And so a mantra I think good nonfiction writers adopt is make it about them. Make it about your readers. Make it about serving them and forefronting their needs, their dreams, their hopes, their fears. And if you do that, a concept is going to resonate a lot more.
Welcome to the Habit podcast conversations with writers about writing. I'm Jonathan Rogers. Your host, Will Parker Anderson, is a senior editor at Waterbrook Multnomah, a division of random House publishing. He's also the proprietor of a Substack called Writer's Circle, in which he provides tips on the writing craft and seeks to demystify the publishing industry. In this episode, Will and I talk about the three legs of publishing platform, content,
and concept. Will Parker Anderson, I'm so glad to have you on The Habit podcast. Thanks for being here.
Yeah, thanks for having me, I appreciate it.
Yeah. Um, as I was telling you right before we started recording, I have typically made it a practice not to talk about publishing on the Habit podcast. But, you know, I was looking at your Substack and saw some of the interesting things you had to say about publishing and decided, let's do publishing, let's talk about publishing. So, uh, editing and publishing, uh, you are an editor at, um, Waterbrook.
That's right. Waterbrook and Multnomah. Yeah.
Yeah. And you've just recently started a or maybe I should say, restarted a Substack, uh, called The Writer's Circle. Tell me about that.
Absolutely. So in my day job, you know, I'm working with authors who mainly come to us through agents. And so they normally have established audiences and platforms. What's missing from my day job is getting to develop other writers and honestly, just rub elbows with other writers, something I love. Uh, people, when you're an editor, you know, people tend to approach you and have questions about how does this work? And even yesterday I got a text from a friend saying, hey,
can you read my friend's book? That happens a lot. So I just wanted to create a space that was safe where there's no cool kids, there's no inside crowd. Elite inner circle. That's this is why I call it the writer's circle. But rather than who's in, who's out, which is what publishing often feels like the writer's circle is intended to be. Hey, let's huddle up. Let's get in a circle and let's just talk about what we love, which is writing. And so that that's what, you know,
it was born out of. And then also to sort of demystify publishing, because it really is a hard nut to crack for most of us. And so just offering whatever I can to give people that next step or that one encouragement that they need to keep going because it is a long obedience in the same direction as they say to publish your work. It's no joke.
Yeah, Well, let's start with the the matter of what editors are looking for.
Sure. Yeah, that's a loaded question. I can really speak to the lane that I'm in, which is quite narrow, which is Christian adult non-fiction. Okay, so a bunch of listeners are already thinking, all right, well, I'm going to turn this off, but no, there's a lot of principles that carry across genres. So for you fiction people, uh, those folks who write children's books, a lot of this applies to them. But yeah, there's really three things that
publishers are looking for. You'll hear this repeated in publishing rooms all over the place. And, uh, we describe it as a three legged table. And I think that concrete image is quite helpful. So for your writing to stand and for it to get out into the world, you really need these three legs of the table sturdy, or at least two of them sturdy. Maybe one can be a little shorter, you know, a slight wobble. But yeah, and the three are number one. I'll start with the
dreaded word, which is, uh, platform. And and that's such a dirty word among true creatives. And trust me, I share that disdain, uh, for the social media, you know, put yourself. Be loud. Um, become this personality. Uh, a lot of us who are writers, we express ourselves on the page, and we're not interested in setting up a tripod and an iPhone and recording a reel that has zero appeal to us. Yeah, but publishing has just vastly
changed with the advent of social media. And so where maybe 15, 20 years ago, a publisher really held most of the responsibility for platforming a writer. You could be a quote unquote no name Same writer, but if you were gifted and a publisher took your project on, you could find yourself in Barnes and Noble, placed right next to a best selling author who had sold millions of copies. And here you are, newly on the scene. So that kind of discoverability, it just doesn't work that way anymore
because of largely social media. So when I say platform, it doesn't have to be social media, but we're just looking to see are people listening to what you have to say? And specifically on the topic or the idea that you're pitching to us. And so have you sort of created momentum around your ideas. And that could be social media, or it could be something like Substack. It could be, uh, a community that you're a part of, like the rabbit room, um, where there's lots of people
accessing your writing. It can look a number of ways, but generally speaking, we're just looking to see if a writer has garnered some kind of a following, um, because at the end of the day. Oh, go ahead.
