It just kind of popped out. At least was talking about IVF and I think we were quite connected just in that moment as girlfriends talking to each other, and I kind of said, very casually, Oh, if you haven't needed, sorry that I could do that. You know, we went to lunch to catch up that day. It wasn't something that was in the back of my mind where I was going Today's the day I'm going to offer. It just kind of slipped out.
Hello, and welcome to separate bathrooms.
I would like to acknowledge the gadigal people of your nation on which we are recording this podcast, and paying my respects to elders both past and present. I am not going to be introducing my husband, Cam Daddo because.
He's not here.
It's just me and we're just going to have a girly girl chat again today. You know when you were just so close to someone, a best friend that you share laughs, hurt, pain, everything with, maybe you can share clothes or shoes. Well, these two women have taken the friendship to a level not many of us will ever experience. Sarah Meganson lent her body to her dear friend Lisa Messenger to have the thing she wanted most in the world,
a baby. This is a beautiful story of generosity, kindness, and a long, wild journey, all intimately told through their book The Power of Two, a life changing story of friendship, surrogacy, and true connection. So before I chat with them, just a little info on who they are. Lisa is She's a vibrant, game changing founder and editor in chief of The Collective Hub, a multimedia, cross platform movement to inspire and educate. And Lisa has authored over forty books. She's
an incredible international speaker and a passionate humanitarian. And Sarah is a lifestyle columnist and editor, and she's ghost written or edited more than thirty books. An expert in finance with twenty years experience, she's a regular media commentator on a mission to make money easy, especially for women and kids. They're good mates, They've got a story to tell. So let's get them into the bathroom and find out more.
Please welcome Sarah and Lisa. So, Sarah and Lisa, welcome to the bathroom, the separate bathrooms.
Thank you. We're so delighted to be here.
I'm thrilled to have you both on. Where are you talking to us? From You're up north, an't you.
I'm sunny Gold Coast, Oh yep.
And I am Bangalore inland from Myron Bay. We are an hour and fifteen minutes away from each other geographically.
Oh are you still working with each other? Because you were workmates that's how you met, right.
Yes, we worked on the book together, but that's about where the professional relationship ends these days.
Yeah, of course, Yeah, I think you're slightly above that now. So tell us a little bit firstly about your friendship.
How did it begin with the two of you?
Well, I'll jump in first. I think the great thing is when we reflected back on it when we were writing the book, we realized that the very first time we met, I actually had my eldest she's now fourteen, but she was six months old at the time, and it was my very first meeting with Lisa. I was going to work with her on a property book. I was going to be her editor, and I tried to cancel the meeting because my babysitter fell through and I couldn't bring my baby to the meeting. This is fourteen
years ago. You didn't do such things. You've pretended you didn't have children. So what I called the office to say, Hey, I've got my baby, can we just can we reschedule? Lisa said, no, just bring your baby. That's fine, And that was kind of just not the thing that was done back then. So I very quickly realized that this person was going to be not a normal you know,
it's not going to be a normal workman in. And then when I met Lisa, she was warm and lovely, and that was our very first project we worked on together. Became the first of many. We ended up working on dozens of books. Then Lisa had her magazine. I worked on that, and we just became really good friends over that time as well.
It's a little bit for telling, isn't it that you know, Sarah, you arrived the first meeting with Lisa with a baby in tow. I mean, who would have thought many years later, the journey that the both of you have been on.
It's pretty wild, Allie, and I think that's what we reflect on a lot, and so much of why we've written the book as well. It's much more than a pregnancy book or a surrogacy or a fertility book. It's much more around the themes of you know, friendship and staying open, and you never know people that you know will enter your universe at any given stage in life. And who would have imagined that thirteen years later Sarah would be carrying my baby.
So yes.
In terms about professional relationship, Sarah edited I think probably the majority of the books that I I've written over the years, and I think I'm up to thirty nine or forty or someth me now, and also was one of my top writers for Collective Hub prim magazine, and so we've been in and out of each other's universes professionally, but also have had many many personal intersections which we
can get into as well through the years. So by the time we got to this point, we certainly knew each other very well, although not quite as intimately.
As we young to know each other, no doubt, no doubt.
I love.
I was reading a bit of your book, just reminding myself this morning, the prologue. I just love how it begins. You say, Oh, you're right if you think this is a fluffy, feel good book about having a baby, We're sorry to disappoint. Fourteen years of friendship, eight years of trying, eighteen rounds of IVF one baby boy. I just think that sets you up for this incredible journey that the both of you have been on. How did the conversation first come up around surrogacy?
