Because it's easy to say, oh, you've got if people are more vulnerable, but what does that actually mean? But otherwise are kind of like feeling like you don't have enough autonomy in your relationship but not actually been out with say it, you know. So what you do is you become a bit passive aggressive around it, or you feel like you've been abandoned in the relationship or neglected in the relationship.
Hello, and welcome to separate bathrooms. We would like to acknowledge the Gadigor people of the Eor nation, the traditional custodians of this land, and pay our respects to the elders, both past and present.
My name's Ali Dado.
I'm cam Dado, and you know that we are advocates what longtime listeners will know that we are advocates of therapy, both individual and couples. Yep, we've benefited from that one on one time that dedicated tim to where there's someone in front of you with NOAHMO connection to you other than just to assist you to get to the heart of what you're wanting to heal.
Yeah, we do love our We do love our therapists, the ones that have come in and that we've spoken to, as well as the ones that we've actually gone and helped us with it as well. So we have a couple, a married couple who are doing something very new and innovative around therapy and psychology.
Sean Soreklei and Helen Robinson experienced clinical psychologists and couples therapists with over thirty four years of combined experience in the public mental health sector and private practice. They are married and together founders of Dremoyne Psychology, a successful private psychology practice in Sydney where they've helped hundreds of couples to improve their relationship.
And here's where it gets a little different. They're also the creators of Australia's first fully synchronized couple's coaching app, My Love Your Love.
They also have.
A book which we're going to be chatting about as well, and that's called The Eight Love Links. Are you a little bit curious? Well so are we. So let's welcome to the bathroom. Helen and Sean.
How are you guys?
Great, very happy to be here.
Yeah, we're super excited to be in the bathroom with you.
Do you do podcasts?
We ourselves?
Yeah, you've been guests on podcasts. Do you have your own podcasts?
We don't have our own podcasts, which apa with the idea. Yeah, but we love going on other people's podcasts.
Excellent if you had one in a toilet before, not in a toilet toilet.
I do like the idea of separate toilets though, that'd be good.
Yeah, even your own toilet, it's not separated conversation.
We've moved into a new home recently and our bathroom off the master bedroom is like a cupboard. There's no window, there's no ventilation in there. And we've come from a house that had three bathrooms. One of them was an outhouse. That was Yeah, that was great. And now we've got the two heads inside the house. One of them is in a little cupboard in the bedroom. So I'm kind of deciding I think you can have that one, sweetheart. I'll just I'll find.
Someone separate bus, separate toilets.
Yes, is a room to build an outhouse. We'll bring them back.
House. But I've decided if I get up early enough, I can go down to the surf beach and have a swim and then use the sheds down there.
And there is something, there is something about an outhouse, isn't there that?
This makes a lot of sense when you think about it.
What is that? What sense?
The sense of like you could have an outhouse ald to yourself if you if we had one.
What kind of did in the other?
Don't you think like in the old days, in the old builds, the toilet was separated. Yes, there's a lot of sense in that too. I don't want the stuff that goes down the toilet mixing with the tooth.
Brush and and the bar, like having a nice relaxing bar without.
A toilet, without a toilet in there, people running in going can I get into those to use them?
I blame Hollywood. I blame Hollywood because it's that the illusion of intimacy. Yes, we bathe and crab and it's all together, aren't we. Aren't we great?
There's also stuffing about, like pouring with rain, and you've got to go to the outer house down and the red back on the.
The red back. When I first moved to Sydney from Melbourne, I was well, I was eighteen nineteen. But my first home that I rented was at Whale Beach in Sydney, and it was the Old Tracks Publishing House and It was right on Whale Beach and it was this gorgeous old bungalow sort of thing, and out the back of it had an outhouse, so you actually had to walk out and into rainforest to get to this little dunny that was sitting out there.
That was the only toilet.
That was the only toilet in the house, right, So he'd sit out there and it'd be raining, as it tended to do up on the northern beaches around them, but you're in the rainforest and it literally was sweetheart. There were slugs and spiders in there, but you'd leave the door open and it'd be all these lunth of palms and all right.
Getting back to.
The Yellow I don't know how it'd been at you know, three am in the morning.
Well, see, that's when one of my brothers stayed and I said, where did you go to the toilet last night? Because it was raining, and he gets, I just opened the front window and peede out the front. Wow, it was great because the moon was on the water and I was watching the surf. But all the roses underneath got killed.
So boys can do that a little bit.
Hey, Welcome to the Bathroom Podcast.
All Bathroom chat.
We We begin usually by asking people how they met and and you two, given what you do your psychologists' therapists, how did you meet? How did that come about?
Well, we actually met at work, so we were both working at Bankstown Community Mental Health Service and we'd seen each other around, I think. But within about two three weeks of me being there, unfortunately a new client of mine passed away, which is hard enough to kind of
process as it is. And then I was just at my desk and this tall, handsome man kind of comes up and kind of crouches he is, He kind of crouches down next to my desk, looks me in the eye and just I can't really remember what he said, but he was just being super kind and validating around, you know, having lost a client, and it was just really heartfelt, and I was like, it was really nice. But I was like, who is this guy? He's gorgeous and he's got this beautiful god. But that's how we met.
That wasn't the beginning of our relationship.