I was going to say, is it a rude question to ask when you say some kind of a following? Are you talking hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands? Can you even put it in those terms?
Yeah, that's the question people want to know. Is there a sort of a set metric that if I hit this, yeah, I'll get a book deal, and I have good news and bad news. I'll start with the bad news. No, there's no magic number. And we would love that kind of clarity and formula. But what's cool, I think what's encouraging is that I've seen book proposals where the author had hundreds of thousands of followers and we did not offer a contract. And then just recently, I was able
to acquire this amazing project. The author had maybe 300 followers. And, you know, those are numbers. Most people would hear and think, okay, I could probably pull that off. Yeah, right. And the reason why it worked was his topic was it just tapped into something that a lot of people love, which is birding of all things. And so he was a fantastic writer. I can't give away too much because we haven't announced it, but I'll just say this person has
some loose rabbit room affiliation, which is fun. And, um, you know, even the, uh, the artist we're bringing on has some connections, so. But that said, yes, there's no magic number, but we definitely are looking to see that people are coming to you for whatever it is that you're writing. So in this case, this author had started a website completely devoted to birding through a Christian lens. And we just love that. So that's the first leg of the table. The other two, I'm sorry.
Before you move on to the to the other two legs of the table, I got a few more questions about platform. Like I said, we've we've got six years of of, uh, of of questions not asked about platform in this podcast. So you have to answer all of them. Um, the. Has how has Substack changed? I mean like two years ago platform it felt like, oh, we're talking about social media.
And now it's now there's Substack seems to me something that's that's much more that writers are much more enthusiastic about than, as you said, reels or or I know I can't even think of the other ones are called TikTok and that kind of stuff. Yeah. Tell me about that. I mean, how how was that changed the way editors think about platform or has it.
Yeah. Great question. I don't know that it's significantly changed the way publishers look at it or not. Um, and I'm newer to Substack. I'm a couple months in myself. But yeah, Substack definitely is geared more toward writers, but I'm actually part of a Substack mastermind because I just wanted to learn myself. What is this platform all about? And the leader of that mastermind has said Substack. Actually, they don't even view themselves as catering to writers, which
I found interesting, really intriguing. I would have said that's absolutely what they're about, but they're actually their mission is to help people earn an income based on their content and whatever form that takes. And so they're introducing video now and a lot of other things. And I'm hearing the cries of lament from a lot of people who have been on the platform like, oh, great, this is going to look just like Instagram now or Facebook or something.
I think it's too early to tell, but from what I've seen, there's definitely an appetite for longer form writing on Substack, and it doesn't have that same doom scroll depressive vibe of some of the other platforms. And I really appreciate that. It's highly it's more interactive than even an email newsletter. And so one thing this is relevant,
I think, that publishers look for is engagement. You can have all the followers in the world, but if no one's really consuming or interacting with your content, something's probably amiss there. You want to start a conversation with your writing. And so Substack has there's nothing like it that I found in terms of shareability. People can spread your ideas for you getting to interact through comments, direct messages, things
like that. I think the platform is really well built to build community around ideas, which is exciting.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, one thing that that seems to me is maybe different about Substack as compared to some of the other social media platforms, is that a thousand followers on Facebook and a thousand followers on Substack to me, feel like two. Two very different things. You know, who knows if if you're thousand people on on Facebook are going to see what you have posted on Facebook. It depends on some algorithms that I don't that nobody understands.
And on something like Substack, you can actually see, oh, 40% of my readers open this email. You know, and so, uh, it it just feels like a to me. It feels like a the metrics feel different.
Absolutely. Yeah. One of the most powerful tools any writer can have at their disposal today is an email address. Yeah. Because number one, you know, we're not manipulating people on Substack into giving us their email they've chosen to. And they know that they will now receive your writing in their inbox, which is already crowded. Um, but they're they're desiring to give you their attention. And that is very significant.
