We joke about this.
We kind of had an affair for about three years until I fell in love and I was like, I can't do that anymore.
It's either all or nothing.
I think we always had crazy chemistry, and we like to do things, and I think we love a challenge, and it was almost like each other was a challenged I had never met anyone where I'd had such chemistry as I did with Mike.
Hello, and welcome to separate bathrooms. We would like to acknowledge the Gadigor people of the or nation that we record this podcast on today and give respect to their elders, both past and present. My name's Cam Dado.
I'm Ali Dado.
How are you feeling, sweetheart.
I am under the weather. I'm okay, but just sort of muddling.
Through a bit of a cold.
Yes, whah yeah, as the Irish or the Gaelic say, you are with.
A cold, correct, which is a lovely way to put it.
It is very different to go when you see somebody, you go, how are you? I'm sick. I am sick. I am sick, I'm with.
I am with sick, I am with Cameron. I am with sick.
You are not. I am no, you're not. You are with sick. Yeah, it means you can create a little distance between us. Sure, sure, choose not to be with sick anymore?
Yeah, I would like to choose that. Like now, thanks very much.
Who are we talking today?
We are talking to the fabulous layol Stone and her amazing husband, Mike. Now I believe it is a first time podcast for Mike.
Laye's done a lot.
Actually, we're popping his podcast Cherry.
Yeah.
In fact, Lae is a podcaster as well, amongst many other things, she's an Australian speaker. She's an educator and an author Our pass quite a line in our in our Passions. Currently she's actually educating parents on how to talk to their teenagers around sex. But she's been a dueler. She's then, she's talked to kids about sex in high schools. She's a mum, she's just fat, She's I can't wait to talk to her about her whole life history.
Excellent. I'm I'm sure Mike fits in quite well.
Oh, no doubt. They've got a great relationship.
Yeah, and he would have absorbed a bunch of things yeah from her, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, Okay, Well, let's welcome Lee and Mike Stone to the bathroom. Hey, Lee and Mike, welcome to separate bathrooms.
Thanks for having us.
We have disinfected the bathroom for you so you won't catch what I've got in case you're worried.
You'll catch what she's putting down.
That's right.
Hey, guys, tell us about your story. How did you meet, proposal, how long you have been married, all that sort of stuff, just so just so we can get some context around Lael Stone and Mike Goal who we don't understand Mike, why you didn't or Lao, why you didn't take Mike's name because you would have been a girl Stone?
Yeah, yes, true, yeah, perfect.
I can understand why.
We actually we actually met.
We went to the same school and it was our It was my year twelve media teacher that set us up, which is something that would just not happen these days. But Mike was really good friends with my year twelve media teacher, so he was three years above me at school, and when I was in year twelve doing media, Mike used to come back and hang out with a lovely Chrissy and then well, I don't know you, it's your story. You said that one day you saw me and said,
who's that girl? And do you reckon you could get her number for me?
A bit like that, yeah, yeah.
And so then the teacher asked me, oh, do you mind if I give your number to my friend Mike, And I was like, oh yeah, and so she passed on my number, and then I think we went out on one date we did, which ended up being cup Day because I remember that because we went put a bet on the hall and we realized that we actually had the same birthday, and so then we completely freaked
out that we had the same birthday. And then I went away and traveled for a few years, and then I came back and I bumped into the same teacher again down in Collingwood in Victoria, and she was still friends with Mike, and I gave her my number and she saw Mike and said, I bumped into.
Lael and then he rang me three years later, and then it kind of happened from there.
So rang me three years later. So when you were the age that he was when you met.
Yeah, and then we kind of, I mean we joke about this. We kind of had an affair for about three years because well, I'll tell this so Mike was not keen on settling down being serious, so you know, we were kind of you know, we'd catch up every month or so, we'd have a coffee and you know, hang out. And we did that for about three years until I fell in love and I was like, I can't do that anymore. It's either all or nothing. And then finally Mike's like, all right, let's do it, and
then I reckon. A few months later we moved Yeah, we moved in together, and then six months later we were pregnant with our son. So we're so young, and then we didn't get married until a few years after.
We let me guess three years later.
Perfect number, Yeah, year and a half.
So when you visit Crowny Casino in Melbourne, you put three on the rulette reel.
Yeah or eighteen? Yeah?
You go.
So what is it do you feel, Lale that kept drawing you back to Mike? What was it about about him?
I think we always had crazy chemistry. I mean, we we're both aries.
I don't know if anyone's into astrology or not, we're both like fiery aries.
We like action, we like to do things, and I think we love a challenge and it was almost like each other was a challenge, would you say, story.
I don't know.
I had never met anyone where I'd had such chemistry as I did with Mike, and I think we both just moved fast. We both just understood each other, and I don't know, we just always kept coming back to each other, especially in those early years. So yeah, it was inevitable. And I mean I look back now and think, I'm sure all our friends and family thought we were crazy. Like, you know, I was twenty four when I got pregnant.
We was just so young. Yeah, you know, we didn't own a single thing that we were both running our own businesses. It was all a bit nuts, but we were like, hey, let's just have a baby and see what happens.
And we like it work. Yeah, we'll make it work.
I think our relationship has always been let's just jump in and we'll figure it out.
We've never planned in our lives.
Have we been giving a little bit too much?
So? How long? How long?
Now?
How long ago was that that you've set up?
