Welcome back. We're here to continue our conversation with Chris Hatfield from Sales Psyche.
There's been a great conversation with as we've explored sort of growth and leadership, how important that is to businesses, right? We we speak to a lot of our guests about, you know, leadership and the importance and actually, how if leadership isn't thriving or optimized, it can actually be the demise of an organization. But in talking about growth, we sort of see leaders often focus on motivation. Yeah, really, as you sort of say, right, come on, guys, let's get going. But
you've got a different slant on that. You've got a different view about leaders and motivation. Is that correct?
Yeah, yeah.
I'd love you to share that to the guests.
Yeah, I think there's, there's two or three things. I think, first of all, it's addressing this, those kind of three big myths I see around motivation. The first is that you should be able to get to this place where you're constantly motivated, which I don't think is is healthy or actually possible, because this idea that you and people this is often driven by your perception of other people online or offline, or seeing people around you being successful, and
thinking, God, they're so constantly motivated. And even you'll hear people who you might perceive like this saying they're not. Is that is these people don't rely on motivation. They rely on often, habits, but they rely on creating motivation through action. And this perception of thinking I should always be motivated, is a downfall for people, because when you're not, you judge yourself. When you are you then you then wonder where it's gone. You're like, hang on, I was
super motivated last week. Super motivated before I went to bed last night. Why have I woken up and felt like this, which often ironically takes you more away from motivation, because you feel demotivated as a result of it. So the perception in itself, it's the same with happiness, I think, is people see it as a
destination, whereas actually it can come in waves. And Simon Sinek talks about this surfer mentality in a different context, and I kind of use it in a different way, in that, you know, some days you're riding a wave, some days you're under one, but wherever you are, you're not stuck there. And like every good surfer knows, no matter how good the wave is, it's coming down at some point, not in a negative way. But I need, I want to prepare myself for this so I can catch the next
wave. And that's the thing as well. With motivation, you're going to have those waves so interesting when you come down from it, don't judge yourself, because the more you do that, the longer you stay on the water. Focus on, what did I do to get there in the first place? What was I thinking, feeling and doing? What's in my control right now to catch the next one? But don't then think, Oh, I just need to wait for motivation.
And I like this because it's important to be quite human, is that when growing up, when I was in my teenage years, like, I think as all if I may say that we did things that weren't particularly that good, right, embarrassing, or we shouldn't have done that, and we got told off, and I remember, I can't name the exact situation, but to that point about the surfing analogy, I used to see it as a newspaper, and I think because of my expressive nature, I'd always
want to be at the front of the newspaper. Hey, look at me. Hey, look at us while we're doing a podcast. But, but that that definitely was the way I used to look at things in my head, maybe not aligned to motivation, but the way I used to see it was that always want to get to the front, but actually I'd probably sit in the middle most of the time. That's fine. I'm not not seen. I'm not not seen, but when things are getting really I'm at
the back. That's fine, because I know where I am. I've just then got to put my self with some actions to go forward and learn how to get back forward. It just resonates with me when you're describing that.
Yeah, and it's just making peace of it and understanding that it's okay not to motivate all the time. You know, the more you beat yourself up about it, that's going to make you move further away. The second thing to focus on, which I think is a myth. A lot of people think I need to be motivated to take action. I don't feel motivated to make calls today. I don't feel motivated to do this home admin task, whatever it might be, or paint the walls or something.
You know, I don't feel motivated now. I always ask people like, if you go for a workout, if you go to the gym, if you go for a run, like, how do you feel afterwards? How do you feel after you go for your walk, say, in the morning without a phone.
I know how I feel. How much better my wife, remarkably, says, I can tell you've done some exercise this week and you have thing, because you're basically a nicer person.
Yeah, so the answer there is, you feel really good at the end of it, like you. And that's the thing. Is, motivation comes from action. A lot of people perceive I need motivation to act, but action can spark motivation, and the realization of that is it puts you more in control of your own motivation. And go, hang on. This is something I can influence. I'm not at the mercy of. If I didn't wake up today, motivate. That's okay because I've been asleep for eight
hours. Like, yes, I can wake up some days and, you know, but some days I can't. And that's alright, but it's then going, What can I do to spark motivation, rather than I don't feel motivated? Is, what can I do right now? I could go for a walk, I could put on a playlist, I could speak to someone I know is going to get me into a good headspace.
