I think it is missing from our sex education is, of course, the conversation.
About respect, fun, pleasure, and communication.
So I am not surprised that young people are going out into the world as young adults wondering about how they can make sex as safe as possible, but not really asking questions about pleasure.
Hello, and welcome to the heart of it. We would like to acknowledge the Gadigor people of the urination that we record this podcast on today and give respect to their elders, both past and present. A real interesting chat we've had. Hey, honey, was scram I'm all of us, you're all abous.
Who knows? I just you know. We talked to sexologists psychologist law Elee, and she put things very differently today, and it's just yeah, So I'm quite excited at some of the things that I think, dare I say, we can implement.
And not necessarily sex, no, but hopefully leading to it. No, No, I think I know what you're talking about. I think when she was talking about like admiration and connecting to your senses, I loved that. Yes, I loved that. I thought that was really great. And she talks about which I think women will very much understand disconnecting from your body.
I think men do as well, but I know women disconnect from often quite a young age due to their cycle when they've got to push through pain and they've got to disconnect and disconnect because they know they have to still go to school even though they've got period cramps, or go to work with endometriosis, or there's a lot of disconnecting that we often have to do from our bodily functions in a way. And I think when she mentioned that about a way to reconnect to your body,
she had me. She had me on that.
One, yeah, because it was sort of it was sort of checked back in and with yourself. It's almost like that meditation sort of idea of checking back in and being more aware of your senses. And I loved it when she said, I mean, she'll say it more, but it's not so much how you look. It's more about how you feel and being with that idea. And I know for me that was a big shift working out and just going I just don't look any different, and I'm losing heart in it. But it was like, I know,
how do you feel? I feel so much better. We'll just keep doing it and that's what I's and see what happens. She does talk about the idea of with sex as wanting more sex versus creating a desire to have sex, which I thought was really really good.
Yeah, she's worked with couples, so sometimes she's been a psychologist and a sexologist. She's got over seventeen years ex experience in clinical practice and coaching. And she's the director of Blue Space Psychology where she provides individual psychological and sexual therapy.
Yeah. She's pretty amazing actually, And this is a really terrific chat. So if sex is something you think about a lot or not, you're gonna love this chat with Laura Lee. Laura Lee, thank you for joining us today. May I say, what a great name. It's like your country artist.
I appreciate that very much. It actually wasn't the name I was born with.
I was briefly married and kept that got married very young and kept that surname even though I'm no longer married because of reactions exactly like that.
It's a great name.
Carry doing, Laura Le, like it's the whole first name, right.
Yeah, it does create some first names the name confusion, but otherwise otherwise it's workable.
Yet, Well, we're really excited to have you with us today because one, you're a psychologist too. You're a sexologist with over seventeen years experience in clinical practice and coaching, and goodness knows a lot of us could use Right now, our son River is studying to be a psychologist, so we've we understand a good amount of why someone would become a psychologist. What about becoming a sexologist is what is sexology? And why did you choose to become an expert?
Well, expert expert? Can we go with experts?
Thank you much, thank you? So I thank you for that.
Well, welcome. I really got interested in.
Sexology because of my wonderful clients in my psychology practice. So sexology is the study of all things related to human sexuality. So sexologists might work in therapy, they might work in research, education, public health, health policy, health promotion.
So sexologists work in all.
Different kinds of ways. I got really interested in though, because I started to hear more and more from my clients' issues of sex and sex within their relationships, and I felt really ill equipped to support them because sex was not really covered at all in my six years of study and training to become a psychologist. I actually don't remember the word sex really even being mentioned. And as I started to talk to other healthcare providers, even gps,
they all started saying the same thing. I have a friend who's a GP who said that sex was covered in one two hour lecture in her medical degree and that was about it.
So it is really not.
A huge part of health provider training. And I just felt very strongly I wanted to do better. I wanted to give people great sexual health care. So I went back into the master's in sexual health and psychosexual therapy.