Twenty four so we've been before, so I think maybe, yeah, twenty four to twenty five, I don't know, twenty six years ago, really we've been together.
And how about for you, Mike, what was it about Laye that you just knew?
Yeah, look, it was the fire, I guess there was probably there was probably a little bit of power as well, just the non committing to a relationship back then. But yeah, there was just chemistry. There was, Yeah, immediate love, there was. Yeah, it was. It was just on from the beginning. But like Lao said, I just didn't want to commit to a relationship to anything really. Yeah, so really self centered, self motivated to do what I wanted to do. So, yeah, relationship was not part of that.
You both decided, baby, that wasn't an accident, right, you both decided let's was an accident.
That's a big give of it.
Yeah, yeah, it was kind of I remember the day. I remember thinking I'm bored, like I traveled, run baby, run that business.
I think we were in this stage where I remember thinking what's next, Like, Okay, we're here, we're living together.
What's going on?
And then we didn't we didn't say let's not have a baby, but we didn't necessarily plan let's have a baby.
We'll just see what happens.
And then all of a sudden we found out we were pregnant, and then you know, your world turns upside down.
Yeah, I kind of galvanizes the coupling, doesn't it having a baby or either that or explodes it?
True, you know, but I mean we were exactly the same in so many ways. Well we honey, we were engaged when I.
Was twenty one, just twenty one, just.
Twenty one, And as we always say, you know, we couldn't figure out why our families weren't excited for us.
And we're like about the young bliss of love of like.
Yeah, I've known him for two and a half months, we're engaged.
Like they're like, why we can't be happy? Yeah, why are you?
Because as excited as we are. But yeah, so I totally get it. You know that, you know, you're in your youth. You think that you're invincible and love is love and you'll never meet anyone is amazing.
That's what I felt.
I still feel that way that, I mean, anyone as amazing as cams.
Yeah, so you know, you do what you do, don't you?
And then you but look, you guys are still together and you've got three kids.
You've got your son and two daughters.
Yeah, we've got three kids, so they're now twenty four, twenty one, and sixteen. Yeah, and I mean we often say it's better now than it ever has been. Yes, And you guys will relate to this, like the early years of having kids.
Is really brutal, Like it's hard, and.
Especially when you're young, and you know, for us, definitely, we had a lot of financial stress and we're both running our own businesses and we didn't really have any friends that had kids either at that age, so it was pretty lonely time. It was hard, it was challenging, but I really do believe if you can get through that, and you know, then as your kids get a bit older, and you know, obviously it gets a little less intense like labor intensive, sure, emotionally intense as you teen have
you had as you have teenagers. But I think getting through that stage now and you know now having young adults for kids and rediscovering each other's really beautiful.
It's a really beautiful.
Thing, you know, to be able to have weathered that, to come together or so just to be in this space that we are in now.
Yeah, for sure, Now we know a lot about Lale and the work that she has done and we're going to jump into that for sure.
But Mike, tell us what you do?
I support Lale of course.
Yeah that's the thing.
Look, I've always been in design, so design, graphics, branding, I guess is the primary focus. So yeah, I work for myself the whole the whole time, and basically just take on creative projects. So whether it's interiors or landscaping or websites, just something creative, I guess.
Yeah.
Beautiful. Yeah, and that's fun. And I guess we work together as well, which is even more unusual in a relationship.
How let's dive into that. How do you work together?
And how is it I do all the design work behind and layl and prepare the online courses and those things, and now they take more of a priority than they used to. Yeah, so it's it's everything. It's sort of living, parenting, loving working together.
Yeah. Yeah, and we both work. We work from home.
I mean I do travel a lot of work, but we work from home. So we're together a lot. But I think over the years we're really figured out how to work well together.
So, you know, Mike is such.
A beautiful visionary of bringing I'll have an idea I want to create this or do that, and he'll bring that to life. And I think we've learned over the years how to work together well. I often joke Mike's all about detail. I'm all about kind of bigger picture. So I'm like, let's do this and do that, and then he's like, okay, let's bring it down a bit.
And I think that's why we work well together.
Yeah.
True, So I'm and she's floppy.
Yeah, that's exactly like someone needs to do the big broad strokes though, make the mess, and the other one's breaking it up into doable chunks.
Yeah. Yeah, I think do we.
I think we kind of do make a mess.
Both of us. Both of us make a mess, and then both of us can get detailed. We work best when one's sort of doing it the other ones there behind going all right, I've got you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Today where your way out the front and I'm just behind just go o.
Is that right.
We've been together now thirty three years, married for thirty two, and I have literally just figured out the way Cam's brain works, just figured it out.
And how is that?
It's so helpful?
Because as he crosses his arms and moves into defense, No, no, because.
We talked about this the other day because Cam's mind, he's a speaking of astrology, he's a pissin now, you know how.
They're off with the fairies a lot of the time. That is Cam to it.
I think he's got I think he's got a post moon and rising and all sorts of stuff.
There's some area's in there though, I've got some fire.
Yeah, you do have fire.
But I finally figured out that I just need to ask him sometimes what he actually means when he says things, and where like the tangents this man takes in conversation is so wild, and our son is exactly the same. And I just realized that the other day too. I was like, oh my god, you two do the same thing where you're still thinking about a point five minutes ago in the conversation, where the conversation's moved on, and
then he's lost that five minutes. So when then he'll ask a question that's already been explained, and it's like that's already been said, and he's back, and so finally I'm like, okay, I've got you now thirty three years, I've figured you out.
