I learned that my identity is not in what what happens with what comes out at the end of my pen, but is actually in my ability to sit back and listen to it. And if I just follow that, if I could just not forget to do that, you know, because it's so easy to forget to do that, I think.
Welcome to the Habit podcast conversations with writers about Writing. I'm Jonathan Rogers, your host, Judith McQuoid, lives in Belfast, Northern Ireland, the hometown of C.S. Lewis, or Jax as he was known when he lived there. Inspired by Belfast, her love of Lewis and her own family. History. Judith wrote a middle grade novel about young Jax Lewis and an imagined friendship with a boy from a very different background.
It's a book about creativity, friendship, and the ways we can give one another a little more courage and a little more hope. It was my pleasure to talk to Judith McQuoid about her new novel, giant. Judith McQuoid, I'm so glad to have you on The Habit podcast. Thanks for being here.
Thanks for having me, Jonathan.
Um, so your new book is giant.
That's right.
Tell me about it.
Yeah. So, um, it's set in Belfast in the years 1908 to 1910. And it's about two boys growing up in Belfast, um, who were kind of thrown together. Um, Davey is a shipyard boy. Uh, so from a working class background, um, um, it's the story of his imagined friendship with the young C.S. Lewis, who back then and actually still now in Belfast, is was known as Jack's. Um.
I still call him Jack's.
They do? Yeah. They will correct you if you call him Jack. They will correct you and say, no, no, he's Jack's.
Really?
Yeah.
So, um, you've you've been in Belfast most of your life. Is that fair to say?
Uh, no, probably not actually. Um, we lived in Northern Ireland till I was seven, and then we moved to the States for seven years, and then we moved to England. Um, I came back here to go to university, um, but then moved back to England, and we only permanently moved back to Northern Ireland in 2011.
Oh, okay. All right. So have you noticed a difference in, um, I mean, I've heard that that people in the UK aren't as interested in C.S. Lewis as Americans. Right. Have you noticed an increased interest in C.S. Lewis in in Belfast in the since you've been there?
Yeah. Yeah. There was um. So what date would that have been? There was an anniversary, probably of his birth. Uh, that was. Well, that would have been In 1998. So since about 1998, there has been a little bit of an increase, um, in interest. Uh, still not enough, I would say. Um, I think it was Seamus Heaney who said, like in the 1980s or the 1990s. He said it was, you know, a revelation to him at that time that
Lewis was even Irish. Yeah. Um, so so it's still not as big a deal as I would like it to be.
Yeah. Well, let's talk about that, because, um, most of us think of Lewis as a as a Oxford, you know, Oxford. Cambridge. You know, he had that, that plummy accent. Um, and you in this book, uh, spent a lot of time thinking about, um, the extent to which Ireland, Northern Ireland shaped his imagination. And tell me about that. I mean, how did I how well, the floor is open.
Uh, okay.
However you want to talk about that, I'd love to hear you talk about it.
Yeah. I mean, I think, um, Lewis himself never considered himself as English. He always thought of himself as Irish. Um, and I think other people saw him as Irish as well. Obviously, Oxford was a massive part of his life. Oxford and
Cambridge were huge parts of his life, and he loved Oxford. Um, there's a quote from Lewis where he said that, that I think he was talking to another Irishman and, um, he said that his idea of heaven would be Oxford, um, in County Down, um, which was one of his favorite, uh, areas here. But, um, I think it had a, a huge. And he didn't he, he left here when he was very young, but he kept coming back here when he was in school. He was back here for every school holiday. Um,
when he was an adult. Um, he was back here at least once a year. Um, throughout his life, right up until he died. Um, and I think particularly for me particularly, um, when I read the Narnia stories. Um, I now read them looking for places and things and events that are Northern Irish, and I think they are peppered with, um, references to Ulster. And I don't know if he was. I think some of that must have
been conscious. I think some of it was probably subconscious. Um, but it's, it's, it's really interesting as a Northern Irish person now, I live in back in Northern Ireland, particularly, um, to read Narnia and just just to have those little things pop up at you and think, oh my goodness, that is, I know what that is.
What are some examples?