So you're right. Substacks it's a different mentality. When you subscribe to someone on Substack, you're expecting their content now to be delivered to you, whereas on another platform, really all you're agreeing to when you subscribe or follow someone is. I might peruse your feed once a year for 10s,
and that's about it. So that's a huge distinguisher. I'm glad you brought that up, because what you can do is you can use that email list to not just share your posts, but as you have other things materializing, maybe you have a new project or a book that's coming out that you're self-publishing or whatever it is, and you can keep your audience in the loop. So Substack is not as sophisticated as some of the email subscription
services like ConvertKit, right, or Beehive or MailChimp. So there's no optimizing, you know, or automating emails or things like that. But it's got enough tools that you can do a lot more, which is nice. Yeah.
Yeah. All right. Well, thanks. I just wanted to. To slow you down. Just a minute. Now you can move on. Feel free to second leg of your three legged stool or table.
Yeah. We're going to build this thing by the end. We'll have it complete. Yes. So probably the most obvious one I'll do this one second. So if the first leg is platform, the second is content. And that really refers to the quality of writing itself. And that may seem overly obvious, but if I peel back the curtain as an editor, I'll just tell you you'd be surprised at the state of some of the manuscripts that come to us. Um, both. Yeah. Level of writing and the
organization of the manuscript. And this is not bagging on any author that I've worked with, but it's very difficult to write a book. And so, you know, because there's so much Preoccupation with platform and numbers of followers today. Writing can subtly slip to the back burner for a lot of people. Or you have influencers who will get book deals but who have never written really a word in their life. They've just talked to a camera, and that is a very new reality. So, um, every publisher
is different. But yeah, at Waterbrook, we're certainly looking for those that are gifted writers. They have a fresh way of saying things. Uh, you know, they're a lot of writers are striving for total originality, something that's never been said before. And in the nonfiction world, that's really a fool's errand. You know, as Ecclesiastes says, there's nothing new
under the sun. And so whenever a writer says, well, no one's ever written about this before, what I immediately think is, well, you just haven't done your homework, because probably tons of people have and they've probably done it really well. But what's amazing about modern publishing is that, you know, God raises up voices to say old truths in new ways. And he's also given you, as a writer,
a unique experiences, perspectives. And he will use all of that, uh, to take your book and reach readers in this time in, you know, these, these places. And I find that quite beautiful. But yeah, we're looking for writers who know how to write. I mean, as elementary as that sounds. And people who have that gift, uh, as an editor, I'm, of course, evaluating how much work is this going to like? Is this going to be a delightful labor of love as I edit this, or am I going to have to?
Is it going to be ten times the work because this writer hasn't mastered their craft yet? So we're definitely looking at that. And I think a community like the Rabbit Room, anytime I dip my toe into this community, I read an article or I listen to a lecture or something, I just feel like I get a fire
hose of thoughtful, stretching, um, inspiring, challenging content. And so this is the type of place in a sort of superficial, you know, five second scrolling world if you really want to absorb, if you really want to grow, uh, go to Hutch, you know, listen to the podcast. And I'm preaching to the choir here, but, um, it's yeah, it's quite refreshing what this community has going on. And I would encourage people to spend as much time in these kind of communities and less time trying to, you know,
shoot a viral reel. Uh, and again, for listeners who like being on camera and they're great oral communicators, that's awesome. Not downplaying that. But, uh, But in terms of craft, which is what we're talking about in writing. Yeah, definitely. Just spend as much time as you can with those who are better than you and who can speak into your writing.
So yeah, well, one thing you pointed out that had never really I'd never really put it together. Uh, but this is in one of your, you know, Substack posts, letters. Um, you pointed out that that, uh, platform building and growing in craft don't have to be two different things, right? When you commit to a regular newsletter, for instance, that is, yes, a way to build a platform. And at the same time, it's it's the kind of thing that is building your
craft in a way that shooting another Instagram reel doesn't. Yeah. So I appreciated that.
