Hello, and welcome to the heart of it.
We would like to acknowledge the Gadigor people of the Eor nation, the traditional custodians of this land, and we pay our respects to the elders, both past and present. I've got a great chat for you today, especially if you're interested in the dating apps.
Which I think a lot of people are. I mean, it's these days. It's as we mentioned, as you listen in eight out of ten people are meeting on the apps. That's a huge amount.
Yes, Doctor Lisa Portalain is with us. She's a dating app expert. She's the author of the book.
Ten Ways to Find Love. She has a PhD on dating apps and intimacy. I know and she does. She brings some deep inside.
She knows her stuff. One of the things that is going to trip you out, and you must listen in is a paywall of hotties. It's going to make sense when you listen, and it's going to shock the hell out of you.
It's not something the American Republicans have built.
It is not.
It's not the war, it is not.
But AI and the apps have.
Built a wall. We are talking safety concerns with dating apps as well. As swipe fatigue.
Yeah, and it's not swiping, it's not cleaning. It's not talking about cleaning. Might not go there. It is it is swiping on the apps. It's a really interesting chat. Please stay tuned and listen in.
Doctor Lisa Portalan has going to tell us all about what she learned.
Doctor Lisa Portal and welcome, Thank you so much, Thanks, thanks for coming in. This is fantastic.
It's a different it's a different thing to study, isn't it like this kind of the dating apps and intimacy? I mean, I don't I can't think of anyone else that You're our first, Yes, specifically focus in on the dating apps. But what a great thing to focus in on, because it is here today, like eight out of ten people seem to be meeting on the apps. So what a great thing to talk about.
So the question is why why did you why did you study right about the dating culture?
So I started back in twenty eighteen and I was working in PR and I was sitting in this big office with about, you know, thirty different people, and I had been in a relationship for a very long time. But all of these people around me, particularly young people, were talking about how they had met someone online and I got this message and this is what she said.
And then I met them in person and they weren't like, you know, what the online presence was and all this sort of stuff, And I thought, this is so curious. I thought, you know, back in the day, we were all meeting face to face.
Yeah, we're all having affairs in the office. Yes, those eighteen people were probably all together. I work in an office.
Well, I I just thought to myself, Wow, this has really changed the way people are dating and meeting and falling in love and hookups, and nobody's studying it. Nobody's considering how our relationships are put through this digital sieve. And I thought, this is incredible that nobody's considering this and the wider impact on society and culture and love.
And so when I proposed it as a PhD, there were a lot of people that sort of thought it was a bit too fluffy or you know, not something that was very cool, the perfect yes, right, And so it was hard to convince people that it was going to be relevant at some point in time. So but fast forward to today, and you know, as you said, eight out of ten people are meeting online and it has changed the way we conduct our relationships.
What is the most surprising thing that you discovered, Like after your PhD, was there one thing that stood out the most that you were shocked by? I think you know, my PhD was conducted during COVID, so it was during a lockdown period and people had nowhere else to actually meet. They were very much they had to be meeting in the dating app space, and it was a really difficult period of time because people kind of felt like if
they were single, they felt like they'd missed out. It was like the doors of closed, I'm never going to meet anyone face to face. I may have missed my opportunity of having a long term relationship, marriage, kids, hookups.
Whatever it might be. They felt like they'd missed the boat, and they felt like they had to be in the online domain. And that was a really emotional process for a lot of people because if you've ever been in the online space on dating apps, it's tough. It's a tough environment and people will describe it as death by one hundred paper cuts sport.
Yeah, So what is the tough just to describe or elaborated on the toughness.
I think it's a.
Lot of these microaggressions. There's hundreds of these microaggressions of you know, meeting someone online, ghosted online, are having these conversations online that are incredibly boring minutia being going face to face and discovering that the person is not who you thought it was going to be. So it's all of these tiny microaggressions that kind of lead up and make people feel like I'm actually not going to be able to meet anyone in the future, and love has sort of passed me by.