Um, so one of the most obvious examples, um, is caraval. Um, so, um, Lewis and his holidays with his mum. Uh, uh, one of the places that they went to quite a bit was the north coast of Ireland, and there are a couple of places on the north coast of Ireland that clearly influenced, um, the idea of caravel. So, um, Dunluce Castle is one of my favorite places on the planet, and I have loved that place since I was tiny. Um, it's, um,
an incredible ruin of a castle from the 1600s. And that is still standing there on the edge of a cliff. The kitchen at one point, I think, in the Victorian times fell into the water. Um, and it's just incredibly atmospheric. Um, and when you read, um, Prince Caspian, particularly when the, uh, four siblings, uh, come on, car by rail, but they
don't realise what it is because it's in ruin. It's so, um, Dunluce Castle, the other place that I think probably did, um, influence Lewis's imagination is, um, Downhill Demesne, which is not far from Duluth. Um, a little bit further west. Um, now, at the time when Lewis was a child, um, Downhill Demesne actually would have been occupied. It wasn't in ruin,
but it is ruin now. Um, and throughout his life, Lewis probably noticed, probably witnessed that decline of of that particular house, which again, is a big sort of manor house on a near a cliff edge. Um, so.
So you're drawing a parallel between that and parallel also?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think I think, uh, both of those probably influenced his, his imagination. Yeah.
Tell me about his, um, he had a, uh, a nursemaid, uh, I think. Tell me about her.
Yeah. Lizzie? Yeah. Lizzie was from Donegal. Um. And seems to have been very well versed in Irish fairy tales. Irish folktales? Um, so she was telling him those folktales from when he was very young. Um, she went on holiday with them to Castle Rock, which is at the north coast, um, and took them to Downhill Demesne, this old house that fell into ruin. Um, and I, I and lots of other people think that she did have and those stories did have a big impact on him as a child. Um.
Does she appear in, in, uh, your book giant?
He doesn't know she was earlier. Aha. Um, yeah. She was she was quite young when. When Lizzie was part of their household.
Yeah. Well, tell me about, uh, where where this book your book came from. I mean, the what made you decide to be fun, to write a story about juvenile jacks. Louis.
Yeah. So I grew up with my dad was, um, pretty obsessed with C.S. Lewis. I think his interest started during the war with his, um, talk radio talks. Um, but then, um.
Wow. So your dad remembers the the radio talks that became mere Christianity?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. So he heard those on the radio during the war, and Belfast was very badly affected by the war. After London, it was the most bombed city. Really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And not a lot of people know that. Yeah.
No, that's that's the first I've heard of that I guess because of all the shipyards there.
Yes, yes. Yeah. Um, so, um, when we moved to America during that time, my dad, uh, was reading me May the Narnia books at night as bedtime stories.
My first exposure to Narnia books was in the United States instead of over there.
Yeah. In Amarillo, Texas. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, um. And he was a performer, you know, he was he was a a methodist minister. He was very good in the pulpit. Um, but he was also a comedian, you know, and, um, he loved performing, and, um, he would do all the voices, and he was, you know, it was quite the experience. Um, um, and, uh, but sometimes when he closed the book and he was about to turn off the light, he would turn around and say to me, don't you forget he was a
Belfast boy. Um, and that my dad was Belfast boy. My dad was born Belfast. Um, and I think that got in my head. And I thinking back now, I think my dad was only really realising Lewis's Irishness at that point in his life. Obviously, he knew that. He knew that Lewis was Irish, but I think he was the copy of surprised by Joy that I have that belonged to my dad is an American copy. So I think that he was kind of delving into Lewis's biography at about the same time as he was reading minority.
So when my dad passed away, I felt the need for story to console myself. So I started looking into my dad's family history, which I'd never really done. But I was also looking at Lewis's time in Ireland. And then it suddenly dawned on me that. My grandfather, my dad's dad, who I'd never known, and C.S. Lewis had been born in the same part of Belfast at about the same time. Wow. And that just went off like a firework in my head. Like I got out a map and I was looking to see how far away
the two boys were. And, you know, there they were just, you know, within walking distance of each other. Um, so that's where it started.
So Davey, the the friend of Jackson in the novel, um, is his situation in any way similar to your grandfather's situation?
Um, in some ways, yes. There's probably more fiction in David's part of the story than there is in Jack's. Um, because I don't know a lot about my grandfather. I don't know a lot about his childhood. Um, but I know that he lived in the shipyard area of Belfast, but somehow managed to avoid working in the shipyard. Um, so, um, there are some, some bits and pieces in there that are that are gleaned from his life.
