Episode 88- Exploring ICARUS the View Limiting Training Device with Nick Sonopoli and Matt Johnson

So he showed me the Icarus device out there in Austin and I was hooked when I first saw it . So he and I have been talking off and on about the product and you know How beneficial it is to the industry and and I wanted to bring him on the podcast to talk about how revolutionary it is and What , what he's doing to make our industry safer .

And to do that we brought Matt Johnson on . Matt is a check airman with Metro aviation who we love , as you all know . So excited to hear you know about his experience as a check airman , as a pilot there . And he's got some experience as a police pilot flying missions in his area . And , of course , we've got Jeff . What's going on , jeff ? What's up ?

buddy doing ? well ? Yeah , happy to have you guys all here . So , yeah , nick and Matt , how you guys doing good , good down here in Austin , texas . You're making your way back there .

You know we're in the middle of a huge snowstorm and he was saying they had , you know , very little snow up there and fast forward to today , so they haven't had rain in quite a long time . And you know , you got these huge fires .

So I feel like Southern California and the Canadian region have flipped , fought for for weather patterns , which is really hot anyways . Again , thankful to have you guys here . Thanks for joining us . I said this conversation will be really cool to talk about the You know device you've come up with and what that's doing to make our industry safer .

Before we do that , let's let's get into drink the day . I know Jeff's off today , so he's I don't think he's got the high quality H2O . I think I see something little , a little better over there . Let you kick it off today , jeff . What do you got ?

my old partner , jake from Corona PD , his uncle , came out for right along with us years ago and he sent this really cool bottle .

it was like in a , in a Pelican case with glasses and everything , and so I just I actually this is the end of it right here , so and I'll toast in his uncle's memory because he passed away recently , i saw on Facebook , so Anyway . so yeah , having a little bit of rum and coke tonight , all right , well , cheers .

and sure enough , and we did , and he had a great time , and then I think it was I don't remember if it was for my birthday or what but anyway He sent up this really nice case and I was like , oh , what's this ? and you open it up . He makes the those cases , those like waterproof , like Pelican , like cases .

Hey ?

So when we we start off , matt will start with you and then we'll go to Nick . So again , just want to put Matt there in the hot seat just for just for a minute . See , see if you can squirm it all . But you know , these are just the you know fun little questions that get the brain juices Blowing . Nothing , nothing real serious .

So the first questions what items you hope will be obsolete in 20 years ? Oh wow .

We pay plenty of money in taxes , yet They still find a way to charge you more going through the toll roads and like why are we paying ? like five times ? It doesn't make any sense . So I feel your pain there .

I guess they don't go that fast , but I don't know why you have to be in the fast lane , i think it's like Pima County Sheriff's Department or something like that .

And one guy you know He stopped him and he's like , well , I was doing the speed limit and he's like , yeah , That's not the point , like you're supposed to be in . You know not driving in the fast lane And you know it's not your job to hold up traffic right , you know , yeah , creating hazard by going slow , so I'm gonna smash in the back .

Looks like a three-year-old with a pencil , yeah , so I wish I could get rid of handwriting like I type everything I possibly can , because I hate C-Mail and writing when it's the absolute worst .

But let's just start with talking about you know how you got an aviation as a kid . Nick will start with you .

I'm like three or four , so it's kind of something I always knew I wanted to do and , yeah , started flying . I think I was 17 . My mom wouldn't let me start flying . Toes 16 was just a little bit too much . Driving and flying would have probably not been good at one time .

So , yeah , started when I was 17 and I was trying to work Whatever I could pizza shops or ice cream and to fart around no 172 and you know To you , when you're 17 , you've never done it before like the 170 , you know , a sessna is the coolest thing ever .

I don't remember anything outside the window , i was just more Fascinated with what was going on , you know the guy that was flying and how everything worked , an entire Fascination of the flight so kind of never looked back from there It was several years later , before I pursued aviation .

I knew that was something that I would always do , but I had , at the time , a love of law enforcement from a very young age . Well , the route that I took early on was ?

