The only thing durable enough is actually beauty and goodness and song. These things are so durable. Even though they look flimsy to us, they feel like almost an escape escapism or. But they're really not. They really are a testimony in a way, to bear witness to reality and to not just to bear witness, but to actually participate in it, to actually engage with what is real.
Welcome to the habit podcast conversations with writers about writing. I'm Jonathan Rogers, your host. This episode is brought to you by the Habit Writer development cohorts. I've taught a lot of writers over the last three decades, and here's a recurring theme if you're a writer, it can be hard to believe that readers need what you can bring. But your voice, your point of view, your combination of interest and insight those are exactly what the world needs
from you. I put together the Habit Writer Development Cohorts, a six week writing intensive to help writers like you recover your voice, build sustainable habits, and produce work that sounds exactly like you. From May 19th through June 27th, you'll write alongside a small group of fellow writers with structure, coaching, and support every step of the way. Find out more and apply for a spot at the habit. Matthew Clark is my guest on this week's episode. Matthew is a
singer songwriter, a storyteller, and a free spirit. He drives around America in a van he calls Vandolph, taking his music and his stories and his wisdom to audiences across the country. For the last six years, he's been working on a project he calls The Well Trilogy. Three albums of 11 songs, each accompanied by a collection of 11 essays inspired by those songs written by friends of Matthew. The latest installment, where the River goes, comes out this week.
In this episode, Matthew and I talk about aligning with reality, overcoming despair and the love that outlives every kind of death. Matthew Clark, what a pleasure it is to have you back again on The Habit podcast.
Good to be here. Thanks for having me.
Um, excited about the new third volume of The Well trilogy. Um, tell me about give us a. I know you've talked this in a previous episode, but give us the overview of the well trilogy and the and the music that goes with it. Yeah. Tell us about this whole project.
Yeah. It's, um, it's been something I've been working on since 2019, and I had a bunch of songs, like just a pile of scraps of songs, and they seemed to kind of naturally want to gather in three conversations. And so I thought, well, maybe three albums. One conversation seemed to be about, uh, meeting. Meeting. Jesus and and what are the obstacles or the fears that get in
the way of that? And then that ended up being kind of framed around the woman at the, well, here's this woman who has no imagination for how God could possibly meet her in a hopeful or good way. Yeah, she gets a big surprise, and she has all these obstacles to that meeting. She doesn't want to face God. Um, but the face of God ends up being Jesus's face. And it's a smiling face. The light of the face of God has been turned towards her. And so that
album is called Only the Lover Sings. And as we'll talk about, it's framed also in a lot around Joseph Peeper's stuff. Um, he even stole the title. Yeah. Uh, and then the middle album is about faith keeping. It's kind of centered around the Psalm 137. You know, here we are by the rivers of Babylon. In our slave drivers are just humiliating us, saying, why don't you sing those songs about that home you're never going to see again? How do we decide to keep singing what is true
and hold on to what is true? How do we keep this feast in the midst of misery and suffering? And then the last album, this one that's coming out now, is, uh, is about the final return of that face. We met by the well that seemed to disappear in the middle volume, and now has come back fully and completely unveiled at the last apocalypse. You know, this great unveiling and revealing of the face of Jesus to the whole cosmos and
how everything is made new by that. And the sort of image for that is this river, Ezekiel's river, that begins as this little trickle from the becomes this massive thing that, uh, in Ezekiel is told everything will live where the river goes. And the river is kind of Jesus's face, making all things new. But each album has a book that goes with it. I thought, I really miss liner notes. I thought it'd be fun to just have some gigantic liner notes.
Yeah, the most elaborate liner notes that have ever been composed.
Yeah. If you're going to do something, just just overdo it.
Yeah, yeah. So each book is 11 essays, plus an introductory and a sort of an intro and an outro from you.
That's right. Um, so I asked some writers that I liked and, um, if they would pick a song from that album and not analyze it or critique the song, they didn't even have to mention the song if they didn't want to, but just enter into a conversation with that song and write a personal narrative essay. And those make up the chapters. Yeah. Drone outro stuff.
So 32 different writers you recruited 33. Counting you.
Mhm. I even recruited myself.
Wow.
I know it was a moonshot.
It just. It's just now occurring to me. Is the reason you wrote one of those essays yourself is because I didn't get mine turned in.
Yeah. That's your fault.
Okay. Awesome. Sorry about that.
That's okay.