Yeah, yeah. Uh, Lewis's grandfather was kind of a higher up in the in one of the shipyards. Is that right?
He had a he owned a shipyard? Yes, he.
Owned.
A shipyard. Yeah, he owned, uh, Lewis, um, McIlwaine and Lewis. Lewis. Uh, it was known as the Way Shipyard and then Harland and Wolff, which built Titanic. Um, it was known as the Big Shipyard. Um.
Oh, you said the wee the wee shipyard?
Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. Um. Uh, well, Judith, as as I have thought about your research, um, and your your book, especially here, that that your first exposure to Narnia was in Amarillo, Texas, which is so funny to me. Um, a theme that's sort of emerging is displacement. You know, you got exposed to this Belfast boy when you went far away from Belfast. Um, I the thought of Lewis displaced from this sort of magical place. He grew up. And, I mean, of course,
Oxford is plenty magical itself, but it was not his home. Yeah. And and his thinking back to the Irish folk tales, the Irish landscapes. There's something about that displacement that seems significant. Um, tell me about that. Did you. Um, we were talking before. Before we started recording about the idea that how often writers are, um, they're writing about where they grew up. Not while they're there, but when they've left.
Mhm. Yeah. And I think that idea of displacement is very much part of our history as a race. You know, that the Irish have emigrated all over the world for various reasons. And I think sometimes the Irish feel more Irish when they leave Ireland. Do you know, they cling to their Irishness? Um, and I think that was the case for Louis. Um. You know, he loved Irish literature. He loved W.B. Yeats in particular. Um, and I, I
think he, um, he really clung to Irishness as an identity. Um. I certainly when we were living in Texas, which was so different from where we had come from, um, the culture shock was, uh, you know, profound for all five of us. Um, I think those stories, which now I realize are so Irish, I think those Narnia stories were comforting to me because they reminded me of home, you know,
as well as as other writers like L.M. Montgomery. Um. You know, I was looking for stories that reminded me of home, but I think I think if you look at the biography of a lot of writers, a lot of writers are displaced and a lot of them, Um, that displacement kind of kicks you out of your own culture and forces you to have to sit back and watch and learn, uh, a bit more, maybe, than if you were feeling comfortable in your own culture, I think.
Yeah, yeah, I know I'm always writing little stories about Warner Robins, Georgia, where I grew up, and I've wondered before if I were living there, would I feel the need to write it down? And just it would just kind of be every day if I still lived there. Although the sort of you could say that we're all as adults, we're always displaced from the world of our childhood. Right?
Yeah.
Um, but but I don't think I would write as many stories about middle Georgia if I were still there.
Mhm. Yeah. It makes you consider your own roots differently, I think.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it's you remarked that Irish people feeling more Irish when they are away from Ireland. You know, I know when I'm saying Washington, D.C. or or visiting New York City, I run into somebody from the South. That's let's talk. And I think about people from the South all the time. Why do I want to talk to them?
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And Lewis in Oxford. Lewis was always looking for Irish people. Yeah. You know, he was always seeking out Irish people. Um, Coghill I think was one of the inklings and he was he was from County Cork, I think. Yeah. Um, so he was always really happy to find an Irishman in Oxford.
Yeah. Uh, Judith, you have been working. How long have you been working on this book?
Uh, ten years.
Ten years?
Yeah. Yeah, but it has had many different forms. So when I started writing it, I was writing it as a screenplay. But it turns out I don't know how to write screenplays. So then, um, then I decided to go back to what I had a vague idea about. So I started writing it as a story.
Yeah. Was it. Did you always know it was a novel, or did you start it as a short story?
No. I always knew it was going to be a novel. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how to write short stories.
By the way. Uh, why is this book called giant?
Yeah. Um, it wasn't originally. Originally, it was called Deviant Jack's. And then my publisher asked me to think about different names. So we kind of semi settled on the giant of Belfast, but then we thought that was maybe too geographically tied. Um, so I like the fact that it's just called giant. It could of course refer to C.S. Lewis himself. Um, there are lots of giants in Irish mythology, um, which come up in the story, um, and the shipyard in
Belfast is also associated with giants. Um because of what they they create is is so giant. So yeah, there's there's a few different reasons. Yeah.
Um, and, uh, tell me about these. You mentioned that it's about a friendship between these two boys. Um, um, but there's also this sort of. I don't know if you call it, would you call it magical realism? But what would you call this, this element of.