One of my dearest friends has been on the apps, tried all of them, the rays, the bumble, the tenders, they done it all. And I'm sure you hear this
all the time because I certainly do too. Is like I have to take a break, which she's just I'm off all the apps right now because I just need to, because it becomes it's not necessarily addiction, but it's that fatigue and just that starting over another conversation and starting over another one, and then, as you say, the ghosting, and then it's just the amount of energy it takes
to be on there sometimes just feels overwhelming. We never did it, We've never done it, So where we don't know, you know what, I can empathize it, we can't sort of relate in.
That when your friend says that she's she needs a break, is that because she needs a break from actually physically dating the people or is it the time spent on the phone.
It's time spent on the phone, it's the ghosting, it's the it's the getting. You know, you're going down one path with someone and then they say something really gross and you're like, Okay, that's the end of that one. Back to square one, back to square one.
Yeah, So this is a really common occurrence. So people have a very cyclical experience with dating apps. They will download multiple different dating apps Bumble, Tinder, Hinge, and be across all of those different platforms. It will be very busy. They'll be sending direct messages, chatting all that sort of stuff, and then, like you said, there will be all these bits and pieces in the mix. Something think really gross has been said, someone's ghosted you, someone's not met you
in person. And then people think, I can't deal with this anymore. I'm going off the apps, so I'm going to delete all of the apps. And then they'll spend a period of time like a bit of a detox away from the apps, and it'll be a couple of months and they won't meet anyone face to face, and then they will cycle back on.
Right.
So it's kind of a cyclical process with dating apps, and a lot of people would say the longest relationship I ended up having was actually with the dating apps as opposed to an actual person.
Yes, yes, Well, what.
Did you have an idea of what the biggest misconception is around dating apps?
M oh? I think the tough one is that people go on dating apps for something, whether it is they're on the dating apps for a hookup and intimacy, the love of their life. It'll vary, right, but they're expecting to come to some sort of conclusion from an intimacy perspective.
But what actually ends up happening is it tends to be, as you mentioned, a lot of work, so people will describe it as a second job as opposed to actually getting to whatever their end goal is, whether it's the relationship or the hookup, or it's just a lot of.
Noise, right, yeah, have or do you feel in what way dating apps have changed the way that we define love or define attraction.
Yeah, I often say to people, I think dating apps are kind of like the uber eats of relationships. Right, you can constantly be consuming on dating apps, and there's always someone else on the other side, so you can never do tend to completely. You can always keep swiping, and there is always the potential of the grass being greener or some someone else, which means, I guess it translates into a consumption of love and disposability at the
same time. So a lot of people as a result end up tying their bonds loosely because they are expecting that they can unravel that bond quickly. And it is that sense of the dating apps in terms of this constant rollerdex of different partners and relationships and the idea that there could be someone else that's a better match for you out there.
You're not painting a pretty picturely, it's just visualizing the rollerdecks again. But I've got like twenty other girls I've already matched with.
Now, would you invest in emotionally and take the chance? You know when I guess what you're saying when you say the grass is greener and statements like that that it would it would you protection of your own heart would come into it.
Absolutely, absolutely, and I think it's sort of there is an issue in terms of with love, as you would know, you have to choose someone. That's really the essence of it. At some point in time, you have to choose someone and go Okay, might not be my utter perfect match, but you have to move You have to work on
the different elements to keep the relationship going. While as dating apps tend to encourage this idea that you can just keep moving on to the next person, uh and moving through all those different matches, when in reality it negates that idea that you have to choose one person to build an intimacy.
Do you find that that's exactly the same across both sexes as well.
Or a.
Men a little bit more inclined to use it just as like a hookupy thing and just like sail through where women are a little bit more on the side of love.
Yeah.