I was single at the time, but Helen wasn't. And then she was single, yeah, and I was dating somebody and then she was like, oh, by the way, I'm single now just dropping it in.
I'm like, oh, I'm not.
And then the time came in the stars aligne and we're both single and like, oh, let's just hang out a little bit together and take it nice and slow and casual.
We're still working at the same facility together. At that point we were probably dating. Was that is that allowed?
Well?
Neither we were on separate teams and yeah, we weren't. No one was each other's bosses.
Yeah, gotcha.
So yeah, power and balances were because side of things to.
Come though, because like we work in every aspect together now still.
Right, No, that's things.
So did you were you dating and then dating married then opened your own business or how did that all come about? Because you've got your own and how long.
Ago was this?
Yeah, so in twenty seven we've been together for eleven years and we got married in twenty seventeen, and I think we opened our private practice in twenty seventeen. Also, okay, so we're working privately in other practices and other like psychology clinics, yeap, And we just said, okay, i think it's time to do our own thing. And we actually started just a tool of us and we joke about it now because.
We did everything. We did the admin, we.
Were the psychologists, yeah, every aspect, and today we've got a team of like fourteen fifteen people, So like it's grown pretty quickly since then.
When you argue, like who does the therapy, we boys do it.
Yeah.
Do you ever say, do we just stuck therapizing me?
You know? Did you know the tricks? Right? Yeah?
I think what we know that The thing is we know the tricks. So what we're good at is coming back and repairing. Sure, but we can argue just as much as any other couple. Yeah, when you're walking around, you're walking away, you can't of like, oh I don't want to talk to them. The little voice in your head's going, yeah, you know, that's not going to be helpful. And this isn't about the you know, the angry sort of comments that just went back and forth. There's something
vulnerable going on. If we need to go back and reconnect and work it out, and we do. We come together pretty quickly.
Absolutely, And it's always the idea that the relationships bigger than this little argument. So we need to come back together, work out what just happened, validate each other, and then we can we can go back to being friends again, which is way nicer.
Validate, validate each other. That's important.
Yeah, you said that like a question.
Did you know we did to validate each other?
Ali?
How validated I can?
Do you feel actually very doing it?
Yeah?
Yeah, yeah, you do? You do that lot?
I find Yeah, looks very in a bit of a session now, but I'm not.
Do you feel like I validate you?
The voice shoulders are gone up. Yeah.
Yeah.
There's a thing around validation that's tricky.
Well, there is. There is. Validation for me is a word that is a hot button loaded, a loaded Why so because I needed a lot of it early on and I still there, so I dealt with that. I'm flushing, I can feel it. My body temperature is going up. I can feel that. So I got through the big bits, you know, the big chunks of what is the validation that I keep seeking, and then it became has become more nuanced now, so I've got to pay attention to
the little bits. Yeah, because they can grow and make a big bit again.
And that's not okay, that's so insightful though, like I think, and it is. It is like there's big things that need validation like how existence and who we are. But then there's little nuances, like you say, that are particular to each of us, so you know, we will have our own little vulnerabilities.
Yeah.
Absolutely, And I think to distinguish as well. Sometimes we feel like we need approval to be worthy, which is it's different to like validating each other's emotions and experiences.
That's the difference.
Yeah, I think.
So that's good.
Yeah, So yeah, I know, Cameron, because I'm reading your book at the moment, which I'm loving my book, Yeah, keep it smooth. Yes, I picked it up just a few days ago from Dimmicks in City, and I'm always already one hundred pages into it, really enjoying it. But I just was really kind of like touched by how much vuldability and the anxiety that you went through, you know, with the with the starter and stuff like that, and
having to face that time and time again. So like I can connect with what you're saying there, I think.
Yeah, absolutely, you know, it's actually the big chunks are in the book and the little chunks are.
Into bookstalls.
Keeping it for you two. Is there a way of cutting through that language so that you know it's really heartfelt. Is that part of it?
Yeah, I think, like I think we've created a language. Like so we created our own kind of couples therapy program, if you will, for our clients, and we do it ourselves. So we created a language inside that program, and we do try and use that language. So it can when you start, it can feel a bit contrived or forced, but with practice, and like a big chunk of the work around validating and taking listening to each other and taking care of each other is in the body. Language,
is in the tone, is in the presence. So the language is important, but there's a lot more to that as well.
Yeah, to introduce you to some of the language, and that's okay, And this is like just something little, but it's something big at the same time. So we talk about what we call secondary conflict emotions, say anything from like the spectrum of frustration to rage, but also like disconnected kind of states where you've got to wall up and stuff like that, mission and submission. So we say there's secondary conflict emotions. But underneath that for those two exist,
there has to be invulnerable feeling. So if you've got anger, for example, inside that anger is the vulnerability and the anger is not going to be there without the vulnerability. So if we have an argument and that, you know, it gets a bit feisty, we need to go back and say to ourselves, Okay, I'm revved up now, or my walls up, or I'm being defensive or whatever it might be, what's going on for me inside? What's the
vulnerability that's been activated? And then I need to try and think about hell and say what do I think is going on for her? Because she's having a different story with two different people, and often we're fighting over surface stuff, and you know, then when those secondary conflict emotions get in, once being defense, once trying to point score that sort of thing, we're actually missing the core
of what's going on underneath. So just even having that concept in mind, we need to come back and say what's going on? And our repairs amazing. When we first got together, we were not perfect. We us have big fights, but now it's great, like it's and that's what you want to do. You want to limit the amount of time the conflicts been going.
