Episode 10, Part 1 - The Psychology of Sales Success with Chris Hatfield

Turn my pain into a passion, almost. So I probably came out of university when I first realized I struggled a lot of anxiety, and this was 1516, years ago, so back then, there wasn't as much of an awareness or understanding or even a label around it, and I'd gone to uni and done sports coaching, I'd always had a fascination with development and an interest of sport, and I came out, and like most people did back then, fell into sales. Door sales in particular, go and knock 100

doors a day. Get into a closed floor selling loft and cabbie or insulation 100% commission, go and do your thing. So most people would say that's probably anxiety inducing for anyone. But at the time, I kind of thought, You know what, I don't want this to define me. I thought, if I, if I don't do this, then will it stop me? Will it get into the mindset of, actually, I can

avoid this because of this? So I thought, well, let's go and apply some of the tools and the understandings I've got from my degree, and for one, to use your degree, which most people don't really and started to realize that actually I was changing the way I was looking at my anxiety, changing the way I was responding to my emotions, to my perspective, to my self talk, and with having that kind of coaching mindset. Always wanted to support other people. That's where I got my fulfillment. So

it was never much of a lone wolf when it came to sales. So as I went through my career, I was giving people advice and suggestions and tools and realizing actually this was making a big difference. And thought, okay, eventually I want to do something bigger with this. So I started a podcast years ago now, and then started thinking, right, how can I break away from sales more into coaching? And went and did a

coaching degree. And with the idea of being that being in sales, I saw particularly mindset and well being was a very reactive thing, like wait for a problem, wait for someone not to be motivated, wait for someone to be burnt out, and then we'll do something about it. Or someone's thinking of leaving, oh, what can we do? And it's like, well, why aren't we doing more preventative and proactive work in the same way

you would with a product or skills training? So I just felt like this was a big gap, and started going in and delivering talks and workshops around it, and then fell, do you know what? Actually, this is something I can turn into a business. So about four and a bit years ago, during the pandemic, I thought, You know what? Let me go and start something? You know, I've always been, not always, but in the last few years, always ask

myself the question, what's the impact of not doing this? Things very easy to think when you're thinking about something of all the things that could go wrong. But as we'll probably come to later on, the idea of almost making where you are now uncomfortable or unfamiliar can actually provoke action as well.

And I thought I'll probably resent myself. I'll resent my job eventually, and when am I going to have a better time to speak about mental health than the pandemic, because unfortunately, obviously it's not a good thing that the pandemic happened, but it did bring the conversation of mental health to the forefront where it belongs. So did that start sales

psyche? And have been doing that ever since, delivering workshops talks with the aims of equipping managers and salespeople with the tools to build a healthy and high performing mind along the way. And recognizing the well being isn't just about making yourself feel better, it, it can elevate your performance as

thank you so much, Chris for sharing your story. And I know you know, a lot of what you do in in this space is going to be coming together in a in a book called sales psyche. Is that right?

healthy and high performing mind, is the idea behind it. So I packed it with 35 of my activities and tools that I coach and train with, 25 leaders from the industry, as well stories from people I've coached with the idea of giving people the tools to build that productive, proactive mindset that will ensure that you're not only successful, but not at the cost of your your well being really so that's something that will be coming out later this year that I'm really excited

about. And just giving people and this sort of platform, I think this is bigger than me, this topic, but I want to be able to contribute in some way to go, we've evolved. So much in the world of sales, it's about time we evolved in this part as well.

were later on this year. So I mean, just taking, I guess it kind of a bit of a pause there, before we get into the heart of today's conversation, which is really kind of diving deeper into the psychology of sales success, as is customer on the Growth Workshop Podcast, Chris, we like to ask you what's been interesting in your world for the last across the last week.