It was quite a moment the other day. It was quite a moment. She's like, oh, now I get it. But see, I have to put the pieces together. It's got to make sense to me in some you know, I've got to draw some flow. Maybe it was a math class in year ten or something and they're doing flow charts, and that's the way I learned what it was meant to be. Yeah, yeah, flow it enough about us, I want.
To say we have the equivalent of that.
Where's Mike's mind works really fast, and I what I've learned over the years is that he will say something that's already three steps ahead of the conversation, and often other people are like, what what do you mean? Whereas I already know that he's gone fast. And so it's a really great point actually, when you begin to understand your partner and how they think and how they process stuff.
I sometimes interpret for you don't know, because people are like what and I'm like, no, he means this because he's already like three steps ahead.
Of what you said.
Yeah, Ham's three steps behind. So I'm often that way, but that's his tangent. I mean, that is the nicest way possiblity.
Well, thanks, sweetheart, Well you've been immersed in the universe of children for so many years, from being a dueler to creating an online birth education system to your aware parenting degree. Now you're educating children in sex education. Where did the passion for children begin? When did you sort of realize that?
I actually, I think it really was born because of becoming a parent myself.
So actually, before I even did that.
Not many people know about this, but my first ever company I started when I was twenty twenty was a children's entertainment company.
So I.
Dress up as fairies and all sorts of stuff, and you know, put on big shows and go to kids birthday parties. Off and joke, I think I'm on so many old home videos when yeah, VHS videos at kids'
birthday parties when they turned five or six. So I did that for many many years, and then when I had my when we had our second child, I'd had a really rough first birth experience with my first, and with my second, we had this really beautiful birth experience, and the moment I gave birth to her, I just was like, Wow, this is how good it could be, and this is amazing, And it just sparked this absolute love of birth and wanting to support families to have
positive experiences. So through that experience, I then moved into working in birth and then really that kind of drew me to working with trauma around families that had tricky birth experiences. And then as my kids grew, you know, and I had we had our third child and we had a few different challenges with her. It really helped me, I think, to understand what I was going through or what we were going through as a family with our kids. That I began to see that so many more families
were needing support around that. So I kind of followed that journey. And then as our son moved into those teenage years, you know, I had this thought of I'm my god, he's going through puberty and have we taught him enough about sex and all those elements? And that's what kind of piqued my interest to then learn a bit more about sex education and how we can you know, teach our young kids really healthy sex education so that
they're equipped to navigate this phase of their life. And so then I ended up teaching sex ed to teens for about five years, and then that eventually then moved into building the school that I co created, and so it really has been following our children's journey that each phase they've gone through, I've had that thought of how can I do these better, or how can I be a more conscious parent, or how can I equip them with the knowledge and the tools to navigate the world.
So it really has been through the growth of my kids that I think has inspired my work.
I love that.
That's fantastic, that's I mean I got into I was a birth assistant in America for a few years, and it was a similar sort of spark for me too, because when I was pregnant, I was so excited to be pregnant, but all I was told was the negative stories of birth and how it was going to be awful and take all the dry and do all this, and it's you know, your life is going to be Like there was nothing positive anyone was telling me about it.
And I was.
Really shocked because I was I'd been wanting to be a mum my whole life, and then it was just filled with this doom and gloom, and I was like, this is not what parents need to hear. We need to know the facts, of course, of what can happen, but just to be able to bring a child in consciously and understand that you you know, to trust your body and to trust what the process is. And so
I fell in love with it as well. I just thought it was every birth was just and no matter what I mean, I'm sure you feel this, no matter what the birth was, and there was cesareans in hospitals, there was everything. There was an adoption, it was a birth, and it was everyone was just as special as the last. And I remember them so vividly. I loved love that part of my life.
Yeah, it's a really special role to play, to be there when people become a family or a child born into the world, and.
It's so raw.
I loved it because it was real. It kind of all the all the crap kind of disappears, you know, because these moments of vulnerability and rawness and love and emotion and all of it.
And I mean, you would.
I used to come home from a berth and I would be on the biggest high, especially if it was a good berth.
I'd be all loved up. Would come home. I'd be like, Mike, let's make love. I was full of.
I'm just trying to be helpful.
Yeah, yeah, I'm here for you.
And then if it was, if it was a tricky berth, you know, I would. It was hard.
It was child for you know, really learning to take care of yourself, as I'm sure you know early within that it was really it's such a privilege working in that space. I don't work in that space anymore, but it was. It was such a such a beautiful learning around humans and around holding space for people even in their most toughest, roorest moments. So it taught me so much. I'm so grateful for that for that part of my life.
Yeah, Mike, were you there for the birth of your kids?
Yeah?
All three?
Yeah, definitely.
Wow.
How was that for you?
Yeah? Life changing really because, like you said, Ali, everything that we got told beforehand, especially from friends, was all negative, was all fear based, was all your life's going to change. Yeah, So to actually be there and see it just naturally just yeah, shifted everything every preconceived thought.
Yeah.
I often joked that when after we had our son, Mike being a designer was so I hope it's okay to say this was so flown away by the whole birth process and seeing our son coming into the world. I think nearly everything he designed after that looked like a vagina.
Clients tell me that their brands look like vaginas.
Okay, that was your.
Amazing And I consciously do anything but everything subconsciously, so yeah, it definitely softened me in.