It was it well, brob me jumping and out. Sarah and I are very much in each other's hands, and her body has been my body, so we can probably
each answer everything, so I'll jump into this one. So the conversation first came up in twenty eighteen and Sarah and I were sitting in a rooftop cafe on top of the Paramount Hotel in Surrey Hills, having lunch, as we did from time to time, and I was a couple of rounds into my IBF journey and Sarah just happened to mention, which is pretty wild, you know, if you're ever interested in surrogacy, like, I'd be kind of happy to carry a baby for you. And I was like, wow,
who you know? I already knew she was all kinds of amazing, but I was like, who actually says something like that? So it was amazing, And but I think we all need to come at things, you know, when we're ready. And it was actually another four years that passed until such time as we had the conversation again, and by then I was kind of really really ready and had, you know, experienced so many different avenues and
paths to trying to get pregnant myself. And I feel like sometimes in life it's not like we just landed on, Hey, how are you going today? You want to carry my baby? Although finally the conversation was a little like that, but I mean it happened. It took eight years really of me trying to for pregnant naturally, adopt a child, having a miscarriage, going through two rounds of IBF with donor sperm, meeting my current partner, going through a further fourteen rounds
of IVF with him and Chill. I was at a point where I was like, you know, that conversation you had four years ago, I'm kind of ready for it now. So yeah, it was a lot and pretty extraordinary, So I can jump in to that piece perhaps.
Yeah. I think on that day when I offered it, I wasn't being very thoughtful or intentional, which is an odd thing to say when you're offering something so massive, but I it just kind of popped out. LIST was talking about IVF, and I think we were quite connected just in that moment as girlfriends talking to each other, and I kind of said, very casually, Oh, if you ever need a surrogate, I could do that. And it was a genuine offer, but it wasn't you know, we
went to lunch to catch up that day. It wasn't something that was in the back of my mind where I was going, Today's the day I'm going to offer. It just kind of slipped out and then straight away Lisa was like, Oh, that's so kind, but you know, I don't think I'm there yet, and we I kind of just punched it. From then it was like a It was a little conversation and then we didn't talk about it again for four years.
And at that point, Sarah, how many you have three beautiful children? How many kids did you had? I did had when you offered to be Sarah get it that.
I'd had all of my kids and I'd had a miscarriage, so I'd had my three children, and then I'd had an accidental pregnancy that ended in miscarriage. And I think because of that that really connected me even more to this unfairness. I guess with women who want to have a baby and can't and I have my three beautiful, healthy, amazing children. And here was my friend Lisa who desperately wanted a child and the odds were stacked against her.
So that definitely kind of was probably the back of my mind and prompted that question to pop out.
It never ceases to amaze me the the how many women you know, this idea that you can just get pregnant and you know, off you go. And some women are like that, of course, but the amount of women I don't know anyone who actually hasn't probably been trying to get pregnant, had a miscarriage, has had a struggle. It's not as easy as we all as the movies kind of make us believe it to be.
Oh, it's actually wild, I feel like. And that's part of the reason, well, a large part of the reason that we've written such a personal book is to really share with people because I think we're told, you know, all through our twenties, be careful, don't get pregnant, and yeah, I think so we're all kind of got the fear of you know, everything in us about oh my gosh,
I did not do this. And then I feel like there needs to be a lot more education because since we've started sharing our story well before the book was even an idea really, and we started chatting to people about it. The amount of people, I mean everyone really either has been through some kind of fatility struggle themselves
or absolutely know someone who has. And I think what would happen was people would come up to me or sayah, and we'd share a little bit of our story, like one on one with someone, and inever too, there would be tears from them and us, and we just realized that, oh my gosh. You know, Sarah and I are writers. That is our language, that's how we process, that's how we kind of put things out into the world. And so we just thought, Okay, let's do this, and we
didn't realize just how personal we would get. But it is all in there, and I think, or we think and hope that it will impact and help so many people.
Yeah, I'm sure it will.
Lisa eighteen rounds of IVF. That is, I can't imagine the toll because it's people don't understand. It's a physical toll as well, with the hormone injections, everything that you go through in order to attempt that IVF process. How though emotionally and mentally did you deal with that, because that is that is a rollercoaster that is so wild and so challenging to be on.
Yeah, thank you. I feel like I've almost somehow desensitized myself from it now mentalized it, but definitely writing a book relived every moment. And then we recorded the audiobook and I just was crying, going kind of like empathy
and compassion for myself going through all of that. I think mindset is one of the biggest pieces because and I've been writing books for twenty years actually this month ironically in a way, and a lot of them have been around mindset and overcoming adversity and positive psychology and you know, so I've been teaching myself and doing a lot of therapy for years and years and years. I did sixteen rounds of IVF. Myself said it two rounds.