Look, I think there was a mix in my focus groups and interviews, so definitely there were men that were looking for hookups, but there were also women that were looking for hookups as well and long term relationships. So I think it's I think it's a bit of a mix, and I think the really interesting thing about my research was that while people were still hooking up, there was still this idea of the end game and this idea
of this big love within the mix. Like the majority of people in my research thought at some point in time, this big love would eventuate for them, which sort of like harks back to this idea. You know that, you know that narrative and fiction and movies and rom coms and all that sort of stuff has created for us. The theory is someone out there for us at the end. And this was kind of an ongoing theme within my work.
I just coming back to that that coming you made before that in love you end up having to make make a choice, and with that choice you have to learn acceptance and patience, because if you're on this this app or there's all this choice there for you, it's like, yeah, I just move on. Yeah, it's too hard. I had a friend of ours when we're living in the States, and he was very picky with I don't I think he did the apps, but he was very picky about.
Who he chose. And he was forty years old at.
That point, and he he brings someone over and be like that she's nice, and he'd be.
Like, yeah, but she does this and does that. I'm like, dude, you never are you ever going to find someone perfect? I mean even OL's pretty close to perfect. But you know, I'll turn it on myself.
Actually, Okay, you know maybe, but now there's there's things that we have to be patient with, and that's going to be more patient with me.
But yeah, absolutely.
I don't know if you've ever watched the Netflix series around the Indian Matchmaker. I absolutely love it.
I've seen the trailer for it.
Yes, Auntie Seima, she's out there matchmaking people and one of her golden rules is that seventy percent is close enough. So if you meet someone that has seventy percent of your requirements, then that's close enough and the rest you can build on during the term of your relationship, which I think is absolutely fantastic and a great idea on
what we should base our relationships around. But certainly, you know, the era of dating apps means that there is this sort of sense, a greater sense of judgment, and a lot of my participants would talk about how the dating apps had made them more judgmental, and this was because you know, obviously, dating apps are based on esthetics, so you know, they encourage a real visual economy. So if we were to meet face to face, we'd be taking on all these different prompts. You know, the tone of
someone's voice, are they funny, are they smart? All sorts of bits and pieces. But on the dating apps, you basically you have that visual prompt of their image and you either swipe right or left based on that, which encourages this judgment in a second, of terms of whether
or not you're compatible based on appearance. People would also talk about, you know, when they were in the DM chat, the direct message chat with these people, if they said one thing that might give them the equal was a little bit odd, they just quickly unmatch them and move on because there's this constant stream of individuals that you could be connecting with. So there was definitely this sense that there was a greater judgment involved. Now on the dating.
Apps, you mentioned that you've said swiping a few times. Now, I imagine with all the choice, there will be a lot of a lot of a lot of opportunities to swipe. And I was reading your stuff before, I'm talking about swipe fatigue. Yes, So you know, how do we how do people how do we I'm not doing it?
How do how do people avoid that?
Yeah, it's a really tricky one, right. So you know, we have to keep in mind that dating apps are fairly gamer fight, right, so they're there to keep you in the mix, and they're not really there as much as you know. There are dating apps that are designed to be deleted, they're really not like the The main aim is to keep you on the dating app, right, So people talk about going into infinite swipes, so they'll just be this wiping away because it becomes almost like
a bit of a game to them. And there are all these different gamified elements. You know, you can buy roses for people, you can boost your profile to more people. There's all these different components that sort of gather people
up in sort of a gaming sort of environment. And then on top of that, there's the dopamine hits, which I think you mentioned a little bit in terms of you know, people feeling that they do match with someone and they have a little chat and there's that little boost in the ego and the sense of self, and there's the dopamine hit from that which people get addicted to.
And then there's also the drops in terms of the not matching or the unmatching, or the comments that are just a little bit gross, and so it creates that kind of rollercoaster ride that you would experience with any kind of addiction. Really, people do become a to the platform.
So if you have to get away from that infinite swipe, you have to go onto the app with a real specific purpose and really set up parameters around what exactly you're doing here, how long you're going to spend on the app, what you're going to accept, and when you're going to leave as well.