And yeah, just getting back to the work that you're doing now as well, Lale, what what do you feel like the most common misconceptions that teenagers have about sex and their sexuality.
Yeah, it's a big question, I think.
I think one of the biggest challenges that we have with teenagers and particularly around sexuality education comes actually from pornography and the damages that that brings, because I think and also because we live in a really highly sexualized world, so we're exposed to images from a really young age as children around sex and sexuality, and then we have
something like porn which is easily accessible for teens. And curiosity is a normal natural thing of being a teenager and you and you're curious about what this is, and you've got all these beautiful hormones racing through your body and the changes in your brain and all those kind of things, so curiosity is going to be very normal. And of course pornography is so easy to access to just open your phone and then you can discover stuff.
Yet we also know that pornography is not an accurate representation of what real sex and intimacy and love making and pleasure can look like. And so I think, you know, one of the biggest challenges, so different to what we were navigating when we were teenagers, is the impact of technology and pornography. And then there's also the impact of
just comparing themselves to the world. Like often say that as teenagers, we used to compare ourselves to you know, the people at school or the kids at the bus stop, whereas our teens are comparing themselves.
To the whole world.
And that's huge, it's huge, it's a massive, it's massive for their mental health, for our body image. And then we throw sex and discovering what that is on top
of that is really big. And when I taught in sex education to teens, one of my biggest messages was really about tuning into what feels a yes and a no for us, but also what is what feels good, what is our pleasure and that dance between you know, particularly to see this lot with young girls is just trying to please somebody or I hope they think I'm good looking or there's this, you know, and and the
disconnection from the heart on some level as well. And I think there is so much that we can do to have real conversations with teens, to help them to tune into themselves and to others, and to have healthy experiences, because at the moment, the messaging and the information out there kind of tells a different story. So it's a tricky place to navigate these things.
I think, Yeah, a great.
Mike, you've perhaps I missed how many boys do you guys have just one? How have you handled that with him? Has been a if you've sort of stepped in and talked about pornography with him, or how have you handled it that?
It was just just with everything that was sort of semi taboo, just to normalize it. So we started talking. I'd say Kai was probably eight nine, and started to talk in the car together, normalizing sex, your body, how things will change. Probably didn't talk a lot about pawn so much as just normalizing the actions and the emotions
and the feelings. It was probably easy as well. I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but to have a second child who was a daughter that I could actually reference her as a way to actually treat a woman, a girl, a female. So that was handy, I guess, But yeah, I guess. My main thing was just to normalize it, normalize the conversation and just be there for any answers, any questions.
Did you have conversations like around the dinner table, like the five of you at some point and talk about sex and.
That's fantastic.
Yeah, we still do now even as adults.
And I mean, my poor kids, I often think they're probably going to need therapy because I kind of took at the next level and then to sex ed to teens and even went into their own schools and taught all their mates image and having your mom come in and do it and my I mean I asked their permission and go can I do it? And then my daughter once was like, yeah, you can come and teach them, but you can't bring like the you can't bring the vagina puppet because I had this like topic.
She's like, you can do everything else but not that.
But and it's interesting actually because now as adults, they're like, oh, no, you were the cool mom.
You know you probably were the cool mom.
Yeah, yeah, they were like.
And often their friends would come to us when they had questions or although, well we're worried about this, or you know, and we really wanted to normalize it and make it a topic that we could talk about all the time, which we have from when they were really
young and obviously age appropriate conversations. And one of the things I do say to parents a lot, though, because you know they can feel such awkwardness talking to our kids about sex, is that our children and this is not just around sex and intimacy, it's around everything.
Our children and watch what we are doing.
You know, kids can't be what they can't see, and so so often their imprints around sex intimacy relationships. You know, their relationship to their bodies happens even before we have the conversation because they're watching us. And one of the healthiest things we can do for kids is to model a healthy intimate relationship where we're kind to each other, we're tender to each other, you know, we cut all or kiss each other, where we can be playerful with
each other. So they get this beautiful modeling of what a healthy relationship can look like, because that's where a lot of it actually starts, is that imprinting of when they're young, when they're watching what relationships look like.
Yeah, tell me or tell us. What does the role of self esteem play in making decisions about relationship and sex.
Well.
I think one of the things that we've always really tried to jump home to our kids is that they are so worthy of being loved, but they are awesome, amazing humans. And one of the things I've definitely spoke to our daughters about is, you know, if it's a maybe, if you're sitting in a situation where you're unsure whether I should do something or not, if it's a maybe, it's a no, until it's a full body yes, until all of you is like, yes, I want to do this, Yes,
this feels good. And part of that requires a sense of connection to self, but also a sense of confidence to be like, hey, I'm going to say no and I'm still okay, because our fear is often if I say no, maybe they won't like me, maybe they won't include me. And so I think that's where self esteem comes in and that you know, what we've often said to our kids is that you are so worthy of being loved in the right way, right and don't put up with crappy behavior, because you are more than that.
And we've had so many conversations around the dinner table with our kids where they've had boyfriends or girlfriends or stuff and they've been treated badly and all of us will be like, hey, remember who you are. Remember you're worthy of being treated beautifully. And I think hearing that from the family unit has been really powerful for our kids, doesn't it.
That doesn't have to be just in relation to sex. Yeah, that's everything. Yeah, true of opportunities, friendships, where you go on holidays, who you talk to, what you do, you know, it's all the same.