Well, something you said a minute ago. Maybe. Maybe a good place for us to to jump off. That is. Now, I can't remember how you phrased it, but you're talking about the new heavens and the new earth, and you didn't put it this way. But it's the way I like to talk about. It is in the new heavens and the new earth. The only thing that's left is that which is real.
Right? Yeah.
You know, but before that point, we're always trying to sort out what's real. What's not real. We have so many different ways of us dealing with reality or choosing not to deal with reality being Turned aside from reality, constantly trying to get ourselves reoriented to reality. But the day is coming when reality is all. All that will be left. You know, which is another way of, you know, you put it in terms of, um, you know, all
that's left is life. You know, all the varieties of death, uh, will be gone.
Right? A thousand species of death.
Watch what you say.
So a phrase that kind of. You know how as you think or write or process, certain things will will condense down into a phrase, a memorable phrase. And a thousand species of death. Was. Was that for me? Thinking of, well, what are all there's obviously our literal death at the end of our life. And that's a that's the last enemy. Paul says, but we also experience throughout our life all kinds of little deaths, all kinds of things that are not actually what God dreamt of for this world. They're
intrusions and they're things. Uh, so, um, all of that will be removed. And that's also that idea of, um, this is this is part of why judgment is actually a positive thing, because judgment means that, um, this fusion of the good and the bad and the light and the dark, all these things that that we have a very hard time separating out or telling the difference. Like you're you were just saying they get confused. Um, they
get fused together. And so the wheat and the tares are growing in the same field, and, and the, the angels say, no, don't pull up. Don't don't try to sort it out because you won't be able to. Um, and we don't have the blueprints for the original plan. And now this thing is in ruins and we can't rebuild it ourselves. But God is the only one who ever saw it before it began to fall apart. So he's the only one who can actually, um, sort out
that confused state that we live in. And that means that when he comes to judge, he will clarify all of that. He can actually tell the difference. And he can, um, tell what's a tear and what's not, you know, and he can, um, he's the only one who can cure our confusion. And the opposite of confusion I'm thinking of as holiness. It's purity. And so one day, all that is death that's mixed in with our lives will be removed completely. And so this is a cause for joy.
Judgment is something you actually want in that sense.
Yeah. So you mentioned that the we we aren't able to rebuild the ruins because we don't have the blueprint. Um, what does that mean for a songwriter? A writer? Are you not trying to rebuild some ruins in your. I mean, your your book to me reads like a a rebuilding of something ruined. Am I am I misunderstanding that?
No, it doesn't mean that. Well, we could talk about paper or, um. And the idea of the knowability that God is making himself known. And so we're not in a state where we have zero access to reality. Um, we would be if God were not, uh, self disclosing God, not a communicating God, but he is a communicating God. And so that means, um, that he is putting us back into contact with reality and with, you know, that blueprint, so to speak. And even further than that, Jesus himself
has come. The blueprint has come and become flesh and dwelt among us so that we could, um, you know, like John writes in first, John, this is the one we've seen and touched and heard. That's who we're talking about. And so we have fellowship again with, with this God who, um, who gives us now access to what his original dream for the world was.
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's also worth, uh, noting as as you note, um, that that we were desired and loved into being the the universe exists. The universe was thought. And so as we think we have access, you say God is a communicating God. And one of the ways he communicates himself is just in the created order. You know that that we can think about the world because it was thought to. Yeah, I know you're. Since you're a peeper reader. Um, you know, that's an idea that
people didn't invent. Of course. Uh, that he's borrowing from Aquinas. But but. And I don't know where Aquinas got it, but but the, um. But the idea that we have access to reality because reality is thought shaped, you know, literally.
Right. Yeah.
That seems really relevant to what you're doing in these songs, in these in these books that you're writing for this project.
Yeah, I. I liked listening to your I forget what the number of the episode was, but that you suggested to me. Um, and it started with Taylor Linhart's, uh, that phrase love himself dreamed you up, you know?
Yeah.
And. Right. If that's true, then that means. That means that that there is a natural, um, relatability of reality. We we have been made to know it. Yeah. We're designed to be able to enter into it and know it. And that was always, you know, that was always the quote, predestination. The destination was always for us to be with and to be like Jesus. And that destination got derailed in
a lot of ways. But God has made it possible for that train to get back on the track, or for that pilgrim to find the the lost trail again and wind up at the the joy that was always meant to be set before us, you know.
Yeah.
And that that's actually normal. Yeah. What God is returning us. What we've experienced to is a normalized Abnormality.