Is there one particular app? I mean, I know this is I don't know if you're even allowed to say this, but is there one that you in your study that feels the most clear, genuine, better app to be on.
I wouldn't say there is. They're all fairly similar. And you know, my research in particular focused on Tinder and Bumble because Tinder was the first sort of heterosexual dating app that was out there, I think back in twenty ten, and people sort of when they think of dating apps, they gravitate towards Tinder, and Bumble was created not long after there, but the focus was obviously on women and
providing women the opportunity to make the first move. So back in the day, Tinder was considered a bit of the brow app and Bumble was the feminist app, so it was kind of like assessing two different ends of the spectrum. But in reality, a lot of the dating apps are very similar. The behaviors that go on are very similar, and people tend to have profiles on multiple different dating apps to kind of, you know, keep their options open, so to speak. So I wouldn't say there's
necessarily any dating apps that are particularly better or worse. Certainly, you know, these days we're seeing a growth in subscriptions around dating apps as well, so this concept of you know, locking up the hotties or putting people behind a paywall who are more who would be a better match for you as well, So that's all, you know, you've got to think about this part.
I heard you talk about this is a trip, Yes, so explain that a little bit more like if we just use the basic version and then you're looking because people have said why am I matching with people that are like I would never in a million years, And it's like, where are.
We locked them up? You got to pay for those?
Yes, yes, and who judges that who decides who's.
On the probably, well, that's that's exactly it.
Right.
So back in the day it was a different kind of ball game in terms of dating apps, and you're probably more likely to be able to match with someone who is who you're after and sort of meets the requirements that you're after. And these days there's a big push around the subscriptions and signing up to these premium packages to seeing your best matches who can be kind
of locked up behind this pay wall of sorts. And as you raise a very interesting question, who defines who the hotties are because we don't all think the same people are us exactly right, it is likely an AI type of function in terms of, well, Lisa swipes right consistently on this type of.
Person, we're going to lock them away.
And so that this person is going to be locked away and she has to pay her thirty dollars a month to be able to see these people.
That feels like blackmail. It's a kind of blackmail, right, Like you pay more and you might get more of a chance of meeting your mate.
That's right, that's so bad. People really object to paying for love.
Yes, but I always thought the whole idea of this, which I didn't mind, the idea of this that instead of going to your regular pub, you know, where you know everyone's going to be, you're going to be introduced to a cross section of people that you would never come across. Yes, so you know, it'd be like sort of dating in New York City, as I imagine that to be where you don't know really what anybody does. You don't know where they live, what car they drive.
Most of them don't have a car, you know, but it's a pretty wide, very field in that in Manhattan.
Yes, And.
That's what I thought the dating apps were all about, that you're going to actually meet someone that you ordinarily wouldn't come.
Across in your daily work life or social life. So that's that.
Doesn't what you're suggesting here, That doesn't seem to be the case.
Well, look, I think there are two things can be true at the same time, right, And I do think that at the end of the day, where I'm always i feel like I'm dating apps as big as detract us. Sometimes I'm always sort of talking about the negatives. But I do think that it does open up a whole cross section of people that you wouldn't ordinary meet. So you know, if we were back in the day, it was sort of you know, a family and friends would
introduce us to people. We'd meet people through the office, so we kind of had a closed circle of who we would come into contact with, while as dating apps kind of open up that circle so you could meet someone in a different city for example. You know, think about people that are living in regional places in Australia as well, who have you know, a very sort of closed circuit of people have an opportunity to meet someone
you know somewhere else all together. So there are a lot of positives in the mix too, and you know that can certainly, you know, as as mentioned, eight out of ten people are meeting on dating apps these days, and there are a lot of relationships and marriages that
come out of dating apps. But certainly for people, for the majority of people, it does feel like they have to sift through a lot of these toxic sort of issues in the background before or they eventually get to someone who is their match.