Really, Yeah, And I think it's when we can help, particularly our teenagers understand that they're not just their bodies, and they're not the way they look, and they're not the grades they get at school, but they're all parts of them are worthy, you're being loved, and that they they have that sense of self within them, then of course they're going to be less likely to put up with crappy behavior or crappy relationships. So, you know, I
think it's such an important part and teenage. The teenagers are so wobbly, Yeah, so many.
Elements going on.
Yeah, absolutely, a part of being a human those teenage years, and so I think they need a lot of holding and grounding and some role models to remind them about their magnificence.
I think, yeah, and.
That kind of rolls into that. I was going to ask you a question about consent, but that's really very much connected in what you were saying about the self esteem and about you know, if it's not one hundred percent yes, a full body yes, then it's a no. But what do you you know, especially for you as a dad, as far as you know, we hear a
lot about what girls go through. You know, I said no, I said no. I said no, and then I felt like I had to say yes or there's I said no and I was forced upon anyway, Like how what's your feeling about that?
And do you have any advice on that? As a dad?
Yeah, of course, I think I think that. Look, I could be generalizing here and going out on a limb, but I think there's so much education about the girl and her responsibility. I just don't see the same responsibility with guys. So it has to be met both ways. There's no way that I can treat my son in a certain way and my daughter and another it has been equal. So I have to educate my son that maybe is it's not just for you made it, it's actually maybe for her as well. So you have to
sit in that balance as well and read the whole thing. So, yeah, it's educating your sons that maybe is not a she's sort of keen you know. That's a sit back.
Yeah, such a good point. So true.
Do you work with parents too, Yeah, there's a lot of confusion around I think for parents and not knowing what to do because I see a lot of parents wanting to be liked, and you hear that story of wanting to be friends besties with their kids, and it's like, Nate, it's done. Not your job here. Your job is to be a parent. Doesn't mean that. So they want to be liked, so they don't. So what's your feeling about all that?
So, yeah, I don't. I don't work with kids and stuff anymore.
Only work with adults and parents across all ages, from like little bubbas all the way.
Up to teenagers.
And so much of the work that I do these days is helping the adults understand their own stories and imprints so they can be the parent they want to be so, particularly in regards to something like sex. You know, I mean I used to run workshops on how to talk to kids about sex, and the first question i'd ask is, put your hand up if you got a fully comprehensive sex education that taught you about pleasure and consent and anatomy and your body and all those things.
Put your hands up if you receive that from your parents when you're a teenager. And I think in all the times I did that, I had one guy put his hand up and I was like wow, and he psych, oh, my mum was a sexual health nurse. And I was like, okay, well you scored, you got the writ info. But pretty much nobody else had that right. So then I think we have to be compassionate with ourselves because then we have our own beautiful kiddos and teenagers, and we know
we need to have these conversations. But because we don't have a lived experience of what it feels like to have these conversations, they can feel really awkward, we can feel unsure, it can feel really messy. And so you know, I say to parents, you want to practice saying these words. You want to get more comfortable with it. Because our
kids are always reading our energy. If we're really awkward and uncomfortable, they're going to pick up or this is an awkward topic and something we shouldn't talk about, so we want to try and find more comfortable, you know, states within us. But then also coming back to that other part you're talking about, cam of you know, being our kids' friends.
You know.
One of the other biggest challenges I see in parenting these days is learning to set really healthy boundaries, and most of us are not great at it, again because we haven't been modeled yet, but also because we're often scared about what happens when we say no then the
feelings that might come up within that. And one of our jobs as parents is to learn to sit in the uncomfortable with our kids, which means I'm going to say no to you going to that party, and it's okay if you get mad, and it's okay if you get upset, but it's a no, and you can tell me how you feel about it, and I can hear all the other stuff that's sitting underneath it for you, and we'll navigate that together.
Yeaps, we should.
It's we've gotten our kids twenty eight twenty four and eighteen, and it's so lovely to finally not finally here, but it's so lovely now that they can talk to us about their childhoods and those times that we drew the boundary and they were like so mad at us, And now they look back and go, I'm so glad you stopped me from doing that. I'm so glad we never did that. I'm so glad you gave us a flip phone,
you know. And it's like, oh my gosh. You know, it's really lovely to hear that, you know, when you stand by your guns and know that this really is the right thing at the time.
Just to have them look back on that.
Really tough at the time, isn't it. You're looking at this person that you love so much and you want them to love you and come to you, and they're screaming, yeah, oh that's really hard. I think you said up beautifully just a second ago. Use the word uncomfortable, and just as a broad broad brushstroke across humanity, we're not very good. Most of us are not very good at allowing uncomfortability
to be part of our daily experience. To do everything to not be uncomfortable and not be with our feelings. And as an actor or a performer, you know, you see some people just leaning on other people to get comfort in a situation. It's like, no, no, no, no no. The best part is watching you be uncomfortable and dealing with that. And that's been hard for me, is to
embrace uncomfortability. And I think as a parent, we get it all the time, and it's just you've put it so beautifully, and I think we've got to really just be with our uncomfortable aspects and go and accept them and acknowledge them and go, yeah, right now, I'm uncomfortable.
Yeah, And I think I think it's the work of I'll say parenting is to learn to be with our feelings so we can.
Be with our kids feeling And I think that's.