Yeah.
What is normal is actually to be able to commune with God to know him. Mhm.
Yeah. Well I, I love the way uh, you put it early in the introduction to, to this latest book, uh, you and I and the whole cosmos have been desired and loved into being. Um, and then you, I don't know if I'm paraphrasing or quoting here. Our maker, the greatest of dreamers, is is preparing a place for us just as we're being prepared for it. Um, but, boy, the idea that we are, uh, desired and loved into being. Um. I don't even. That's not a question. That's just, uh, something to marvel at. Yeah.
It is. It's. And a lot of this trilogy is about being surprised. Yeah. A lot of it is about. Wow, I did not. That's not what I thought was going on with the world That's not what I thought God was like. Or in, you know, for me, in the first book, only the lover Sings, one of the big ideas is in the reasons. It's the reason it's framed around the. The woman at the well in John chapter
four is that this woman's imagination for good? Uh, is so depleted, it's so damaged, and so she can't imagine that God could meet her, or that these things that we've been talking about could be true about her or the world. Um, because of her experience. And I think of the imagination as a sort of wall in your mind where you hang pictures, you hang images. And when you want to know what's possible for your life, you go and you look at that wall and you say,
you know, okay, a dog is approaching me. What's on my wall of images? Oh, I've got a lot of pictures of being bit by dogs, so it's not a good idea for me to be around a dog or for this woman. You know, men are not it's not a great idea to be around a man or God. And so that's going to give her a sense of what's likely or possible. And then she goes to the well. And by the end of that conversation, um, what happens? She goes, uh, this is an interesting thing. Something happens
that is not actually we're not actually told. And in writing, you know, you've taught this before, like show don't tell or a lot of movie makers say, show us, don't tell us. And we're not told what she sees on the face of Jesus. We're only shown what happens because of what she saw. And judging by what happens that she goes with all this joy and begins knocking on all the doors of the people she'd been avoiding all
this time, because she's too embarrassed to be around them. Uh, judging by that response, what do you think she saw on the face of Jesus? It couldn't have been discussed. It couldn't have been a frown, right?
Yeah.
So this is a huge surprise. And so to be to find out that God loves you and has come to bring the the smile of God to you to turn his face toward you with delight. Um, to find out that you were loved, into being dreamt of, desired into reality. That's an unbelievable surprise. Um.
Yeah. That's where story lives, right? That unexpected. The thing that you couldn't have predicted. And then after it happens, it's obvious. And you don't know why you didn't guess it in the first place.
And it makes sense of everything that came before in a new way. You get that sort of, uh, that backfilling of meaning, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. Um. You you say that, um, the lover sings two songs simultaneously, and one is a song of lament, and the other is the song that says his love endures forever.
Mhm.
Tell me about that.
Yeah, I think that. I think that we're we're waiting. Right. We're in this waiting period. Um, and we're saying, oh God, how long is it going to take you to pull all this off? All this, all this great stuff you've promised, like we believe it and and we're longing for it to come true at the same time. And we're in this circumstance where it doesn't look true or feel true most of the time. Um, We're bombarded with all kinds of contradictory information and noise, and we're just trying to
cling to this thing. And and we see our own hearts, we see inside our own selves. And that's hard to face. And we're tired of being sinful. We're tired of being tired.
Mhm.
And so we're lamenting and we're saying, oh Lord, you've said some really wonderful things. Uh, and, and so lament and love. Uh what's that. Um, is it that Herbert poem? All my life I will both lament and love.
I don't know that poem.
Is it? It's just a line that is hung out in my brain. But I'm trying to place it. I think it's a Herbert poem. It might be the. I can't remember, but he talks about lament and love. Mhm. I will lament and love my whole life. Um, because I believe in you. And I'm also. I'm also just carrying this longing, you know. Mhm.
Yeah. Yeah.
But both are faithful like that. That's the sense in which lament is a faithful complaint.
Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Well you, you talk about the idea that um a phrase that struck me from your, from your introductory essay was uh, the many deaths that love has outlasted.
Yeah.
Um, which, you know, again speaks to the, the comic nature of reality. Um, that, that there, there are all these little deaths and they're, they're painful and they are they're true. Right. They're not false. I mean, it's just that there's something truer, that there's a love that outlasts all that death. Uh, all those all those losses, all those humiliations. And, um, and again, I think you're you're
hitting it. You're getting at something very important for storytelling that, um, even that sentence, the many deaths that love is outlasted, that singing those two songs simultaneously. The the lament and and the the song. His love endures forever.