Yeah, that's an interesting question. Yeah. I think it steps right up to the edge of magical realism, I think. Uh, so, um, one of the major, one of the major changes that happened to this book along the way is came as a result of a workshop with you inhabit and three other members of the habit. Um, and one of the things you said about it was, you don't need those magical creatures in there, because originally it did have a lot of fantastical creatures in it. And after about a
week when I'd recovered from you saying that. I sat down to look at it, and I. I mean, I thought it was going to take me months to remove that layer of fantastical creatures, and it took me. It only took me weeks. They kind of clicked off the rest of the manuscript, really. It was weird. Um, and I was able to rewrite it and replace a lot of those fantastical creatures got replaced with the books that Jax and Davy are reading together. Uh, the Jax, the
books that C.S. Lewis actually read when he was a child. Um, so they kind of, uh, imagine us using those books as sort of a springboard for their imaginations, but it's it never steps over the line into magical realism, I don't think, but just right up to the edge.
Yeah, yeah. And, uh, you know which books Lewis read from? Just reading. Surprised by Joy. Where do you know? How do you know what books he read?
Yeah. Um, from his letters and from surprised by Joy. Yeah. So, um. Beatrice. Sorry. Beatrix Potter was, um, a big favourite. Um, he loved Mark Twain. Mark Twain's a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's court. Uh, he says that was his first introduction to King Arthur.
Would you believe it? Really? Yeah. Um, yeah. Um, Jonathan Swift, obviously, Gulliver's Travels is a big influence, and that's the other reason why it's called giant, because there's a mountain that looms over Belfast, um, that is supposed to have inspired Gulliver's Travels whenever Jonathan Swift spent some time here.
Is, uh. Is it a giant in repose?
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think there's a there's a mountain that's described as a giant in repose and silver chair, isn't there?
You could be right about that. I don't actually know. That's another thing. I need to look at that.
Um, yeah. Um, that's fun to think about. Him being influenced by Mark Twain and or at least that he read Mark Twain. Yeah. And I always like to point out that Beatrix Potter was, um, influenced by, um, Uncle Remus, you know, the the the really?
Really.
Yeah. She, she read those and loved the, the pictures. Now, I can't remember the name of the illustrator who did those pictures of Br'er Rabbit and and Br'er Fox. Oh, wow. And, um. And so she's she's so you think of what could be more, more British Beatrix Potter. But it's fun to think that that she practiced. She did some illustrations of Br'er Rabbit.
No way.
Before she, you know, decided to to make her rabbit a little English rabbit.
I did not know that I love that, I absolutely love that. I've spent a 3 or 4 years ago, we spent some time, uh, we spent a week, um, very near where Beatrix Potter lived, um, swimming in a lake. And, um, was hanging out at her college. Um, yeah. And that's a million miles away from Br'er Rabbit.
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And of course, Br'er Rabbit was, uh, the next county over from, uh, Flannery O'Connor. Uh, of.
Course. Yeah.
So I think now we found out that Flannery O'Connor influenced C.S. Lewis.
Yeah, yeah, we knew we'd get there.
We'd get there eventually.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, okay, now, would you mind telling the story of, of the, the arduous journey of this book to publication?
Yeah. So it's been a bit of a roller coaster. Really? Um, so I thought my book was ready, um, sort of 2019 time. So I sent it out to a publisher. Um, and the first one said, yes, um, first one. So the first one. Yeah. So, um, early 20. No, early 2021. That was, um, I signed a contract. Um, they said it would take about two years, as it normally does. Um, so we were kind of working on it, but not,
not not a lot. Um, and then a few couple of months before it was due to be published, they emailed me and said that because of their financial situation, they weren't going to be able to publish it anymore. Um, so I was back to square one, really. Um, so I went from being Debbie writer back to housewife. In the course of reading an email, which was yeah, it taught me a lot about identity and, um. What you rest in, um, but it was good for me. I picked myself up off the ground, and I got myself
an agent. Um. And, um, he started sending it out. And then eventually, about a year later, um, my Irish publisher opened for submissions for two weeks. Um, we got it in. Um, they said they loved it. So I've ended up with this wonderful, small but mighty Irish publisher. I think this is the first time anything about Lewis has been published in the Republic of Ireland.
Wow.