Yes, it sounds like sounds like the casting in Los Angeles, like because everyone was flocking from all over the world to go to Los Angeles to act, but you know, it was everyone there, so the casting directors really had to be the gatekeeper and the cream would rise, but you had to sift through a lot of different different people.
What are some of the common mistakes that people make on dating apps?
Well, I think one of the really common mistakes is not presenting yourself as who you are. So I think, you know, definitely the platforms encourage you to put your best foot forwards, so you know, you want to put the best images of yourself up and the best description and all that sort of stuff, because you're conscious that you are trading in a visual economy and that's the
first thing that people are going to see. But one of the critical issues around dating apps is obviously around authenticity and you know, actually connecting with someone who says who they say they are and vice versa yourself at the same time. So I guess, you know, putting that sort of more authentic self forward is probably the best approach, but people feel like they have to put forward a pseudo version of Lisa or the best version of Lisa.
This is tricky because when you say, you know, if I'm putting my best foot forward to the app, and then I'm being rejected by no one's picking me out, no one's swiping, whichever way the tick is. Explain how fear of rejection plays a part in the dating apps, and what can in your studies and what you found out, what can people do in order to just sort of deal with that better.
I think this is a really interesting question because fear of rejection came up a lot, and it came up a lot in terms of why people were using dating apps. So they would say, being rejected on a dating app is, you know, one of those many paper cuts that you experience on a dating app, But being rejected face to face is a completely different ballgame. And I don't feel
like I can be rejected face to face anymore. So there was that was a big, a big pathway in terms of why they were using dating apps in particular. But certainly I think that people would often talk about how dating apps would make them feel, and often they would say things like dating apps make me feel really
shit about myself. Like, prior to this experience, I thought I was okay, you know, I thought that I was fairly attractive, you know, I had a good job, and funny, all these sorts of bits and pieces, and then I got on the dating apps and it was crickets and you know, I feel pretty low about myself. My self esteem has definitely dropped as a result of this experience.
And this is all part, I guess to some degree of that addiction in terms of there are the big dopamine hits and then there are lows, and you get stuck on this roller coaster of emotions.
Do you think they're here to stay? I mean, or are we ever going to go back to meeting the love of your life at a nightclub?
I do think that they're here to stay.
I do.
Did you meet a nightclub?
Or we did? We did?
We did? I do think they're here to stay because they do open up this cross section of people to you. And you know, we all lead such busy lives that you know, it's just easy to jump online who you can meet. And I do think that we have lost to some degree a lot of the soft skills that it takes to actually converse with people in public and
meet to build up an intimacy. Even you know, flirting or just striking up a conversation with a stranger are all for example, gen z are all things that you know they're not familiar with because they have interacted for the most part in an online domain, whether it's through dating apps, whether it's for friendships, whether it's for gaming, the majority of it's happened in that online space, and they've kind of lost that those face to face elements,
which is actually very sad, but I do think that they are here to stay moving forward.
Our nineteen year old is she's not on the dating apps, but like when she meets someone, you just get their snap from Snapchat. You get their snap and then you start conversing. Still, yes, so it's still through text, it's still through your phone, so it's not just like let's just meet and then they might meet up, but it's still yeah, as you were saying, it's still through an extra thing in between them, that screen.
It's still absolutely and whether it's through TikTok or Instagram
or whatever platform it might be. So that whole sort of preliminary discussion is kind of conducted in the online space, and certainly it does take out that element of that fear of rejection, for example, but there was also a bit of a gap for people sometimes in terms of you know, they would have been chatting to someone online for a period of time and had built up an image of what that person would be like, and then they would meet them in person and very rarely would
the person actually match what they had experienced in that online space. So there's that gap between you know, our digital presence and who we are in real life as well, which is difficult to bridge.
What's the TikTok trend and how that does that shape relationship.