And thinking about that, it's helpful from a sort of self service perspective, if you're a leader listening to this in a growth environment. What? What what are some of the things that you could do to encourage your people not to stay motivated, but to manage this situation? Like, what would you suggest?
Well I think the other thing here is that leaders should focus less on, how do I motivate my team, and more, how do I inspire them? So, you know, you it's physically impossible to motivate someone else, because the idea, as well, the problems that come from that is you can. Make people overly dependent on you. And then if you're on holiday, or the team
gets bigger, they have less time with you. Then they start going, Oh, you've, you've because they rely on you so much, they start sort of criticizing you more, going, Well, why do you have as much time for me as well? The team's gone from five to 20, and when you when they leave, they'll then realize, oh, actually, like, hang on, I haven't built any tools here the tools. So I think the biggest thing that a manager can help with this is, first of all, better understanding what your
team's aspirations are. We talk a lot about motivation, but inspiration and aspiration often get overlooked. Is like, what are you trying to build towards? And the analogy often use here. If you're going past a building site, we'll get curious. Don't we have what they building? This person's walking past one day, and he asked the first person he sees, and I'm playing bricks, and he goes, don't know what that pretty means. Next person building a wall. Okay, don't really understand. Goes along
site managers there, what are you building? They say, we're building a hospital. Now, I often ask people, what's the most important thing there? It's a bit of a trick question, because they all are but it's quite an interesting question to ask people, because some people go the bricks, some people go to hospital. Hang on, if you're focusing on if you're focusing on the hospital, who's going to build it, focusing on the bricks? Which way are you going if you're not focusing on the
walls? That's a big gap in between. And what you want to look at is, do you understand your team's hospital, their own individual one, and encouraging them not just have one, because you don't want them to put all their identity. What are they trying to build towards? Have you helped them identify their walls along the way, because laying a brick and building hospital are two big things apart. And then have you helped them understand what the habits would be the bricks each day to
be able to get there? Because then once you understand someone's hospital, you then know what was inspiring them, or how to inspire them, and you know what kind of conversations to have with them going You said you wanted to work towards this, like, what have you done this week around that? Or what can I do to support you here? Or when they're maybe feeling a bit off, is going, what's what's changed? Is this something you still want to achieve?
And it talks right to you know, what good leadership, if I think about what good leadership is, is coaching, is helping someone like that, like you said, the inspiration, asking questions to drive that, that thought and understanding what it is that somebody needs, rather than saying, Okay, well, yeah, I need to motivate you. So I'm gonna carry you to your point. Because then, when you've got your hands full of everybody and you need to put some people down, they feel dropped, versus
being able to say, actually, I need to help. I'm sort of right behind you, just giving you nudges, just reminding you of the important things.
Yeah, exactly. It's it's going and some leaders struggle with this because they then think, hang on, this is where their own self tool comes in. Are they going to think less of me if I'm not giving them an answer? Are they going to think I'm not giving them a support? Am I? Am I going to look like I'm not leading, if I'm not doing for people, or...
Am I going to frustrate them by not giving them an answer? I think a lot of leaders think by asking great coaching questions and coaching someone in that way and really helping inspire them, as you say that you're just sort of taking the easy road and not answering a question, so you're actually frustrating the person who's just asking for support.
Yeah, I think there is, again, it's sometimes people go into this black or white, thinking I even need to ask really great questions, or I need to give them everything. And it's at the start, almost imagining, like stabilizers is going. How can I do a bit of both? How can I ask a question? If I see someone who's getting a bit frustrated or stressed, I can give them a hint, and then I can say, and what else do you think? So, I might say, ask them a question. You know, how would
you go about this? You said you wanted to achieve this. What would that look like for your week? Maybe this okay? And here's something that worked for me based on that. What else do
you think could work for you and what else and what else? And just kind of balancing the two, rather than thinking, I have to go down this route, because that's where some people struggle with they go, have to be a coach, and then your team's getting really frustrated, and you either abandon that and think, Well, I'm not going to try that again, or you stick at
it and then you just frustrate people in your teams. They never come to you for any questions, because they just think, Oh, he's just going to reverse it back to me all the time.
