Ariyanto And The Djinn

from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, and gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss how and why this series came about in a very personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy this week. I am excited to bring to you an interview with not just one, but two people, a father and daughter team that I discovered when I came upon

a podcast called Archipela Ghosts. First of all, it's such a clever name, and the reason I discovered it was because they actually were listening to The Hidden Gin and they tweeted at us, and I was enthralled, and so I took a listen, and believe it or not, they talked about Jin the very first episode. One of the hosts in that episode was interviewing her own father, Ariento, an amazing man who had an entire lifetime of experience

with gin. Now, both Anissa and of course her father Ayento, are from Indonesia and so their experience with this entity is culturally different than mine. But I was fascinated and hoped and I said, listen, I would love to talk to you guys more. I want to learn more from Arienta. So let me tell you a little bit about Anissa

and Ariento. Anissa grew up in Australia and Indonesia. She studied arts at the University in Sydney, and she worked in various positions actually in the film industry for about fifteen years, including doing exhibition and distribution. Last year she moved the United States. She lives near Philly right now. She loves all things spooky, is an avid reader of historical fiction, and of course now the co host of Archipela Ghosts, a very cool podcast. Now. Her father, Aranto,

is sixty seven years old. He was born in East Java and Indonesia. He had moved to Australia after marrying an Australian woman, where they lived for many years. And he comes from a really large family, eight or nine siblings. Now he studied civil engineering, but then when he came back to Indonesia from Australia, he actually started his own advertising agency. He also plays music's very Fond Jazz and

is an art director by skill. Now, it would seem that none of these things kind of line up with what you're about to hear in terms of his experience and abilities with the supernatural, but prepare to be amazed. Um. First of all, I want our listeners to know it's like ten pm at night. Anissa and I are on the East Coast in the United States, but Arianta is all the way across the globe in where are you

right now? And Jakarta, Jakarta and Indonesia. Thank you so much, Thank you so much for organ for Agreen to come on. It's a weekend, so it's early in the morning for you.

It's great. UM. So I told our listeners a little bit about you guys before we jumped on the call and UM, but I first want to actually start off by Anissa, how I kind of discovered you and your show, and I want you to tell us a little bit about um with you, a little bit of your personal background and then how you came to do this podcast. About like Indonesian ghosts basically. Okay, So, um, I've had this podcast called a Cappella Guys, and it's still very

very new. It's only like, I think, two episodes out now. But it came about from one day I was speaking

with my husband and my brother. I asked him he had this story which is in his episode, about when he sort of had an encounter possibly with the supernatural being um A Gin possibly, and UM I sort of thought to myself, this, this is like really fun, and I think a lot of people don't know about this kind of stuff from Indonesia, um, the crazy different beings and mystical things that that are that are around, and Indonesia itself as a country I think is not maybe

quite as known around the world as well. So Um, I come from a film industry background. Most of my working life has been in the film industry, so I've always been really attracted to and interested in just telling stories in general, and um experiencing different kinds of um like because I really love documentaries, different kinds of people's

backgrounds and all that kind of stuff. So I thought be really like, I obviously can't make going to into Indonesia at the moment because we're all on sort of not lockdown really, but we're not allowed to leave the country. But that would have been great. But so I thought instead of making like a little documentary series, I could do a podcast instead. Um, and so is this your first podcast? The first time podcasting? Um? A few years ago. I did have one that didn't last very long. It

was with a friend of mine from Australia. Was a horror film podcast, so we'd watch horror seasons. Like a trend here. It's a little bit of a trend, kind of like a little ghostie kind of trend. So yeah, well let me ask you so and so, you clearly have kind of a creative streak and you'd like to tell stories. What about you do have a bit of a creative background as as your father? Is she getting this from you? Well? I usually I'm basically right right

hand brain for somewhere. I always been a in secreative person since I was you know, as long as I remember, you know, But I don't know. Somehow I ended up started the civil engineering and only to find out that, you know, it doesn't really suit me. So I went to Australia basically just for your adventuring and ended up studies in advertising and design. So you're from civil engineering to advertise it, so that means like a creative field. Really,

that's right. Yeah, so since then I are working at you in an advertising industry. Um, after sixteen years in Australia, as I decided to come back to Indonesia because at the time, you know, advertising was were really booming here. So I came to Indonesia and it started my uh own agency and yeah, so basically I'm a creative person myself. Yeah.

And you played jazz, yes, I played yes, right, So so yeah, but I don't hear in any of your backgrounds like this theme that connects to like the supernatural or the paranormal or any of that. Is that just something like it is something like you kind of grew up with a nissa. Are these like stories you told your daughter? Areent? Like? How? Why? Why is this family interested in this? Did you sit around the dinner table

and talk about this? Actually it's not. It's quite right, you know, because we've been growing up with this kind of you know, we don't we don't really call it supernatural, which as a young young kid, we know we know what there is uh, what you call that a ghost? So basically we grow grow up with this kind of thinking.

Uh not until we not until we've grown grown up and learns about a little bit about religions and understood that this entity called gene right, So uh in Indonesia, this kind of thing is just like maybe similar in other Muslim country. It's just like part of daily daily things. You know, we talked about our experience. Oh you know last night, this is what happened, and what happened. Oh yeah, and you have differences and yeah, I said the same thing.

So it just becomes like a daily things, you know, just like part of a you know, like everyday life, part of everyday, everyday life exactly. Know, so we do we never really sort of surprise, but what's happening with other people because oh yeah, yeah, I sum it is the same thing and it's sort of things you know. So so that's interesting. You know. Um, in my family, you know I come from a Muslim family, they are how do I say this? My family was not like

super um spiritual. We never talked about I wanted to as a kid, we never did. And I would just like crave it from other families, you know, like in other families that are more like kind of sufie and more mystical families, more they practice the religion and more aceteche of fashion. But it sounds like like this was so much part of the kind of the culture, the in an age of culture that wasn't considered something that people would look at and think, well, that's kind of weird. Um,

like this is this kind of an accepted reality. Is that what it was like for you growing up on Issa? Yeah, I think that's pretty spot on actually, because it is so this is something I think I talk about a lot when in the podcast, but also when I explained to people is it is so much a part of everyday life that it's not odd and it's not something we think of mentioning. Oh, by the way, there are these there are a lot of these supernatural stories or

mystical beings around. It's just you know, people have jobs, people go to school, and this kind of stuff is part of everyday life. So it's not really always something that you think to mention or to single out specifically. In a sense, it's just part of the the blanket of life in Indonesia. I guess now the interesting thing to me, And I think I heard you speak about this a bit in the episode I heard um with Orianda on it is that this is not it's not

really limited to like Indonesian Muslims. I mean, Indonesia is a diverse country with there are other religious populations there, and so is this more cultural that it is religious? Would you? Would you guys say yeah, definitely, yeah, because um Dad might know more about this sort of than I do, especially has lived there longer. But Um, the history of Indonesia was there was like the animism, dynamism, um beliefs before any religions came, and that already it

was quite spiritual. But then Hinduism came, Buddhism came, then Islam came, but there was always that belief in a super spiritual and a supernatural before any religion. So I think that's why all Indonesians, regardless of their beliefs. Do you believe in some form of this kind of stuff?

