great interview with UM Professor Ali Alumi, who is like he knows everything about GIN inside now. He is like a scholar and expert. It's a fantastic conversation, so definitely to it in for that and UM of course,

check out the rest of the series. Stay safe, don't pee under a tree, dry your hair for you go out, cover your hair. All right, guys, thanks, thanks for fun. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Now, there are as many people in the world with Jin stories as there are GIN, so if you have one you'd like to share, make sure to email it to me at the Hidden Gin at gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th H E H I D D E N d J I n n at gmail dot com.

And until next time, remember we are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted by Robbiah Chaudrey and produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our theme song was created by Patrick Quartets. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.