No, absolutely. In fact, since launching my Substack, I needed a breather. So I had written a newsletter every year or every week, I mean, for the last year and a half. So I had a lot of content to pull from, and as I went to post some of those older ones, I'd open it up, I'd start reading, and I'd think, this isn't that great. And and I've written my whole life. So it's not that that I just started writing, but still I was like, this is
I could do so much better. And so I'd edit and I'd change, and maybe that's the editor in me, but I think it yeah, just that discipline and that rhythm of writing, writing, writing, writing it does pay off, but it's silent and subtle, like the growth of a child, where you have to make those tick marks on a door frame.
Yeah, right.
You don't see them growing day to day. But as you have these metrics or these milestones, you can look back and see it. And so absolutely, in fact, I would liken it to the, the single person who really wants to meet their soulmate, so to speak. And the more you focus on it and obsess over it, uh, the worse of a person to go on a date with you will become. Yeah, right. You kind of just got to live your life. And, um, and I would say so as writers just right. And that platform that
you want so badly. It may come. It may not. Yeah. Um, but if you're consistently putting content out there, that is the best that you can create and you're putting your whole heart into it, that's much more important than having a strategy. The strategy part, it matters. Having, you know, for instance, a a content calendar or something that you follow or just a number of posts you want to do each month, those are great goals, but people can
get so lost and so discouraged. And the anonymity of the algorithm feeling lost in the rush that they neglect what really matters, which is their craft, and people will find good content. I believe, you know, uh, the cream eventually rises to the top, and it doesn't mean you don't put any effort into platform, but it certainly means you put effort into your writing?
Well, I, I have found it. You know, I guess in 2018, I said I'm going to deliver a newsletter every week, which at the time I thought was kind of crazy because it was really hard for me. I was having a hard time hitting deadlines as it was. And then to commit to a weekly deadline. Uh, but it's been so good for me, for one thing, to have people expecting something. Yes. People who might be disappointed.
I mean, I don't know if they would be, but I think they might be disappointed if they didn't get something from me on a Tuesday morning after they've been expecting it every Tuesday morning since, you know, for a long time. And, um, and as you said, just that act. It's meant so much to me as a writer, um, in a lot of different ways. Uh, there's the only strategy. The only plan was, I'm going to do this every week. And then over the course of that, you sort of discover, oh,
here's what I need to be writing about. Here's what people respond to. Um, and, and you just get better at it as time goes on. And I think that that commitment to say I'm going to do something that people will expect and will be hopefully disappointed if I don't do it. Yes, I think that's that's a pretty important principle for platform building. That doesn't feel like the selling of one's soul.
Absolutely. Yeah. I think the best advice on building platform that I've heard is do things that are life giving to you, not things that make your soul feel like you're trying to, you know, manipulate it into some mold. And so I'm the same way, Jonathan. Writing weekly has been amazing accountability, but it's so rewarding just to be able to share something every week and to to know that maybe in some way it's it's helping or inspiring someone and, uh, otherwise I think I can really build
up writing in my mind like it's an event. It's this thing that I'm going to do when I finally can get away from home. I got three young kids, so it's like I'm going to rent a cabin somewhere at some time, and it's all so ethereal that it never actually happens. And so the reality, what it looks like is, okay, I'm writing every week. I got to get this done. So sometimes it's 11 p.m. I wrote one newsletter literally in the air this year, um, sitting in the bed with an IV like, it's you just
you got to get it done. It's. Yeah, for me.
So you don't rent a cabin every week to write your, uh, your thing?
I wish, I wish, but no. Nope. It's what, in the those nooks and crannies. And I'm not super disciplined either. Some of your listeners probably are. And they can lock in that two hour writing session each week. For me, it's sporadic, you know, it's midday, it's early morning, it's late at night. It's just whenever I can. And so, yeah, whatever works, you know, as long as you get it done. And, um, I, I feel really proud, as I'm sure you do, that
I've been consistent and haven't missed a single newsletter. And so even though the process has been messy to get those out, I haven't missed one. And that's just a great that's something every writer, I think would love to look back on and be able to say, yeah, even though not every week was maybe my best work, I did. I gave my best. But life happened. But I I'm committed to this thing and and here we are. So.