It does take a massive toll emotionally, physically, and financially, and I think it's probably worth unpacking those a little bit, either for people in the trenches or for people who don't really understand the magnitude of it so emotionally, because there are so many pieces around that. I think as an innate problem solver and someone who just has had
my own business for twenty three years. I see something and I'm like, well, yeah, I'll you know, if that door doesn't open, I'll do that, or if I can't do that, I'll do that. So I'm so used to doing that, but when it's your body and it's sort of largely beyond your control, emotionally, it takes a real toll because a you know, firstly, I was petrified of needles when I started this, and I've worked out I've
injected myself something like four hundred and eighty times. So emotionally, it's a lot jumping on and off planes and stages and things. So then you're flying around with needles and medications that need to be kept on ice and so I need from doctors, so and so emotionally, I was doing a lot of a solo in hotel rooms. The medications you need to take for me, protocols are slightly different for everyone. But twice the day every day for
sort of sometimes ten days. Now that meant you can choose any time eight am and apm ten am ten pm. But because it goes for ten days, I might be on a stage or you know, on a something something, so I'm you know, inhaling things or injecting myself in different bathrooms. Emotionally also, which jumps into the physicality of it. I am someone from a mindset perspective who needs to train, you know, like I move my body for my mindset
as much as for my body. And every single time you put an embryo in, you not meantor so my clinic said, train or do any exercise or get your heart rate up for two weeks after So sixteen times, for two weeks at a time, thirty two weeks, I've not been able to move my body. And then emotionally and physically, it's like the two week waiting period of you know, they put the embryo in, and then it's like,
am I going to get pregnant? So sixteen times I heard the words not this time, You're not pregnant this time. So there's a lot of emotional and physical and financially IVF alone in Australia costs between generally for US anyway, ten to twelve thousand dollars per round per round, and plus all of the other everything else that goes around that. I mean, I had several polyps removed and other operations
and things throughout. Plus I saw, in conjunction with the IVF, a whole lot of different natural paths and blah blah blah blah blah. So we are very fortunate, and I do not take it lightly that we are in a financial position that we could do this. However, it has come with massive sacrifices for both my partner Stephen and I. We sold our family home to fund it, and we're still in a pretty big hole financially. Luckily we know how to make money, but it took a big toll
there as well. But I did meet someone a couple of weeks ago who said to me that she and her husband saved up for ten years to do one round of IBF. So I really don't take it lightly. We've been extraordinarily fortunate that we've been able to do that,
and I'll just leave you with this. Stephen did say to me at one point, you know, if we want a baby and that is the end result, then it doesn't matter if it costs a dollar or a million dollars, and it certainly costs He certainly costs the latter, and Little Kgo is at work as we speak making the money back but I mean, I think it's really important for anyone, Like if there's something you want more than almost anything on the planet, then you know, you sacrifice anything.
Yeah, it's right.
Yeah, I don't know if there's anything. I mean, I wanted to be a mom from the age of five, so I would have been doing anything I could have possibly have done. Sarah, for you, what's been some of the most challenging experiences. We'll get to the rewarding experiences as well, but what was the challenging experiences for you and being the surrogate for Hugo and Lisa.
I mean, I think the physicality of it was really different because I had my children when I was in my I was twenty eight when I had my first daughter, and in my early thirties when I had my next children. So I found being pregnant at forty one was a whole new experience. The physicality of it that, you know, my body was older and I now had three children. I kind of underestimated just how much energy it would take to be working full time and have three kids
and be pregnant. But all of that was, you know, in every step of it. You know, at the very beginning when I sat with my husband and said I'd like to do this. We kind of ran through all of those scenarios. We were like, what if, what if this happens? What if that happens? What if you His big kind of concerns at the beginning, where what if you get sick? What if something happens to you? The law is really clear in Australia that the mother's kind
of life is always the first priority. So that gave him some peace of mind because he was like, what if something happens and our kids end up without a mother? And I said, well, you were never worried when I was pregnant with them that I was going to suddenly die in childbirth.
I think, so why you can had a bit of a scare though, like twenty six, twenty seven weeks though, didn't you?
We did? We did, We had had a moment, but we I think we ran through all of those things, like what happens if I get sick? What happens if I'm I have a friend who had a you know, a cervical stitch at nineteen weeks and on bed rest for the rest of our pregnancy. So we talked about all of those scenarios and what happens if and when we were doing that, there was nothing that we came
to that we decided, oh that's a deal breaker. Like there was no scenario, no outcome that was so bad that we went, oh, well, we can't risk that, so we're going to have to pull out. Like every scenario that we came up with, there was a solution to it, like if I get sick, then I'll take some time off work. If I need support, we'll have to get the support. Like we just kind of worked through it all because I make decisions like this, this is obviously
really big one. But the way I live my life is to always think in rocking chair moments, and when I'm eighty and I'm on my rocking chair, or maybe not even eighty, maybe I did, but when I'm on my rocking chair and looking back at my life, you know, what are the moments that are going to stand out and that I'm really grateful for And in the adventures I had, in the times I said yes, And this was definitely one of those, And there was no there was no negative outcome that was so big that it
was enough to say no.