I mean that kind of that's pretty yeah. Okay, can you expand on that a bit because what's interesting to me about Okay again, my family from Bakas is a majority of Muslim Sunni Muslim country, very very tiny populations of Hindus and Christians and Seeks very tiny populations. And there is absolutely i would say, other than some cultural practices like that the food you eat or the way you dress, there's like zero, i would say, almost zero

overlap with a lot of the spiritual beliefs. So can you add, can you talk to me a little bit about how that how that exists Indonesia because these are very different religious traditions Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, They're very very different religions. Yeah. Well, bas basically because um, when Islam came to Indonesia, Uh, they they you know, they they found a little bit of what you call that rejection because of the cultures at the time, basically Hinduism and

Buddhism and Buddhism. So they found a way how to to make the people accept Islam by a little bit combining between both. Oh okay, there was some compromise there that they said exactly, there's some compromised For example, like Hinduism they do all of a ritual of offering and sort of stuff, while and Muslim we don't have that sort of thing. So how they do it and they just allowed to do the thing but just change slightly with the intention of for God instead of for you know,

the Kindu is God sort of thing. So that sort so this sort of compromise uh that that to you know, to to be lieve just to get the islams uh accepted by the people at that time. And this goes in the you know, for a long says and until finally people are really understood about Islam and accepted as you know, Islam itself without being what you got influenced

by other beliefs sort of thing. Though still people who are practicing this, you know, there's a jewal beliefs sort of thing Indonesia they called a Muslim, but then they're still practicing a little bit about Hinduism or Buddhism. They hold on to like some of the the old ways hard that's exactly, yeah, exactly that You should tell Robbie

about Jan. Yeah, who was Jan or what for exam? Yeah, for example, Jaw sort of like a spiritual belief you know, basically they are Muslim, but they're practicing some of the Hindu's rituals, you know, being being ja Java before Islam came to Indonesia. Basically are were Hindu's kingdoms, so they pretty pretty strong tradition on Hindu's ritual. So when Islam came, there were about nine and nine person we call it nine Suffies who came to Java and try to spread Islam.

And they use lots of different way to attract people to Muslim And for example, in Java they even included Gamalan. Gamalan is a musical Javanese musical, uh, you know, like an but based on the Hindu's tradition something. So so they're kind of like mix it so you will find a little bit of Islamic for example, reciting with that kind of tone of intuison. Uh, you know, that's interesting,

a toy of voice sort of thing. So yeah, the Sufis have always been the most flexible even pretty flexible in this in the subcontinent until yeah, I get that that's really interesting. Yes, So so that's u uh even even and that goes from generation into generations, you know, as a Javanese especially like I came from Madura, so we really don't have that sort of thing, you know, because it's sort of likely completely different different islands from Java,

even though it's pretty close. So h even the Saltan in Java. In Java we called it are still practicing this sort of you know, you know, what would you call it views in using concept of belief. You know, though they call themselves as somethms a Muslim uh craton or or what if the kingdom or whatever it is you may call it, but it's always be uh some

sort of Hindus influence included me in their daily activities. Okay, so I want to circle back to that influence, but first before we specifically especially on like the belief in supernatural and gin I mean most specifically, since that's what this podcast is about, but actually want to pivot to you for a little bit. And he said, don't want to ask you this. So somebody who kind of grew up in a family and a culture that was like, yeah,

this is just a thing. It's like, oh okay, yeah, I think I saw somebody in my room last night, or maybe I saw a vision. Like it's just a part of your reality, that's not You don't have to question your sanity, you don't have to question whether it's real or not. But you you didn't grow up in Indonesia the entire time, right, you were also raised in Australia. Correct, Yeah, that's right. So how did did that change for you? Then? Like then growing up in suddenly a culture that was

like wait, what are you talking about? I mean, did you start to question your own kind of belief system? So I grew up in Australia until I was um, I think what was seven eight? Now I was eight when we moved, So I didn't really have too much of a concept of things around me. I guess, um, what what's the difference between Australia and Indonesia? Was just

a different location where I was living. Um, So most of my growing up of like being actually aware of my surroundings and learning things, I think was mostly in Indonesia because that was from around eight to eighteen UM. And then moved to Australia for university. So that's that's

when I realized the difference. How in Indonesia was very common every every day to sort of talk about gin and like how, um, there's this concept of pennunga, which is um sort of we kind of have quite a quite a lot of words that all are kind of interchangeable. For basically, what is gin or a spiritual being? Um? But the panungu is more of the idea of of

being that inhabits a place. So for example, like in our house, Um, in my parents house, rather, there's apparent only these jin who live there, and they've sort of what is it, dad, there's like one in every room or something where they and they've they've helped us in the past, like this was in sort of our episode zero, like they apparently helped us when our house got robbed in all this kind of stuff. Oh my god, Okay,

we don't listeners have to hear this story. You're saying, that's a matter of factly, how long have you been in that house with this jin? By the way, are years? So is that the house you grew up in? That Anita half of it? Yeah, we most of the time that I was there was in that house. Yet and when you were there, you were aware that they were just there. I didn't like because I'm not sensitive towards

that kind of stuff. So I've never I've never actually really seen anything or there's like the one story that I have that is, um, possibly when I experienced something,

but I've never actually seen or heard or anything like that. Um, So to me, it's still something that's fairly in visible, that's fairly Um, theoretical in a sense because I've never really had that experience that a lot of people had, like Dad has had, that just makes you go, really, yet a hundred there there are these things, and I've

experienced a connection with them. I haven't had that, So to me, there's still just something that's like, oh, yeah, they're they're supposed to be around, but I've never experienced it, so it's not an issue for me, not a problem. I do believe that. I mean, there are people who have just either heightened sensibility or sensitivity or or some kind of opening that others don't. And I'm like you and he so I'm I'm kind of like I'm waiting