Do you feel like there is just one main theme that couples really fight about. Is it just that we're two people are just terrified of being vulnerable? Is that or is it two people are not seeing each other's perspective, Like, is there an ongoing theme that seems to.
Be at the very root base of all arguments.
I think I think it's very much like there is an avoidance of the invulnerable feelings. So, like you say, it is like a fear of being vulnerable. I think there's also maybe we're not very good at finding vulnerability as well, and I think can this kind of you've worked hard to work out what your particular vulnerabilities are, and then we can we know how to take care of them. So I think everyone's vulnerabilities might be a
little bit different and it's scary to go there. So there's a lot of secondary stuff that gets in the way and creates further tension and conflict. So, like you know, for someone like for me, it's like a sense of feeling non important or not included or something like that. So that might be one of my particular vulnerabilities, but
it will come out in a completely unrelated way. So it's really about knowing what these are so that we can take care of them individually, like for ourselves, but also so our partner can learn how to make sure that they're taking care of our particular vulnerabilities.
Yeah, I think the vulnerabilities as Helen's kind of really alluding to that they are very different for different people, because it's easy to say, oh, if people are more vulnerable, but what is that actually mean, you know, with the hell and just use an example about herself, But otherwise are kind of like feeling like you don't have enough autonomy in your relationship but not actually been able to say it, you know, So what you do is you become a bit passive aggressive around it, or you feel
like you're a bit abandoned in the relationship or neglected in the relationship, you know, Or you feel like you don't have enough power in the relationship, or you feel like you have too much power in.
A relationship and the other person isn't doing anything.
So there's so many things we kind of say avoidance is the silent relationship killer, Like you can put it down to big life events, but they're often the things that push the relationship over the edge.
But we avoid talking about the vulnerabilities in the book, do you speak or give examples? It often helps me help through my journey with therapy. To I would say to the therapist, I don't even know. I don't know how to articulate this. I don't know what words to use. I need help, I need a script. And then once I have got script, I was like, oh, okay, now I can evolve that script and turn that into my
own words. Are you doing that too? Giving help to people to give them words and make them their own.
Absolutely, And I think that's really important because we're not We're trained in so many things as children and adolescents and adults, but we're not trained in emotional awareness and expression. So even emotion words like how are you feeling right now? A lot of people say they go, I don't know, and so yeah. So throughout the book, throughout each of the kind of links that we talk about, there's eight. Each one will have different kind of step by step
guides of how do we do this. So, for instance, there's big emotion lists to use, so when we're kind of feeling each other's story and feeding back the validation piece of I'm hearing this and you're feeling this, and so we provide those kind of step by step guides and the lists, and we also provide a list of those vulnerabilities that we've been talking about, so so that you can be like, oh, that sounds like that sounds like me, So it's already kind of the hard work's done.
You can just pick which of those vulnerabilities.
Yeah.
I think when we created the eight Love lengths a point of difference we wanted to make. I think when it comes to sort of relationship books, you get some that are like, you know, they can be really practical but quite dry, and you get some that are really kind of like insightful, but they're not practical in application at all. You know, we're talking about vulnerabilities and conflict emotions now, but that really only covers probably a couple
of the links. So in each of the eight Love Links, there's always there's a practical guide and like self inside exercises that you do throughout it, you can totally read it yourself. It's for anybody in a relationship, but we kind of saying the beginning, if your partner's into it, definitely like read a chapter each, come back and ask each other their specifically because even like things like quality time people, Oh you've got to spend quality time together, but like how do you do it?
You know, what it is. We're going to say, what is the definition of quality time? Because you get a lot of people going, oh, we need to spend some quality time. Put it in and it becomes this whole food through thing and you stare at each other and you're going, so, what is quality time to you guys? Because I know the definition changes between people.
Yeah, I think there's a couple of different elements to quality time. So we kind of like for us to break it up. One is about knowing the inner world of your partner and checking in on the inner world of your partner. We do this in a really practical way in a sense. We're like, we have a big list of questions that you can ask about your partner's past, about the president, about the future, about their childhood impacts,
about their hopes, their dreams and desires. So it's developing a habit of checking in on partners in the world. But as I said, we give the questions to make it easier.
Great.
The other part is very much related to continuing to grow as an individual within the couple. Okay, so we as a couple learn and grow as individuals, and there's a term called self expansion. So like, for example, when you first meet your partner, you grow because they're different to you. They have a different kind of like family, culture, might have a different education or upbringing. You continue to
expand through knowing them, but then that runs dry. So part of the quality time is working out what do you have in terms of your joint values and what can we do in these these spears together to continue to grow and have adventure.
What are you thinking?
Oh, no, no, I think that's awesome. I was thinking.
I know we've we've talked a lot about the Gotman Institute and you know there they talk about, you know, doing the weekly check in, which is very much what you're talking about, you know, sitting down on a Sunday or ever and just creating time to go.