Mhm. Yeah. And that that is that's one of the beautiful witnesses of, of Scripture in the way that God has supplied the story, you know, is that you've got, you've got all this, these terrible things happening and you've got this God who is so reliable through the whole, you know, that's the strand that goes through it is, uh, the thread that goes through it is this sort of, uh,
indestructible faithfulness. And you see all these reasons for it to fall apart and for this thing to just be like, okay, there's no way this is going to recover. And then it does, you know, and, and, um, and then the most poignant one, uh, literally is, is the cross, um, you see. Okay, okay, this is it. There's no way you're coming back from this one. Um, and this is the place where, you know, there are a lot of
different ways you can think of the cross. And I'm not saying this is the one way to think of it, but something that I've been thinking about has been, um. That for a long time I thought of the cross as a place where God is saying, see, look what you made me do. Kind of like. It's kind of like rubbing your nose in it, right?
Yeah.
And but that's begun to change over the last few years working on these books. And now I'm thinking of the cross as God saying, this is how bad it really is in the sense of someone who is identifying with how with your suffering. Mhm. He's saying I understand how what it's like to be you. It's this bad isn't it. It really is. But you know what. Even in this place I'm glad to be here. Even here. Like even in this naked, humiliating, painful, miserable place. It
it can't get any worse. Like even here. I want to be with you. And somebody said that at the scene of the crucifixion, there is only one person who actually wants to be there. Hmm. Wow. Another surprise, you know?
Yeah, yeah. Um. Gladness. You know, you just spoke of the cross in terms of gladness. He was glad to be there. Um, gladness is the great surprise. Um. And despair. Let's talk about despair.
Um.
Resignation.
Resignation? Yeah.
Um. These are both. Is it fair to to. And this may not be fair at all, but we'll throw it out there. We'll talk about it. Okay. Uh, are those positions of overconfidence, despair and resignation?
This.
I know how this is going to end. Therefore, I'm bracing myself. It's it's. I think it's unkind to call that overconfident especially, you know, so I don't I don't mean, but there's a sense of they're in despair. If I if I'm in despair, I am confident that I know how this thing's going to end. My imagination has not allowed for, um, uh, a good ending here.
Right.
Um.
Yeah. Well, I love tokens. Come in on this. Well, in Lord of the rings, Gandalf says he talks about, um, that we're really not allowed to despair, because that means that we're. We're assuming that we know all possible ends. Mhm. All the ways that this could possibly turn out. And we've seen them all and we know them all and therefore and we know that they're all bad. Mhm. We've come to this conclusion. So I think that and he says we don't know that even the very wise cannot see all ends. Right.
I don't know if it's I don't know if Tolkien says this or if this somebody was talking about talking. But despair is not just a sin. It's a mistake. That's right. It is a mistaken sense of what the possibilities are.
That's right. So but I think what happens is you do get to a place where you feel like, you know what? What's possible. Um, and you don't. There's always a room to be surprised by God because he is doing surprising things. Um, and, gosh, there are a lot of things I'm thinking of, but, um, one of the, one of the phrases I use in the book, this last book is the idea of a foregone conclusion.
Mhm.
This is a foregone conclusion. And the woman at the well, me and my life at different times I have come to a place where I, I've felt like it's a foregone conclusion that nothing good can happen. Which means I've come to a conclusion, even if it's a mistake or a false one. And the problem with that is that it's masquerading as a type of confidence or authority.
Or wisdom.
Or wisdom. And so I can be really cynical or negative or sarcastic, and it can, because I've come to that foregone conclusion, um, I've ruled out hope or surprise which which from the outside, you looking in on my life that may look like authority. I can speak of that. And it can come across as, wow, this guy really has wisdom or authority. He knows.
He knows how the world works.
We should all despair. We should all give up right now, you know? And to say like. But actually he's wrong. He's. It's not that he actually knows all the possible ends and they're all bad. It's just, um, come to a conclusion about what's possible.
Yeah. And a kind of self-protection, which, again, it's it's it is actually pretty understandable for a lot of people. I mean, the woman at the. Well, I completely understand why she felt resigned, possibly despairing.
Yes. Yes. Um, a lot of room for compassion. Because it is it is in some ways very reasonable, given, you know, your experience, perhaps.
Yeah.
Um, but there's always you have to leave room for, uh, for variables you couldn't account for, you know?