I find that interesting.
So was that another two years or another.
Year and another two years study?
Yeah?
Wow, I mean I find that really interesting that it's not covered because a lot of people would argue that men think about sex all the time.
That's all that quite a lot, I believe.
Yeah, so that's a lot of psychology there.
Yes, Yes, it reminds me a lot of like the fact that doctors aren't trained in women's hormones as well, which also goes hand in hand with sex too, So it seems like there's a massive gap in the market there, specifically for women I think, I mean men too. I'm not saying the sexology is not. But like, for I'm just just saying.
I think it's funny because you're thinking about hormones all the time and I'm probably thinking about sex. Yeah, a lot of it's exactly it.
But I mean, Ali, your point is, your point is excellent. So we know that women's health and women's sexual health is particularly under funded under research, which unfortunately means women the will are actually more likely to get really poor health advice when it comes to sexuality. So I hear from my clients a lot about going to the doctor with issues of sexual pain, for example, and being given
advice like relax, have a glass of wine. This this kind of advice, which is which is really unhelpful to say the very least.
Yeah, and if you want to stay together, just put up and shut up, like just give him what he wants. Just just like think of Queen of England and just well, don't think of Queen of England.
Actually I can think of the Queen of England. Maybe not likely, don't have.
You know the way, and and then you know, then he's okay for a week, you know. I I lot of my friends talk like that. It's like, oh boy, okay, we've just I've got to service him to keep him happy, but like there's no enjoyment for them.
No, And what you're referencing here is some really ingrained sexual scripts. So sexual scripts are these ideas, these stories that we've internalized about sex, and a lot of us would have similar similar ones growing up. You know, this idea of yes, sex being for the male partner, or sex being over when the male is finished, and all of these kinds of ideas sex meaning penetration.
These are all really.
Common ingrained scripts around sex culturally for us.
Yeah, we had a I reference her a lot because she was just so interesting, but we had a sex historian in her and her mum. And I'm going to get the date of it wrong, but it wasn't that long ago in our history that they thought that women had to have an orgasm to get pregnant. And it wasn't until they discovered that you didn't, women didn't need to have the orgasm to get pregnant that it was like, oh, you don't need sexual pleasure, that's great, you can just
be the carrier of the baby. And that's where women lost a lot of pleasure in a way.
Is that how you yes, Yes, that's absolutely right. I know it wasn't that long ago. There's lots about women's health and women's anatomy that actually wasn't discovered that long ago, Like research into the clitorists, for example, is only really in the last few decades, like certainly in all of our lifetimes. So this is really this is a really i'm known under researched area.
Yeah.
Yeah, the clitterist is an amazing little creature.
Actually quite a big creature.
Well quite, it's quite. It's bigger than we think it is.
Yes it is, Yeah, yes it is.
I'm saying, we.
Looking at me like what.
Most people struggle to even start a conversation about sex in relationship. Most I think, what are some simple ways to break the ice in a real relationship.
Yeah, this is a really common concern for people. I think it is very common for people to be having sex but not talking about the sex that they were having. That was certainly true of me for most of my
adult life. That's a very common experience. So if this is a new topic for someone you know in your relationship, no matter how long you've been together, I really invite you to consider that first conversation as simply an opportunity to explore willingness and openness to even talking about sex like that first conversation is not We're not trying to solve problems or raise issues. We're definitely not kind of
giving feedback or raising grievances. Instead, it's more an opportunity to check for willingness from our partner that this is a topic that they even want to discuss. So that can look like something like, Hey, I feel a bit I feel a bit nervous bringing this up with you, but it occurs to me I'd like us to be, you know, great lovers to each other for a really long time time to come, and I want us to have great sexual experiences even though it's super awkward.
Are you are you up for that?
Are you? Are you up for that kind of conversation?
That's all So, as far as you know couples opening up about sex and talking about sex, what do you find is the biggest barrier across the board that people have? Is it religion? Is it having not had an open conversation with their parents growing up? So what is it that stops people having just a regular conversation where they might feel the shame or the embarrassment.