Well, I'm going to say one more one more thing about, uh, delivering something every week. And that is it helps. It has helped me let go of some of the preciousness of believing, like it's the the amount of time I spend on it and the amount of, of care I, I give. I mean, beyond a certain threshold. It doesn't seem to be related directly to how to how well people respond to it. It's something that I've just sort of like in the in the 11th hour just said, okay,
I got to get something out. Here it is. It's been really instructive to me to see how often that's what people respond to. Um, and it's helped me let go of some, some things and some need to be, I mean, a certain amount of I'm not the kind of perfectionist that some people are, but but what little perfectionism I have had has gotten kind of gotten beaten out of me by, well, I say beaten up in some way. Just, yes, you know, beaten out of me
because Tuesdays, Tuesdays just keep on coming. Yeah. But also in a much gentler way, just letting go of some things by saying, oh, this is not a function of, you know, of of how hard I work on this necessarily. Um, you know, I always say only God can make a tomato like you. You've got some work to grow. Tomatoes. There's some things I've got to do. But ultimately, it's God's job to make the tomato. I can weed, I can, I can plant.
Yeah, yeah. That's that's so true. Another thing it's done for me writing consistently has been because I feel that pressure to make it the best I can. It's actually driven me toward other people for their feedback. And, you know, you sort of have that internal pebble in your shoe as a writer where you just know something's off. But but a lot of times it's on Friday evening and I send mine out Saturday mornings. So I'll go to my wife and I'll either read it aloud to her
or I'll have her read it. And she's we think very differently and that's quite helpful. So, you know, she'll say, oh yeah, that doesn't make sense. Or I think your tone there, I know what you you mean or intend, but I think you should maybe dial that back or maybe turn up the volume and be a little bit more bold, get off the fence or whatever. And man,
that has been so helpful. Whereas to your point, when you view your writing as too precious, sometimes you hoard it to yourself and you don't let other people in. And that's not good for your writing either. So that'd be one other thing as we're talking that came to mind as I've shared my writing more than ever, I don't mean by publishing it, I mean by welcoming others into edit. And that's been another good muscle to develop creatively is not being afraid of what others have to say.
So that's good. All right. We better keep moving. Third leg of the stool or the. That's right.
Yes. And I already touched on this I think. But so you have the first leg is platform, the second is content. And then the third is your concept. And that's where I think we were getting into this idea that you don't have to put the pressure on your shoulders of a totally original, never seen before idea. And this goes for fiction writers, too, you know, sort of latent in your own storytelling and the worlds maybe that
you create somewhere in there. Um, you're regurgitating, uh, those fiction writers that you love, even if it's just the techniques they use, the beat of the dialogue, um, the, the way of jumping into the action, whatever it is, all of that's flowing out. And that's not something we should shy away from or apologize for. We all stand on the shoulders of the literature that has come before, and I think it's actually a way of showing respect
to those that have, uh, nourished our craft. So when I say publishers are looking for a fresh concept, really what that means, certainly in the nonfiction world is we're not looking as much to see. Is this writer telling us about themself or are they talking about a topic? Those are often, I think, reductionistic ways of describing what
a book is. So if an author, if their only goal is like, well, I want to tell my story, or if their only goal is, well, I want to talk about this topic, that that's not actually a mission that can be cathartic to tell your story, and your story matters immensely. It's it's valuable as one created in
God's image, and it may even bless people. But the minute you talk about not just writing something, but wanting to get paid to write it, and publishers having to pay to produce it and ship it to thousands of people suddenly now, um, a marketing angle. And this, this is going to sound slimy at first, but a marketing angle comes into play where now the question is, will people actually want to read this? And that is not
an evil question. Uh, or a question that steamrolls, you know, creativity. Um, certainly the idea of will an audience come to this can be approached in a poorly. But at the heart of it, what we are looking for is, does this book address a felt need? Does it name an ache that readers feel? Does it unearth or articulate a problem that they experience, but they haven't quite been able to put language to it? But this book is their aha
moment where they realize, oh yes, that's me. I need help here, I need direction, I need encouragement, I need guidance and a paradigm shift that's helpful when you're forming your concept. Is this, um, writers sometimes make the mistake of placing themselves as the hero of the story instead of making themselves the guide. And some will have heard this before. But rather than saying, you know, I have
all the answers, listen to me, I'm the expert. And of course, as writers, we hope to come with knowledge and expertise, but instead it's to say to focus on the reader, to look them in the eye and say, okay, I know that you feel this, you struggle with this, or you have this problem. Um, let me come alongside you and let's walk this journey together. And, you know, I've learned a couple things. Maybe through success, maybe through failure. But I'm going to share some things along the way.