Yeah. Well, to change the topic a little bit, there's a line from one of your songs. Now, I can't remember which song it is. I think it's the first one on the new record.
The title track of the first album. I think only.
Oh, we're going back. That's right. This is from the first of the three albums. Tell me if I'm getting this right. You've never met a liar on the lie that they put forth, right? You get that right.
Mhm.
What does that mean?
So the idea I was taking this from Pieper too. He talks about that. We are, we are creatures that are made for beholding to be, to see and to be seen. And that God sees us and knows us and we've been loved into being like we talked about. And so our the right posture for us is to return that gaze, is to look back into the face that has sort of looked us into being. And but that's really scary because we have a damaged imagination. We have a hard time expecting anything good. If we look
in that face, we expect disgust and condemnation. And so we do all kinds of things to avoid making eye contact, to protect ourselves. And, um, one of those things is. But which means that we're not participating in reality insofar as I, uh, construct these facades that that sort of extend out in front of me to protect me. And I don't tell the truth, and I don't face myself. It means I don't have a face. It means instead of a face, I have a facade, which is sort
of a force field out in front of me. So, like, if you meet me, you don't meet me. You meet the facade, you meet the that isn't actually me. Because the thing that is actually me is so tender and vulnerable, and I'm afraid for anybody to see it. And so I protect that behind a false self, which means I can't be touched, means I'm not actually available to the relationship. I'm not really participating in reality. So you've never met a liar. You've only met the lie that they put
out in front of them. And there ain't no soul more lonely until you tell the truth. You can't be touched. And the idea of the the lover. Only the lover sings. Only the lover gets the surprising new love song. That they go knocking on all the doors in the neighborhood. Because only the one who has. Who takes that risk
to let the facade down. To sort of drop the old clay jar by the well, um, and, and stop playing all these games and stop evading and, um, only that person has the opportunity to see and be surprised by the face of God I keep running from reality because I'm so afraid of it. And, um, then I'm just going to stay where I am, going to stay
stuck and untouchable and safe. It's kind of like that Lewis quote about the, you know, you can protect yourself, but the only place where you're really safe from the pains of love is hell.
Yeah.
You know. Yeah, you can stay there, but, um, there's a high, high cost. But the reward is so wonderful. It's just. It's hard to imagine.
Yeah. It reminds me of something you said in in this book that you can't grieve a false reality.
Yeah.
Um, until you face the griefs in your life, you can't, you know, you can't grieve them. Um. And. The hard realities in our life, it's tempting to avoid them. And it's tempting to because a false reality may be more manageable. We may incline toward them, but we can't really grieve them if we if we only put the force field out there.
Right. And the only thing that I, in my experience and I write about this in the book and sing about it in the songs, is that nothing will give us the strength to be able to face those things that are so terrifying or painful. Unless we have someone with us, someone who's glad to be with us, who we know that we're sort of held. Um, so the idea of turning toward the face of Jesus, that's where you find out, like these two things happen at the same time. You find out, oh, I'm held in this beloved,
this gaze of Belovedness. And so I've got now I've got the support I need to be able, in the face of Jesus, to be able to turn and face myself and face the things that I couldn't look at before because they were too scary, but because I know I'm loved and held. Um, in that beholding, I can look at that stuff and and together it can begin to change, begin to heal. And those painful things can be met by that same gaze. And again, that goes back to what's happening at the cross. I think that's
some of what's going on. Um.
Can we bring some of this back to, um, specifically how this relates the way you do creative work?
Sure. Um.
This the. Okay, so maybe we can start with the idea that knowing that you are, uh, delighted in that, that you were created out of delight. Um, how does that mean? I like the way you say. We must keep the feast of song going in the world. Yeah, um, that seems relevant. That that feels like a a a connection between the wisdom that you're talking about with regard to the way we our identity and the way we
do creative work. Um, so keeping the feast of Song going in the world, because that's ultimately what's real and what's true, right? We we are moving toward a wedding feast.
Yes.
That's the foregone conclusion. Nobody ever says, you know, nobody ever uses the phrase foregone conclusions as a foregone conclusion. I'm going to be happy, I guess, you know. Do people ever use a foregone conclusion in positive ways?
No, I think it's almost a negative, you know? Uh, but no, that that is part of the idea of the dream of God is that God has always been dreaming of this particular beautiful destination. You know, the whole world is going to wind up at a wedding feast, and that's wonderful. That's what it was built for.