to or see it, but it's not happening. But you know, my husband warns me and says, don't don't tempt them, but don't tempt fate. Um, how did you How did you discover that there are were gin in every room of that house? Were they just like part of your you know, either a different generators. So they're the gin that kind of inhabited space and attached themselves to a place, and then they're genter that attached themselves to people and will follow them around like from place to place, house

to house. Can you tell us a little bit about this gender and how you discover the exist? Well, First, first of all, there there um as an Indonesian. We all believe that, uh, they are everywhere, the jeans everywhere, even in our own house. We just sort of like a given, you know, we leave side by side with them. Uh. So that make it easier for us to just believe, Okay, there's a gin in this room, or the gene in the other room, or the gens in the garden, that

sort of thing. But not until when I really actually, um, I don't know. Maybe you can call it opening up my channel towards something that's more sensitive. Then I can sort of detect their being. You know though I actually that's happened, so it's not my intention. But it's more like because once I joined this uh this what you

call it. It's not the martial art. It's more like a healthy uh what you call a crop some sort to develop your inner power for the purpose of you know, being more healthy and you know, can do things more

that sort of stuff. Is it like a meditative type of thing or the mind It's it's sort of a combination meditation and and breathing exercise and and you know it's a Muslim also execute too, so it open It opened up the channel unintentionally maybe because I have that kind of a natures for that, but not everyone you know can that have that similar thing. But in my case, it opened my channels towards some you know, a different

dimension that all this time I knew. Uh so when I had that Indian nation call it ILM is just like knowledge knowledge, but this is more like spiritual knowledge sort of thing. Uh, I didn't know what happened at that time? How come you know, all of a sudden I become very sensitive? H So can I ask you when was your When? When did you first realize something had changed? What was it? What event? Was it? One of one of the like if you sort of upgrading, you know when I DoD when I did this? Uh?

What you call that uh inner powers exercise is to be able to detect some sort of differences of energy. You know. Uh for example, uh, you sort of blindfolded and then you you detected different colors has a different of uh you know, energy that you can really feel it with your hand, you know, So for example, black is this kind of string of powers. The red is this kind of you know, strange or yellow and so on.

So in the end you can really read. So you can have with your with your eyes cloaked, without seeing

the color. You can touch the color and tell what color it is from the energy it's emanating that that's right, just right, just like you have you have a big alphabet for example, and that's just like a sort of scann it over it, and you can tell the difference between white and black and white and black, and you, uh, in the end you can sort of figure out what what what aphabet is is, you know, because it's just like a scanning. Okay, so so how kind of how

long did they take it? A master this sleight away? I mean, this must have taken years. It feels like, yeah, I actually two or three years something, you know, So so that kind of thing, and and uh, actually it's pretty simple based on the uh, the positive and negative energy because they don't mix sort of things. So based on that concept you can really tell, you know, if it's a positive or it's a negative energy sort of thing.

So so let's say it started like that. So when I, you know, sometimes I went somewhere and all of a sudden, my whole body is just like being electrocuted, just like you know, they're kind of feeling like it's just a different sort of thing. So so I think, what's this, you know how kind of all of a sudden it became sort of like uh, you know, uh, you know in terms, yeah, sort of saying. So, not until I met this man who actually we call it men with

lots of knowledge. He can uh detect that I have that kind of power, but I didn't realize at that time that I have it. So he said, look, if you want to, I can really help you and really opening up, you know, so you know exactly what's happening, you know, with yourself. So I so I said, okay, it's gonna affect me, and said no, no, no, I just want you will give you some sort of additional you know, additional knowledge of something. Okay, it's fine, I

can live with it. So he did something, Okay, you just do you just accepting what ever happened to yourself. Don't try, don't try to fight against that. So he did something. I didn't know what he did, you know, because he sort of stood behind me. So I can really you know, I can just just let my body sort of a feeling following whatever it is that's just

coming to me. And in the end in sense, he said, okay, now I'm finished certain that you do have this uh ability to you know, to to what you called to feel a different dimension. So if you want to, I can I can really give you this knowledge to you so you can sort of really make maximize utilize said and you said yes to that. But again again, I I kind of a person who always cure is about

new thing, so including this thing you know. Okay, so yeah, sure I would like to have the of So you need to make it short sort of like what give it to me? I don't know what sort of ritual he did. Anyway, he give it to me, and he also give it the instruction. This is how you sort of switch it down and off your new knowledge sort of you can switch it on and off. Yeah, that's interesting.

Is that? So like if you go somewhere where there might be a lot of energy or entity, it's like you just don't want to be disturbed, you switch it off. That's right. Yeah, So that's so he said. It is it is very important how to do it. So whatever is energy. For example, if you encounter with negative energy, they don't overpower you, you know, so you just switch it off instead of just let the whole thing, you know, overpower you, and you know how to deal with uh.

So that's that, that's what happened. And he and the positive part not the positive you know, maybe the good thing that I can also help people, you know, with that knowledge helping in terms of for example, I can detect you know, sort of Okay, you have this sort

of a problem in your body. I can help you to fix it, or maybe I can Is this I'm going to ask you something and this is gonna be kind of personal, But is this because you have developed the ability on your own or is this because you're like using the assistance of a gin to help you do it? Using the six the existence of gene the assistance like like gen helping you, that Jean's helping me. So that's that's what it is? What so wait wait wait you know you do have gen helping you? Yes,

oh my god? Really is oh my gosh? Okay, because because you know, basically sort of live in one dimension and as a human human being, you don't have like a jewel dimension. But you can't go. It's across the dimension by help, by knowledge, vice versa. Like a gene can come to our dimension if the gene has knowledge to do it. If not, only just live it in

you know, the real sort of thing. So yes, uh, And he said, you have a whole lot of questions now for your father, since you're just about I'm about to take over Robbie, and just asking in person, please Alfrey jumping because I don't have so many okay, yeah so so yes, so actually as a Muslim, I don't have any uh any what what you call uh disagreeing with this concept because you know, even even in the in the Koran and the king Solomons have lots of

army of gens helped him build build his kingdom. So so so this this man, how I can call it my mentor whatever, this is the same thing. You know, you can ask him to do things as King Solomon asked the Jeans to do. Help him too, well, you need to build his kingdom. So as long as you know how to to to communicate with them and and you know, uh and looking after your respect over them and vice versa, so you can sort of work to me.