So tell us what's, what's going on in in your world at the minute, that's that's kind of fascinating that you could share with our audience.

giving people a space once a week. We have a different topic each week and questions around that topic that people pick at random, and then we'll ask each other on a run around Hyde Park, and we've covered topics like comparison with others, happiness, habits, and it's allowed people to give them that space where a lot of us want to talk about these things, but hey, we think, am I going to be a burden? B, how do I bring this up? How do I bring up my friends? Hey, do you compare

yourself with other people? Like, how do I approach that? Whereas this kind of provides that space to go, this is where we do talk about those things that maybe you can feel more comfortable to then go and have a conversation with your partner, with your friend, with your colleague. Afterwards, take that question with you and go, Hey, I got this question, or run Club today, like, What's your thoughts on this?

professionals to be successful. But this question, and Matt, brace yourself, what is one habit you wish more people could learn and benefit from?

chocolate, you crave the state it delivers. And once you work out what state you want to you're looking for, you can then recognize, actually, I'm not sort of bound by this unhealthy habit, but it's actually something that I can replace it with. But I one habit I think I wish more people could learn, and I talk about it a lot, is something I started about four or five years ago, which was leaving my phone out of the

bedroom. So going to bed in the evenings, I used to scroll if I couldn't sleep, I used if I woke up, I'd maybe just grab it, and then I'd wake myself up, and in the morning, it was the first thing I grabbed. And I always felt sort of chained to that, because you then see all the notifications. And then I

thought, Okay, this is something I want to start doing. So I started sort of two or three days a week, then four days, and then started recognizing and reflecting, how do I feel, giving myself something to do, and now it's allowed me just to go right. The bedroom is for sleeping. I don't scroll. In the evening, I can switch off a lot quicker. I also feel like I'm sleeping more consistently. And then in the morning, I always then go right. What can I do for myself before I think about what

others want from me? And that has been a habit that's just like revolutionized, and it's an example of habits that they can be the smallest of things, that can make the biggest of differences as well.

removing technology before. All going to bed, actually, for the fact of having better time with my wife and being a bit more present. I think the only area of my life, I say it now only that's a bad word to use. One of the areas of my life is to be a bit more present with my wife. And I think technology is a real sort of challenge, and I'd like to manage that better, and I think the benefits would be phenomenal. So I'm probably on

that journey. I don't think I've nailed it yet, so sorry if I'm gonna answer your question completely.

when I'm in mine. And I think it sort of links, I think, to what both of you are saying, which is around this, the ability to kind of disconnect, properly, disconnect from work. And this thing, I'll call it a thing, because I forget whether it was a video or whether it was a conversation or pop from a podcast, but talked about having a trigger for putting, for

breaking the chain between those two environments. And I think, actually, I see a lot of people who are sort of, we're blurring those two environments, myself included, of okay, I'm just going to leave my office, but I'm going to take my office, but I'm going to take my laptop me so I can just finish an email while the kids are eating their dinner. And I'm like, talk about kind of reconnecting with the family and having that, that

sort of isolation. I mean, I used to have an hour and a half on the train to find that time, and now I have 30 seconds between leaving the door and landing in the kitchen, and I think that's really, really important to so for me, it's for myself. But also, as I see in others, it's having the ability to go, Okay, well, that's sort of, let's shut the lid. What's that thing that trigger that's going to stop it, that's going to disconnect me from from work, me into family, me so I can

properly be present. So I slightly stolen your points, but I think that that thing's particularly important. Yeah, I don't know if you've got any thoughts.

shop on the way. That's why most people will say, let's meet a coffee shop. Not just because of coffee, but it's that kind of break in between, and that's what a lot of people have lost with working from home, is that divide, particularly when you don't have the luxury of a home office. And you know, I've worked with salespeople that might have particularly during covid, who were sort of in a house share, for example, and all sharing a living room and not having that luxury in your

brain, then finds it very difficult to go hang on. We were working in here today, and now I'm meant to be chilling out, but I'm starting to have these core memories of, well, you know, I'm here for this reason, so how can I switch off from that? So something that I encourage people do is what I call it the brain dump exercise. So the biggest challenge I find is that people are so busy in their day they don't have time