TikTok okay, So you know, in terms of TikTok, a lot of people these days believe it or not get their relationship advice from TikTok, which you know is somewhat surreal. I think, you know, you would think that, you know, you would get your relationship advice from you know, friends or parents or relatives or your counselor.
Or a psychologist or you know, whoever it might be.
But people do go to TikTok and there's all sorts of you know, relationship influences within the mix that apout all types of advice. But as you can imagine, with TikTok, you've literally got three seconds to grab people. So people move on to the next thing on TikTok within three seconds. So that sort of thing exasperates the need to say something that is in essence clickbait, like something that is
really out there to grab people quickly. And as we know, within the relationship space, it's often very nuanced, so it's not as clear as you know, one catchphrase or a sentence that's going to resolve an issue or tell you how to meet someone. It's often much more complex than that.
So often these TikTok trends, whether they're beijes flags, red flags, you know, the black cattle, labrador energy, or whatever you want to call it, they're just these kind of trends that people gravitate towards, and I guess to some degree can conflate into something that's actually real that they can apply in real life, like quickly.
Yes, and it is.
I guess there's a dopamine hit off that too.
Yeah, absolutely absolutely, But there is there's so much complexity in in relationships. It's not as easy as saying it's just this one thing that's going to make your relationship work, or mean that you're going to meet the love of your life. It's actually very complex, which doesn't tend to lend itself towards TikTok or Instagram or things that are quick and fast and easy to consume.
I guess yeah, Lisa, and I know you have a partner.
If by chance, you found yourself out as a single person again, would you use a dating app?
Well, that's a.
Really good question. I don't know if I would. I would probably prefer to meet someone organically and face to face.
And I think that, you know, through my profession and through also my research, I've had so much opportunity to talk to people and you know, through focus groups interviews about intimacy and relationships, and I think that you know the magic of unpicking someone or understanding someone, whether it's from a relationship perspective, even a friendship, those sorts of skills in the face to face environment, the nuances, the depth that you get is so much deeper and richer.
So I don't think I would.
If you could create a dating app, what do you think it would be like? What would what features would you have on it?
Well, I certainly wouldn't lock up the hotting. So I think that people object to paying for love right critically, people think that love should be organic. Yeah, that's like a primary understanding of what love is, so I wouldn't have the subscription based model built in. That's the key part. I think that there is something around the static imagery
that really throws people off. And I think that people want to see motion, and they want to see how people talk, use their hands, smile, like all those different elements that build up what a person is actually like. So I think the video content is really instrumental, and I do think to some degree that's why people really gravitate to TikTok for example. Right, So I would lose
a lot of the static elements. I think I would provide for you know, greater descriptions around people as well, and they're a bit more around their character, which I think that people don't gravitate towards reading anything anymore these days. Right,
So it's difficult from that sort of component. But the other part is I would try to build in some sort of face to face element because I think it's really difficult to create that initial intimacy within an online environment because there is a gap between who we are from a digital perspective and who we are in real life, and sometimes those things that in real life, you know, the uglier parts of who we are, the things that are not so great are actually the bits and pieces
that end up building up and intimacy.
Do you see a difference the way generations use the app you know, from the twenty year olds to the forty fifty, sixty and beyond, are they using them differently?
Yeah, I would say, for example, dating apps really came into being for gen Y and gen X, right, and certainly gen Y and gen X are probably a generation that are you know, into more of who was hot and who's not. You know, that's the time that Facebook and was really created. While as for example, millennials tend to be more values based and less based on those sort of visual prompts than Gen X and gen why were and as you sort of mentioned, they tend to
engage a little bit less with dating apps. So dating apps have not done a great job with millennials. Millennials are more likely to use social media and other platforms to connect as opposed to dating apps. I think to an older generation, it's a very complex space in terms of entering this space after you've been in a long term relationship is very difficult, and part of it is also around the disposability of it all. So within my
sort of the older cohort of people. They'd say to me, you know, back in the day when I was in my twenties, I might go on a date every couple of months, and you know, I had more of an incentive to kind of make it work. I'd go on the second date even if things weren't utterly perfect, because I knew that there wasn't going to be someone just around the corner. While as now, they're in these platform where they can go on a date every week or
every other day if they want to. So it does increase that element of disposability, which I guess is really difficult to come to terms with.