Yeah. I mean, that's, again, a really, I think, really, really powerful, important point there around think about that kind of key takeaway there of not trying to motivate, but trying to inspire, I think, or might help a lot of leaders in changing their kind of mindset or approach to that.
Yeah, Chris, I'm interested, because a lot, a lot what you talk about, a lot, what you author, a lot, what you support your clients with, is, is like the turbocharged version of, we do three parts to our work at SBR systems. So, you know, what are your processes in your organization to enable your sales leadership, marketing leadership, sales effectiveness, and marketing effectiveness work, we talk a lot about the skills naturally we've, you know, we've got to be quite
skillful as professionals. And we also about, you know, the mindset as well. So motivation you talk about, you talk a lot about unproductive thinking patterns at the moment, which really black and white thinking you've talked about some others today. I'm really curious if, if we had a panel of like, you know, CROs in front of us, right? Do you how would you think they index those three things skills per. Processes, systems and motivations to be the thing that's going to drive
growth. What's their perception at the moment when you're talking to CROs, is it? Do they downplay the motivation? That's what I'm probably biasing here a little bit. Or where do you think they think about things at moment?
I think it's very easy again to look at the tangible thing that's in front of us, the skill we need to give them more product training. We need to give them more objection handling training. It's like, well, hang on, have you talked about the objections in their own head, the self talk? You know, those blockers? Yeah, exactly. Great one. It's going we need to give them time management. What about how they manage their energy? Like, I kind of address this in the
book. Is, like, there's so much of the foundation underneath that, that this is built on, is you can give, you know, in in sales, in any environment, you know, we're looking at
technology, we're giving people more access to tools. And the biggest tool you have is your mind, and if you're not taking care of it, then you're not going to be someone isn't going to be able to fully sort of equip themselves, or able to take full group, full sort of ownership of the skill set side of things, or the system side of things as well, because they've got their own self talk and challenges going on around it. So I definitely think it is something that it's, I wouldn't
say, like universal blanket approach. There are certainly more people now recognizing the value of it, but there's that almost balance. Sometimes of thinking, Oh, it's more of a tick box exercise. Sometimes, of we just need to do this to make them feel good. And it's like, okay, you know, you might make them feel good in the moment, but then they're going to go back and you're almost doing more harm than good, because they're like, we know why you did that.
Yeah. Well, I'm a massive advocate of it. I know that some of your clients that we know of as well, I've spoken to them, they that they rave about you. They think you're phenomenal, and clear you are because you've got a great business. I just think about the impact of wellbeing. And I work with a financial wellbeing organization, and I was like, why on earth is financial wellbeing not one of the biggest things that's spoken about in school? It's just, let alone
actually wellbeing as a whole. So I think, you know, in business, if we, you know, if we can start to bring in some of these ideas, I think it would just be great for us, not only at work, but also outside of work. And that's the impact, isn't it? You can take these techniques out.
Yeah. I've probably related more of what you've talked about to outside of work type situations. In my own life. It's so, so important. As I said before, it's not just about what we do in here, but I think or what we do in our in our jobs, but I think also is this is a real lever for success, and I'm thinking about tying this right the way back from because I know with the Run Club, it's about providing that space to help your mental well being. And how exercise is such a great not
just exercise. I know you talk more about this, there's other reasons why that works in the in running specifically, but also just the impact that your health and how you look after your body, and how that impacts the way you can look after your mind, and how it's all tied together. And I think it's great that we're getting more that this is a this is a more sort of
recognized conversation to be having, I think. And I think the more it gets into businesses, and more it gets into that kind of psyche, and I'm not suggesting that all businesses should start, kind of run clubs and put gyms in the basement and everything else, but actually, there's something to be said for people in your teams feeling like they've got the opportunity to go. I just need to get outside for a bit. I just need to step away from my desk and go and, you know, and go and do
this I've just done. I've got 100 calls to do today. I can't just sit here and and back to back those otherwise I'm just going to be completely shot.