As soon as I was old enough to go to the police academy , i did and did about every position there was Held . About every position there was the holding law enforcement .

and you were like I'm at Disney World on vacation . I was just like thank you , for I'm just so happy that you're taking the vacation because you're busy .

The sheriff is a wonderful man And you know if he needs something he calls . and you know real small unit , four or five guys and just two aircraft . But I did fly full-time law enforcement for a while . But yeah , in my law enforcement career I got stupid and got promoted .

I had to push for that And , like I said , i did a lot of different things in law enforcement . It was a great career . Don't regret it . I wouldn't work law enforcement today you know , as you know , say , road patrol or any other you know uniformed or even investigative position . But I truly love law enforcement , flying for sure .

And while I was in law enforcement I started flying Because , like I said , i had that aviation bug right And I knew I wanted to do helicopters And I had a few people push and say , well , you know they're really expensive , of course , why don't you start in airplanes and kind of do that ?

you know the add-on raiding route and you know , get some good aviation , aeronautical experience in airplanes . And I really hate admitting this publicly , but I did start with airplanes and I am an airplane-rated pilot . I just can't believe I'm saying .

so then I went to the helicopter route and never looked back 20 plus years ago , got all my ratings and was very forced to very bless . I've been so blessed I'm incredible opportunities . I've worked really hard for all of it .

So talk about a tide . tide turning there , going from law enforcement flying for the media . Yeah , the hell , was I thinking so ? But , anyway , that was a lot of fun . I did some ag work not like anything cool , just like corn pollination stuff . A lot of flight instruction . And then , like I said , 13 years air medical now , which it goes so fast .

What a wonderful position that is .

You know , like Jeff , seven on , seven off , probably , and then on my off days , no such thing I am a check airman for the company , for Metro , been incredibly , you know , blessed and humbled at the opportunities they've given me And we'll never be able to say enough good about metro aviation letting me pursue a lot of passions .

That's benefiting a lot of our pie . All of our pilots really like the relationship we have with Nick and bringing his incredible product on . So my off days I'm doing the check airman thing And also one of our gatekeepers at Metro and our Fokwa program , our flight operations quality assurance . So there's , there's three of us .

What an amazing , kick ass program that is . That without a doubt . there's no doubt in my mind and my heart that that program saves lives . So the three of us act as gatekeepers . So when , when a parameter is recorded

and there are hundreds in our aircraft . They're recorded and they're outside of a tolerance or parameter . That is looked at , you know , verified it's not , you know no false flag , so to speak . And then that gets sent to us by the lead Fokwa folks , their Metro , to one of the three gatekeepers , and we reach out Jeff had an excessive bank on something .

We reach out and say , hey , man , it's , it's pilot to pilot , it's not , it doesn't go to leadership team or anything like that , unless it's , of course , some egregious act . But we reach out pilot to pilot and say , hey , you know , one of your flights got flagged and we talk about it .

And you know , a lot of times it's very I don't really want to say benign , it's something like , you know , as a hypothetical Jeff says , yeah , no , rolled into a really tight bank there . I was on an orbit , on a scene And next thing , i know I almost hit some birds and instinct kicked in and oh hell , you know he pulls a cyclic over .

So but that's how we find out And it picks up a lot of things And it's it's a wonderful program and Metro has invested so much in that And I knew about it before I became a gatekeeper , but once I had the opportunity to become a gatekeeper . I really saw the magnitude of that And , wow , it's phenomenal .

So that is that's very near and dear to me to be part of that program . So on my off days that's one of the things that I you know engaged in . And then one of the many other things is I don't make it down for all of our new hire classes , but I try to get down for as many as I can and do a weather program .

I'm kind of kind of the company weather geek , if you will , very passionate about weather . It wasn't always that way .

I was like most pilots , like I just you mentioned weather and you know , like sweats breaking out on my forehead like , oh you know , and and it's because overall the industry not necessarily medical , but just aviation in general does not do a good job preparing pilots to understand weather .