Um. And back in 1917, Lewis was writing to his Belfast friend Arthur, and he said that he would love for his stuff to be published in Dublin. Um, which never happened, obviously. Um, so yeah, it's interesting.
So your publishing house is in Dublin? Yes. The Republic of Ireland. Not not Northern Ireland. Yeah. Um, are there publishers in in Belfast in Northern Ireland?
Um, there are small publishers. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Um, well, I'd love to tell me more about what you learned about identity from getting your book dropped.
Uh, yeah. So that day, the email day. Um, I, I don't know what I was doing in the morning, but, um, I really felt that I should go out in the garden. We had a tent. I think we were having a heat wave. Sometimes it's easier because we have. We don't have aircon. Right? So we, um. Sometimes it's easier to sleep outside than it is inside, um, when it's really hot. Um, so we had a tent outside in the garden, and I just felt that I should go outside and just
sit in the tent. And as I entered the tent, I just felt the presence of God really, really powerfully. Um, and I just felt like everything was going to be okay, even though I thought everything was okay. And then later on, it was later on that evening when I got the email, um, from the publisher to say they weren't going to be able to do it. And I immediately connected that to
what had happened earlier on in the day in the garden. Um, so I just I had this really funny reaction to that email where I was upset, but also, oh, hang on, this is this is an adventure that I'm on. This is like I am letting go of something I thought was. Set in place for me. I, I'm letting I've, I have to let go of that and I have to not hold on to that. Um, and in the process of getting it out to other publishers, you know, that whole whirlwind of submissions, um, you learn that if you
don't get it published, it's okay. You know, that actually, you learn to listen. I think I learned I really impatient by nature Guitar, and I have learned through that whole experience the wonders of waiting on the Lord. Um, of just saying I am inadequate and insufficient for this. And I will lay this down if you want me to. But actually, every single time I offered to lay it down, he told me to pick it back up again, like,
every single time. Um, so it's I think I learned that my identity is not in what, what happens with what comes out at the end of my pen, but is actually in my ability to sit back and listen and to wait. And if I just follow that, if I could just not forget to do that, you know? Yeah. Um, because it's so easy to forget to do that, I think.
Yeah. When you talk about waiting, Um, to what extent is that relevant to the actual creative process, and to what extent are you just talking about the sort of I mean, obviously with regard to publishing and things like that, I see how that applies. Maybe that's what you're talking about, but are you talking about the actual work of writing also?
Yeah, I think I probably am. Um. Not just writing, but also editing. I find, um, maybe even more so in the editing process. So it's things like, I really wanted the two boys in the story to go and see an early film together, um, like a silent film, and I, um. I really wanted them to go and see a George Melies movie. So I started looking at, um, George Melies movies, and then I discovered that he made a movie of. Gulliver's Travels and Gulliver's Travels was already
in there, and I just thought that. But it felt like that just landed in my lap. You know, um, during the editing process, that it. It's like a wedding, but then also a discovering kind of thing. And I suppose that waiting there is something about finding treasure that is like waiting as well. Do you know? Um.
Tell me.
About that. I find the writing process is a discovery. Process feels more like discovery to me than creating. Um, it feels more like the more I just put pen to paper. The more that I am pushing on doorways, the more that things are given to me. And that it's sometimes that sometimes that is out of my own imagination. Okay. My my own experiences, you know, you can see that in there, but there are also things in there. Sometimes I read that story back and I think, well, where
did I how did I get to that? You know, and I, I think some of those things I was given.
Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Um the I'm actually going to be talking to somebody in later this morning in another podcast. Mhm. Um I ran across an idea in a book by Warren Kinghorn. Um who he pointed out that for Plato an idea was something outside you And so if I have an idea, it's really that something in, in my mind is conforming itself to a reality that's out, that's outside.
And since, you know, the enlightenment or whatever, we've come to think of an idea as something that happens inside your head, right?
Yeah.
And I think it's, you know, I think what you're talking about there may be relevant to that, you know, that you of course, there's something going on inside your head when you have these ideas. Um, but maybe it's not just going on inside your head. Mhm.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think I love this idea of the coding of story as well that, you know, we, we absorb our culture and we absorb all those stories that we read and we absorb all our experiences. And then when we write all of that pours out of us somehow, you know? Um, a family member has recently read Giant. And I said, I said, I said, how much of our family like the the my childhood family, how much it feels like that. And I had I had no idea that it would feel like that, you know.