Yeah, beautiful, and your husband was besides your you know, the concern for your health? Was there ever that concern that I mean, this is probably a really common question that a lot of mums or other women might ask that you know, you would become so attached to Hugo that you wouldn't want to then hand him to Lisa, Like was that? I mean, how do you work with that mindset?
I guess you.
I guess you were already in it from the moment you offered.
You offered yourself.
And I think that is probably the most common question I get asked, And especially when I was pregnant, when I would say to people it's not my baby, it's my friend's baby. People would say, oh my god. While I was like heavily pregnant. They would say, what if you can't hand him over? And I'd be like, well, it's now wait here. But really I knew going into it, and I think a lot of you know, some of
my friends said to me like, I just couldn't. I just know that I couldn't do it, And I'm like, that's great, you know you should never be yes, yeah, But for me, I was really clear. We had great boundaries from the beginning, and my husband actually suggested from the beginning, he said, I won't come to the scans and appointments because he said, the only time I've ever done that in the past was for our children, and I don't know how I'll react being there seeing a
baby growing inside your tummy and it's not ours. So let's just put that boundary in place. That was fantastic and really helpful. He also suggested, let's call it your pregnancy, but Lisa's baby, and that became a really great boundary from the beginning too. So I would come home from the obstetrician and say, hey, Lisa's baby's doing really well. It's sixteen weeks. You know, we saw X y Z today And that kind of words are so important, and
that language really helped us have really clear boundaries. And I also think the fact that we explained everything to our kids, we kept them so involved in all of it, meant there was no secrets. There was no opportunity for anything to fester or to you know, to get over.
We were just really open and communicating so constantly that there was no there was no time that I was sitting there secretly pining, going, oh Christmas, I wish we had another little baby under the tree with us, because I knew the goal was to get Lisa that baby, you know that that was what we were focused on. So it was pretty clear bound you and I didn't have to hand him over Lisa.
Card Lisa, were you there for every single scan?
Every single scan? Yes, And it was the most you know, I think we have an amazing way of you know, forgetting about hardships because I was seeing those nine months or whatever it was together. We're just the most magical, magical moments. And Sarah and I we would laugh and we still do it. We would be either on a FaceTime you know, when we were I was always physically at the scans, but otherwise every single day we're the facetiming on dming on Instagram or texting or calling and
often multiple things simultaneously. But yeah, I very much treated it as my pregnancy, and so every single scan I was say, what was beautiful and amazing about that is And it's the weirdest thing, but all of those years of trying to get pregnant, I had never let myself go beyond what would happen when they said you're pregnant, And so it was amazing having like the best girlfriend in the room with obstitrition because between her and doctor Drew, they would explain to me because I was like, oh
my gosh, what now, what happens now? I would be like, well, this is what we do because I know it sounds kind of wild wanting to be a month for so long, but I just didn't know what happened beyond the moment when they were like, you're pregnant. So Sarah really was incredible having been there three times. Or she'd be like,
this is what we're doing now. So yeah, it was really I can't even explain how much fun, like say, the little heartbeat together or you know, all of the things that we did together through that time was just so beautiful.
And of course, I mean the impact on your friendship you can't put you I don't know if there's any words you can put to that is there is there any words you can put to what that did to a friendship that you know there you are sharing the most miraculous thing that you can probably share.
I'm not sure if I've ever felt as close to anyone in my life or as grateful and just it was just fun. It was like all of the previous years of heartache and hardship and lost just almost disintegrated, and that nine months kind of trumped everything and the time since. I mean, it's actually beautiful, you know, it's just it's all, it's all amazing.
What can you walk us through?
So Okay, So you go into labor, Sarah, and you're pretty sure it's labor. I know you were. You had sort of a bit of an oas this labor you know earlier on, but it wasn't.
It was a kidney infection.
But what.
You go into labor? What's your steps? Can you walk us through?