I think it's I think it's layered.
So I think the first thing I would say is we still live in a pretty sex negative culture, so it would be easy to notice that we've come a long way, We've made a lot of progress, but actually there's a lot of there's still a lot of taboo around talking about sex. I mean, I look at how I even have to I have to spell sex in kind of COVID ways on social media just to even talk about my work. So there is still a real
taboo around this topic. The second thing I would say about communication about sex is that it is a learnt skill that most of us were not taught. And like any learned skill, we need, we need to practice it, we need to be taught it, and most of.
Us weren't taught how to talk about sex.
In fact, most people I know, myself included, were out having sex long before I developed the skills to.
Talk about it.
The final thing, though, I would say that's a barrier to talking about sex, and I think it might be the biggest one I see in my practice, is all the emotion that goes with this topic. It is such a fraud topic for couples. It generates so much anxiety. People are so afraid of what they might come up against in terms of am I going to be judged, rejected, abandoned, hurt, feel ashamed, laughed at. It's a pretty high risk, high stakes conversation to have if you aren't that familiar with
it or you've never had it before. So I really have a lot of empathy and compassion for people who are struggling to navigate communication in this space. It is such a fraud topic for individuals, let alone couples who are then bringing two sets of stuff to the conversation.
What are some myths about the sexual desires that you wish more people understood.
One of the.
Myths that I think is out there about sexual desires is that fantasy and the things that we might enjoy in our erotic mind are necessarily things that we want to translate into action. That is not necessarily the case. So I would want people to understand that fantasy is a place for exploration and imagination and it doesn't necessarily mean we actually.
Want to do those things.
So I would really love to encourage people to explore fantasy more, share them with a partner if they trust them be willing to play with them and play with these ideas of things that we find erotic and arousing.
That would be one myth.
Another myth I would want people to know, I guess, just more broadly, is that whatever you're into, I promise you're not the first person that's into it. And if ever you need any proof of that, you can absolutely go and look up any fantasy that you've had, any thought, any any desire that you've come up with. I promise you'll find like a category for it somewhere on the internet, because there are other people that are into it too. So whatever you're into, A promise, it's not that unique.
Yeah, and probably exactly as you were saying, you know, and across the ages that we've spoken about this before, that it's the kinks have been happening for many, many men, any hundreds of years.
Actually, Yes, absolutely, yes, we're not actually as like creative or imaginative. I think that as we think we are. Yes, most of this stuff has been around a long time. I mean, even ideas that we think are reasonably new around relationships. If I take for example, non monogamy and polyamory, it feels like non monogamy is really having a moment. It's certainly becoming a more a relationshipture, a relationship structure that I am seeing more and more from my clinics.
But actually, monogamy isn't really that traditional. So the structures of non monogamy in relationships and having multiple people more than two people in your relationship structure is actually very, very old. It's been around a really long time, so it's a really nice example of what you're talking about.
Unfortunately, many people have had sexual experiences, whether it's been abuse as a child, or it's been a sexual assault, or however it's played itself out, or they've been shamed deeply in a place of their sexuality. How do you work with people when they're adults struggling with that kind of trauma and it's affecting their relationship in the present moment.
Yeah, absolutely, I think you know where I start with. I do a lot of trauma work in my practice, and where it's really important to start with is unpacking some of that shame and why that's older and why and how that's been carried into the current relationship and helping people really unpack and process things that might have happened to them in the past that are showing up
and affecting their current relationships. When I use that word process, when we use that in a trauma context, what we're talking about there is helping the memory of a past event get successfully processed in our long term memory. Trauma memories can get kind of stuck in our body. You've probably heard that kind of language around trauma getting stored in the body.
When it gets kind of stuck in.