But let's walk side by side down this path. That tone, I think, really resonates with readers a lot. And you can still share your expertise. You can still tell your story, you can still address your topic, but it's framed in a different way that puts the reader first. Um, and so a mantra I think good nonfiction writers adopt is make it about them, make it about your readers, make it about serving them and forefronting their needs, their dreams,
their hopes, their fears. And if you do that, a concept is going to resonate a lot more, and it's going to help you with the pacing of telling your story. And, uh, even, you know, in a memoir, I think this can be done really well. Where the bulk of memoirs is focused on the author, it's focused on their experiences. But whether implicitly or explicitly, they're giving the reader. Insights about their
own lives. Again, they're expressing these inner desires and hopes that maybe the reader has never recognized in themselves, never been able to put words to. And so, yeah, that's the third leg. So.
So by by concept, could you just give me a one sentence definition of what you mean when you say concept.
Absolutely. I mean, very basically it's, um, what are you talking about and how will it help readers?
Okay.
And some would only give that first clause, you know. Yeah. What is this book about? Yeah. But including in your concept, how will it help readers, uh, looking through that lens? Specifically, I think is a great shift that writers can make.
Yeah. I mean, you're talking about memoir. Sometimes I have to when I work with writers who've who've written memoir, we have to talk about the difference between autobiography and memoir. You know, for if you're Bono, everything you say is interesting because people are interested in it. Right. And so Bono says, I like I like to twist my Oreos apart. People say, whoa, Bono's is like me. He likes to twist his Oreos apart. And if Bono met the Pope,
it's like, wow, Bono met the Pope. That's so interesting. You know who? Who knew? Yeah, but if you like to twist your ears apart. I'm not that interested, to tell you the truth. Sorry. But you know, it's just the truth. And, um. But the question then is, you know. Sometimes writers of of memoir don't quite get that. They think because it's something that happened to them, it was interesting to them. It'd be interesting to a reader. Yeah. Whereas as you said, the question is always, what does
this mean? You know what? What does this mean to the reader? And um, and so your, your, your trip to the, to the ER recently, you know that, uh, I'm not I'm sorry you went to the ER, but you know, my question is what does this have, you know, what does this have to do with me.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
One of the challenges, by the way, of of, uh, anytime anybody writes memoir related to medical questions is the fact that I was sick is one of the most important things that's ever happened to me. But if you're not the person who was sick, it's like, well, everybody gets sick. So what else do we have to say about that?
So yeah, that's great. I had a colleague. She's this wonderful person and veteran editor. She did a deep dive into memoirs because they don't sell. Um, you know, this is through the publishing lens now. Yeah. And that's not to say memoirs aren't worth writing, but they're really tough to sell. And so she just. Yeah. Did a deep dive. And one of the things that emerged, one of the critiques of the memoir genre is that, um, exactly what you mentioned, a lot of people who are sick, they'll
write about it. And so you you have all these cancer stories, you have all these, you know, tragedy stories. And it's not that they don't matter. It's just, yeah, it's very difficult to write a good book that's going to draw in readers about those things. And, um, that's tough. That's a tough pill to swallow because as you said, these experiences, I mean, they are earth shattering. They they shape us. Often God does a lot of work in our lives through them. You know, I have cancer that
has touched my family in some very significant ways. And but yes, it's having that awareness, that reader awareness of what's truly going to help them. And so that's something we all have to wrestle with.