Yes, I had I've obviously I've done it three times before, so I was pretty sure when I was in labor. And the false start you're talking about was when I had a kidney infection at twenty seven weeks and I knew I wasn't in labor, but it really hurts, and I was like, I've got this excruciating pain, but it's
not coming from the right place. When I knew I was in labor, it was quite surreal because I woke up at midnight, it was exactly midnight, and I felt a click and I felt a gush of water Anyone who's ever had a water break moment knows what that's like. I'd always wanted one of those movie moments where you're like at the shops and you have a big gush and it's all crazy and everyone's like, oh my god. I always wanted one of them. I'm so dramatic, but
I never had one. So this was just a little moment in the middle of the night, and I lay there for a couple of minutes, going is this happening? Because it wasn't like previous times where I just nudged my husband and say let's go. This time, I was like, so, we have to call my mum to come over and watch my kids. We have to call the obstitucian to let him know to come. We have to call his parents to let them know they're about to become parents. So I kind of lay there for a minute, going
is it happening? And then a contraction started and I went, oh, yep, it's happening. So then everything started. From that point. That was midnight, and Lisa caught him at three point thirty eight, so it was less than four hours from that moment to him arriving.
So fast.
She's fast, and we knew we were always prepared. Sarah, yeah, said when it's onlent and silent. So stupid, right, even though we only live like an hour and fifteen away from Sarah and similar to the hospital we came up a week before. He was juicer that we want very close, close enough for me. But the funny thing is we did like a stretch and sweep on the Wednesday, which is, you know, meant to sort of try and induce labor,
and then nothing. And so every night Tuesday night, Wednesday night, Thursday night, I packed and unpacked and I was like so ready and hypervigila.
Yeah.
By Friday, we're Stephen and I were saying the QT. And by Friday we were like, okay, let's all have Sarah, David and the three kids and let's just have a beautiful weekend, buy the pool. Clearly, hugoes not ready to make his presence know one, into the world, and we were going to have it. We're going to be induced
the following Tuesday. So Friday night I didn't pack and I was just like very kind of you know, oh well, and then midnight or just after, we get the call from David and he's he's a radio announcer, so in the radio voice that was like, this is the call you've been waiting for God your nary to be yes, Oh my god, this this is it. And so we just raced. But it all happened really fast, and so
it was the most beautiful, amazing thing. And also there were some very comical moments because Sarah had never had I mean, she's like some kind of superhero in so many ways, but she never had a what are they called the thing the jupy.
Durl no I.
Labor too fast.
Yeah, So she never had an api durol. And then this time we were in the shower and so I was like, I think I might have an ampi dural this time. So she had one, but it didn't kick in until about I don't know, maybe forty minutes or something after Hugo was born. So she was like we were like lying opposite her with Hugo on our chests and says, leg kept falling off the bed. She had control and she kept me like can you pick up my legs? Like picking her leg backing off onto the bed.
And the comical thing is someone had grabbed one of our phones, thank goodness, and been taken taking all the photos.
And there is a.
Photo of me with my hand on Sarah's shoulder because there's a clock above the bed at three point thirty four am. And then Hugo was born at three thirty eight am. So it happened. She was like he's coming, and Doctor Drew constituition was outside eating cheese and biscuits, and it was like on and again I thought, oh, I'll you know, I've got my beautiful bikini on. I'm gonna, you know, wash my hands. I'm gonna look hot and amazing. And then it was a broom and like no hand watching.
I'm still in some woolen jumper and Doctor Drew is like biscuits coming out of He's like cat. And then there was my baby, my oh gosh, yeah, oh how I mean?
And then so that moment where he lays on your Lisa, What was that like for you?
You can't I get so emotional because it's like, oh, so many things, because I think Ali I had this thought that I don't know what it's from the movies or something, that he would be ripped away from me and like taken into another room to be like weighed and washed and something and so, but literally I was the first person to hold him and the only person
to hold him. And then we had very specifically said can we have a sofa bed opposite Sarah's bed so we could lie down and I could have the same experience as I would if I had have birthed him. And yeah, no one took him away. He came straight and lay on my chest and it's like, oh, I just I can't even Yeah, like the most amazing thing. And then as soon as you know, we'd had a little cuddle and Sayah had been sticked up, I took Hugo over and put him on stairs chest and just
like that moment together it was just so beautiful. And for Stephen and he's always a bit like, hey, how about me, because I'd be like, in a way, Sarah, I like got so much closer throughout that whole time than Stephen, and I sure, and I couldn't wait to run over there and be like look at her baby.
Yeah, I know you.
I know. Did Stephen cut the cord? Did he do that?
He did cut the court? Yeah, And he was really squeamish about that. He was almost like why do I get that job?
But he.
Astermined that Hugo, you know, come to me first, so he did cut the cord. And the funny thing is Ali the last few days he goes his what's today's state? He's fifteen months in two days as we're recording this, and he's just outed like being really fascinated about bodily body types or body bits, and I just started pointing to my belly button and his belly button like literally two days ago. So I keep saying, you know, that's where Daddy cut you away from. Sarah.