The body like that, it means it's really susceptible to being triggered. It's like it's kind of like, you know, getting an electric shock. Something happens today that reminds my nervous system of a past trauma. It's really easy to kind of get that electric shock, that zap of recognition and reminder that floods my nervous system, and my nervous system thinks this is just like that other time, and its senses that we're under threat.
So part of my work when I work with trauma is to.
Help people successfully process past traumas, get them filed away where they should be, into long term memory, so people are more able to stay regulated in the present moment. But the other thing I would say about that when it comes to sex, is that it wouldn't be uncommon for me to suggest people take sex or certain sex acts off the table whilst they are doing that work, because nothing good happens if we are pushing through sexual
experiences that are really distressing or really unwanted. I'm not talking about nonconsensual experiences obviously, obviously that goes without saying, but.
I'm talking about the sex that is unwanted and.
He's maybe been done from a place of obligation or thinking I should Pushing through those kinds of experiences can be really harmful and really re traumatizing.
Interesting. What's a totally normal, but I guess surprisingly controversial topic in your work.
It's sex education in terms of a fantasy or anything, well.
Kind of anything what comes to mind. You know, you think it's normal, but it's viewed as controversial.
Yeah. I mentioned non monogamy before.
I would say that that is a relationship structure that a few years ago I would say I didn't really know any one that was practicing non monogamy openly in their relationship, And now now I would say that is becoming far more mainstream. And in fact, there was a research study done recently, it was in the US that indicated one in ten research participants would be interested in having a relationship that involves some form of non monogamy.
So it's actually quite a popular and relationship structure that is of interest. It's estimated at the moment in the US, and also similar numbers in Australia that somewhere in the vicinity of about four percent of relationships are currently openly
ethically non monogamous. I'm not talking about infidelity, ethically openly non monogamous, and I myself have lived experience of a variety of relationship structures, including ethical non monogamy, and so I feel quite connected to that community, and I would say that is a topic that I get questions about in my practice. Now more and moreeople are very interested
to know what's available to them. And I'm so excited by this because I love not because I think no monogamy is for everyone, but because I do think it's wonderful to consider our relationships with intentionality. If I choose monogamy or not, making that choice intentionally rather than just thinking it's something I have to do as a default, and that spirit of intentionality is beautiful to bring to our relationships and.
Our sex lives as far as like, you know, we touched on sort of sex education and earlier. But where do you think we're at with sex education and our kids. You know, everyone's talking about this show Adolescence, and you know, it's very very hot topic right now, and really it's been alarming to watch that. But I think we've kind of known a little bit the effect of social media where our kids are learning about sex, particularly our young boys.
Where is sex education now do you feel in our schools? And does it need a complete overhaul?
Yeah, such a big question, And yes, I'm actually delighted that it's that it's a hot topic for all the reasons you alluded to. Our sex education model at the moment is unfortunately really risk based. So a lot of the messaging that young people are getting is that sex is a risky activity, right in that you are at risk of getting pregnant, or getting someone pregnant, contracting an STI, or at risk of assaulting someone or misreading signs of
consent and nonconsent or being assaulted. So these are some of the risky messages that young people tell me they.
Are getting about sex.
So they are getting education about minimizing the risks, right, So they're getting education, in some cases reasonably good education about minimizing the risks of sex. The bit that is missing from our sex education is, of course, the conversation about respect, fun, pleasure, and communication. These are the things
that are missing about sex. So I am not surprised that young people are going out into the world as young adults wondering about how they can make sex as safe as possible, but not really asking questions about pleasure.
How can I ask for what I want?
How can I have a good time, How can I get to move my body? These are the questions that come up later in life and unfortunately missing from our current sex education.
Laura, what effect does porn have not only with our kids, but also in our adult sexual relationships.
Yeah, yeah, this is a great question, because of course porn news is prolific and it's everywhere. One of the things to really understand about pornography use is that the way that it is used in the context of masturbation to achieve arousal and typically orgasm, that can become a really habituated relationship.
So what I mean by that is those neural pathways can.