Most of the work I do these days is helping adults understand their own childhoods. You know, how they were raised and what happened perhaps where they weren't given that modeling, or perhaps where they learn it it wasn't safe to be angry or be sad or whatever. And so therefore until we lean into it and look at it, we end up then just carrying the same thing forward. To
our kids, absolutely, and that's where it becomes challenging. And I think the work of parenting is understanding ourselves and our feelings so we can be that beautiful, spacious place for our kids to bring all their messy stuff, and so that we say to them, I can hold this, I can meet you here, this is not too big for me, and that that's what creates the safety. I think in the dynamic of the parent child relationship that that's when our kids will bring their big stuff to us.
It's when they'll sit in those spaces where it's you know, they're really sad or they're angry, they're upset, and they'll be able to then navigate it and move through it, build that resilience so that they can navigate life. But so much of it, I think is us as adults doing the work so that we can meet our kids in those places.
And hoping that they turn around, like you said, Ali, when they're twenty eight, just going thank you, Yes, that was really amazing, And I can see it now because definitely that in that moment they don't see it, yeah, but to appease them in that moment is just a momentarily band aid it is a band aid.
Yeah, it's true.
There's no long term gain there.
Parenting is a long game.
We often say, you know, we absolutely use those quick punishments and rewards to get our kids to do what we want. But actually it's about building connection out of the time and and it is. It's the uncomfortable spaces, it's spending the time being with them, it's meeting them in their worlds. It's I don't mean, I don't know any parents who haven't you done this for a long time who regret focusing on that connection and.
The end of time and those places.
You know, nobody ever regrets that because they're like, I see that the relationship we have now with them as adults is really.
Is really beautiful.
If anything, you actually have the other side, which is people who weren't connected with the children turning around going I really wish that I didn't work so much, and I didn't do this, and I didn't do that, and I wish that I spent more time with my kids and a relationship with them now.
So is this a Nate for you guys or did you get some help on and tools on how to do this?
Oh? I don't know if it's a nate.
But I think we've both worked really hard on our own stuff. I mean, I think for me, doing the work that I've done, it's kind of forced me to have to do my own work. I don't think you can work in these spaces and support parents if you haven't well, I believe, if you haven't embodied it yourself. So anything I've taught or done over the years, I've had to do myself. So you know, I'm a big
fan of therapy. I'm a big fan of learning from others, and so often I'll go do something and I'll bring it home to you and go, oh, this is what I that, babe, and then we kind of work it out together, don't we. So you know, I think we've had we've had our fair shares of butting heads and messiness when all our wounds have come up. And I think I think the thing that I'm the most proud of with us is that we've always been willing to go there's stuff here, You own your stuff, I'll own my stuff.
We'll figure out a way together.
And it's taken time, but I really am proud that that we've been willing to lean into our own shadows when we've needed to.
Think it's lazy not to it's not too much lazy, I think, I mean, it's just too easy just to roll with the way that you've been patterned. You've got to question everything, and you've got to look deeper into things. And we all know as human beings, when we get triggered at something, there's rather than just brush it aside, work through it and question why, what it is and what is bringing out for you.
But I also I'm just going to add here, yes, I also know trauma plays a big part in this, and they're not everybody has the tools, you know, and they're not everybody is able to do it because they've never been modeled it or they're supported. So I do believe you know, again, we're all trying to do the best job we know how.
But I think you're like, this is so us. I'm like soft and general. Here's the truth, mate, he's the truth.
Here it is Mike.
Did you grow up in a household with parents that were communicative with you?
Like?
Is that something that oh that okay?
Sometimes you learn from people not doing.
Yes, yes, they were communicative European family, very loving, very providing, probably emotionally, not massively supportive, and not maybe understanding of individualization.
Yeah, okay, clearly you got wisdom from the.
Yeah, absolutely it was perfect, perfect learning. And you said earlier on it was you don't want to do the opposite to your parents. You actually want to get the good bits and the bits that don't make sense, and that's that your wife brings to you, and the bits that you see, you know, talking to friends and blah blah blah, and mash it all together to see how it all works.
Yeah.
Sometimes that takes time, you know, I mean not sometimes. I think every time. It takes time. You know, you can get It's like you take a vitamin pill and you're not probably going to feel better that day that you take the vitamin pill, and you're probably not going to feel that much different a week later, But if you do it for a year, you're going to feel better.
You're going to see, see and feel a change. And I think through my example of going through therapy and then working out what happened in my childhood, I went through a massive sort of like a learning curve about looking at how I was parented and probably did what you said, Mike was just push thing away and go, that's so terrible, you know. But then working more way back, so over the course of time, I was able to integrate all those amazing things that mum and dad did.
And then, thankfully my mum and dad are still alive and very vibrant. I still go to them for wisdom today, you know. And it's been a beautiful coming around, you know. But it did take time and patience, That is my point.
And I think it's I don't know.
When I work with a lot of adults, when they begin to understand what happened to them as kids and their imprints, our first default is to get angry and upset and you never.
Did this and you never did that.
And I always remind people that it's really important that we hold both spaces. We hold the space it says, I'm so grateful for who my parents are and the love and what they've done for me, and I also have a lot of hurt around, perhaps where I didn't get my needs met. And the work is never to then take it to our parents and go you didn't do this, or write I'm an angry letter. The work is do it within ourselves and hear those younger parts
of us that perhaps didn't get what we needed. And then we hable exactly as you say, cam to be able to sit in a place where you have deep compassion and respect and love for your parents in their imperfectness, in all the messiness, and we actually realize everybody's doing the best job that they know and perhaps you don't need them to be any different, And that's the goal.