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty wild, Sarah.
For you, how has it been watching your dear friend with Hugo, you know, knowing that this is the gift that you've given to Lisa and Steven.
Yeah, I mean it's so interesting. The journey has been incredible from the beginning, and the main feeling for me when he was born was relief because I so wanted to be the piece of the puzzle that helped them get this beautiful baby that they'd been longing for. And I can remember the feeling when he was out was
just like absolute relief flooded me. The double of I never have to give birth again and they have their beautiful baby, and it was like it was like a literal and you know, hypothetical, like passing of the bat, like I'd done my job and now here you go. And I think a lot of women can resonate with this idea that a pregnancy feels like you're coming to a finish line. And you give birth and then you have a baby, it like starts again. This whole new
world starts again. And it's been amazing from Afar watching them, you know, just sink into parenthood and they're both amazing parents, so loving and doting, and he is just an adorable little man, and my kids get along really well with him. It's beautiful to kind of just see their relationship grow as well. They call him their brotheren, their brother cousin, and it's really nice to have that beautiful young energy around again. I think I'm in such a different phase
of parenting. You know, my kids are teenagers and pre teenagers and hugoes one and running around. Yeah, it's a whole different ballgame.
And there's so many dualities which has been fascinating, like which so many people wouldn't think about. But just a few little things like when Sarah was carrying Hugo, she was obviously pregnant, so people would be like, oh my gosh, you're pregnant. Congratulations, So she was constantly having to say, oh, yes,
but it's not my baby. And then I would say because I always felt like I was pregnant, so I'd be like, oh my gosh, I'm seven months pregnant and people would be like, wow, you really and then things around the bath. Like Sarah said, I was able finally to get like my fittest, strongest, healthiest self ready for when the baton was passed, so that be, you know, my strongest version of me for Hugo. So where Sarah could actually have the baby and then be like, well
I was going to say relaxed. Yeah right, yeah, I'm so open, but like this, Yeah, there's so many different sort of things going on all the time which people often wouldn't necessarily consider.
Yeah, I guess the one thing that you probably were able to do, Sarah was actually go home and sleep, which is probably Lisa, you didn't not well, actually you're.
Born, Sarah. That was the plan, and she said to her kids like, Okay, mom was going to take some time off, but kids don't really like mom. I want this, mom, I've worked out quite how she I.
In my head, I thought my work was really amazing and gave me six weeks of leave to recover. And in my head, I thought six weeks, I'm like not going to know myself. Six weeks off with no baby, I'm just going to relax, and like, honestly, what was I thinking. I was in a hormoneer I don't know, mental phase, but I ended up. I think out of that six weeks, I had one day where I didn't have a medical appointment or my kids weren't sick. I had one day of rest. No, that is the plight
of a working farm. I was delusional. I think it was going to be any.
I was spending quite a lot of time together whenever we could through that time as well, Like I think when we left the hospital, because we had two rooms next to each other for four days, so it was like yeah, beautiful, big loving, and we left, it was a bit like no. So like three days later, I think it's three days later, Sarah, David and the kids came down, and yeah, we were a bit inseparable as much as possible through that time.
If it's if it's okay, to ask, did you how did you work the did you breast? Did you use breast milk Lisa, or did you go straight to formula or no?
And it's fine to ask, and it's fascinating.
So I was told that there is a protocol that you can use to induce breast milk, even though I've not carried my own baby.
But what that would entail was something like going on the pill for like four months in the Leader, which just seemed so wildly ironic for me that I'd spent all this time off the pill trying to get pregnant, and then on top of that, I'd also have to go on another hormone and Alie, to be honest, after eight years of hormones and pumping myself full of whatever.
Your body didn't know it was doing that. Yeah, but the.
Wild thing is and nature versus nurture, nature versus nature, whatever whatever you want to call it. But my left breast actually started producing milk. So I think it's because I always carry Hugh. His head was always on the left side of me from the get go. That's just the way that I carried him, and I think my breast must have been like, Okay, it's on. It's a little munch a yere who wants to lunch. So that
was pretty wild. So I did put him on my boob a little bit, but it just I don't know, I just well, Also there's a bit of a selfish reason around this. Stephen doesn't need a lot of sleep, and he's like for ours sleep at night, and I love my sleep. So putting him on a bottle also meant that Stephen, God love him, was able to do the majority of the night feeds. So yeah, so we pretty much went to bottle.
So is that an actual So without taking any hormones, your body started to create breast milk. Yeah, yeah, that is amazing.
It's amazing.
Women's bodies are incredible, and I think.