Here's so much pressure.
I remember we had a friend in the States who was she was doing it, and she would go on coffee dates and things like that, and she was quite let's say, judge, judge, judicious, you know, and she would have these quick dates with them, and I just thought if I was on the end, if I was on the receiving end of that, I know I would be able to feel that and that wouldn't be great for me, you know, if.
That was it would be it would be really tricky.
On the on the flip side of that though, just thinking also I think I know, I mean, I know who you're talking about. And I think those first dates as a female, you're literally checking out. Am I going is this person going to murder me? Like she would she would tell you know, this is where I'm going to be. She'd tell us that I'm going to be here, this is what his name is, you know, and like we would say, do you want us to be in
the same coffee shop as you? Just in case? You know, so there is there's that for women, that's what's in the back of their minds.
Plus it was America.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The safety discussion is a really important one, particularly for
women and more vulnerable groups. And there was a study done by i think the Australian Institute of Criminology a couple of years ago that demonstrated that three out of four people that use dating apps actually have some sort of violent abusive experience with the dating apps, whether it is you know, receiving disgusting messages, images that are unsolicited, down to things that are that are violent face to face, and you know, even people within my focus groups and
my interviews would describe these things, whether it was you know, something you know receiving quite a rude message, or you know, sitting on the bus and suddenly opening up their phone and receiving a dick pick just being like so shocked that suddenly this was the image that they had come
across down to you. You know, I had someone within my focus group who was stalked by someone they had met on a dating app, who had then gone about actually putting together their lives through their Instagram and social media profiles and ended up going to their house. So there is a massive safety issue for dating apps. And dating apps have put in place this voluntary code in Australia in terms of doing better to protect vulnerable groups, but certainly it continues to be a major issue.
I was working on a show, a musical theater show, and this was back in twenty twelve, and one of the guys in the com he was gussing himself up after a show and he came running in. He goes, look, look look at this. This is I'm going to go get I'm getting lucky tonight.
So how do you how do you do that?
And he goes, this is is grinder and he's tell me about the app, the grinder app, you know, and so that was back then, so we've evolved, you know, at well past a decade beyond that. Is there a difference or did you research a difference between those the gay apps and the and the hetero apps.
Yeah, so I did have quite a few people within my focus groups and interviews that were men and we're queer and we're on grind during Scruff and Tinder, and you know, it was very much more transactional and about sex, and I think to the point where Tinder was often more perceived as the relationship app as opposed, for example, Grinder, which is kind of the opposite from a heterosexual perspective in terms of tender is a bit more like the
meat market. But the other thing that came up a lot was, I think, and this is a really difficult thing to talk about, that sexual racism as well. So you know, Asian queer men on dating apps, you know, not being able to find any sort of match because that there was this real stigma around Asian men. So for example, a lot of people back in the day would write things like no Asians just a preference on
their Grinder profile. So there was a real kind of stigmatization and sexual racism within the mix that was very disturbing to some degree, and to read that if Yeah, absolutely, absolutely so. There was a lot of different lenses within the quick space that could be applied, but definitely, you know, it was much more about sex. It was much more transactional than it was from a heterosexual perspective.
Yeah, and that's more. That's more the understanding anyway of those particular apps. From what my understanding is that it is that it's transactional, with a consent that it is transactional.
Yeah, I think I absolutely agree that that's the case, and I think, as you said, there's a consent that it is transactional. But I do think that over time it can also become a burden in terms of, you know, having to participate in this kind of culture of you know, consistent transactional sex and wanting perhaps for more as well, wanting for different narratives within the mix and not having them available because there is very much an idea of what you know, a queer man should be doing at
a certain point as well. Also, it can be Yeah, I think it can be quite can become quite a burden over time, And.