We try to get meteorologists , or I should say we try to get pilots to think like meteorologists and be meteorologists , and we need to get meteorologists to think and talk like pilots , and that's , you know , that's one of the things that I've been blessed with the opportunity to do and develop some custom courses for our new hire pilots to teach them , you know ,

weather product acquisition , interpretation and application , and that's that's the name of the course that we do . So we're teaching them where to find these products and how to use them and apply them , and Metro has spared no expense when it comes to , you know , giving their men and women the best tools and weather tools that they can .

So , you know , with the weather program , i'll also , you know , combine that with four flight . You know 600 pilots you know so a lot of pilots and we use four flights , so kind of become one of the go to four flight guys for the company and been fortunate to do some projects with the company .

I guess four years ago we were the first that I know of that geo referenced all of our point in space approaches and departures , going in and out of hospitals .

So now we have that luxury of having that , that situational awareness , right on our iPad , so really been involved in a lot of little projects like that behind the scenes that has just been amazing for me and people a lot of times say Hey you know that classic question where do you want to be in five years ? And it's exactly where I am right now .

I don't want to do anything different . I just want to keep everything I can to keep our guys are men and women safe get myself home , safe and the wonderful crews I fly with . Get them home safe to their family . So lots of opportunities to network and bring awesome people in like Nick and his product .

I'll never I'll just never forget how that all unfolded and what a great venture that has been .

It's so bizarre because you have big companies and then you have companies that have a family feel , and rarely do you have those two combined And Metro has certainly grown the eight years of experience I have with them , but it's , it's amazing . You know I'll go down .

Of course , some probably down there more than just other guys that may fly the line because of the other duties that I have . And you know it's amazing . You know the owner of the company may see you two or three times a year and he remembers your name .

You know I mean holy hell , i mean that's yeah , that's amazing because there's a lot of us And you know they have grown and they've gotten large and I remember , you know , I came down with the China virus twice .

And each time the owner of the company calls me on the phone And he called every one of his men and his women that came down with that virus and he checked on it . And there was a lot of us . I mean , let's , let's face it , everyone probably had it once or twice at some point , right , but he took the time out of his day the call us .

You know , for me that resonated with me . You know , i'm not not just Matt Johnson , i'm not just another employee number . I truly believe they care about their people , and I'm not just saying that because I'm wearing their shirt or , like I said , they signed my paycheck . It's not about that .

It's , you know , it's like Nick's story , which I'm sure you'll get into And and , and you know Nick can explain the history if he wants , of course .

But a day that we met in Shreveport And we had the discussion , and I remember you know administration going down the hall , the Mr Stambury's office , and saying , you know , we need this and this is why and this is a game changer And this is the perfect compliment that we've been looking to to fill that void between simulator training which is invaluable , as we

all know . and then training in the field , and I'll be there . I mean , mike Stambury didn't bat an eye . You know he's like it's going to keep our people safe . You say it's , it's legit , it's good , make it happen . And I was like , wow , you know , because of course I was the guy that done all the field testing and put my name on this , you know .

So I was sweating bullets . I was like , come on , Nick , don't let me down , man , you know and . I knew he wouldn't , because I knew it was an amazing kick ass product And because I was the guy sitting left seat and BK 117s and EC 145s for I don't know what , nick , 30 , 40 , 50 hours of field testing if you will .

And you know , and taking feedback from our people to the higher up , so , so impressed with that whole process and that they they are so legit and caring about getting us the best products and training and trying to make it all you know come together So yeah , i think there's .

I would put it in safety and I would put it , sure , towards a device like what you've created , nick . So , yeah , well , it's , it's , it's revolutionary , like Matt said , it's , it's . this is something that's going to change . It has changed the industry And then , undoubtedly , it's already saved lives and it's going to continue to to do that .

So , you know , that's one of the reasons when I first met you and you're talking about the device that you create , i'm like holy , holy crap , this is cool . You know something that is , you know , like I said , revolutionary . Can you just hop into it , nick ? I'd like to .

Can you talk about what , what the device is for for people that are unfamiliar with it ?