But we have to work through all.
Our own feelings to get there first, because you can't just bypass it and jump straight to yeah, it's all fine, it's all fine without dealing with the parts that felt hurt or upts it.
It's all the stuff under the carpet that will come back. I know this is probably a very difficult question in the sense to narrow it down, but in both of your opinions, what's the most important tip in how to communicate with your child?
Do you want to go first?
My standard one is just to be present, that's it, because I haven't done it before. I don't know any answers. I've got a lived experience, but I don't know what the situation is happening in front of me, So yeah, just be present and work with it, work with your children, listen to them and just be there in that moment.
Yeah, And I think for me, one of the big things I always talk about is listening with gentle ears, is listening to here, not listening to fix, because so often what we do is we jump in to offer solutions as they're talking about when they didn't get picked in the basketball team or the best friend's not talking
to them. You know, watching our kids be uncomfortable hurts, and so because we love them, every part of us wants to fix them, so we jump in with what they could do or how they can do it better. And actually that's not what we need as humans. We don't really want to be fixed. We just want to
be heard. And I think one of the things I've had to work on a lot as a mum is just doing a lot of nodding yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing, and just sitting on my hand and not saying anything, and really just being that safe place to be that they can come to us with anything. Because again, when people feel heard and they feel that sense of safety, they will bring you the big stuff and they'll know
that's a place to come. And I often say to parents, you know, even if you've got like a little four year old or a ten year old, and this long
game of parenting. The more we learn to listen to our kids and be present with their feelings and welcome them doesn't mean we still don't have boundaries and those kind of things, but to be present with their feelings, then the more likely they are when they are teenagers, when they're at a party and some's going wrong and people are in trouble, that their first thought will be I'll ring my parents. They'll know what to do, as opposed to I hope my parents don't find out.
And that's all I want.
We want that long game of them knowing deeply that there is nothing too big that you can't bring me. You know that I'm here and I will hear and love and accept all parts of you.
And that comes a lot.
Through just listening and as Mike said, being really present with when there's stuff's going on.
And they sound like two really simple things, but they are hard. They are hard to do because we are busy humans.
We've got phones on us all the time, we're thinking of the emails, we're juggling everything, and then we also don't want to see our kids in pain, so we jump to fix and actually those two things which are really simple, deeply I think profound tools to have in your parenting tool kit.
Yeah, yeah, without a doubt. I know, Lale, you talked about you created a school. But my question I was going to actually ask you, which I mean maybe this is you've already done it, but if you could create a program or the perfect school for a child, what would it look like?
Well, I'm gonna have to say it would be based on the school that already.
Built, which is what tell us about that.
Look, it's a beautiful little primary school just out of Geelong here in Victoria, in a little place called the Series. It's all like I created with another woman, male Austin, who basically came to me because one of her kiddos I was. We'd done therapy a lot together for many years. I just supported her through raising her kiddos and one of her kids has started school and she just she
was just like, he hates it. His name keeps being put on the board and he can't move his body when he wants to move, and he was really you know, she was just like, is this what school is? And I was like pretty much. And then she said to me, well, what if we created our own school. What if we build a school based on all the things that you've taught me? And she had the means to do it financially.
She was like, you know, old fund it all. Why don't you just create the school that you think should exist. And so I think, after all those years of working with families and you know, doing therapy with them and seeing the impact of trauma, I was like, what would.
Have truly trauma informed school look like?
With the basics of things like children having choice in autonomy, they can move their bodies when they want, they can eat when they want, they can go to the toilet, they can sit on the couch to learn, they can.
Lay on the floor.
Just the basics even to start with around getting kids to feel emotionally safe so they can learn because you know, I know, and I saw it with my own kids. Kids don't learn when they are on high alert, when their nervous system is peaking all the time.
Going am I going to get in trouble?
You know, children need to feel safe and seen in order to learn well. So we wanted to create environments that felt safe. So part of that was having small
class sizes, is calling. We don't call them teachers, we call them guides by their first names, you know, having that beautiful emphasis on connection and getting to know each other so that children feel seen, and then looking at the education system and going, well, how do we deliver a curriculum that's exciting and that's inspiring and that kids
get fired up about? And so you know, we're a play based learning school, so a lot of what we do is through play, but also through following the kids' interests, what they're into, you know, what lights them up. And we are also lucky enough to be on like a twenty acre farm, so we use nature animals. The kids do a lot of learning outside. You'll often find the kids at our school climbing trees or just.
So dirty in the fantastic And.
You know, we've been open for four years now and it's not perfect. I don't believe there is any utopian school because I think all different systems suit different kids. You know, some kids love more structure, they love.
That rote learning.
For other kids they've got to learn with their hands. Other kids go to learn with their bodies. So we're not a perfect one size fits all. But for me, I think having created Woodline and then watching the journey of it over the last four years, which is, you know, I say, is often far better than what I dreamed it to be, which is so due to the incredible our principle and our leadership team and the people who work there are just the most excellent humans who are
really passionate about this. Yes, what I do see is that there is the possibility of a change for education because it doesn't suit everybody, and I think it's kind
of letting kids down a lot at the moment. And for me, I would come back to what if we put the child at the center for conversation and then built a system around that, Whereas I think our system is built around data, and it's built around this pressure that we have of what we believe successes, you know, and I think for a long time, what we've been told successes is getting good grades, going through diversity, getting.