Would it be would it be a real negative tool in one sense for this is across you know, queer, straight, gay, whatever that with the sexual addiction, is that something that the apps would feed that in negative way?
Yeah, So I think it's kind of like any sort of addiction, right, you know, and a bit like you know, the dopamine hits that we were kind of talking about in terms of those easy transactions and just those massive
sort of ego boosts, however they might be. And definitely I think that dating apps can feed into that and can provide that, and you know, there's an easy accessibility, and you can fall into that trap of just consistently just going through a person after person after person, which is as you mentioned, or fine when there's consent and you know everyone's there to have a good time and
all that sort of stuff. But I think at some point in time it also becomes it can become an issue and can become an addiction of sorts as well.
As you said, like the uber eats of yes.
Yeah, yeah, Lisa, what is your what's your go to advice for people who are disclose to giving up and adopting a dog.
Instead get the dog?
No, I think I go to advice would be and I always, I always go back to this. I think that you know, in contemporary culture, there's a real focus around finding the love of your life. Yea, And we live in twenty twenty five, and you know, we think that we've gone past that, but in reality, there is this really prevalent narrative that you haven't made it in life if you haven't met the love of your life.
You know. So people within my research definitely felt like if they weren't in a relationship by the time there were thirty plus, that their life hadn't started, hadn't officially started, right, which is a really odd idea if you think about it. And I think we kind of need to peel back that narrative as to why people feel like they need to find the love of their life, because you can be you can feel worthy, and you can be completely
happy as a single person. And for some people, you know that that's wonderful and great and that's how they should go forth and prosper sort of things. So I do feel like having that pressure that you have to meet someone, we really need to sort of roll that back and say to people you can be happy independently as an individual and living your best life and being worthy.
Yeah, and you meet I meet a lot of people single, super happy, like not interested, which is good. I'm glad when I you know that they feel happy in themselves so they don't feel they need that partner.
That's really good. Do you think about that? And actually there is hope for me yet.
Of me being single. I will be every day every I've had a long time with the love of my life.
Hello, long Lisa.
This was so interesting. It's really as I said, you know, the two of us went total novices to this, so to having your insight was really fascinating. I hope. I hope that's given you some ideas as well, and to sort of think about what you think out there. You know of apps and you know, I don't know, to try the local pub insteading.
Face to face. But you need you need confidence, You need.
A bit of you know, stump up bit of and to be able to go, Okay, what am I actually what.
Am I actually doing?
And am I ready to be rejected you know by this person that I'm about to wander up and say, Hi, that's a long Yeah, it is.
A lot, but I remember I've just had that. I've just had a memory, honey.
And when Lolo was on the apps and the boys so our son and his partner, we're.
All living together.
It's probably during COVID actually, and Lolo was was. They were just on her to get onto the apps, remember that they were just the apps you can get and then guys would come up and then we'd all be crowding around her phone and going which lady is swipe yes or no? And I remember you were getting quite animated at one point, you know, So I guess the only time I've.
Ever seen one like literally that was the one time that time seen.
At one time in band camp.
I've never seen anyone. And even then she hit it because it was her private things. Yes, of course, it was literally five minutes of like wait, wait, let me see it. And I was like, oh oh yeah.
But I do understand the gamification of it. I've just learned that word, by the way, Ali taught me that word. But but you know, are these scores that come up like you've been on here every day like that?
That's what it does.
In my meditation app, It'll it'll say you, you know, did you meditate today?
And yes, I did. Okay, move on otherwise you'll lose your score. Anyway.
Luckily there's no scores on the dating apps.
Oh could you imagine that's we don't want to go there. Yes, I think there's enough. It's fraught with enough. Oh, thank you, Lisa, thank you for your time. And you're smarts and all.
In your work, your study. That's yeah, so good.
Thank you so much for having me.