It's a little bit of a medical phenomena. And I feel quite proud because I remember when Meya Fried when interviewed Sarah and I early on on her podcast, and she was like can you do this? And then she was like, oh, well, of course you'll be able to, Like, you know, because I'm like the groot over a cheaber. I always find a way to do it right. I'm proud when you know, never for a moment thinking my body, would she do it? I was like, huh loo, can
we go? I think you're right though. It is extraordinary how connected I felt to my pregnancy and Sarah and I are very been on languaging as you might have noticed, but throughout and it is extraordinary how in sync our bodies were at various times, like crazy kind of stuff would happen. So whilst I was surprised, I also wasn't surprised in a way.
Yeah, they're finding out more and more about breast milk. I was reading something the other day how the antibodies in breast milk actually adjust to the babies. If the baby is ill, the antibodies will actually adjust in order to give the right antibodies to that baby as they're to help them heal whatever they're if they're you know, some kind of illn.
I mean, it's extraordinary. You can see the different color actually in women who I've never had any luck expressing, but women who express the color of the milk changes. It changes depending on the kids, if they're sick, it changes as they get older and the nutrients they need a different It is absolutely incredible. Our bodies are amazing And the flip side of that was my milk actually came in. I did everything I could to avoid it.
I took medication and I strapped myself. And about five days after he was born, it came in in a big way, and I called the obstetrician and I was like, what do I do because I've been so much pain. You know, anyone that's done it knows they just fill up and it's rock hard. And he said, do not touch them, do not get any hot water on them. And I was like, are you kidding me? All I want to do is go have a shower and just like relieve the pain. And he said, no, you can't
touch them. You can't stimulate them at all because that will just put just more milk, because that's what you know, what happens with the baby. So I had to wear like a double sportspra for about two weeks to just strap.
It all the ground hole.
It is incredible. Two weeks later it had all just settled down and gone away, just absorbed back into your body, Like what an incredible.
She did try to because we were going to use the colostrum, So say I did try and.
Express that never have luck with expressing.
Did I actually yeah, but we decided to not go any further than that sort of you know, draw the laundary around all of that kind of thing.
So at what point do you decide, Okay, this is a book? Was this pre even getting pregnant Sarah, or was it like what did you both decide this is.
I mean, not before getting pregnant, but certainly from really early. Lisa and I both process our worlds through writing. I've always been a writer and a journalist, so really early in the pregnancy, I was journaling the thoughts and feelings around it. And the more the more that we shared, the more that people kind of reached out, and the more that we realized there was a story in it. And Lisa, Lisa is always an open book with her life.
She's written lots of books about different parts of her life. So we kind of quite early in the pregnancy thought that there was an idea here, but we then kind of parked it a little bit while we focused on the pregnancy tours. And when I was almost due with him was when we really kind of solidified it and went, let's let's do something with this.
Yeah, and there's a few pieces around that. Yes, my life has been quite literally an open books. Something happens, you know, I share about it, and you share the lessons lanned and help people to apply it to their own lives. And Stephen is extraordinarily on me private, Sarah, David and I lead relatively public lives in a way, but Stephen is, you know, extremely private and never wants
to share anything about anything. And so but it was actually him who said you should do this, or you should start sharing, because he realized early on the impact it was having on people and just how much we could really help people. It's funny we did a we signed a deal a month before Hugo.
Was born a week actually it was a week before.
Yeah, and then but we didn't so that was July twenty twenty three. He was born on the twenty second of July, and we didn't have to deliver the manuscript until February. And it's funny because by then I had Hugo for quite a long time, and I started going, oh, do I really want to share this, like I'm having such a beautiful time. Part of we just forget like all of this eight years prior and everything, But it
was such a beautiful thing writing it together. Sarah and I sat opposite each other and in a in a shared Google document, and we just tiptoed off each other the whole time. And it was so beautiful. And yeah, I think it's going to help so many people. I did say I'd never write I've written two very very very personal books before, and I swear I would never
write another personal book. I think it must help so many people, so I'm happy to put it out there, and also for you though, you know, like we were very conscious that, you know, are we sharing too much? Is this the right thing to do by him? But I think it's beautiful that his journey is documented.
Oh I mean, imagine when he's out of an age where he can read that book and know what you went through because you know the obviously, yeah, details get fuzy fuzzy, but of course you've put so much into the book and to be able to read that about how desperately wanted this little boy is and was you know, is such a treat such a treat for him? I'm sure is there something that you found Is there sort of advice for people in the sense of things not to say to people going.
Through your experience?
I'm sure you've had lots of people weigh in on it. Is there something that you would rather people not say to either of you?