Just wow, if I have a lot of questions about how you actually work with them, it's only ask you this, how are you when you recognize that your father has something going on? UM? I think actually when he first told me the story of UM, some of the things that he could do from this UM, this new cause that the meditation group that in the energy training that he did, because what's it called? Is there a name

for this? Plung by the way for yeah, okay? And I think he started doing that when I was in high school, so I was aware sort of of what this group did, what they learned, and then he probably just told us a couple of things like maybe over dinner or breakfast, like oh we did this or something, and I was like okay, and just it was just left at that pretty much. Well, I do know how teenagers are. I mean, so, yeah, you can be pretty dismissive. Parent can be like I, you know, cured cancer, and

the teenagers like all right, that's cool mom, Okay. But so but have you yourself witnessed your father like work in this space UM, working with people, or identifying things or anything kind of supernatural happening to him, even if you didn't experience something directly yourself. Did you have seen him? Um? Maybe the closest thing is so the thing you do with the healing people is where you put your hands

on them. It's similar to um. Maybe some of your listeners might be more familiar with raiky um, where you put your hands yeah on on someone's body and you can either feel where they're where they're in pain or you can help heal them. That's something Um that the people in Satri and No Santada learned how to do. So Dad um has done that on me. If I hadn't known he was using gin at the time, I'd

be like, whoa wait a minute. Um. But my aunt, whom is Dad's younger sister, she does this as well, but I don't know it does does something I need to do that as well. Is that's similar to what you did that or is it different? Well, see, sister, I think it's so what do you call that? Never studied anything of what I did, But it's sort of naturally can be you know, it's held in the debt

ability to help people. M Yeah. So yeah. One time I just had, like I think, just pains in my neck and shoulders, which I get a lot and usually if you're in Indonesia, excuse me, it's it's pretty easy and cheap to go get a message. But one day I was like, oh, Dad, do you want to try to say if he can help? And so he was like putting his hands. I mean, it's like do you

feel the hate? And I'm like a little bit. But then that was that was kind of I was like, I think that in terms of healing stuff like that, I didn't really need the help of genes, you know, because my own energies can can do it, you know. But for something that is more complicated, maybe I need a little bit of help of gene But in terms of a healing I don't really need it needed because you know, actually it's a part of what I learned in something and Santa I said, utilize my inner energy

to help other people. So basically something that everyone can learn to do it, you know, without being in forfeit supernatural things. In my case is maybe because I have some sort of flair for the supernatural. So it's just sort of like a connecting thinking what I learned in what my ability to do other stuff. So and he to let me, I say, your reaction right now when

you're joking. I know, um about it. But when you said, well, if I had known that you're using a gin or maybe not using a gina, is it because like you, even having grown up in a culture where it's very very normalized, there's still like a fear around it, like do you not want to get too close to these things? Um? I think because I don't have that sensitivity. It's and I said before, it was still kind of half theoretical

to me, like that's not something that's very evident. So like I was joking before, like I think if dad had said I'm going to use a gin to help heal you, and I'd be like, okay, do it? Like yeah, um if it helps me, like you know, get rid of my neck pain, and that's great. Um. But in terms of other things, like for example, people will say, or like what I said before, how they're supposedly gin in every room of the house. It's like, okay, well

they haven't done anything so far, so it's fine. Like how did you understand that that they just lived there like everybody else lives there. They don't want to mess with you, you don't want to just leave them alone? Or were they guardians or what what was the dynamic here?

Um Dad probably mentioned it at some point during the years that I was living there during high school, and so because it is so um naturally accepted, it's just like okay, the here And then at first maybe it was a little bit like you kind of look around the room and go, okay, where is it is? Like is it watching me get undressed? And like can I go to the toilet? And then you just forget about it, and it's just like, yeah, well, if they're gonna see,

they're gonna see. I suppose I don't think they really care at this point. So, um yeah, we'll be right back after the short break. I don't want to ask you, um specifically, it's one thing to learn, I think, um this discipline of how to kind of like feel energy and be able to detect the energy. It's another thing to be able to get gin to do what you want, right. I mean you talked about Solomon. Every Everything that I've learned in my research is that when people, when the

jin do something for people, it's not for nothing. There is some kind of negotiation. They want something or now Solomon King Solomon was able to control them because he had the power of this ring. It wasn't they weren't. They weren't helping him happily, they were like they didn't have a choice. They write there were his place. So for you, first of all, how how did you learn? Because that's a whole another level. It's one thing to know that they exist, it's another or to be able

to feel them or see them. It's another thing to be able to get them to work with you. How did you get to that point? And how do you do it? Well? Actually, um see the thing that I really sort of m you would you call that like about this new you know knowledge is because it's based

on actually the power of God m hm. So before anything, before I start doing anything, I always make a prayer that you're the powerful God, You're the powerful and I just you as your your health, inducing your other creation. Basically it's like that. So so if it's not happening, it's not happening. It's not meant to be, you know, to be happened. So basically is uh is uh? Not entirely it's up to two jeans when to help you

or not? That's right. So it's basically it's up to after God if it if you let me use gene to help me, then be it. If not, okay, no problem. It's sort of things. So I never promise anything like if I help people, so I always say ensial light will you know it'll do something good. If it's not, you know, maybe time and help you with other things, that sort of thing. Uh So, based on that believe,

I never made any transaction. You know, as you said before, you know, if you if someone gene do something and we have to do something, you know, I never you know, I've never done things like that because, uh, you know, because it's not it's not what I believe. Basically, I don't believe the gene can take over as as human because we are we are most uh higher in the position in the rank compared to gene. So you actually don't think gen can possess human beings if they are

strong enough, they can't. M hm. Just like just like you know, just like if you have a really strong fortress, it's gonna be very hard for enemy trying to penetrate it. It's a sort of a basic concept. It's you know,

it's as simple as that. You know, if you're very strong in your faith, they won't be able to penetrate you and and manipulate you, unless if you let them to manipulate you by opening up a channel for them to come, then they will, you know, they will really manipulates to the maximum, because that's that's how they are.

You know, there are many great manipulators. Are you able to identify like specific gen like for example, if you're using the power of ther gin to help in some situation and another time you're doing that again, can you tell this is the same gen? These are different gen? I mean, are you able to differentiate? And can you

actually communicate with them? Yes? Because just like actually actually just like just like as a human being, you know, before we sort of have some sort of communication, you always ask, you know, what's your name and where you're from?