Yeah, and that kind of ties into psychological safety is knowing that there's a company. You're not saying that people can turn up as not themselves every day and but you're telling them, when they do, they will feel safe to be able to talk about it, and they'll feel understood, and
they'll feel like, supported. That's the kind of key difference here, around that and going that I do have that space to go out from my desk, and I feel like I'm not going to get judged, or other people are gonna be like, Oh, you're weak, or this person always needs to go outside. Is it's normalized. It's actually like, celebrated, oh, it's good that you got out. Like, rather than, why'd you keep leaving the office? Like, why aren't you back at your desk?
So the previous job, we used to have a Friday lunch Run Club, and we'd always kind of go out for and I think it was helped by the fact that obviously this was pre covid When we were all in the office. Was helped by the fact that we were there was a group of us. So it was almost like, hang on that that you talk about normalizing it all of a sudden. That gives other people who maybe didn't feel like they feel like they
had that freedom. And, you know, at the time, it was a group of senior people in the business who were doing that right, like we were, we were the leadership team, essentially. So again, you then then people who were looking around going, you know, they've gone out and they're taking that time, and they've come back and they had their lunch, and they're not apologizing for for doing that. I think that's so important.
Yeah, and then that psychological safety piece, yeah, it's something that, when we, we do a lot with growth officers and, you know, learning and development professionals or CPOs, and you always hear like, the the growth officers that push is just pushing them so hard. And I wonder, what's that? Self talk, as you were talking about in their own head, which means it's translating to their individual contributors and their other leadership members. But then the CPO say, well,
we've got to remember about psychological safety. And then the Cgo or CROs, go, Nah, don't worry about it. We've just got to get going. So I think there's a bit of friction that goes on in businesses about psychological safety. Have you seen that?
Yeah, and I think, again, it's down to no one's fault, but a lack of education, understanding of the value that that comes from it, first and foremost for the individual. And you know how they'll benefit from it, that will then subsequently benefit the business as a result. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's like going, if you treat the person as the person that they'll then, you know, it's a bit like when say Trust, the process is like, well, trust the person. Take
care of the person. They'll take care of the process, and the process will work. So if you're saying one thing is a business, trust the process, follow our sales process, well, give people that space to feel supported within it, and then they'll trust the process. It needs to work both ways. And some companies don't. They say, well, trust the process, but we don't care about that kind of safety side of things, it's the process...
We're going to hammer you forecast accuracy, because now we can see it, because we've got a new process. Yeah? Oh yeah, no, thanks. Mr. Boss, Mrs. Boss. I'm not going to do that.
Yeah. But I think one thing like, because I'm always conscious of podcasts or I had, what's this tangibly mean? And I think one thing that leaders and I see people struggle with sometimes is they see vulnerability and accountability on opposing scales, and I will if the more vulnerable I am, or the more like we give people that freedom, the less accountable they're going to be. And that, again, that could be black and white thinking in place. It's
not always the case. And I think the best thing about vulnerability is it builds relatability. And vulnerability doesn't always have to be, oh, you know, I'm really struggling today, and this is what's going on. It can be coupled with guys, do you know what? Actually, I'm having a bit of a I spoke to this was a senior leader, and he had a group of people on a on a zoom, about 70 or 80 people. CRO, and you know, how is everyone murmuring as he goes, guys, I'm having a really
stressful day. But you know what? I'm going to go out for a run at lunch, and this is going to, like, really help me. I'm gonna leave my phone in the office, and I'm gonna go for a run, and the key one there, everyone else afterwards, you know what? Me too, like, you know, Oh, it didn't, it didn't
say, oh, everyone can just have the day off. But that's the thing, if, when you're being vulnerable, if you can give people an idea of, here's how you here's how I can deal with it the same time or not saying, here's an instant solution, but here's something I'm going to try. Then you give people that space and freedom to feel like actually, I can. I'm allowed to feel like this as well, not in the way of I can just go and
moan about it or vent about it all week. But something like that is still constructed to talk through, but talking through it in a way of just getting out there and then finding something. And I think some leaders then go, I can't be vulnerable. I can't be like this. It's going well. Think about your stories. You know, think about, I often say, like your superhero origin story, like, because some people might see you as this leader who is like, oh my god, they're so