How is you weak? You know what? What is there more needs that you have? You know? How you're feeling about this?
And and I mean we've you know, it's it's again, it's that feeling of that your partner just cares about your inner world.
Really, that's really what you're talking about, isn't it. That It's like that's it's.
Not about like a you know, there's the external things of like I put gas in your car fuel and your car for you, and you know, little things that are lovely make a difference. But yeah, for me, it's it's always been that. You know, what's how you're feeling about this now what's changed for you? You know, all of those things are just that they're the they're the links for me that are always make the biggest difference. Yeah.
So our third love link is called magic moments. And like the good thing about the eight love links too, is we're distilled all the research, so we reference the goopments in there, and the golopments talk about the couples who are successful constantly turned towards each other for bids of connection. So we talk about we break that down a bit and say, well, how come they do it? Okay, And the reason they do it is because they're in
a habit of doing it. And so one of our lumblings is called magic moments, and it's essentially how the small moments matter the most.
In your relationship.
And it could just be like a kiss goodbye, but it's heartfelt, or it could be like let me make you a cup of tea, but it's heartfelt.
It's this constant look looking to connect each day.
What do you guys do for each other? What kind of little mats?
One thing I didn't do yesterday after I soa our's car is one of the things that I do like to take care of. It also drives me nuts because she's not very she's she'll leave papers and stuff in.
That I can relate to them.
That's okay, it's a bit of a mess.
It's needed to take me from here to there.
She's okay. However, we've got a problem with the inflation of the tires at the moment. I did pump your tires up the other day. I just I just impressed the button to connect it. But they are pumped up. It's the back right one that's the problem. Anyway, it's cups of tea. It's again, and it's just I don't know, it's just checking in we as you know, we just before we started recording. We've just moved to a new house.
So it's for me. It was all. It's about making sure that the nest is feathered and getting getting those little things done. So like yesterday was a day of minutia, like making sure that the shells were made in her office so she could put all the stuff away and that's yeah, that's making hers but it's those things, you know. So also that you make sure that the fence is fixed, that the dog doesn't escape, so that when I go play golf and our wants to go for a walk,
she's not gonna be worried about the dock. But I mean, that's that's how I do it. I just kind of have that that thing going. I want to make life as simple as possible. I think that's so she could focus on what she wants to do.
That's one of the keys to a good relationship.
Though.
I think what you're saying there camera is you've got Ali in your mind. That's definitely when you're going through your day or your life, you go, how is this going to help or hinder?
You know? And I think that's.
Huge And because I know, I mean we've been together for thirty four years, so I know, you know, as we mentioned earlier, validation is a huge part of what Cam needs. So for me, it's like making sure I thank him for thank you so much for doing those shelves, thank you for moving us, thank you for doing like that. And I have to make sure I like really look at him.
That's true.
Yeah, it means so much outside.
No, I want to do a proper cheer. Yeah, it's I want to Yeah. I mean it's a great word, isn't it. Connection? Absolutely, because disconnection is just as important in terms of how how that can just make someone feel absolute crap. If I feel like our said, if you don't feel like you don't matter, or you're not included to use your word before, then it can really send you in a spiral. You can feel very lonely in a relationship.
There's nothing worse than feeling lonely in a relationship. It's just the worst.
Yeah, so that thing and make it like our makes dinner, you know, six nights a week. I do it one. I missed it last night because justad too.
Much on your movie.
But Monday night was usually is my night usually because she'll teach on Mondays. And missed it. But you know.
I just got to do one day one.
You get one night one.
Luckily I had a lasagna to throw in the oven. It was easy that you pre made.
I'm guessing, oh yeah, she made. Do you have a go to date night activity that you both do that you just really helps you connect.
That's a great question.
What's how we do a lot like this isn't a date night, but we connect multiple times during the week to walk our dog and go for a coffee.
Like that's one of our favorite things.
It probably is our walking. I think we because we have a very needy dog as well, and so he comes to most things with us. But yeah, so we love walking, We love being in nature, and we really chat, really connect, and we don't.
Mind going into the city and finding a nice restaurant. That's just having fun.
You know.
One thing I love about Helen is she's she can be very proper, but she can be a bit reckless and spontaneous and fun too, And like we want to tap into that. How our relationship used to be a long time ago. Now there's a lot more responsibility.
What about karaoke? Do you e have you that?
Oh gosh, I'm probably the worst.
Helen only sings in private.
You know.
I've heard her a couple of times when she thought I wasn't home. That's about it.
Whereas Shan sings all the time, usually about the dog.
Right, And it's not because I have a good voice either.
Tell us about the app this is this is really intriguing to us. I think it's really innovative and something that people can really get behind and use.
It's called My Love, Your Love. And how long is it have you had it on the market force?
Yeah, it's been on the market for a few years now. Yeah.
To be honest, it's been its best iteration in the first like probably the first half of this year. What I mean by that is we were kind of like, we have a developer obviously, but it's totally self funded and we've released it in chucks and continually updated it.
So it's looking at a makeovers. So this is a good time to be talking about it.
Absolutely.
That's what apps are four Like, you keep updating them, don't you.
You shift and it changes and yeah, yeah, yeah.
So the app is basically a couple's coaching app. So there's a big focus on symptomology in the medical industry.