Her You sort of thinks, oh my gosh, so you asked and they tell you yes, yeah, of course, because just like you know, just like very if we meet someone's somewhere and introduce ourselves, then so they introduced themselves and and you know we Wow, I have chills right now, I'm really friend, it's hard for me to good. But the interesting thing is the more you know they would is the less the less scared to us because we are scared of officer price, something that you don't expect, right,

that's what scarre is all about. But if you know who they are and how they live is there's there's nothing to fear. Basically the unknown. They are known as the scariest thing, that's right. Yeah. So are you able to see them? Are you actually able to see them? Do they come to you in a certain form. I don't know about other people, but with myself, I don't. I cannot see them, but I can't tell. We call it matta matta hatty. We see them with our eyes

that we see them are with our spiritual feeling. Okay. You know some people may say, oh I can see them. Maybe they have a sort of you know, quite ability to to penetrate with the their own eyes. But in in my case, I use my inner what you call matt, what you in the inner revision? So I sort of like described this is like this, Yeah, he's like there's always she's like this sort of thing. Can I ask you what kind of things that you might ask them

other than the healing? What are the kinds of situations might you invite to help the gen? Oh? Uh? Well, for example, like like like finding, isn't it finding things? Yeah? Yeah, because basically, basically, gene can help us for something that's already happened, but not you know, they cannot predict, but they can help with something that's already happened. So they

can't predict the future. They can't see the future, which means if somebody comes to you and says and ask for your help to predict something in the future or to help like a decision for the future, you cannot help that. You know, if they if someone will say that to me, at least they will manipulated by gin. I got it, because because they can. How can you know, how can gene see something that not even there yet? You not even there? Yeah, Basically it's as simple as that.

So if it's something it's already happened, you can't ask them because they may not himself or herself witnessing what's happening, but maybe other Uh you know, I had the gene and witness thing, so to me, the theory basically just like googling, Oh my god, this is amazing. This is amazing. It's like just like if you want to know something, yeah you can, you can just see it. Behind your laptop over they when just googling and lots of employersing came into you and they just speak this one that's

most suitable to you. So what it is too different with Gene. You know, I thought um anitsa before you joined UM the Call. I was telling you that this is not my first podcast. I've been podcasting for five years and I began my first podcast is about solving like wrong for conviction cases where innocent people are in prison. And the reason I got into that work is because I have been an advocate trying to free an innocent man since for a murder he was only a boy

then seventeen. Uh and Ariana, I'm still trying to solve this murder. He's still in prison now and we have been fighting and fighting and fighting in the appeals. I might need your help, like I know, listen, I am, I'm I'm happy to go to court, I'm happy to go to the media. I will try political solutions and I will ask the gin if that's what it takes to free this poor boy, because he has been in

prison for twenty years for something he didn't do. Uh. So maybe we can talk separately about because if anybody can help me solve this murder, then uh, then he can come home and be free. Finally, So, and I swear I'm not joking at all. So, um, this is but happy actually, But you know, so there is a phenomena at least in the United States where their law enforcement has worked with mediums and people who have these abilities where they're able to communicate. And so is that

something you've ever done? Not not, you know, intuit it far much more like family matters so close French metter, but not something that is well, I'm going to introduce you to that whole world. Now that's gonna be great. Okay, So and Sai, Actually I'm kind of curious as you listen to your father talk about these abilities and that he's communicating with Gin and he can what like, what are you thinking do you think I would you fully

believe to present this is your father? This is not like me talking a stranger where I'm like, you know, maybe I'm kind of skepital, do you do you like, yeah, it's my dad, you know, is if he's saying it, it's the truth. Yeah, kind of because when it's when it's someone that you know that speaks about it. Um, you just kind of go okay, well, yeah, that's that's

how it is. Um. I think I always call myself a skeptic, and it's it's a skeptic in in not the sense that I don't believe anything like this exists. It's more that I'm always questioning when people tell me things. But depending on the person who tells me. Like if you hear a story on you know, ghost hunting about whatever, you go, well, I don't know this person. They could just be doing it for a TV show. But when it's someone though I don't trust any of those teams,

I don't. Yeah, but when it's someone that you know, it has a different weight to it has a different meaning. So, um, even though I don't experience yet, well does experience that, or yet my sister experienced that, and it just kind of it's accepted as fact and and yeah, just move on. Yeah, it's it's it is a bit weird, Um. I think, especially for non Indonesians or maybe western quote unquote Western people,

because it's it's not as accepted. When you talk about this kind of stuff, you can really get sort of some looks of like we'll look as far as I'm concerned. Yea, as far as I'm concerned, the worst has always looked to the east for enlightenment. Okay, we know what's going on. We know what's up that the demensure and so you know, we've been tapped into them for thousands of years and that's why. Um, in the West you have every so often grous pop up and may people all like fools

out of people. But um, there's kind of a hunger and thirst. I think a lot of people all in the world. Yeah, the people believe that there is something because people on every culture experience, you know, things that they cannot explain. So there's like this thirst to have it explained. But until let me ask you something, um, and I mean I want to talk about like the specific gen stuff a little more with but let me

ask you thing. You said that you had a podcast before a few years ago about horror, and now you're doing something and this is our archild probably goes which whether the way the name is brilliant, thinks I'm quite happy with the name. Yes, it's so clever. Who came up with the name itself? I did, and I's it's

a funny little story. But when I told every single person I video called them because I wanted to see their expressions, and all my siblings, who are all younger than May just kind of rolled their eyes just did oh I had to get on a video call for this that kind of stuff. So they're not as impressed as you, So I think. Listen, I know how hard it is to brand a podcast. Let me tell you.