Yeah. Well, before we run out of time, I do want to ask you about an idea that you wrote about on your Substack recently, and that is the difference between writing out of your wounds and writing out of scars. Mhm. Because I think, I mean, since we're, since we're talking about medical issues, um.
Open it up.
Uh, let's, uh, tell me about that idea as people again. I think a lot of people listen to this podcast are interested in writing memoir. Um, so let's talk about scars versus wounds.
Absolutely. Well, I'll tell a quick story. I had a friend who was a pastor at a church and the church just blew up. The senior pastor, who was not my friend, had had fallen into quite a lot of trouble. I had made some pretty terrible decisions and quickly was taken out of leadership because of how the situation was handled. My friend felt he needed to resign out of integrity, so he just it was a whirlwind. Didn't see any of it coming. Uh, nothing. He hadn't caused any of
it directly, but still, the fallout affected him. And so a publisher approached him and said, because this church was large and nationally known, they said, can you write a book about your experiences? Sort of an inside take on everything that's happened. And, uh, he was so disoriented. He said yes, very quickly, wrote the book, turned it in. Uh, it was essentially his family's income at the time because
he had lost his job. And then it came time to start, you know, the marketing process and really rolling the book out to release it. And he felt this conviction within. I can't publish this. Uh, it's so raw. It's going to increase the hurt that people feel, the sense of betrayal they feel from what's happened. So he calls his publisher and he says, hey, I can't publish this. And they're furious. Like, really at this point after all
of this? So they tell him, the only way we're going to let you out of this contract is if you pay back all of the advance, and that's it. So my friend knew it would drain his family's savings account. He has no contingency plan, but he ultimately pulls the book, and he pays back every penny of the advance, and he eats that. And, uh, I just I love that story because of not only his integrity, but he had
the wherewithal to realize that. And the way he put it was as he read through the book, knowing this was about to be released, he said it read more like an angry diary entry than even a thoughtful critique. Write some books. There's a place for that of calling out the injustice, of contending for victims, things like that. But he realized this was not that. This was something else.
And how do we distinguish between just an angry rant in a prophetic critique and the words that one of my colleagues used that I just immediately latched on to and have used is the problem arises when writers write out of the wound, not the scar. So that distinction, that distinction between wounds and scars I find super helpful. A a wound is still bleeding. It's fresh. And you know, the objection to all of this is, well, why are you censoring your emotion? You should pour that rage onto paper.
You should not apologize. You should just get it out there. But that's why I find the image of a wound so helpful. And this is a little gross, but it makes the point. When someone has a gushing, leaking wound, you don't want to be anywhere near that. If you're a medical professional, you have gloves on a mask. You're protecting yourself from that. So yes, you can bleed onto the page, but and that's honest and raw. But it's
quite unsettling as a reader to encounter that. Yeah. And so going back to the memoir example, uh, one of my colleagues was talking about this memoir that that she was editing, and this person's mother had passed away through a long, hard battle with some disease. And he just went into extreme detail about the tubes and bodily fluids and just far more than the reader needed to know, and was actually saying less about who his mother was
then just the terrible, terrible situation she was in. And so that's an example that for a writer, it can feel cathartic. It can feel freeing to get that all onto the page. But it was still too fresh. Yeah. So the difference between a wound and a scar, the main one is time. Yeah.
Well, as you said, I mean, write whatever you need to write for yourself. That doesn't mean it's it's for everybody else. And write out your wounds into your journal for sure.
Yes. Yeah. There's a place where those wounds can live and help you process. In fact, maybe my friend would look at that first book draft he wrote and tending originally to publish it. But maybe that was a stepping stone on the journey toward writing something that would be more helpful to the general public. And that's what he
ended up doing. So he published a second book a few years later after much counseling and time and healing and conversations and as much reconciliation as could be attained in that time frame, and he wrote a beautiful, I think, memoir about what he experienced. But that sharp edge, uh, is, is there in some ways, but it just reads differently because his wound had time to heal into a scar. And here's why I love this analogy. Scars. They're not pretty.