Get really strong around this is what somebody needs to achieve a certain level of arousal.
To achieve orgasm.
So that when people ask me about kind of addiction, I often explain that there's lots of gray before addiction, and what that looks like is more that habituation where it feels kind of compulsive, like I have to The other thing that can happen with pornography use, and I think this is where it can have really unwanted consequences, is that we can, through that habituation process, we can require sometimes more and more of something to achieve that
same level of arousal. And unfortunately, with pornography use, what that can mean that we're seeing is people might seek more and more extreme content in order to achieve that same level of arousal. So the types of videos they were maybe consuming initially kind of feel like then they don't quite do it, and so someone will go seeking
something more extreme. One of the things that happens here when we are sexually aroused, so when the arousal response is happening in our body, happening in our nervous system, is that it turns off some of the things that would signal things like discussed, So our disgust response kind of turns off when we're sexually aroused, and that can mean sometimes sometimes people will say things or think things or do things during sex during arousals that afterwards they're like, oh, God,
like was that me?
What was I? Even? What was I saying during that? Right? Who was that person?
But this can become really problematic for people when it comes to pornography use, because they might consume pornography, particularly very extreme types of pornography that afterwards they feel a lot of shame and guilt about consuming. So that is some of the ways in which pornography use can become really really problematic and really.
Like unpleasant, unwanted.
I work with a lot of young adults who talk to me about their pornography use, leaving them feeling some really yucky feelings after engaging with it, and that's not how we want people to feel after they've engaged in pleasure, not at all.
It's so interesting. I've never heard it explained like that. That's really fascinating. Can you talk about the difference about there's a difference between spontaneous and responsive desire and how communication plays a role in both of those can you explain what they are firstly and how it plays out in a relationship.
Yeah.
Absolutely, desire, which is our wish and our want for sex, our drive for sex, our inclination towards having sex. Issues of desire, low desire, mismatched desire are actually the number one reason people seek sex therapy. So I understand desire in a relationship is a huge topic and feels like a huge problem for people. So I do like to explain this idea of spontaneous and responsive desire. Spontaneous desire is what I think people think of when they think
of desire. It's that, you know, I'm just going about my day and I have a sexy thought or urge or feeling, or I think, damn, I wish my partner was home, or I can't wait till he gets home and we're going to do this and that tonight. So that is spontaneous desire. Responsive desire, on the other hand, is what happens when I hear people say things like I don't really think about sex during the day. I feel like I could kind of take it or leave it.
But when I start to engage with sexual stimuli, the things that kind of get me going, whether that's a toy or pornography or my partner or whatever it is. I start to engage with those things, and then the wish the desire shows up. Once I'm kind of getting going, my body is like, oh yeah, I kind of like this. I kind of feel like this now, I kind of want this now. What we now know about desire is that the majority of desire experiences in adults, particularly adults
in long term relationships, is actually experienced responsively. So most of our desire is responsive, meaning that it'll only show up when it's got something to respond to. There's some studies that have come out recently that estimate that for women, about seventy five percent of their experiences of desire are responsive, and for men the number is still close to fifty percent, About forty five to fifty percent of the time desire
is responsive for men. So we know that a huge amount of the ways in which we will desire sex or want sex are really when it's got some pleasure to respond to. The desire will show up when it's got something to show up for. So I really like to help people who come to me for issues of desire to really kind of slip it on its head rather than working on wanting sex more, Let's give it something to want, Like, let's give your desire something to want and something worth showing up for.
Just bringing it back to my age group again, my my lovely middle aged women friends who are either pery or postmenopausal. A lot of them talk about about the spontaneous has completely gone. And you know what's the key? What how do I get back into wanting to have sex again? You know, and I know that that again it's as you would know, it's it is multi layered because you know, menopausal women sometimes things happen with dryness
and it becomes painful. But if you're you know, there's women that I know who've got young kids still, they're very busy, they're working, they've got a juggle and juggle and juggle of enormous things that they're trying to cope with, and they often feel like their husband just thinks about sex, where they're thinking about the kids, they're aging parents, their work,
what they're having for dinner. Like how does a woman get to the point where they even feel like having responsive desire where it's like I don't even know where to begin to become responsive to my husband.