I had a full production team from two different production companies and me trying to come up with a name for the show, and the best we could do was the hid Engine, which is not that creative. So Archapela Ghost is a brilliant name, and I even love your logo and stuff, so kudos on it. Um but but so yeah, so now, but Arcapela Ghost is not a Would you consider it like a horror podcast? Is it something that you want to scare people with? What is your point of doing this? Oh okay, so that's actually

a really good question. The answer is no, I really don't want to scare people. I really want people just to be more open about things that they haven't heard of it or experienced. Um, we don't sort of try and get into the creepy music or the creepy stories and I don't know special effects sounds and all that kind of stuff, And we're very jokey and very casual in our conversations because I want people to just experience it in a in a lighthearted, like they're just talking

with their friends kind of way. So I really don't want to scare people at all. But it is all still related in that same kind of universe where it's the unknown, like horror is fear of the unknown, and all these supernatural matters of things that are unknown. So I guess in a way it is it is connected. Um, were you one of those kids who wanted to try to connect with the unknown? Like did you like being

scared and bring it? I definitely don't want to actually experience it's it's kind of weird, like I sort of just accept that they're there, and then it's kind of if. And then people ask, so you want to see proof, and I'm like, no, no, I don't need to see proof. I'm just like, yeah, that's fine, if they're there, I just don't want to actually see them. They're still to me, it's irrational that I can sort of be skeptical but

also believing but also not wanting proof. At the same time, it doesn't really it's not quite logical, but that's just that's just how it is, it I think, I mean, it sounds a lot like faith in religion, like every faith and legion, right, I mean, we believe in things we can't see and we don't not need to be proven, and I so I don't think it's um. Look, look, you know Halloween is fast approaching by the time this episode airs. I'm not sure if Halloween will have come

and gone. But even in the West, it's like, you know, there is this kind of like at least kind of like there's a desire to want to believe in it um and and actually a desire to kind of want to be scared. We love the horror movies. We love the scare of the jump scares and stuff. All right, let me ask you, was there ever a time when you were actually really scared of any experience that you had.

Maybe you opened a door to something you didn't want, or you set a prayer for help and instead of help something happen an entity that was dark and scary instead came to you. Yeah. Uh, well, actually that's uh, that's one of the reason I kind of a sort of you know, stop doing these sort of things and oh,

you're not doing it anymore, but I need to help. Wait, the thing is like mm hmm, I still called myself first in the beginner's sort of thing, and I haven't really yet met the very what you call that personality gene yet. Uh, but it's not it's not impossible that if I keep doing it, I will meet a gene who who is more powerful than I do. Then it

can you know, endangered my myself sort of thing. Because I realized it's my knowledge is still for the you know, for the shallow in this in this what do you call it gen's business? So I decided, okay, um, maybe maybe I shouldn't, you know, continue of being you know,

this sort of thing. At least I knows about who they are and how they live and how can we can sort of live togethers And I have knowledge about them, and it's already sort of enough for me, you know, I don't have to take it further because because again I'm not meant to be that kind of a person, you know. It just it's just something that happened to me in in you know, in a concidencly you know, so you actually stop doing all this kind of work. But once you have it just still kind of like,

you know, it's still carried with you. But I did not, you know, take it further sort of thing. You know, I still can feel it, but but maybe in the old days. Uh. It's a funny thing because in the old day I just treated it's just like a new friend to me, you know, like if I if I have nothing to do it that I just you go about in the end, the start calling one of them and have some sort of you know, conversation with them. You know, so that's why you're hanging out on the balcony. Wow,

it's amazing. So from from that experience, I learned quite a bit about but you know how they leave and tell me, tell me about that, Tell me what you learned. I want to I want to hear this. Well. Uh, I have a good story before dad Dad starts. It's just something that I thought of. Is you mentioned in in your episode Rabbia about there's all the different genes and the different kinds there are. There's the one that's

sort of attached to a person or a family. Yeah, so our family like the extended family, um, like dad's siblings and that kind of stuff. There is actually supposedly one or some is a dad that sort of protecting the family. M oh yeah, okay, okay, they've been passed down through generations something like that. Yet And is that something you were told about growing up or like everybody in the family kind of knows or um it was. I think I heard about it when I was grown up.

So I had already left gone to Australia and come back and one of those times because stories and things like this, information just comes in like you know, this cousin had a baby and we have a gin guardian for the family, that kind of thing. So and it was just like, okay, so that's something else that this family has amongst all the other things. So yeah, that's something Dad would know much more about. Because I'm not up with all the Indonesian gossip, okay, okay, Well, I

want to hear of the guss about the general. I want to know what the GM live like and what you learned from them, and then I want to hear about your family. Jin. Well actually, yeah, in Indonesia, just as you mentioned before, in the old days, because you know, Indonesian were colonized by Dutch were quite sometimes so our ancestors are are all grandparents, you know, always in the world.

It does so to a certain extent. They use jeans to help, right, So the gene is passed on from generation to generation to help the family to basically it's uh just like a guardian kind of thing. Uh and then's passed on from a family to family to family until I think my my my father uh side. And this story basically it's very interesting because I did at the time, I didn't know about that. But I have a producers film producers friends who who I work with

her quite some often. All of a sudden he called me and I said, oh, arno, uh can we, you know, meet up have a coffee? I said, oh yeah, what what's what's all about? And now I have something to tell you said, oh yeah, I said, okay, So so you know, we made up and have a coffee. And I asked her, okay, what is this all about? And she said, okay, next to you, this uh, this person, he said, what person? You know? It was in the

in the cafe. In the cafe and he said, this new person dressed like this and this this is this and he said, he has one, uh guardian to your family. And I said, no, I didn't. I didn't know. What is it? What is it? What? What is it? What does she want? I didn't know that. Then my family has a guarden known as not for not you know, from your family, but from your father's and father's families. Okay, what does he wants? So he told my my At

that time, I didn't know. I didn't know, but this sort of spiritual thing, you know, I was still pure and simple. So so she said, uh, as he asked you whether his surface is still needed? Oh my gosh, said, I said, what surface? Where he's been uh, guarding your family you know for this uh quite quite sometimes now, you know. And now it seems like nobody's really really you know, cares about his presence. Well because you know, my family basically you can call it modern family, so

we don't really into that sort of thing anymore. He needed, he needn't need be needed. Yeah. So so so he he asked me whether my family still needs his surface to guarding the family. Uh, And I said, well, I don't know about it. I asked my family, you know, and what's happening? So I get my family, my siblings or together, and I told them about what's happening. That I met a friend of mine and told them about

what's happening. And my eldest but uh said, oh yeah, this is from you know, from the great great brand fathers and this and the suffer. Okay, So now you know, I asked you all whether we still want him to god us, you know, if not, then I let him go and do whatever, you know, become a genior or something, you know. Uh. And so now of course my family, you know, family not into that sort of thing. No, no, no they can you know, he's free to go whatever, you know, and uh and and just say thank you

for all this time. The surface they're given to the family, so you know, so I I didn't know how to do that, but but I just said to him, okay, who whoever you are, who you're getting my family? And I said, the family that you know now don't really need your first surface, but the appreciate of the surface has been given to family for this summertime, and now you're free to go. So you know, basically this is

what I do. You know, because I didn't know how to communicate with Gin at that time, you know, right, right, So the family gin is gone, the family gene is gone. So it's you know, but I didn't put him in the bottle. Right Well, let me ask you this. You know, um, when when you said that, you got to learn a lot about like Gin life and how the Gin are

and the Gin world is. Right, the most calm portrayal of the Gin in the Western imagination is exactly that you find a bottle, you rub it, the genie comes out and says, I'll grant you three wishes. Does that actually exist in the genie world? From it's from your interactions with Gin, it doesn't seem like the genner there to like just grant wishes. They might help. Granting wishes is like bringing you something like some money or or making you wealthy or you know, instead of helping you

solve something or fix the problem. Well, basically that's what I that's what I find out. Yeah, when I you know, I had a lot of conversation. If eat gene, they are just like us, you know, they are a good gene, they're a bad gene there, you know, just like in our daily life, there is a crook, there is a banded this whatever, and there's also good people as well.