So we're not talking about tying up your pain with a bow, or airbrushing your experience, or downplaying the injustice. What we're talking about is being able to describe it in a way that people can receive. And so Steve delves into this is the my friend who wrote the book. He delves into some of the most hurtful things that were said. He goes there and he tells those stories. um, with grace and truth. But again, it's not leaking anymore.
And it's it's, uh, it's helpful, actually, to hear some of those behind the scenes stories and then to hear him reflect on what God has taught him through them and his own sin. That sort of has become more clear in the rear view as well. So it's just there's a big difference between wounds and scars. Yeah.
Great. Thanks. Well, well, we better wrap this thing up, but I want to ask you my customary last question. Sure. And that is, who are the writers who make you want to write? Well.
That's one of the hardest questions for me, because it feels like I should just give you a list of 50 names. But yeah, a couple folks that come to mind. One has been on the show, uh, Leif Enger.
Um.
So on the fiction side, his descriptions. Yeah. His dialogue. Just a master of the craft. Yeah. And when I read him, I'm just filled with envy, if I'm honest. It's just. How in the world do you do that on the page? And so I. I love his writing.
Yeah, I do too.
Another person would be Andy Crouch.
Um.
So as someone who has mixed feelings on technology and its impact on our lives, Andy's words cast a really beautiful vision. I think, of why we're here as Christians, what we're called to, and how to live lives of flourishing. Uh, I'd have to mention Eugene Peterson for the way he can do exactly what we're talking about. He just has this knack of naming the ache we feel and bringing truth and comfort. Uh, here's one that might surprise people.
And I doubt anyone's mentioned there's a writer named Eddie Schlesner.
Okay, I don't know. Eddie Schlesner.
He is actually a copywriter.
Huh.
But he thinks deeply and writes stunningly about the human experience. So when people hear copywriter, they might think, oh, jeez, great, a marketing mind. But man, he is a thought leader for writers. And his book, Very Good Copy, which is tailored to copywriters, is really about how to capture the human experience in your writing.
So, okay.
I can't recommend his newsletter more highly. It's called very Good Copy. And maybe lastly, I'm I'm embarrassed to say, but I'm just starting to really dip into Wendell Berry. Oh, and.
Um, good for you. You got a lot to look forward to.
Uh, that's what everyone tells me. And and I, uh, I'm already captured by what I'm reading. Um, but I'm reading his book, Standing by Words. which is a collection of essays. And so I'm hopping on that train finally. Yeah, those are a few I have not yet. No, no.
So good. You're going to love it.
Yeah, I can't wait. Do you have a recommendation where I should start?
Well, uh, a couple possibilities. One is to start with his short stories. That distant land is a great a great way to start. Um, but if you want to start with a novel, you know, it's Jaber Crowe. Is is Jaber Crowe and Hannah Colter are the the two that people usually start with. And, um, those are both just fantastic novels. I mean, it's all great, but.
Yeah. Yeah. That's great. My wife just read Jaber Crowe and really enjoyed it.
So yeah, it's I hope she's not going to open a barber shop. Um.
I think we're safe.
Yeah. Okay. Well, there's there's, uh, somebody in here in Nashville who, uh. Yeah. Opened a barber shop after he read Jaber Crowe, so that's fantastic. Yeah. All right, Will Parker Anderson, thanks so much for being here. It's been a pleasure.
Yeah. Thank you Jonathan, I appreciate the work you do. And thanks for having me on.
Thanks. The habit podcast is brought to you by the Rabbit Room, where art nourishes community, and community nourishes art. You can support their work including this podcast, by becoming a member. Visit COVID-19. Special thanks as well to Taylor Leonard for letting us use her song diamonds as the theme music for The Habit podcast. You can learn more about Taylor and follow her work at Taylor Comm. The Habit Membership is a library of resources for writers by me,
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