Yeah, you know, the example that you gave the picture painted is such a common one. I really resonate with what you're describing there that when you describe that to me, I go, yeah, I don't know that I would feel like sex much either if I didn't feel like I could make room for pleasure. But also even just connection to my body, because that's something I see happening a lot, particularly for women at this stage of life, which is
me too. I'm in my forty so this is really speaking to me too, this busyness and this disconnection from our body and our sensory experience. So something I like to work with a lot, particularly for women, is this reconnection to sensation and moving the focus from how does my body look to how does this sensation make my body feel? And I actually get because I really I don't really understand the busyness of people's lives.
I actually get people to.
Practice this in really small, practical ways outside of the bedroom. First, this is just about noticing sensation, noticing what is it like to feel the water on my body in the shower, or to feel the sun on my skin, or to smell my morning coffee, or to dance and move my body to a certain song. Like this reconnection back to our senses, because most of us day to day are actually moving through the world pretty disconnected from my body.
And I'm sure you've had this experience. I know I have.
If I take a moment to kind of breathe and tune into my body, I often notice sensation I wasn't aware of.
It might be neutral or positive or negative. It could be, oh, I've actually got a headache, or actually.
You know, my back hurts, or whatever it is. But we're soorry disconnected from our body, we're not even noticing some of the information it's trying to give us. So this practicing, this habit of reconnecting with our senses but also reconnecting to just those micro moments of pleasurable sensation, that is where I would get people to start.
I love that. It's great action. It's a great action thing to do. So emotional safety plays a great role in sexual communication. How how can couples create that space or how you know some action items on that to create that emotional safe space for each other.
Yeah.
Absolutely, So there are a couple of really practical things I like to give couples particularly if they've gone through a period of feeling a bit disconnected or just falling into those habits we fall into where communication has maybe become a bit transactional and a bit logistic based rather than really kind of connecting.
A couple of.
Really practical things I like people to try are a daily appreciation practice. So appreciation for our partner is actually a really big predictor of relationship success, but also sexual connection, like genuinely appreciating things about each other, liking things about each other, and putting words to that. So this is
a little bit different to gratitude. We're talking about noticing our partner right, noticing something they do, appreciating something that we've seen them do that day, like admiration.
Admiration is a really nice word.
Actually, yeah, this idea of something I've noticed that I've liked, appreciated, admired. Get people to share that with each other on a daily basis in the evening. Another really practical thing I would like people to bring into their partnered communication is curiosity. It's such a it's really like a lost in long term relationships, Like at the start of a relationship, we're so curious about our partner everything they say is so fascinating, and we turn over every you know, every little every
little thing they share. We like hold it like a little precious jewel. But it doesn't take long before we're in that space where we are not really asking that many questions. Maybe we're making assumptions. Maybe they go to tell us something and we're like, yeah, yeah, you've told me already.
I know that story.
So I really understand falling falling into these habits.
Yeah, I know. Yeah, but oh my god, time you told me that in a day, Laura, in a day, I have to stop him.
But it's so important to me. I do it ten times because she hasn't heard me the first second or seventh age. Yeah, give it another crack.
Trust me, I've heard you, and we've had a conversation. And then I have to remind you, Honey, we had this conversation.
You need some patience. You need to have some patience with your.
Fellow I have.
I have maybe something, a little, a little thing to kind of tuck into your mind to help you foster more.
Curiosity is a term that I'm going to scratch.
You're most welcome is a term I'm going to borrow from John and Julie Gotman, who if you're not familiar with them, yes we love them godmother and godfather of everything relationships and love. They talk about this concept of bids for connection. Bids for connection are those little things we do to connect, to reach out with our partner.