Yeah. In fact, we share almost a chapter I think Sarah in the Book of Experiences around what not to say, and I think people are well meaning for the most part. And it's also what's become very much. You know, our normal isn't normal for everyone, and I think people are quite fascinated. And also if we choose to share this part of our lives, then you know, we are also
opening ourselves up for lines of questioning. There are a lot of things around Well, the one thing that I got asked every single time, which I won't share what the answer is on here, but every single time when I said, you know, my friend is carrying my baby,
people would be like, oh, is it your egg? Like every single time, which was really jarring because I was like, whoa, So that kind of Yeah, other things I would say around IVF, for sure, everyone has an opinion and it's people will say things like, oh, well, just relax more, or well, of course you can't get pregnant, look at your lifestyle. But I mean that lifestyle fair enough and probably right to a certain degree. But my lifestyle of
on or off plane speaking. I get paid a lot of money to speak, and I was like, something's going to fund this, IVF, It's not gonna So I think what I always say is, you know, offer, I'm open to feedback from people with actual experience in an area, but actually a lot of it isn't helpful, Like have you tried this? Yeah, I've tried that probably seventy times. Thank you. So yeah, I think there's a lot.
Yeah, of course.
I think Least is right in that most people are well intentioned, and also we're very clunky when trying to make people feel better, and we don't mean to be, so we say clunky things sometimes. And I had this experience when my dad died and lots of people were trying to be well meaning. So I always took their intentions and the kindness with what they were trying to say. But when people say things that start with at least,
almost anything that comes after that is really diminishing. At least he's out of pain now, or at least he got to be in his or he was seventy nine. At least he made it to seventy nine. When I had a miscarriage. You know, people would say, oh, at least you've got other children. When someone said at least you don't have to stay up all night and change poe nappies, and I was like, oh, but I really
wanted to exactly, I really wanted the nappies. And people are really well intentioned, they're trying to make you feel better, but what you really want in those moments is for just someone to say, you know, are you okay? And what can I do for you? Do you need anything? Can I give you a hug? Can I drop a full asagnya? You just want people to show up.
And actually we went one layer deeper in the book because it's something ale. It's a great question. Sarah and I really reflected on it and part of what we came up with because our dad's actually died, which we talk about in the book, that we've had lots of
shared experiences. They died three months apart to the day, and so we went, you know, we kind of unpacked what had happened around that as well, and what we decided for both of us and so many people around us was sometimes just do the thing like don't ask or you know, saying every day, are you okay? Are you okay? It's kind of like, yep, no, I'm not okay, But like so sometimes just drop the lasign your over or just do the thing take.
And it's like when someone says what do you need in that moment, you don't know you need.
You're so deep in grief and.
It becomes another thing. Yes, I actually just had one of my best girlfriends just lost her mum recently and it was horrible and very fast and when it happened, I just showed up literally in Melbourne. I just turned up when she needed me. But also the worst thing in those moments can be someone saying what do you need? How can I help? Because you were in the worst phase of your life and now you're having to show
up for someone else. So what you really want from someone is not let me know what you need from me. You just need simple answers. Do you want a lasagna or a spark ll like, what do you want for dinner tomorrow? Or how can I help with your kids? But I'm available Saturday? Do you want me to come and do your laundry for you or take the kids out? Like, just give people some just show up with support, because if the person doesn't want it, they'll just write back
and say thank you so much. I'm all good for this weekend, but I appreciate you, and it will register that you've offered it, and they'll reach out if they need it. But we can accidentally kind of be add to people stuff. It was just like I felt like I had all these tabs open, a really beautiful well meeting friends who would check in, how's your dad going. I'd be like, he's still sick, still dying, We're still
at the hospital every day. And it built up in my head as all these people I had to reply to and you get to a point where you just abandon it. But you know, all of those people were really trying to be helpful and support me and love bomb me, but instead it can sometimes feel like another burden to carry. So you know, just showing up for people can be as simple as saying I'm thinking about you, and you know, reducing your burden.
I love that. That's great advice.
Well, you certainly showed up for Lisa, and Lisa, you're clearly showing up for Hugo, your beautiful little one. I just wanted to ask one more question, how do you how do you describe each other in one word? What would be one word to describe each other with?
Well, Sarah, I'm just going to say.
Angel, Lisa, I would say to enacious, Yes, this literally never gives up in any respect.
Ah. That's incredible.
Lisa and Sarah, thank you so much for your time. The book is called The Power of Two, a life changing story of friendship, surrogacy, and true connection. What an incredible story. It's a beautiful book. And as you say, it's what's and all. It's a hell of a journey that you've been on and but congratulations, you're here. You've done it, and baby Hugo is thriving, and so congratulations, thank.
You, thank you, thank you so much for having us.
Sally, Yeah, our pleasure.