What's symptomology?
What I mean is like typically, especially the last fifty years, we're goting to be better at it.
Now.
You go the doctor when there's a problem, and they treat the problem. They don't treat the cause necessarily, Like for example, you go on medication for type two diabetes, but if someone had told you a long time ago, to cut the sugar out, eat a lot more veggies, into a lot more running. Not that I'm giving any medical advice because I'm not a medical doctor.
It's an example you can.
So we wanted to create an app not just to help couples who have relationship problems, but to actually say, here is the blueprint to keep your relationship positive and growing in a thriving nature across the lifespan. And the app is huge, so you know, we sometimes see things like we're talking about those questions, they're getting to know new questions, Like we see apps that do that, but ours does that. We have, you know, a ton of those questions. But that is the tiniest fraction of the app.
There's like five or six cores. I say five or six because there's five modules and one kind of hidden one, and it covers all the realms. So for example, learning how to listen and validate each other as a big one has a whole module on conflict, which is giving you all the different strategies like we've mentioned one of them, you know, vulnerable feelings and secondary conflict emotions and learning how to develop and apply that insight. Then we have
deep connections. We have a module called Baggage Claim which helps you discover what am I bringing into the relationship, where does it come from?
Family?
That's all your vulnerabilities that we're talking about. It really identifying them and knowing what yours are and what happens when they kind of burst open in the relationship.
Do sex and desire? I've just got to add that one.
Oh, and there's that. The last one, the last.
One, last link and last module.
Is it Do you need to have your partner have download the app as well? Is it important that you have the both of you doing it or can just one person?
So with the app, both people, both partners need to be doing the app at the same time, and we did that to be really real and genuine with the product. So what we find in couples therapies, if two people are there and willing, then anything can happen. Magic can really happen now, and so we created the app with that in mind that two people need to do it together. So although it's on a screen, you're not on the
screen all the time. You're using it as a tool to connect more and be in person or sometimes if we're on long distance over zoom or something. But that's part of the reason why we wrote the book is because a lot of the feedback was, well, my partner's not ready to do the app what do I do? And I'm like, oh, good point.
So, yeah, you just answered my question. Yeah, is it possible for one person to work on a relationship when the other one is a little bit unwilling for whatever reason?
Yeah, the answer is definitely yes, And I'll explain that. But yeah, going back to Helen's point, we always say people can in the couple's therapy and say, what's the chances of this working? My response is always, if both people are willing to look at themselves and put effort into a relationship, it's one hundred percent. But coming back to your question, yes, absolutely, So we talk about in
the book how you're part of a relationship system. We kind of like use the analogy of a yin and a yang, and so the theory behind it is, and this is based on systems theory psychology, okay, is when you change the environment and the people within your system and the world around you has to adjust to your change. So you can totally look within yourself and make some significant changes and you can, and that can breed very beautifully into the relationship, whether or not you're the good
partner or the bad partner. That can have profound kind of change, which is why we wanted to put the book out as well.
What kind of feedback have you sort of had from couples that have used the app? Have you found that it's been really a huge help for them?
Absolutely? Yeah, So the people who it's like couples therapy and I kind of like it. I'm going to be honest about this.
Right if no, lie lie. So if you're used.
To TikTok and reels on Instagram and being utterly entertained, and you're like, I'm going to get this up.
It's going to be so much fun.
It's not like there's no gamification on it.
There is some gamification on it.
Like building out at the moment in the app.
So she's gamificating metophausefication.
So for example, when you do those little magic moments or those little special things like we give you random tasks to do which brought up and you get your score accumulates and you can spy on each other's score to see who's doing more and stuff like that.
I'm married to a very competitive right there you go, right, every.
Motivating I'm very motivating.
Yeah, but we kind of liken it to going to the gym. Sometimes you go to the gym and love it and sometimes you don't, but whenever you do it, you feel great afterwards. Right, And so whenever it's your relationships like that too. There's so many distractions, but when you invest in it, the rewards are great and you know, there's a lot of mastery in it and there's a lot.
Of connection in it.
So the app, the people who use it will give us amazing feedback, but you've got to be able to commit to it, just like anything else.
Yeah, okay, And who's the app for? Would you say?
I think it's really for like it takes a coaching aspect, so it can be for anyone that's in a relationship. So the app's definitely for people in relationships. It could be if you're struggling a little bit and you don't know where to start. Part of why we created and app was also accessibility. So it's really hard to get into a couple's therapists. It's very expensive and managing timetables
is very challenging. Two people's plus the therapist. So we wanted to make something more affordable and accessible if you don't have the privilege of getting into couples therapy. So it could be for couples that are struggling, that don't know where to go or can't go anywhere else, because there are some really great tools. That's what we teach
those same tools in couples therapy. But it's also for couples who want to just get the most, like squeeze the most out of their relationship, kind of unlock the benefits of a long term relationship is what we like to call it.
That's what we're all about. We really we don't want to fix problems. I mean we want to untie those it's not sure, but we want actually people to get all the benefits.
Of a long lasting relationship.
And all the.
Evidence and research shows your mental health in a really good relationship, is it fantastic.
Yes.
In a really bad relationship, it's horrible.