And they give the example of like, imagine where you're sitting with your partner and you look out the wado and you see a boat right, and your partner's like, oh, look at that boat, and you go, oh yeah, you just go back to looking on your phone or reading or whatever you're doing yet to or you respond by going, look at that. Have you ever been on a sailboat? And maybe we could get a boat when we retire, and maybe we should sail And if you could sail anywhere,
where would you go? And you connect and you respond to that bid. Now we each make bids for connection in really different ways. My partner makes bids for connection by sending me like videos, reels, meme stuff like that during the day, right, And often they're really unfunny. They're not funny, and I'm busy and I'm like not that interested. But I learnt the hard way when I responded poorly ones to these videos.
I can't remember.
It was along the lines of like whatever, or that's not funny or I'm not interested. And I was with him in the room and he looked really hurt. And it was then that I was like, this is not about the video. It doesn't really matter what's in the video. This is a bid for connection. When someone shares a video, they're like, look at this. I saw this, or it was funny or it was interesting, and I thought of you, and I want us to experience together this video. And
that's what matters. How I respond is not about the video. It's about responding to him and his bid. And that's how we can foster more curiosity and connection with our partner. Really start to notice when they're making a bid, and be willing to respond to those bids really well. Most of the time we don't get it right all of the time, but most of the time.
And those bids and those acknowledging the admiration, and you know, verbally, you know, saying those sorts of things, is that what you would call well, I was going to say the non verbal forms of sexual communication. I guess it's you are actually speaking, but it's I guess it's the non sexual bids for communication, isn't It's not necessarily you're not talking about sex, you're not flirting. It's just those bids for attachment and acknowledging what they are. And yeah, I love that.
I think that's yeah.
Well, and getting to your partner, like your experience matters to me, like what you think, right and what you feel and what you experience matters to me. And you can see how that could translate sexually. Pretty pretty obvious that that would translate sexually.
So the non verbal forms of sexual communication, what is that?
So nonverbal forms of sexual communication occur both in sex but also outside of the bedroom. So I'll start outside of the bedroom. That is pretty simple. That is, of course, different ways in which we touch and engage with our partner's bodies with intention, you know, intentional caressing, touching, whatever you've got consent for, you know, that kind of touch in sex though, and this is really what we're talking about here. We're really looking for those cues of is
there that reciprocity? So what I mean by this is my partner turned towards me. Are we both reaching for each other? Are we making eye contact? Is their mutual energy exchange touch all of these kind of cues that we send to each other of like I'm in this, I'm engaged, I'm present, or I'm not. And I do this exercise sometimes with my young adult clients where I talk to them about when I'm talking about consent. I say to them, can you imagine a time that you
might engage with someone sexually? And they're saying verbally that say yes, but you have a sense that it's a no, And they go, yeah, I can imagine that, and I go, okay, tell me how, Like what could you imagine would be happening that would give you that niggerly feeling in your body? This person doesn't really want this, and that's what they start to think about. They talk about, you know, body language and eye contact and are they.
Touching me back?
And if I pull away from kissing for a moment, do they lean in and keep it going or do they look relieved and take a break. You know, all of these little cues that we send each other of like I'm really enthusiastic and I want this, or actually I could.
Leave this for now.
These are really important too. We're talking about achievement really and These are really important skills to develop as part of your sexual communication.
So how do you how do you counsel you know, couples that are the cues are being or maybe it's too sensitive, that one of them's being more sensitive than the other one to those cues.
Yeah, I get.
Them to reflect on real life experiences that they've had together. So tell me about times where you felt really connected or really present, or it felt really spicy, or like, what's the memory that sits there you lack, or that one time was really good And I get them to kind of unpack it or we get really kind of down into the nitty gritty of what was it that made that, you know, such a wonderful connective experience. Because
partner sex is very rarely for people about the orgasm. Right, when I ask people why they have sex with their partner, it's not really about the orgasm because frankly, most people can get to orgasm quicker on their own. So if we were just trying to get to orgasm, we probably
wouldn't bother involving a partner. So people are involving a partner because they want other emotional needs met, you know, they want the shared pleasure or the connection or the intimacy or the validation or the reassuredness or whatever it is.