A good job, earning a lot of money. That success.
But we know that's not the case, you know. To me, I think success is a calm, nervous system. Success is a person that feels connected to who they are and their spirit as success is someone who is kind and thinks of others, and the planet, and who also you know, has good boundaries and follows their passions of what they want to do.
I mean, what would the world.
Be if we actually raise kids that stayed innately connected to their sense of self? I think we would see a bit of a different world than what we're living in right now. So as a schooling system, I just think there's a lot we can do to shift where the focus is and come back to children to help them to thrive.
You know, for me, that is the.
Goal that I'm thinking that And you could probably validate this that in a scenario and environment that you've just explained so beautifully, that there's probably a less need for discipline because the kids aren't feeling the need to go crazy.
That's exactly what it is.
You know. One of the key things that is the main focus of our school we always say to all our adults, is we need to keep looking behind the behavior.
There's always a reason why a child's out of balance.
Maybe that's because they need to move their body, Maybe it's because they're hungry. Maybe it's because they've got a new baby at home and they're feeling really left out and not seen, And so then they come to school and they want to control something and so then they control someone else or you know, there's always a reason
behind the behavior. And our philosophy at our school is that when kids are out of balance, the first thing is to be curious and to lean in and see is there a need that hasn't been met They need some info or where is the connection missing to help them come back into balance so that they are ready to learn or be part of what we're doing.
So it takes a lot more work.
It's impossible to do in a system when you've got thirty kids and one teacher.
You can't do it.
So that's why you need smaller class sizes. You need lots of adults around, and you need all the adults to be i think regulated and attuned enough to themselves, right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so.
That they're able to tune into them But that, I think is where we see the huge shift and change.
And it's Look, it's not easy, it's messy. It takes more time.
You know, it pushes all the adults buttons. You know, that happens so so much of the time. Over these years of working with lots of adults at our school, what comes up beautifully is what happened to.
Them when they were at school, and they're like, you.
Know, that fires up a whold of their own reactions and feelings. So we've got to work through that so that they can really be that center point for their kids. So it's not easy, it's not a quick fix, but
I see how powerful it is. And you know, we have educators come from all over Austraya now to see what we're doing at the school, and we've got other people who are starting to build their own schools on this, which excites me so much because I'm like, if we can create more learning systems like this, I think we're going to meet so many.
More children's needs.
And then I think we're going to we're going to see a massive shift in mental health problems. We're going to see a massive shift in helping the family unit as well.
Guys, it's been an amazing chat. Thank you so much for being with us today. We are a relationship podcast, as you know, so we'll just finished with a quick two minute shower, so keep your answers short. Both answer the question please, First question, what happens does your partner have that you find adorable?
Oh, that's cute. Okay, I'll answer first.
Mike laughs a lot, and he's always silly, and he's always been an idiot, and it's actually quite adorable. And especially when you're doing with the kids and you find yourself really hilarious and they don't.
That's I think that's really quite adorable.
I love that that's called playing. But I think that's what I was going to say. When you're talking about the kid, get the kids playing. Adults need to play more too. Mike. What you say, Mike, what you say.
Lalel's heart comes through our eyes. That's that's going to be my answer. Okay, that's what I say.
Beautiful.
What about your relationship makes you feel the most grateful?
Wow?
I just think.
What makes me feel the most grateful is I know Mike has my back one hundred oh.
This is makes me emotional.
I know that no matter how hard my day's been, or what I'm doing out in the world, or when I'm trying to be out there and be big or do all this stuff, that he is so rock solid. I love the fact that when I've been traveling, he'll see where I am on my drive back from the airport and he will run a bath for me, so he knows that it's ready when I get home. Like I just I love that you think about how can I support And sometimes I've been in the morning Michael say to you, how can I support you today?
And I just go, that is.
So golden when you're holding a lot, it's yeah.
It's beyond yeah.
And my answer is probably the same, which is we're a team and we're connected. Yeah. We play together, we love together, we live together, we support each other.
Yeah.
Beautiful. All right, guys, last question, one word to describe each other?
How about playful?
To me? Describe me? Are you? I would say, I would say, honest, there you go.
Thank you so much for joining us today. This has been really insightful. I'm sure a lot of our listeners will get some intel and from this. So thank you both so much.
Thanks for having us.
I knew I was going to love them. I knew it so much. Good info and both on the same page. You know, when they were talking about consent and how they've taught their kids that you know, maybe's a maybe oh that when Lalee talked about, you know, teaching her kids it needs to be a full body, yes, and if you've got that full body Yes, you know it's the right thing to do.
I love that.
I think that's great for anyone, not just teenagers.
Absolutely, full body Yes, sounds pretty fancy. Yeah, because you know when your body's there, you're feeling it. Yes, like okay, I am all in.
Yes, that's exactly right. I'm going to I'm going to use that now. Is this a full body?
Yes?
For me it is.
I'm going to see a bit like my Saturday golf. If it's a full body yes, or then I'm going in. And if it's a bit, I'm still going in and I'm dipped the tailing.
I don't think have you ever had it on golf?
I think it's yeah, weekdays really yeah, week Saturdays, I have a better a better sort of permission is a lot stronger on Saturdays because it's Saturday. But a weekday, a workday, I'm going, yeah, maybe I should be talking to X y Z or are you still writing this? And I yea still go you go girl, Thanks for tuning in. See you on the next episode.
All right, see yea