So in helicopters the most important thing and what Metro saw the value in is you can simulate via far into IMC inadvertent IMC Some people are trying to make you IMC , unintended IMC , trying to happen , whatever you want to call it . you flew into a cloud or weather that you didn't expect to And now you've got to .

you know execute , execute an emergency procedure and get yourself safe . So it's got three basic components . The meat and potatoes of it is a visor . It's real simple . It uses something called Palmer's Burst Liquid Crystal Film , which is basically just . I can run a little electric current through it and I can make it perfectly clear or opaque .

It's got a little carbon fiber visor and that mounts to your helmet or the BIM Brem of a baseball hat . It's got a a little power control unit that's about the size of a deck of cards .

that powers it And you can you can manually control it and then a smart , smart app that lets you also control it from , say , the right seat of the , you know the left seat of the helicopter . So somebody like Matt on a check ride can can really test you .

It's really easy to use from . It seems like both the operator you know the wear of the device and then for someone like Matt who's controlling , you know the visibility that's taking place . You talk about that a little bit .

He'd always tell me , you know , the most elegant solution is the one that's the simplest . Other stuff is going to be going on . So making an app that is simple and never crashes and easily works is important . For the visor , which is the big piece that I designed . I mean , i went through candidate after candidate , that you know , an iteration after iteration .

I went to school for Aeronautical Engineering and aviation . You know it's like I never wasn't sitting in school , you know , desperately trying to pass a class , being like , oh yeah , i made a design , a pilot train device someday . But in aerospace , you , you want to make everything light . That's the number one .

I remember they were paying people like $1,000 a pound or something crazy for the F 35 . If you're an engineer and you could take a pound out , you got to , you know , a check .

So I make it lightweight because you know there's a safety aspect to it , there's a comfort aspect to it , but from a simulation point of view it's it's like two and a half ounces , so it's light enough that I can get you to forget that you're wearing it .

If I get you to forget that you're wearing it when Matt gives you IMC , you're going to have to go through that whole process and you're going to replicate the most dangerous part of it , which is the startle effect . That's right .

the act of doing that , so there's no startle effect like you're talking about .

So you know that you're in training and you're know that something else is happening and it's taking you out of the out of the simulation And it's it's breaking the fourth wall .

I think the easiest thing that we can point to for people to understand what happens when you fly into clouds is the Kobe Bryant crash And I think , as tragic as that was , i think that's kind of the impetus that our industry needed to really make some changes And again that change is coming through , likes your product , you know .

and I want to go back to something that , matt , you brought up and and again I'll say , you know , from the hangers podcast point of view , again , we're like Matt , there's no , you know , financial incentive for us to bring Nick or Matt on here to talk about this .

When we started talking to Nick about this , this is something I felt strongly about that we need to to bring the public , and I mean , to be honest , you guys have already done that . You guys have done a really good job of marketing the device and and getting it out there .

But I want to , you know , do what I can to make sure that people are aware of this program , this device , so that , you know , potentially we can continue to make our industry better .

But you know , going back to the bootstrapping thing , everybody loves a good American entrepreneurial story , you know , and your story when we sat down and talked , remind me of of of Steve Jobs and Apple and , like you know , the whole , the whole concept of building out of your garage which you literally Doing , you know , it's really cool .

So , nick , can you just talk about how You know ? let's go back and talk about how the concept came to be and like how you've bootstrapped your way to this point .

It was , you know , i Got , i got the idea and started kind of the business when I was 25 and was just kind of this , at this very big inflection point in my life and you know , as Matt alluded to like , i had a , the most , the only real possession of any value I had . I had a little car .

I was a little silver Porsche Boxster that pulled out of a barn in van cleave , mississippi , for $5,000 and I'd kind of fix it Say . Prius .

That's about how much the patent Attorneys asked before it's like let's go , i'll tell you when especially when you're you're that young and dumb You think it's gonna be easy street like hey , i got this good idea , somebody's gonna come along , be like thank you , i'm gonna . Here's a big check . You know , see , on the beach .