So when I get people to really unpack the experiences with their partner that felt really connective, that's usually when they'll start to offer some clues about nonverbally, what was happening that was really giving them that sense that this was a really engaged, connective experience, and we use that we build on that.
Are they common like red flags in a couple's sexual communication that might indicate, oh, there's a lot more deeper issues at hand here.
Yeah, absolutely, certainly if one or both partners are finding the topic, you know, distressing, too distressing, So that's when someone might become what we call flooded. Really flooded is essentially a term to capture like an overwhelm of the nervous system, where once we're in that state, we kind of can't really do that well cognitively, we're too overwhelmed
by our emotion once that is present. I mean, I encourage people anyway that if that happened in any conversation, you need to take a break, because nothing good happens when we are in that flooded state.
But I would say. The other thing that is kind of.
Something that we need to be addressed in communication is if people are reverting to what we call safety seeking behaviors. Safety seeking behaviors are the things that we do when we feel like we need to protect ourselves. So we do that when the topic is sensitive or we feel like we're being criticized or something like that, and we'll go to these safety seeking behaviors if we're not aware
of them. Some examples of safety seeking include shutting down, stone walling, defensiveness, yelling, blaming, criticizing, all of these things that we do that are designed to just protect ourselves. They are the opposite of some of the things we were talking about before, like curiosity or appreciation or admiration or positive touch validation. They are the polar opposites.
There, Laura, how can individuals who feel shame and or embarrassment around sex begin to shift from that?
Yeah, I think this is a great question, because, of course, shame is a challenge for so many people, and a lot of people have stuff, shame stuff attached to sex.
I do think it can be.
Really helpful to cultivate a very sex positive culture for yourself, a sex positive environment. So that can be things like following certain people on social media, listening to podcasts, attending workshops, having more open conversations with people you trust, just cultivating environment where you are gently but more exposed to sex positivity, and that can help you start to unlearn maybe some of the sex negative ideas or scripts, the things that
have triggered that shame. It can help you start to unlearn them, but in a really safe, contained kind of way. So that would be one of the first steps that I would want for people. The second step is going to be though, that if you're in a relationship that open communication with a partner, and if you need skills to build sexual communication, there's loads of resources, of course out there.
And professionals you can see. But being able to cultivate a spirit of.
Openness, of curiosity, of growth, and of play in your relationship is going to be so rewarding and healing. You know, that's where we heal. Like humans are connective social creatures. We can't heal on our own, and we don't thrive and grow on our own.
We thrive in our relationships.
Laura, thank you so much. Can people can reach you on your website? They can book in with you to see you, and obviously I don't know if you're busy, busy busy. I know you've got clients lined up after us, but we can reach you on your website. Do you do retreat or anything like that as well.
I do a range of things. I do therapy and coaching packages.
But I also I really understand that therapy isn't kind of suitable or accessible for everyone.
So I actually also.
Have created a online membership program where people can access me and my content, videos, blogs, webinars, other ways of working with me for.
A couple of dollars a month.
So I felt like this was something this was really close to my heart because I knew therapy wasn't suitable or accessible for everyone, and I wanted people to still have access to really high quality education and resources. So that's another way people can work with me, and they can check that out if anything from today has resonated for them.
Fantastic, and we do that where at Laura Lee dot com.
Absolutely, I have a website which is Laura Lee dot com dot au and on Instagram you can find me at Laura Lee Sexology.
Fantastic.
We'll put all that info as well. In our show notes, thank you.
Thank you so much for this. This was so fun.
And thank you yeah, thanks for all your wisdom. You've really explained things in a very easy going, simple way. That's been really fascinating. Thanks so much for your time.
Oh I'm so pleased.
Thank you again.