Well I know that for myself, even when we're fighting, I just it's just I feel shitty about everything, Like everything feels bad.
It's all consuming, it is.
It is, so, I mean, that's and that's just in a relationship that you know, we've been together for a long time, but even just when it's having its ebbs and flow is there, it's not fun.
It isn't isn't the app for those listeners of those walking the dog right now listening my love, your love. So just put that in the back of your mind while we continue our conversation.
Yeah, you work together, You've created an app together, you've written a book together. What's the best thing that you find about working with each other in this way?
Well maybe that's different for each of us, but I think for me, I just really love having a partner to do these big things because I think I grew up not really expecting Like that sounds terrible what I was going to say, not expecting much, but you know, being successful in a career and so on. But I think being in this relationship has really opened up this idea that we can do some pretty wild things. You know, we can start an app when we don't know how
to do and make apps. Yeah, we can open practices and expand and stuff. So I think that's what I love the most about us working together. It's like an added confidence boost. You know, we can work it through, we can push the other one when the other one's kind of down and going this is all too hard. And I think we do that really well for each other. We can kind of balance each other out and where you know, I am really detail focused and Shun's like the big ideas guys, So we really I think I
love that too. I'm always like, oh, I don't know if that's going to work, but then I'm like, okay, fine, let's do it and see and I'll help with the nitty gritty.
Yeah, for sure. Helen's a machine.
And like what I've just covered from Helen as well, Sorry babe, is you can cry and still be the strongest person in the room.
Because she can get overwhelmed and cry.
But the dedication and the discipline when she all she has to do is decide, Okay, this is a good idea, this is what we're doing. The ability to turn up and keep doing the work like she's second to like, I'm kind of like it kind of empowers me or encourages me to like or maybe out of kind of infe you're getting in trouble, I'm like, okay, I have to do my bit. You get in there, make sure I'm keeping up. Yeah, but The other thing as well is kind of look, I will talk. I will mention
this because I read it in your book. I thought it was really great in the introduction about how you're in the pack of swimmers and you can be in the middle and feel safe. And when you write a book or when you create an app, you know you're putting yourself out there and you know it exposes you feel more vulnerable, more people can have shots at you
and stuff like that. And being together means like you're not on the outside by yourself no matter what, because the relationships could you've always got each other.
And that's the most important thing. So that's been a wonderful thing as well. Yeah, of course it's interesting, isn't it. In order to push out and grow, you really do need to do it from the edge. You do it, and it's a vulnerable place to be.
Absolutely it feels so risky, doesn't it.
It does.
You're exposing yourself and.
Is it's scary.
You're putting ideas down and there you're like, how is this going to be? You see the people going to like you know, and people can be like armchair warriors and stuff like that.
I'm sure you have experienced.
My dad reminded me of that wonderful Roosevelt eleanor eleanor Roosevelt, the poem that she writes about the being in the arena, the man in the arena, because I just I got raped on the on the front page of the Sydney Morning Herald for over a play that I was doing. That the reviewer actually used me as an example. It wasn't even about me, It was really an example of what Australian entertainment was. This is a number of years ago, and it was it was so unfair and I saw
it on a faery. I was on the ferry and some guy was reading the thing and I meant, really cut me, But my dad actually said, cam, you're in the arena absolutely doing it, you know. He said, anyone who can tell you about anything is someone who's in the arena with you.
Absolutely.
I love that great advice. That's we always say to ourselves. We're not going to die.
Wondering, you know, and like you're going to put yourself out there. It's going to be a bit more risky and vulnerable, but you get to live the life you want to live, and that's that's what we find rewarding, right, Like we're living a life.
We want to live, and you get stronger that way as well, Like you kind of go, I'm living not caring what people think so much like I think so many humans are plagued with this fear of how they're perceived from what people think of them. We all are, right, it comes in human nature, absolutely, but it's really cool to push that and go, no, I'm going to just do this and I'm going to try this. There's no harm in the in the trying, and there's no mal
intention either. So yeah, I think you get stronger from it. I'm sure you grew from that experience.
Yes I did. Yeah, it's yeah, you do. And it also makes you understand, you know what, you can't control anybody else, that people are going to have their opinions. So you've just got to do what's in your heart and what's what you follow your intention and bring it back to what you believe exactly, going, yeah, and I reckon as long as you've been kind at least taught me this. You know, if you've been kind about it and it's a thing that you truly believe in, I mean,
it's worth doing. And that's a great analogy for you know, I speak with other actors about playing bad guys. Bad guys don't usually think that they're doing the wrong thing. They think they're doing the right thing. That's how they discussed out exactly they keep doing it. If you if you two could have any superpower to improve relationships, speaking of getting stronger, what would you What would you choose?
I know what I'd choose.
So one time, we were kind of struggling a bit, really stressed out, you know, bickering, and we'll flopping the app and as we said, you know that takes a lot of effort, and we just said, that's okay, we need to go away for a weekend. We kind of left the phones and we went totally off grid. And so what I would do is I would disconnect people
from technology and distraction. Not forever, because that's cruel, and that's a lot of good things with technology, but I'd be like with my gun, look, dang, no technology is going to work for you for like two days or a week, and then all of a sudden, people have time, the world slows down, and our brain's actually a prime for connection. But as soon as we're engaged in the task.