That's not what happened , but I also kind of grew up with it . You know it was a lot of long nights . I can remember very specifically where I was in life when Matt called . I was in as it for still Oklahoma at Artillery school for the army and I've been there for six months .

I was there for six or seven months and was not really a high point in , i guess , my life . Like you know , living out hotel room She guns is shooting big cannons is fun for a bit , but then your ears hurt .

Building a proof of concept Isn't that hard . Getting to something that you can sell and a business and developing all that stuff is Kind of the where the real exercise is . You know there's this kind of I wish I could say like I never looked back But or , you know , was never had any doubts .

But it was very comforting when somebody like Matt called and You know he didn't know me from madam , he just read a very nice piece that a lot had had done in vertical . After . You know , i basically just told her I got an idea . Here's some CAD drawings of it .

You know I've worked on a proof of concept but I did not want a picture of that printed in a magazine .

It was not very pretty , but to hear somebody and I think how it went , matt was like you're , like , you know , you gave me a little bit of your background and you were like I think we need this , you know , or like I think this is could be great , and every time which there was a couple , you know , every year , from about 2015 to 2020 ish you know there

was something that happened that was just like man , it's hard to kind of keep putting yourself out there and just getting punched in the face , but then it would come out and , as you know , i'd go back to you know that phone call with Matt and be like I gotta just kind of keep .

You know , i think that the , the concept is , is the same and , you know , went through a bunch of different iterations . I started with kind of like a foggle method , you know , my thought being that the barriers to entry and like a Cessna , are much lower than in a , like a military helicopter or a big helicopter .

And then , around 2018 I kind of 2017 , 2018 I made the decision to focus a little bit more on the helicopter side and then , in 2020 , you know , we finally got to bring the systems to market and now it's it's actually just one system now . So last fall we kind of combined the product lines . The helicopter version is much more .

It's much better designed , it's much more resilient , it's it's customers are happier . But you know I I didn't keep every single iteration , but it was always the you know what version are we on and I wish I would have done a little bit better track keeping track of them .

But yeah , i went through a bunch of different ones and It sucked for a long time , like the actual device , like it would work . But you know , the first power control units were , you know , huge , like the size of a loaf of bread , almost Built with Radio Shack components , and I guess I'm dating myself to radio Shacks or no more .

I remember the start , my parents house Garage , and then I actually kind of kind of moved in with one of my buddies back in Austin back when I was just kind of I was just , you know , bumming around working on Icarus This is kind of funny I would listen to . I remember 2015 , like summer of 15 . Listen to Eminem's lose yourself Every day .

When I was driving in and I had all my stuff at my buddy , mitchell's house That's cool , mitchell's mom's house actually shout out That's actually the name of our fantasy football league .

But and I had no idea what I was doing and I was just kind of trying everything and just keeping , keeping working on it and You know , you get a little bit farther down the road , yeah .

Can you talk about where you are currently and how the program is being adopted Maybe that's a good question for Matt , but we'll start with you , nick and how it's being adopted throughout different programs in the world .

You know It's just corresponding with people in New Zealand and you know it's a , not a program That's unique to American helicopter pilots . No , right now the name of the game is a lot of what I focus on is I , i still , i still put everyone together and you know I don't build all the components . I have vendors and stuff like that .

But you know , keeping the production line rolling and making sure people get them in a timely manner is Probably my number one focus .

One of the big goals for this summer is to take that BFR into IMC training that you have had some success in in the helicopter industry and bring it to the , to GA , to guys that guys and gals that are not professional pilots , that own airplanes and use them for kind of private stuff , because

I always say the problem is much more acute in helicopters . But we killed , just as you know , just to make people die in airplane accidents when they fly into clouds Unexpectedly and and it's a problem We're trying to work on over there .

So that's our big foot push for this year and this summer we're taking to Oshkosh , we'll be in the private proficiency center and just kind of we have a little bit . You know , every day you get more of a leg to stand on . You know it took .