So that's that's what I found out. So to me, those gene who are bad, those who are trying to scare us a bit, whatever operason that they they you know, manipulation that they do to human being, that that are the kind of gene who are the baby the good one? They don't do it sort of don't trust those ones, the ones who make those promises, that's what you're saying. That's that's right, because because the problem we don't say them,

so we don't really know what they're doing. So why why we're trusting something that you don't really you know all about them? So uh we you know, have you have you ever come across In one of the episodes um that will air, I'm going to talk a little bit about relationships between gin and human beings. Is that something you've ever seen? And when I say relationship, I mean like an actor like a romantic relationship. Yeah, because that that was actually my first experience. That's what can

you talk about it? When I actually my first experience when when this this this man to the past, it on the knowledge to me and he wanted to to test it whether I can you know, I can utilize knowledge you've given to me. So he's sort of sort of like calling, you know, a few genes and go and go and talk to me through through my body. And I become became a medium this sort of thing, you know. And and surprisingly he said to me, okay, I have given you. I passed it on to you. Uh,

this such and such a gene. He he's a male gene and this he is big and whatever. She just described it to me, and it just passed it on to me. So I can't feel it how they are if they are within me sort of thing, you know. And it's very it is every single jeans are quite different. Yeah, the feeling that's uh, that I've felt at that time, you know. And and in the last he said to me, I'm gonna pass it on a female gene, so you can tell the different if it's a female or male.

So so, so he is passing on and and and I said, yeah, it is different, it's quite different. It's more gentle sort of thing. The gentle feelings come in two to your bodies. And and and he started making question. He asked the gene who what are you doing? And what's your name? And where where you from that sort of thing, you know, and it is very funny because, uh, he asked, who are you and he said, I mean sat in such it. I think I told the nieces

to it. Uh. The names, the name that you know that that I it's very I don't know, it's just un human name sort of thing, you know. Okay, it's not named that we're used to, and that's right. And and said, okay, what are you doing here? Well, I just passed on this house and you called me, said okay, and wherever do you live in it? And she said I live in India? It's really yeah. Yeah. And what is your family? I'm the daughters of a king, said mh in India. He said, okay, how old are you?

And I can I can't remember it, but still teenages basically, you know, he's still teenages. And and this man asked me are you are you married it? No, I'm still I'm still a teenager seventeen years and again do you want to get married? Oh? Yes, I said, And that's what she said. And you do you like arian and she said yes, I like my U. This is a very you know. I I just sort of really stunned, you know, just you're hearing these answers come out of

your own mouth. That's right. Just just like just just like this, just like I'm talking to you, I'm using it, but you know it's not you, but it's you. You're not I know, I'm using you know, like right at this moment, I'm using a headset. Nobody says this, says I'm talking to someone, but I'm talking because I hear you talking through much. It's a sort of a similar sponcept. You know, I hear them talking, I know it is not me, right right, and so basically they I give

myself to amplify their voice kind of concept. Yeah, and you know, yeah, okay, I like him. Okay, do you want to marry here? You know why not? I mean, you know, I make it a very very casual and and this this man said, I would that my spiritual guru. He staid, uh, he married that. But and you know what, what's very surprising to hear the answer, And he said

we're Muslim his for wife. No, And I know, I just laughing, you know, and I just laughing and and said, okay, oh yeah, no, no, no, he doesn't he doesn't want you to get Okay, you can. You can, you can just go okay, So this was an opportunity you had and you didn't take. There are people apparently who have taken the opportunity to say, yeah, I'm going to establish a relationship with the gin, a marriage or romantic relationship. Have you ever met somebody like that? Do you know

anybody like that? Uh? Well, I I read quite a lot of people who hasn't married Jean, but I never encounter with someone that I knew. Would you recommend tnue for those who are single and looking at what actually it may happen? You know why? Because um, it is a versus in the court on that said, all you mankind married your own kind, so meaning there's a possibility that they can marry the under kind, right right, right,

But that is so true. Yeah, yeah, married your own kind, especially otherwise if they cannot do that, just you know, God wouldn't have to tell you that, Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so because some people may do it. And then in Indonesia, uh yeah, I heard quite a lot of people who you know who has a different kind of Yeah, you can look it up on the internet too. There are people who claim it another thing. Why why it's sort of confirm this theory because my this is my own sibling,

my own sister. Yeah, at the time, she was still married to her husband, and there's excellently Oh well, at that time, he thought it was her husband came to the room, and she knows that her husband's still out there. Um, okay, I have chills again. What that's that's that's that's what you know. So somebody came into her bedroom and it

looked like her husband, but she knew her husband. And then what happened, Well, because she knew, of course, you know, she she automatically sort of we call it, uh, what is it? This must be a gene immitate. Yeah, because they can't many feel then shift into different you know, different shape, they wont being being an energy. So yeah, she was able to get rid of it. Oh yes, yeah,

because she knows. Yeah, yeah, so ANSA at the I really hope that we can have another another conversation, maybe in a few months, and have you guys back on because I have so many more questions and I bet you our listeners when we have questions. So if you guys are open to it, would you guys be willing to come back for another chat? Later, I think that this than either. So here we have more stories than I will. But I totally get it. But Lisa, at the beginning, at the top of our interview, you did

say you had a story to share, didn't you say that? Yeah? Oh my go to story. Yeah, let's hear the go to story. Um. Well, actually Dad was there when this happened, So maybe that's why it happened, because he was there, because nothing's ever happened and I'm by myself. Um, but this is in my parents house when we just moved in.