The part of our brain that it's prime for connection goes quiet and gets distracted, but that connection is sitting there, it's waiting.
It's what makes us feel whole, what makes us feel good.
So that would be my superpower, is that being people's ability to connect the technology away for periods.
It's fit. I just relaxed as you were talking about that.
Was there any sort of funny moments when you were creating the app or writing the book that you thought, imagine we put this in there, or imagine if we did this, how hilarious would that be?
Did you have any moments like that.
As in our experience?
Yeah, ah, well, we put little bits and pieces in there, and I think like from our relationship you mean.
Or just just just whatever, just whatever someone might want have been reading or looking at it.
I think we did a few of those, because you know, we can get pretty feisty with our readers in the sense of like you need to look at yourself here and stuff like that. So I think we had some few harsh things in there, and the editors like, yeah, no, the.
Love Links actually has a lot of our stories in it because we want to really show that we're humans too.
And it has a lot of client stories in it too.
Yeah, I think I just love that, yeah.
Identify clients.
But when it comes to the book, and like it's so varied, it's got every aspect we could think of kind of in there, right, But yeah, there's parts of Helen and ice relationship.
I'm sure that aren't in that.
We did fantasize sometimes putting stuff in there, even from our own childhoods, and then we're like, imagine that as I actually, no, let's not include that.
Maybe the next book exactly. What about as therapists and you're married couple, did it help you grow your relationship? Creating the app, writing the book?
I think so. I think so, And I think being therapists helped, like helped our relationship along. But I don't think it's a given. It's like I remember we were I think it was the year when we were overseas and you proposed. But before the proposal came, we were at a conference psychology conference in Vienna and we just were not getting along. I don't know what. I don't even remember what was the cause, but we were so disconnected.
And we'll go into these lectures on vulnerability, you know, all this stuff, and it was just so mismatched in that sense. And I remember thinking to myself, like I'm a walking contradiction, Like I need to look inside what is actually happening for me right now? That's creating this chasm and it's Yeah, So I think being a therapist doesn't mean you're automatically going to be amazing in a relationship. I think again, it's that willingness to turn it on
yourself and go. And when we did that, we reconnected.
And I think you're superposed.
I think, look, we're grown enormously because of the app and the book went back and like we delve so much into what we believe in that we have to enact it in our own lives. But a bit about our story. So I was previously married and have two kids. The first twelve months were together. I married young, so like I wasn't ready to die, Let's make it blended family straight away. I'm like, you know what I'm it's a few years single, Like, let's I just want to
have a romance and get to know someone. So the first twelve months we didn't introduce the kids at all.
Your kids too, No, I just have the two inherited works.
And the fur baby.
So like that there was an adjustment period, Like I think when when it was it was more simpler, right in that first year.
Absolutely it was fun and exciting and it was just the two of us.
Yeah, yeah, and part time to a degree because like we had the kids. Like it was like helm was doing our own thing and we'll catch probably phone and stuff. Yeah, but our wall was probably that adjustment period kind of getting through through, kind of merging into a and you know, if you don't climb over that wall, you're just going to be stuck hitting up against it. And a lot of couples do that for a long time and then it falls apart. So I think we did have to
dig deep. And that's part of the reason why we put some of our own stuff in the book to say, you know, it's not just a perfect relationship because we found the right and it's because we keep trying to turn up to be the right partner.
That's exactly why we did the podcast. Yeah, we were getting projections thrown and asking you guys.
Have perfect perfect couple. Yeah, it's like, yeah, what would you know exactly? Yeah, it's well, actually, here's what we went through and here's what we do know and maybe you can relate to that. So that's great because it makes it so much more relatable.
And is that in the book as well, your experience with the step parenting and the blended families, because we've had a lot of couples come in here and that is often the number one challenge that they've had where they've done blended families, and they've often sought therapy, Thank Heavens for it, and it's made a world of difference.
Is that in your book as well?
I think, as I agree with you, I think probably if you ask me what the most challenging thing in our relationship has been, it's probably the blended family. Best at mum, but amazing as well, like so much growth from it. But I think in our book and our we don't specifically talk about blended families, but if you apply the strategies and the understanding to it, then you can work anything out. So we used the same strategies
to work through our blended family. So for instance, that validation piece and listening and feeding back, as well as all the other stuff in the book is essential if you're going to navigate the complexities of a blended family.
Absolutely, and we talk about like different coupled domains, so like all the different aspects within life, like for example, like families, family of borage, and even domestic duties and stuff like that. But one thing we really try and do with the book, the eight leve Lengths and the app is it's meant to be a deep, thoughtful journey in the sense we want you to change your relationship dynamics.
The surface issues are you can get through one bit of surf, surface issue or content which might be huge.
I don't want to undermine that.
Like it could be like moving or about blended families, but it's the dynamics that are either positive or unhelpful. And our kind of mission is to help people understand what are my dynamics, what do I bring, and what's working, what needs to tweak, and what needs to be introduced. And once you know that and you have the strategies and tools, then you can potentially get over any obstacle.
And that's what we want.
To impare the tools to apply to everything.