It took people that were gonna , you know , willing to bet on an idea and be on leaning edge , like Matt , like Metro aviation , and You know there's a couple , quite a few other , like police departments and stuff like that , where they were like I , you know I believe in this idea and then it was just me to make sure that they they didn't run away because of

I couldn't get them on something that were yeah , This is probably a good point , Matt , to go to switch to you and talk about some of the stats .

Chris Hill , director of safety at HAI , and Nick Mayhew , united States helicopter safety team just a bunch of fine folks Produce the 52nd 56 seconds to live program . I don't know what is a year ago , nick .

I think like yeah , like a year and a half maybe a year ago , was an online course and , you know , professionally produced and perfect length , of course , and just so eye-opening , and Some of the stats in there were very sobering .

And , to answer your question , you know it's like you when you pair up overall loss of control and then you know double IMC And , as I think Nick alluded to , i mean , you hear you IMC , whatever the hell you want to call it , it's being where you did not intend to be in the clouds , but you're looking at about .

I mean , i think those two combined , you know , loss of control and IMC as factors .

If I recall it was like around 40% of Talents , around 35 , 37% , something like that , which is what one is too many , but that's a , that's a staggering Yeah , yeah for sure We can do a lot better and and I think that that course , that program , that they , those entity , those , those groups put together HAI and United States helicopter safety team , they , you

know that's one of those programs . I think I'm big on mentorship and I'm mentoring a new pilot who started training recently , who reached out to me and read one of my articles on mentoring and passing the torch , so to speak , and She's like 10 , 15 hours in and she goes .

You know what's my unofficial assignment for the week , you know , and I center that link complete this course as soon as you can , and we're gonna talk about it the next time We have a meeting . You know , i'm not her flight instructor , i'm simply her , her mentor . Again , those numbers are are eye-opening and and sad .

what a great thing to have to put on and then introduce them in their instrument training , their planned episode of being in the clouds but still to throw them that curveball , if you will , and introduce double IMC . from that perspective , incorporate that in the training .

And I've done some unique things outside with private clients that have hired me and I've used my own NICRAS device And I think Nick may have used some of these videos and some of his material , but you know we talk about instrument training and auto rotation and how you handle that .

I use the ECRAS for that , that maneuver for several iterations And it's , it's nice because you can go to altitude and the pilot that's undergoing the training can be in IMC conditions .

You introduce that simulated engine failure and with a tap of you know the button , the VMC red safety button on the app , i can tap that and that pilot , can , you know , break out at two or 300 feet and be , you know , essentially unrestricted visibility , and then complete , depending on the type of training we're doing , you know , power recovery or touchdown auto

rotation . So I think there's a lot of . I think we're just honestly , i think I think we're just scratching the surface of the capabilities of the ECRAS device and that technology in general . But at the end of the day it's the startle effect and introducing that .

We know from our law enforcement careers and the non aviation side of how the startle effect works and critical incidents And we've seen that maybe you know some of us been involved where you know something happens , you're startled and your response is delayed .

You know whether that be to a critical incident or life or death , use of force , situation or whatever , and the startle effect is there And we we dealt with that , i know , in law enforcement I'm dating myself here . You know the old fats simulation trainers , right ? Yeah , i'm sure there's a lot better now than there was 25 years ago .

Yeah , You know , and the return of the investment's huge . I think about my experience , Warren Foggles , when it was a check the box type thing , like something had to do to get your private and commercial . It isn't that way with your device . The return of investment with your device is actual training . That's something you're benefiting from .

So you know , while it's obviously more expensive than Foggles , it's not that expensive in the grand scheme of things and the return of investments huge .

I'm very proud of the fact , for example , like I don't gouge my military customers . My military customers play the same , it doesn't matter who you are . Pay $1,250 for Nicker's device . I have a warranty . I want to sell you something that I stand behind . The overarching goal was that fatal accident rate and reducing that . And you're never going to .

You know , if just the people that fly $5-10 million helicopters get to can afford it , you're never going to affect it . You know , without making something that works for everybody .