And death. And all his friends are not invited to the wedding feast.
No, they don't get to come. They would. They would wreck it. But also because, uh, there's a George MacDonald quote I put at the end of, um, the, the epilogue, I think, says all that is not God is death. And so death doesn't get to come to the party of life. Uh, but yeah, we're but we're keeping that feast in this in the mean time. Mhm. Um, and that's kind of part of the idea of the, this middle book is you learned this song, this beautiful, beautiful
song of Belovedness by the well in Samaria. What a big surprise. You didn't expect that. Okay. But it didn't magically fix everything.
Yeah.
It didn't magically make all of your suffering and grief go away. In fact, sometimes, sometimes when you get the support you need, little griefs start coming out of the woodwork because you couldn't deal with them yet. But now you can. And so sometimes things actually get worse when you get the help and the love and the holding
that you need. Um, but in the second book, you've got this album, you got this idea of being by the rivers of Babylon, and now I've got to choose between which tree am I going to abide in the family tree of evil or the family tree of God? And here I am by this river. I'm being mocked. Um. I'm. I'm an exile. I'm not where I want to be. And I'm really tempted to hang up my harp on the poplar and quit singing because I feel like an
idiot singing. I feel stupid singing these songs. And then I look around me, and the songs don't match anything. In my experience, I'm not getting a lot of support from my, you know, and and so they almost give up in Psalm 137 they say, yeah, this is this is stupid. We're never going to see him again. That good foregone conclusion has been wiped out. And um, and then they say, no, no, no, we can't do that.
We've got to keep singing these songs. And part of the idea is, is also this, um, and this is kind of the epilogue to the middle book talks about keeping a feast in the midst of your enemies, and that's that. Psalm 23. He has set a table for me where, like in the most comfortable, wonderful place. No, like right in the middle of enemy territory. And part of the idea is, is that we are being, um. We're being invited to sit at this table and bear
witness to reality. Yeah. The thing that is ultimately an absolutely true. And to do that in a context that that contradicts it, to say something beautiful, where in this thing where all the diction is contra, it is all against that, right?
Yeah.
And to and the hope is that somebody might say somebody's imagination might be supplied with a new image of how life could be, and they might come and join us at the table. So we keep it for the sake of the world and for our own sake. Therefore, let us keep this feast. Let's maintain this feast. And it's a feast of song. And Peter talks about you can't have a wedding feast without the arts. The arts are kind of the fundamentally festive element of of reality
and personhood. And so part of that is like song is very connected for him. Well, and the arts overall are very connected to like this is one of the ways we keep a feast in the world is that we make songs, and we make paintings, and we make food, and we make dances and dresses and, you know, all of these things.
Um, and those things are not just a relief from the fundamental sorrow of the world. They are a they're a pointer to reality that the sorrow is not ultimate.
Right?
It's real. The sorrow is here. The lament is here. And here's something that's that's truer than that.
Here's something that will outlast all of those deaths. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This thing will end up being the only thing strong enough to endure. The only thing durable enough is actually beauty and goodness and song. These things are so durable. Even though they look flimsy to us, they feel like almost an escape escapism or. Um, but they're really not.
They really are a testimony in a way, to bear witness to reality and to not just to bear witness, but to actually participate in it, to actually engage with what is real.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man, that's so good. Matthew, you want to go dig in my garden and write a story? Um.
You should. That's part of my practice. Like I need to make this stuff.
Yeah.
So that I can, um. I mean, I hope that it bears witness to other people and become something in the world. Like a little table that people can come sit at. A little habitat where they can come and meet Jesus and be surprised. Yeah. And it's also a thing that personally, I need to do so that I don't, you know, fly off into nowhere and give up.
Yeah. Okay. So you've been on this project since 2019. What are you going to do with yourself now?
Yeah, I think I probably should rest a little bit and not immediately pick up another project. But I've got a little word document of about 10 or 15 ideas of things I want to work on. But I want to tour. I want to travel around and promote it and get to go out and and be in a room with real people and sing these songs and, and have conversations face to face. So I'm excited to get to do that. Um, this fall, I know for sure. Maybe even some this summer.
Is there an easy way for people to connect with you who want to host you?
Yeah, sure. My website is Matthew Clark. Net and Instagram at Matthew Clark Net. People can message me there or email me from my website.
Right on. All right. Thank you Matthew. It's been so good to spend some time with you.
I always enjoy getting to hang out and talk. Thanks.
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