And that's what we said about every couple that walks in. We don't want you coming here forever. You're always welcome back. We say, because we love our clients and taught side, but we want you to understand the dynamics, so like, how do we get over these problems? Like, well, we'll help you get over that problem, but let's look at why you're struggling to get over that problem.
Yeah, are there checks and balances for you guys as psychologists and in therapy? Do you do your sessions and then do you who's checking on you?
Yeah? Absolutely, so most psychologists will have their own supervisor who they can in with. I know in our practice we're trying we try and create a culture that's positive and supportive. So we have an open door policy. So if psychologists needs some help or check in about their clients, or if something happens it's really triggering or something, then they're most welcome to kind of reach out.
And we run a group supervision session every fortnight, so that's just a standard time and any psychologists can come into that and talk about clients that they're dealing with. And yeah, as Helen said, each psychologist has to have their own supervisor to maintain registration.
It's really importantly because it keeps things safe. Yeah.
Absolutely, it's a lot of load to kind of carry, so you need to you need those official ways, but also like what are you doing at home? And to take care of yourself.
We're clinical psychologists as well, so we have clients, I mean psychologists, not clients. Sorry, sorry staff colleagues. When they first start, they actually have to do one hour supervision every fortnight for two years.
Right.
Yeah, it's awesome.
It's good, isn't it?
Yeah?
Good? Well, the app is My Love, Your Love. The book is the Eight Love Links. And we're going to step into the shower now, away from the toilet, away from the head, and we're going into the shower for a two minute shower. And we'd like you to answer these questions which I don't have in.
Front of me down the bottom down look at that you.
Just like I wrote it. Can you both answer the question? OK, what habit does your partner have that you find adorable?
Oh?
Well?
Mine, for Shan is definitely the way he speaks to our dog. He says like, good boy, do it. You have to do it.
I don't know if I can do it. On to man, I have to say him a good boy.
A treat.
Mind for Helen is it doesn't matter if she's in tracksuit pants or completely glammed up. No matter what's going on. She can spill food or drink on herself in every single occasion.
Yeah, it's surprise. He still looks hard looks. That's what I'm like.
Yes, you have a big stain down your dress, but you.
Still look great, so it doesn't matter.
That's good.
Yeah, that's that's that's your territory a little bit at the moment, isn't it.
Honey.
You're like, yeah, I got the white jeans on today.
Guarantee days white jeans.
Yeah, it's got to be black all the time.
What what is it about your relationship that makes you feel most grateful.
I've got a best friend, you know, and totally in love with her, and I just feel like we are partners through this journey of life. And I think we've got really kind of common values.
And is Helen okay with that? What do you mean which part that you have this best friend, Well, Helen.
Gets to hang out with for some of the time.
I totally cut you off, but I had to go there.
Yeah.
Look, I'm just I'm grateful I've got this amazing partner to share life's adventures with, you know, and we both had the same kind of ideas and worldview and stuff like that or not not all the time. But I mean we both know that life is in the moments, and you know, we can find that anywhere as long as we put some effort into it.
I don't think I can top that one. But similarly, I think I just love having someone that's kind of fun and interesting to do life with. Its the best.
Yeah, and he says, good boy, boy, I don't care.
I've got one too. I've been rubbing his tommy this morning. Good boy, don't escape. Good for what do you miss when you're not together?
I think I miss his cuddles, Yeah, he's yeah, I just yeah.
I think it's a comfort zone. Absolutely.
It's like it's awesome to go out and be autonomous an individual, and then it's like you're coming home.
It's just a nice comfort zone. Lovely.
Last question, one word to describe each other.
I would say generous. And I say that not like financially, yes, but I think he's just super generous from his heart. So you know, like I was pouring with rain yesterday and I was at the gym and he takets me saying, do you want me to come pick you and like, the gym is five minutes walk away from our house and he's like, it's raining hard, would you like me to come pick you up? And he's always offering to take me places, which is not reciprocated from.
You can get.
So Yeah, he's just generous with his love, with his time.
Yeah, with these thoughts, I'm going to say, it's mexy, smart and sexy.
Look at that you never had before, mexy.
MESI I like that.
That's awesome.
Sean and Helen, thank you so much for joining us today. So I said my love. Your Love is the app download it now and the book the eight Love Links.
Thank you so much, so much fun.
It's been a lot of fun.
I'm really excited to download the app.
I'm never looked into relationship apps before. I'm gathered there's probably some others out there, I'm sure, but yeah, it's sort of like having a having a therapist in your pocket, Isn't it all?
It is?
And they did mention the fact that therapy couple's therapy can be expensive, absolutely and also allocating time getting everyone on the same page with schedules. Everyone's so busy to have it as an app and just I mean the expense on that it would be minimal, minimals.
And if you're in a place where you know, you're out in the country town or wherever you are that you're not in the big city where there's therapists it's a great around, then you've also got an app that, yeah, you can do it at any time of the day.
And Stufti with the book. Yeah, the eight love Links really good, really good.
Yeah.
Absolutely, they've broken it down, which I like that. I like it when there's they break it down into stories, into links, into doable chunks.
I think that that's really important.
We love doable, We love the doable just a little by little, because you can cover a lot, a lot you know, you don't even know you got where you got.
That's right.
Well, we hope you enjoyed our chat today and join us next time.
See ya,