to reflect on it. And often it's not until we go to bed that we sort of unwind due to technology, and that's when all those thoughts come through, and that can often be the reason why people struggle to sleep. It's a bit like being in a CGI film. You do all this green screen stuff, and you're like, hang on. Like, hang on, I don't really make sense of it until I watch it back at the end. So the idea behind the brain dump is it's

four quadrants. You do this at your end of your day, like just before you're finishing wrapping up, and you can spend five minutes on it, 1015, and there's four quadrants, there's pending, there's um, wins, challenges, solutions. So pending is you brain dump everything that you think your brain is going to think about for the next day. Or if it's a Friday next week, even if you've got it in your calendar, go, what is it something is going to pop up? I've got, I've got to send this

email. I've got to speak to this person. I've got to book a plumber like it doesn't just have to be work related. Get it all down. Wins is, what have I done well today or even this week, if you're doing at the end of the week, and not just what has happened? Because if you say that, you'll often focus on the things you haven't controlled what have. And then the challenges is, rather than just going, Oh, it's been a really stressful day or wasn't productive, what made it that

like? What was the tangible thing? I got caught up in emails. I got caught into meetings. I said yes to something that actually took two hours longer than I thought it would be. And then solutions, what can I do tomorrow or next week that's going to mitigate that actually check how urgent something is, or close my emails down when I'm making calls. So the idea is, you're left with this brain dump at the end of

the day. The pending psychologically means, and subconsciously, your brain thinks, Oh, we're not going to forget it, because it's written down. And anyone listening to this with kids will realize like, when you write something down, when you put it on the fridge, when give kids

timetables, their anxiety reduces. And we're no different as adults like you write it down, it says, Hey, we're not going to forget about this, because your brain is then like, well, I need to think about it, and I need to keep it top of mind. And then when you do that, your primal brain switches on and goes. Need to solve it right now. So the pending solves that. The wins allows for that self reflection. It's not always obvious. It gives you that immediate sort of gratification

in a different way. Challenges doesn't just keep you stuck at that level of who was stressful as unproductive it was. Here's what the reasons were, and then solutions are right? I can go into my evening knowing I'm going to do something about this tomorrow or next week.

lid, wrote the list. And I remember then I was able to unpack and spend some time my wife and actually enjoyed the weekend and just chisel away at that list on Monday. But I love the quadrants, I think because I, like most of us, like write a to do list, and they always seem to, like, cross off the top thing, because you're like, yes, I've done one. It's that kind of thing. You just note down the wins and the pending actions. Thank you.

about this? Well, let's have a look. Okay, we've got it. It's okay.

list type person. It's quite an organized to do list. But I think just having that, the the the variety of different things that that picks on all of those points, not just activities led, but thinking about how you're feeling and celebrating those successes, which is something around our dinner table every well, I say every evening, kids aren't always at home for dinner, but that question of, you know, what was good in our day? Like so we asked one another what was good in our

day? And it challenges us all to sort of think about something that was that could have puts a smile on your face, as opposed to sitting down at the table going well, that was a rubbish way to do this, or that was a terrible day, or I had this, or I had that, and it's just yeah. So I love that.

to create toxic positivity. Where you're you're saying, oh, everything's fine. I'm going to ignore the challenges. They're there already, but these are the things that you don't or aren't always aware of, and it's providing more of a balance, like neutral thinking, rather than trying to create this toxic positivity thinking.

what? What do you think of the two to three things related to a sales person's mindset that could potentially threaten their performance and well being?

so anxious? Why am I feeling nervous about this presentation, like frustrated by it, and, you know, beating yourself hump over it, which, of course, kind of couples of self talk, but can lead you down that path of sticking there, ruining your day, ruining your week, and to the point of the brain dump. Not doing that means you're then just going to focus going to

focus on all the negative things. And Deloitte released a study a few years ago where they said, we've labeled pretty about 25 core emotions, but we've got 15,000 combinations we can feel. So the problem there is you can often be mislabeling emotions as well. And it's very easy to go down the assumption that, oh, this is anxiety, this is stress. And then you then your habitual brain will go well every time we feel like this. This must be us

being anxious. Then this must be stress. And the other problem with this is how you perceive emotion. So if you perceive stress as a negative emotion, you'll get more stressed about being stressed. If you perceive it as a positive emotion, you might try and put yourself into more stressful situations. But. As you think, I thrive off stress. I need deadlines, but that can lead to burnout quicker. Yeah? An example I use here, either of you like roller coasters?