I think we'd been in there maybe for about a week or so, and Dad and I were just sitting in the living room watching TV one night, maybe around nine or nine thirty, and it was just the two of us in the living room and we have this glass these glass doors in the living room that lead out to the backyard. Um, so you can see outside. We had the light on, the blinds were still up so you could still see outside that there was nothing there,

no one there. And just all of a sudden, the doors started shaking like someone was trying to open the door but couldn't because it was locked. And this went on and there wasn't an earthquake happening. No, no, because in Indonesia we get earthquakes, um, and you know what they feel like, the you feel, you feel the earth move, you feel whatever you're sitting on or lying on move. This was we were just sitting there and it was just the sound and the movement of the doors shaking.

And both of you saw this happen. And yeah, we both heard it because it was quite. It was loud. It wasn't just like a little rattling. It was like a proper like you know, let me in, that kind of shaking of a door. And this is like the first and only thing that's ever happened to me that's related to this. And I just kind of looked at it, and I looked at Dad, waiting for him to give an explanation. He didn't. He was just like whatever. And I was like, I can't even remember what I said.

If I said what was that? I think I probably said what was that? And then just got creeped out. Um. And then this, this is related to something about in Indonesia when you when you go into new spaces, um, places that are unfamiliar that you sort of then the different the belief is different. Depending on if you're religious or not. If if you're not religious, you might think you're asking permission from the being or the gin too

passed by, or to live there. If you're a Muslim, you might be just sort of not asking permission, but rather introducing yourself and say, hey, I live here now, and let's sort of get along kind of thing. So my interpretation is that because we were newly moved in, and maybe we hadn't no one had said hi, were then you the new people who live in this house, You're going to have to live with us. Yeah, the gene was kind of like, hey, I'm here, can you

sort of introduce yourself or something. I don't know, maybe it was something like that, but maybe Dad we've talked about this, but I've never actually asked Dad what his interpretation of that event was, or if you notice anything, do you remember that night? Because uh, it always happened to a new person who came to our house, because it because one once we were the whole family went to Australia. So I asked the uh, uh, what you

call it? A person that I know to stay there in the house to look after a while in Australia. So that's actually what happened to him. He said, I was I was sleeping in, you know, in in the TV room. You know, it was suddenly it's just like someone started to get in, you know, shaking the glass door, and I was so scared? Is it? So I said, well, you know, because because you were new. They answered, maybe maybe they can't take it. Didn't really know who you are,

so try to get you it. Maybe maybe the guardian Jim thought, this person is like trespassing exactly. Wow. Well, um, I'm gonna have to wrap up, but I want to ask you one last question. Um, and again, please please, I would love to have you guys back on because especially I have so many more I only hear all your stories. But let me see this. Where does your very first episode for Arcapela Ghost was with your father talking about gin and I and I saw that you you said an email to me that that was he

had suggested that topic. And now I understand why because he knows all about it. What other things are you like? What other kinds of entities? Because you know, I happen to be I happen to be that that like raised in a way, it's like anything unexplained Oh, it's this old gin, right, it's a oldgin. So but what what other kind of beliefs and things are gonna be talking about in future episodes? Um? So Yeah, like as as a Muslim, yeah, you believe all these different manifestations or

basically lead back to Gin. But if if you're not a Muslim, or if you maybe not a completely believing or um practicing one, you think that they're all separate things. So um for example, like episode two is um I call it a legend, but some people also call her a gin queen. Her name is near Kid and she's called the Queen of the South Sea, and she's supposedly the queen of a kingdom in um the Sudden Sea of Java. Uh and yeah there's um one of amazing

is that? Is that a so too? That's episode two? Okay, she's very interesting. Um. And then we've got episode three talking about actual possessions, which is also another thing that's very common in Indonesia. You can talk about someone being possessed as casually as someone getting a new job. For example, Like people will ask questions, but they won't be very surprised if you tell someone that you know they know someone who was possessed. Um. Yeah, there's a whole bunch

of other different beings and shapes. There's one of the episodes that we're going to do. I'm going to talk about the Big Three, which is the most famous or most well known of Indonesia's supernatural beings. Um. And one is aunt, which is the typical Asian black, long hair, white dress, that kind of image, um, like the wronged

woman kind of thing. And then yeah, and then one is a Potchong, which you might be familiar with when I tell you, But basically a pot young is in the form of when a Muslim is buried, how they're wrapped in the white often then you have the ties around I think the neck and the feet and the waist and something like that. That's that's an actual being

that's quite well known. It appears like that. It appears like that, and it's it's quite funny because because it's still tied up, they can only get around by jumping, so it's not very bad. Takes away to terrifying a little bit. And then the last one of the Big Three is um. This one actually could be related quite well to Gin. This one's called a Thuyo. It's the in the in the form of like a little a

little kid that's baled, and they can be um. They can be sort of I guess, looked after like a pet, and they do your bidding. And usually they're used by people called dukun, which is like a shaman or a black magic practitioner. They own Duo, they own Thuyo sorry, these little beings, and they can be told to go to people's houses and steal money for them. It's something bubble. It's kind of like, yeah, like a little bit um.

I think my my sister talks about a story where she sort of said, because this is my sister, she saw something when she was younger, and we think maybe she saw it though you and she said it looked like a like Dobby from Harry Potter. There you go. Yeah, but um yeah, so if you sort of because there are these gin's that you can, like you talked about before, the transactional idea of if you ask for something from a gin, that gin will want something back to you.

So the idea with these tool there the shape of a little kid um, you actually have to like give them toys and give them food. And apparently there's one belief where you have to breastfeed them, which is really gross. Oh my goodness. Yeah, but then they will go to people's houses and steal money and jewelry and stuff for you. So I might have more questions about the breastfitting one. Um, but I also go back to that, don't you have to be lactating to do? Okay? Well, anyway, I'm getting

too technical here. Um, well so you okay, So where can listeners find your podcast? I must I think it's on most of most of the most apps. Yeah, it's It's definitely on iTunes and Google Spotify, Um, it's And then you can just listen straight on out and our website, which is a capella ghosts with an S at the end dot com. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as

much as I did. Now there are as many people in the world with Jin stories as there are gin, so if you have one you'd like to share, make sure to email it to me at the Hidden Gin at gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th H E H I D D N d J I n N at gmail dot com. And until next time, remember we are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and mild from Aaron Mankey.

The podcast is written and hosted by Robbia Chaudre and produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our theme song was created by Patrick Quartets. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.