They weren't going to spend that money because you know they're not going to put you through the class , they're not going to pay for travel , they're not going to put you up in a hotel , so there's all these expenses that go along with it . So you know , the department's answer was , well , just don't fly in the clouds .

And you're like , okay , that's yeah , that's great . I should have thought of that . But you know , yeah , but $1,200, . You know , to have a device that everybody can use , you know you can simulate this stuff , as you know , almost in real , i mean as realistically as possible , i think is probably more beneficial . And you know , i know Metro has simulators .

You know all the big operators now have simulators And that's a great tool . But , like Matt was getting to , you can't . There's some things that you just can't simulate in the simulator that you , you know that you can do in the aircraft . And for again for $1,200 , i mean that's a small drop in the bucket for what benefits you get from it ?

You know a lot of agencies now are upgrading aircraft and getting auto pilots and stability augmentation And most of the you know big operators in the EMS world have gone to all auto pilots and you know I always say knock on wood and knock on the wall here . But you know our company has not had a fatal inadvertent IMC event Since we installed this equipment .

Now we have had inadvertent IMC events but it's almost become a non-event And a couple of them have . The pilots have struggled with , you know , through that startle effect And you know the crews kind of talked them back into reality and to stop fighting the autopilot and the stability augmentation .

And I think that's where the Icarus device is really going to fit . That you know , being able to simulate that startle effect and also , just , you know , not just like oh , hey , we're flying along and then all of a sudden , boom , it goes .

You know , zero , zero , but being able to slowly degrade visibility through the device , which is really more common , right , guys , keep pushing on , pushing on and then boom , then they're in it . And again , you can't simulate that with the foggles .

You can do it in the simulator , but then you're also not getting all the other you know sensations that you're getting by actually flying . So you know I think that I mean $1,200 , anybody should be able to . You know any agency , anybody that's operating an aircraft . If you can't spend $1,200 to buy a device like this , you might want to reconsider your life .

You know , because of , unfortunately , because of things like the Kobe Bryant accident , even if you're not a pilot , you understand it's dangerous And but what I've kind of since realized and kind of grown as a pilot myself is is being able to simulate something like that , that reduction of visibility and getting people to make that weather decision and in training ,

saying I'm going to land , i'm going to turn around , or if you are in an IFR-rated ship , just pick up an IFR clearance , the you know the weather's coming down and they make a positive decision , to say I'm going to proactively do something that you know might affect you and you're going to land somewhere . You didn't intend to land and whatever .

But but being able to simulate that as realistically as possible while you're actually flying , while the blades are turning , you know the aircraft's rumbling , you're getting the smell of gas and all that stuff , is very important .

you know , and you you kind of made reference to that . One thing I want to bring up and I think there's maybe a little bit of misconception , and I know this from my own agency .

the thought was like well , you know , we're not going to have an instructor pilot with us , you know being able to or utilize this device all the time , and you don't have to have an instructor pilot with you to utilize this . Can you talk about some of the protocols and how you actually utilize it in flight ?

You know I I'm really happy There's , there's some agencies out there and I'll see that they're doing kind of opportunity training and throwing it on making the most out of what what they have . And it doesn't necessarily always need to be a check ride with an instructor pilot or a check airman .

I call them kind of more of the benign scenarios where you're just trying to practice like an instrument approach and and maintaining your proficiency and you know so going out there and making the most out of your training . it's not just you know how much money does your department have

and it's making the most out of it , and Icarus is just a tool that in in that toolbox . you know there's some stuff that ground based simulators are great for There's . you know you need to have a good academic program and understanding of stuff to to really prepare that pilot properly .

So making it something that people you know and it's not necessarily that people don't want to get good training or most realistic training is like I don't want to wear this stupid thing that looks like you know what my dog gets when they come back from the vet .

So you know , having something that's cool and unique and , you know , special , that hey , like we're going to take the initiative and and then use it when we don't necessarily like have to use it to check a block is important .

Your device , there's , you know , so many applications outside of . You know , just check the box . This is something that keeps you proficient , helps keep you proficient . You know , hopefully we'll put that startle effect at bay , you know , and make the time when you unintentionally go into the clouds .