bad emotion. There is only a good or bad perception or reaction or response to an emotion. All emotions are signals, you know, like the smoke alarm going off in the house, not saying the house is on fire, yet it's what we do as a result that can then turn it into an almost self fulfilling prophecy. You know when you feel a question I asked someone want to run the other week was, which is one emotion you wish you could never feel again. They said anxiety. And I said, how

would that negatively impact you? Imagine never anxious about any presentations. Imagine you were never anxious about what you would say to someone. Imagine you were never anxious about how you planned your day. What could be the impact there? And I'm like, well, I might say something I regret, or maybe I wouldn't plan for a presentation. And that's the thing here. Like, you know, when we have perceptions of emotions like that, we don't we lose sight of the benefits of them.

I'll fly in. I've done it for for four and a half years, or whatever it was, turned up the worst delivery I've ever done in my life. And from that moment, I've always said to myself, I've got to allow this, whatever it is, because I'm finding it hard now to label it, because there's about 15,000 odd options there, but I've got allowed to just deal with it, because I know when I do enable that thing, and I stand up. That's my best delivery. You know, I have to tackle that, although I don't

want it there. So that was a good lesson learned. I didn't want it. I didn't allow it to arise. It wasn't very good delivery. Now, I just allow it, and I have to deal with it.

in the world, but often we don't. We think, Okay, well, I'm just gonna get some water. We see as a very clear response. So the same with hunger as well. But imagine you think you'd never tell yourself, Oh, I hope I never get hungry again, or never get thirsty again, or never get cold again, or never

get sad again. Is you? He's not saying you want these feelings, but you know they're part of being human, and you also know there's a quick solution or something that you can go about doing it, and that's often when we look at other feelings, like anxiety. Why people can struggle so much, because people aren't educated on how to deal with it effectively. So that's why it

can be such a Oh, god. What do I do with this feeling? And I still get anxious about things, but now that I change the response to, what are you trying to tell me, versus Why is this happening to me? Like, what's the signal here? What is it I'm feeling anxious about? And once you change those to constructive questions and your self talk, which we can come into, sort of marries in nicely to this of going, how am I speaking to myself in a way I'd want someone else speak to me? Or would I

would speak to someone else? If someone else was saying, Why are you so anxious about this? Would that make me feel more or less anxious? Probably more so what's a more constructive thing? What's an empathetic thing if I was sitting down with someone? And one thing I always encourage people to do with their self talk, or whether it's imposter syndrome or about people around no attachment styles, is give it a name. Give it a human name. So treat it like it was a person. I was working with someone

recently, and they labeled theirs James. So they went to uni with a guy called James, and James was a guy that was incredibly anxious. Every time they suggested something, James would would share something, go, what if this goes wrong? What if this happens? And all they did over the years was just sit down with James and listen and then sort of reassure him. They didn't Judge James because they thought, Well, James is only going to feel more anxious. However we judge them, he's just

going to bowl it up and it will come out in other ways. And that's the one of the most effective things you can do, is think about, how can I observe my thoughts rather than judge them as much? And when I observe them, I can then listen to them and going, what are you trying to tell me? And now I'm going, Ah, I'm anxious that maybe if we take a presentation, for example, public speaking, which most people can relate to, I'm anxious they'll ask a question I don't know the answer to. I'm

anxious if it's a pitch that. Throw out a objection I can't handle. I'm anxious that there'll be people in the room I haven't met yet. Okay, what's one or two things within my control I can do to reduce the chances that are happening. I can preempt that objection. I can plan for that question, or ask someone else. I can research those people, or ask my contact, like, how would How do these people best receive information?