Yeah. I wonder, um. When you speak of the all your cultural influences going into that cauldron. Um, I don't mean this isn't a this isn't a question. I don't I don't know what it is, but maybe you have something to say about it. Your your cultural experience just from being across the ocean from me. You know, we have a lot. There's plenty of overlap in our cultural experience. We've had a lot of books and that kind of thing. Um, but I wonder I wonder how that what that means,
how that makes its way out into what you've written. Because, um, I love that insight that your family member said that this feels like you're. Of course it does. What else could it? What else are you going to write?
Yeah. Yeah. And I think I think it's it's sometimes it's tiny things, isn't it? I think as writers. We get really fruitful when we focus on tiny things.
Oh, tell me about that.
Um, so I, I spend a good chunk of my morning did it this morning walking the family and with my collie dog. Um. There is some sort of connection between how much attention I pay to, um. What stage the cow parsley is at. Yeah. How green the grass is. Yeah. Where the oak leaves are at. And my creative productivity. Later on in the day, there is some sort of connection between that focus on small, beautiful things and my creativity.
And I don't understand. But it's as if, um, that focus on the small and the beautiful creates fertility somehow in my imagination. Yeah. And it also connects me to my childhood. Because those those that Lee and I walk in the morning is the same sort of lanes I walked when I was a kid. And it connects me back to my childhood. And I think the same thing was happening with Lewis. You know, I think he was
writing out of the leaf mold of his mind. Um, out of all of those Irish and English experiences, um, to create something beautiful.
I'm interested in thinking about. What's the relevance of the fact that it's the same lane every day that you're walking? You know, that's that's where you get to start noticing the small things. Yeah. Um, and, you know, when you when you go on tour, you know, when you, when you're a tourist, you're noticing the big, you know, there's the,
there's the pyramid and there's. Yeah, Big Ben, you know, and, and, uh, and when you walk the same lane every day and there's nothing big to notice anymore that you haven't noticed before, you start noticing the little things.
Yeah, absolutely. And that that I noticed that process in me actually during lockdown because as a family, we were walking the same lanes because there was nothing else to do. Um, because we were, you know, we were geographically confined. We weren't allowed to leave the village or whatever. Um, but suddenly we knew at what time of the year the cow parsley comes in bloom. And when the speedwell flowers
come in bloom. And we were brought back to that simplicity of of nature and of seasons and of growth and of slowness. Um. Uh. That was a it was a beautiful thing, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah. I had the same experience here. I started noticing, you know, which kind of birds.
Yeah.
Live here?
Yeah. Yeah.
All right. Well, um. That's so good. Thank you. Judith. I want to hear from you. Hopefully you're ready for this question. Who are the writers that make you want to write?
So I could say Lewis and Tolkien, but actually, I find them quite intimidating.
Mhm. Yeah.
And if I spent too long thinking about the wonders of their work, then I probably never would work. Would write. Um, so I'm going to say Ellen Montgomery, because she was a massive influence on me as a child as well. And she reminded me of home, and she feels much more attainable. Um, and I'm actually going to say, also, I don't read much nonfiction, but I love anything that
Katherine Rundell writes about writing. Um, so her tiny little book, uh, called Why You Should Write Children's, Why You Should Read Children's Fiction book, even though you are so old and wise is just fantastic.
Okay.
Absolutely brilliant. Um, just makes me want to write as many hours in a day as I can.
Is Katherine Rundell the one who wrote the the John Donne book?
Yes, I think she is. Yeah. She's an Oxford scholar.
Um.
Yeah, but she also writes children's fiction.
Okay. Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah.
All right. I'm glad you mentioned her.
No, she's. She's amazing on children's fiction.
Okay.
Give me real just a couple of things from that book that got you excited.
Um, that children's fiction is is about things like wonder and awe that aren't always in adult fiction.
Mhm.
Um, and that they are about children's fiction is about, um, empathy and about experiencing the world. Um, not only do you get to experience somebody else's world, you know, either geographically or, you know, a fantastical landscape, but you're also experiencing them and their life.
Mhm.
Yeah. Um, and it just is. So, um, mind expanding, uh, to be able to do that.
Well, Judith McQuoid, I'm so excited about this book coming out, and congratulations. And I hope a whole bunch of people read it.
Thanks, Jonathan.
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