Hopefully that never happens , but if it does , you know you've , you've put yourself in a position of times to where you know exactly how to respond . So I love all of that Kind of . In closing here I'd just like to have you go over where you see the future of Icarus .

So we want to be those guys that are out there trying to get people good training but having a little fun with it . We don't have to tease anything . But probably the next improvements will be on the software side or the app side .

So , like , if you're flying an approach down to minimums and you've got it set to the minimums , does the you know instructor have to then bring the visibility back up , or is it ? can you do it automatically ?

It's very much designed so that that was . That was one of the two goals was total visual occlusion , which is why you know they're fit to helicopter , you know fit to the aircraft and you know it took a lot of trial and error to get it the right dimensions . But the second was total control . So you know the way that the app is structured . It's .

It's very simple , but you can . You can set transition times and you can adjust the the visibility presets . So , and that's something where we want to improve and give people maybe a bit more functionality in , and I think that's a good opportunity for that one , or it's still kind of in the works .

So I could ask you for one coming up with a device , but two having the interest and the fortitude to stick with the decision and all the hardships that came with , you know , trying to bring this to market .

And now that it's at market and you're starting to get some traction , we're in your corner rooting for you and we're really excited to see where this goes , and thank you for doing that . That's huge .

Thank you all three for being you know , being my friend , and being believers and and , yeah , just having fun with it over here . I guess I'm trying to say it's been a journey , you know , like I hope I don't have to go . The best time I never want to go through again is get the thing off the ground .

You know , so many times , like I said , you know we do stuff in the simulators or we do stuff that's not like necessarily in the aircraft that we fly every day . I think back to like doing autos , you know , going over in a training aircraft , not actually doing it in our aircraft .

So that that familiarity that you have with your aircraft and stuff like that is huge because , again , when you go into inadvertent IMC it's going to be in that aircraft . You should be training in that aircraft specifically .

You know the simulator is great for procedural training , i think , but it doesn't , it doesn't fly like the real aircraft and everybody says that you know and that's done it . So I don't . I think it's the best $1,200 somebody will spend is on the Icarus device .

So and like you said , lowering the barrier for people to get this device in their hands and use it is huge .

And I mean that just shows that you're doing this for the right reasons , because you know , yeah , you could charge a boatload of money for these things And you know , obviously people would still buy it , the government obviously would still buy it , and you're not doing that because it's it's that important to you .

And again , it's been a pleasure to get to know you and and follow your journey And you know we're , we're I'm excited to see where , where it goes from here , because I think you know you're just going to keep improving it And as more people get their chance to use it , it's just going to keep , you know , expanding into the hopefully into the general aviation

world , you know , for flight schools and everything else . So kudos to you for that . And , matt , it was a pleasure to meet you .

You know , keep doing what you're doing over there And it's , i think , the validity in the product is when you have somebody like Matt , you know , come on and and talk about it , person that doesn't have a financial gain in it is is just a that's a huge feather in your cap .

I think to have somebody like you know , Metro aviation behind the product and using it and believing in it . I don't think you can get much better street credit than that .

it was 2021 and it was very hard to find a rental car last minute from to drive from Dallas And I ended up going solo and I'm just I'll never forget driving there and being like you know and psyching myself up and knowing that you know , hey , we're going to , you know you're there to make the deal .

And I cannot say enough good things about them because I'm not a big company I don't have , i didn't have this down before I got there . you know my sales pitch or anything like that but they saw the value and they knew the value of their people and and keeping them safe and they invested in it .

and that , like , i look back on it now and I'm like I don't know how I would get to where we are today without without their , their support and their their backing best in the business , yeah .

You know that's a big thing that we touch on in the podcast , but kudos to you for you know , making yourself available to be a mentor to people Uh , i hardly believe we're never too busy to to take a mentor under our wings

and to , you know , make the next generation , uh , better . That's right , and our goal is is to leave our our place better than we found it , and it's pretty cool to see you doing that .