And then I go into that, and then I'm like, actually, do you know what if I didn't do that, if I didn't feel like that, I probably wouldn't have preempted that objection, I wouldn't have answered that question. So I leave it going. I'm actually grateful for that feeling, and not in a toxic positivity way again, but in a way of next time it shows up and then, like, Ah, here you go. Here's your signal. What is it trying to tell me?

to turn it into kind of productive self talk, well, actually, I think there's a bit in between that you just shared there, which is, we got to listen to it first, yeah, so that we can unpick it, so that we can translate it, rather than just saying, I'm going to take that word and directly translate it to this word, and then try and convince myself that that's

the thing. So I think that's really important, like, so if I, I guess, if I think about the audience and the people listening to this podcast, if you're out there, and you're an individual contributor, and you're, you know, in your first 18 months in the sales role, and you're thinking, I've got my first like, big pitch, what am I going to do, having that, listening to that, those those thoughts, listening to your own thoughts and your own Perhaps destructive self talk before you

kind of jump into turning it around, makes it maybe more likely that you'll believe it.

be your sign. So for example, I started to realize I started tapping my leg or, like, clenching my fist if I was starting to feel anxious, so I knew that was a sign of, ah, I'm going to start feeling or thinking a certain way, just bringing that awareness in the same way you might be like, Oh, I'm going outside. I might start feeling cold. So I don't need to panic, because if I do, I know I need to put a jumper on, rather than a helm. Why am I feeling like this? Well, obviously, I'm

outside with just a t shirt on, so it's going to be cold. So it's noticing it. It's then noticing it from an observer point of view. Ah, rather than why is Why am I feeling anxious again? Is, for example, why you call my self talk Christian? So I'll be like, Oh, Christian's having this thought again, or Christians thinking about this again in a very neutral way, not in a positive way, because, again, I've got a bit of a problem with positive thinking, because it's almost just trying

to convince yourself to think a different way. And your brain then goes, let's be honest, not everything does end up positively. It then goes, See, told you, so we should have thought negatively. It's like when someone says, just be confident. Oh, okay, yeah, or don't worry. Or calm down anyone listening says, Have you ever said calm down someone? Has it ever had a benefit? No, it has. It has the opposite effect, and we all regret saying it. Even when you say in the best

intentions, it doesn't help the situation. So notice it. Name it. So name those thoughts. And whenever you're doing this exercise, which I would encourage people to do proactively, because any tool you practice proactively, the more likely you're going to use it reactively, and the less likely you'll need it reactively. But practicing writing it down on paper, because going back to that list, example, when we write we have to use the rational part of our

brain. We disrupt that amygdala, that amygdala hijack, which is often where those irrational thoughts and feelings sit, and because it forces us to be present, we can all probably touch type here. If you try and write without looking, it doesn't end well. So you're having to force yourself to focus. So you're writing those thoughts. Christian is thinking this, this is going to go wrong. What if this happens? What if this happens? This is where you get into those negative what ifs

then the neutralize it part. You can go two ways here. So if you're thinking about a future situation, a presentation, a meeting, a call, anything, you know, even outside of work, it could be meeting the in laws for the first time, for example, is going two questions, whatever those thoughts are, what's the biggest what are the biggest two or three reasons? I'm thinking that might happen. So Robin's going, I'm anxious this is going

to go wrong. What are the two or three biggest reasons? Are you reasons I use that example there of presenting question, Objection, and then what are one or two things are in my control I can do to reduce the chance it's not stop them, because I'm

going to be realistic here, but I can reduce them. Okay, here's one or two actions, and what I've done there, I've given myself some tangible things to focus on, and often that's all we need in a situation, isn't to know that it's going to be everything's going to be fine, but to know we've got some influence within that control that will often reduce your

anxiety and stress and going back to overwhelm. Overwhelm is often a breakdown of thoughts, not always of life, and it's often where you've been thinking too much about things, when you can actually bring it back to hear something in the process. And that I can do, I feel less overwhelmed by it, and that's a byproduct of a list. So that's the neutralized part. There's another one which I can go into, which is where maybe you're overthinking a conversation you've had of a manager, or