confident, they're so calm. Is like, you won't like that all the time. Tell people, hey, look, I used to struggle with this, and this is how I deal with it. And this kind of links into resilience. Because I think one of the things that people misunderstand resilience is that it's not just about you, it's about other people. You could be the most resilient person. And we'll take an example here. Let's say a business has had 40 people. They've cut 50% of their staff. They've got 20 now let's
say 10 people are have been there for a while. They think I can handle this. I'm resilient. I'm fine. 10 people aren't those 10 people that aren't see the people that are fine, and go, they're fine. Why am I not me? They then start, maybe starting thinking negatively and worrying. And then you got 50% your business that's creating this culture here that is then going to start impacting the other 50% who were fine in the first place, that are now in an environment that isn't the most
healthy. And maybe go, I don't want to be in this environment. I'm going to leave. So you can use it's important to realize how much that kind of collective resilience is important as well. When you look at it in sport, you look at it and what's going on in the world right now, that kind of collective resilience is what really gets people together. So yes, you want to take care of yourself, and I don't like this, put your own oxygen mask on first, because, again, it's a very reactive
thing that only happens often. When the plane's going down is like, Well, how do you do it? How can you take care of yourself before the plane's going down? Is what I often say. But then also think about the collective so if you are a leader or a senior person in the team, and you deal with things really well, don't forget to share with people around you of
how you've got to that position. And here's what I used to struggle, here's how I used to react, and here's what I did to get there, and here's how I see it now.
This has been one of the most thought provoking conversations I've ever for a long, long while. So thank you. You're welcome. And the tangible takeaways that you know, as I say back, we resonate with these sort of things, and not only because of a business, because we do similar things and we come from the same, you know, backgrounds in that respect, you know, sports coaching was my background, you know, from sort
of learning these these models, it's just resonates. But actually, I think sometimes I haven't given enough thought or time to put into practice. So I think your book with all of those frameworks will be those things where I'm going to go on the Christmas list, please, and then actually just take some time. You know. A four box model, rather than a, rather
than a list. You know, overwhelming happens on an awful lot in my my year, you were saying recently about, you know, you get towards the end of the year and, you know, the fumes are...
Annual Christmas burnout, yeah. Yeah. And I completely agree, Johnny. And I think actually having those, having those really practical things, Chris, for people to sort of take away and and put into practice. And I think something we've heard over the last few guests that we've had on the podcast is around, I think patience and pace is so, so important. With all of this, right? We can't fix this, where's no fixing anything anyway, but we can't enact all
of this stuff overnight. It's a journey that we've got to go on and for leaders thinking about their teams, and for individuals thinking about themselves, we got to think about it that way, right?
Yeah. Well, I think there's a balance here. I think is being patient, but still taking action within the action. So some people will say, sometimes, when I talk about things easier said than done, that's the biggest limiting belief you can tell yourself, because as soon you say it's
easier said than done, you won't do it. No, yeah, exactly, yeah, everything is easier said than done, yes, but being patient with something, giving yourself that compassion to go look the tools I talked about today, and I talk about this in the book, don't expect to master them straight away. It's okay. Some days you might forget to do the brain dump. Some days you might
find it really frustrating, and that's okay. Or the other tools, I noticed they neutralize, but that's the point is, use them before you need them, like you drink water before you're dehydrated, you eat before you're absolutely starving. Like, do the same thing with these kind of tools. Be patient with them, but also then try and practice that habitual practice proactively. And go, yes, I want to give myself time, but I still want to be intentional with this, to allow it to resonate.
Intentional, yeah, I think intentional kind of sums up a lot of what we've talked about today. So yeah, as Johnny said, Chris, it's been incredibly insightful. Thank you so much for coming on the growth workshop podcast and all the very best with the book, I'm sure it's gonna be a massive success, based on what we've heard today, and I very much look forward to reading it.
You're welcome. Thanks for having me.
Thanks, Chris.
Cheers.