you're thinking, Oh, that email is a bit short. They're annoyed of me. Or Hang on, that person hasn't texted me back yet. I've done something wrong. And this is where you want to imagine your brain is like a courtroom. You've got the prosecution throwing out all those accusations. They don't respect you. They think this of you. You might have people fold their arms sitting there, you know, when they're when you're presenting or afterwards, thinking they didn't ask many

questions. Maybe they didn't enjoy it. So then you want to go defense in the courtroom, Where is the evidence that that thought is true or false? What else could be true in this situation, and if I knew that thought, other thought were true, how would I think or feel differently about this?

quite as they planned. And they're thinking, oh yeah, maybe if I take that same courtroom approach, that might help we sort of reflect on it, but also in any kind of job, in just in life in general, right? This is super helpful way of handling some of these challenges.

comfort zone. Is you then perceive everything outside of it is going to be uncomfortable. Going back to labeling, our brains are very black and white, and they're thinking is, you know, if I think that I'm I'm don't feel motivated today, I can assume I'm unmotivated, or I don't feel happy. I can assume I'm sad. But, of course, there's a lot of gray in between. But when you have a perception that things are going to be

uncomfortable, either A, you'll procrastinate on doing it. B, you won't do it, or C, you go into it with a negative headspace, and can create a self fulfilling prophecy, almost being like, Well, I told you, so, you know, I told myself so that I wasn't going to be good at that, or it wasn't going to

be good. And it's then also, when you do start going outside of it, you then start going, Oh, this is a nice, comfortable thing I can go back to, so it seems a bit easier to kind of revert back to and maybe not push through and build that resilience as well. So my sort of perspective on this is it's more of a familiar zone, rather than a comfort zone, is that you don't become more comfortable with something. You become more familiar with it. Like a marathon runner doesn't become

more comfortable with hitting that wall. They become more familiar with the feeling behind it. That person going to the gym doesn't become more comfortable with lifting weights. They become more familiar with how to do it and familiar with the feelings afterwards. If you think about anything you do, you don't become more comfortable with it. You become more

familiar with it. And the idea behind that is you then start looking at everything outside of what you're familiar with is not uncomfortable, but unfamiliar, which straight away, doesn't say to your brain, this is going to be scary, this is going to be painful, this is going to be something all just unfamiliar. And I'm being unfamiliar with something can breed curiosity and go actually, I'm curious to become more familiar with this, and the more familiar I become something, ironically, I didn't

become more comfortable with it. Yeah. But looking at it that way, just that labeling in your brain allows you to kind of go in with more curiosity, rather than sort of thinking, Oh God, this is going to be tense. I'm going to struggle here.

You know, if we said, let's all go for a 5k or you'll be fine, Chris, because you're you're running. But then if I said, Let's do half, no, the half marathon, 56k that stretch zone and then panic zone is the half marathon, right? Is the again, not for you, but you'll be absolutely fine. But yeah, that's how I've heard it. But I really like the flip on that and the lag. And it goes back to that, how words create pictures

and feelings in your head. So you know the spin on using familiar, familiar and unfamiliar, when you think about that, how that prompted curiosity, but how that changes your emotions inside you a lot, how words are so powerful, aren't they? That's what I'm hearing from you today.

someone micromanaging. You're going you need to do more of this. You should do this. You have to do this. And we hate it. We hate demands, but we put it on ourselves every day. I. Should work out more. I have to eat healthier. I need to do this. And that's what a lot of people do, particularly for New Year's resolutions, which is why it fails you tell yourself this so much, you then end up self sabotaging, because your brain goes, well, you're an adult. Or do I want? Or it's then, like,

you know, I need to that judgment when you don't. So even just changing it to I want to, or get to, like, I want to work on this. I don't need to. I want to, because choice. I get to, I get to go for a run today. I want to become more mindful of how I eat. I want to become more conscious of how much I exercise. I want to become more familiar with this feeling I get before public speaking.