¶ Coming up...
Get way beyond the g egregious sentimentality that just pervades so much of this the air of this discussion. That just feels rough. Are you gonna exclude them? I'm not sure that that's nice. By walking away from the script.
🎵 Music
I would sit here and look at it.
I always sit here listening. That's what we're doing.
That's what's happening. Right here on TV.
I think we are talking.
Start.
Big tent today. Big tent. And I feel like if you're gonna be big tent, you gotta allow a lot of out of tunage uh at some level. It's true.
Who says I was out of tune?
No, I'm not saying I'm saying it was a good thing.
We've got audio devices that can put the
Yeah.
There's doctrinal standards. Let's be honest.
We'll see.
So welcome to the Green Podcast.
Glad to be here, Joe.
Got our singer.
Thankful for that uh serenade. Doug Logan.
Yeah.
That was amazing.
Lockwin.
Thankful as always.
Yeah.
Also thankful as always.
Always thankful.
Always I'm not gonna dance. I might sing though.
You can sing.
I'm doing neither.
You can say that.
I don't think we need to need to like just chase it all the way down, but you know, we'll we'll see where it goes.
Another day.
Another day.
Song and dance episode.
That'd be terrible.
Now that would be
That would be terrible.
I know.
I wanna like'em.
Very musical.
I keep telling you sound of music is based, it's it's a fantastic
It's basically.
It is bro. It's not even enough to say it's conservative. It is a phenomenal movie and and every self respecting man should watch.
Well that's what I was wondering. That's what you know, I had to get clarity on it first before I watched it. This was thank you. That's great.
How do you fix a problem like their ponder?
I like that. All right, well we have something to talk about today.
¶ What "Big Tent" Means in the PCA & SBC
We're talking about a big tent. So in in my former denomination PCA, um if you would talk about the same thing.
That's a metaphor, right? We're not talking about setting up test
If you're talking about the history of the PCA Our former denomination two two concepts are going to come up. One it was grass.
Route.
Okay.
Two it was big tent.
Big ten.
Those illustrations um uh symbolize the sentiment behind a lot of things that the denomination wants to be. And so obviously, in and of themselves, they don't give much definition, but everybody knows what it is. And so in our discussion Um beforehand, it seems like that's maybe a concept in S B C as well.
Well d yeah, I mean well I don't I don't know. Is Big Tent used? Uh I guess it is it is uh is a phrase. I feel like it i it by definition is a big tent. For sure. It's a so everybody kinda embraces it as as you're part of it.
Almost definitely. I I think based on its size alone, uh you could argue the SBC is uh a that kind of big tent thing, whether whether the people in it would recognize it as such or whether they would all want it to be. Um you find people who would like it to be a little smaller, uh and you've got others who would like it to be much bigger even than it already is. Uh and you these have been debates have been going on for a long time.
Long time. Yeah, I think it's been a tension in evangelicalism at at large. I mean, even those who are classified as non denam are still kind of uh the outflow of this kind of like broader big tent evangelical everybody's trying to Um, you know, define their associations with certain boundaries, certain lines. Yeah. But the Big Ten uh kind of idea as pervasive in a lot of ways. Sure.
¶ Big Tent on Its Best Day: Realism, Unity, Pragmatism
It it it I think it came out of a good place. So maybe we can start by saying when when some if somebody was starting an organization, a denomination, and they said we we want it to be a big ten. Um in all the greatest ways, what would be some of the things they'd be aspiring for for their organization?
Well uh this is a hard question to answer.
The kingdom's big.
Right.
I mean just just it's it's a decent start to say the kingdom is big. Sure. Like those who are part of God's church and his kingdom is probably bigger than a lot of people even want to know.
That's the realism principle. Yes. I think I think it's important. Yeah. Uh the reason I kinda chuckled when you said this was honestly, the well's been poisoned for me at this point. Most of the time I hear that phrase, I'm like, that means
You've got an injury.
thing not good and and yet I think what you're doing is right. You're you're holding our feet to the fire. You're saying Yeah but on their best day, what are what are these people attempting to achieve?
It wasn't started as a steering wheel with an agenda. It was started out of the best of intentions.
It includes those who confess Christ uh throughout the world, uh, which has all sorts of various Um instantiated expressions, denominational expressions, uh validity within broad church history and traditions. Absolutely. So it includes a lot more than a lot of folks kind of uh want. So I think that the a lot of the the
The hope behind a big temp mentality or the sentiment, if you will, or the desire is ultimately the kingdom is very big. And we as uh those who partner in the gospel can do much more together to further the kingdom. Yeah. a if we join together to the best degree possible. So so let's get as many people as possible together to further this grand work of God in the world.
So I think you just identified uh all three of the ones I was thinking of. In case anybody missed them, the three are the real
I didn't know I had three. I was like, I don't know.
I infer. Whether you implied it or not, um or intended it. Uh I the realism principle. Yes. The kingdom of Christ, the Capital C church is very big and very diverse. Whether it should be or not is another question, just acknowledging that it is, yeah. It's one place to start. Right. Secondly, you you mentioned the unity uh principle unity intention. There's a lot of verses in the scriptures that emphasize uh the importance of being united.
So many of them are in the context of the local church. But uh Jesus' high priestly prayer is certainly much bigger than that. And so John seventeen is a is a text that some would use there to say that unity is very important. Um something that matters to God and it impacts the health, well being and effectiveness of the church. And the third one is
Well don't lose uh don't lose the third one, but the unity thing I think uh it mattered is a whole bunch because a lot of peop a lot of folks grew up around too much um too much of a divided church, a divisive church, an infighting church. You see this just descriptively by folks transferring constantly across the broader denominational spread that's actually supposed to be united. So even even evangelicalism at large and we gotta get into where the boundary line should be actually drawn.
But at large, you're still saying, uh, this is historic Protestant Christianity and therefore we sh we are united in our common understanding of the scriptures, God's mission, who Christ is, and therefore we should be seeking unity to build one another up.
Not competition, uh, and not trying to put others kind of uh and and not not cheering them on in their in their gospel mission. Yeah. So I think a lot of the I mean it it's it's common knowledge, but especially the church's witness in the West. And in the US context uh as well is not is hindered in a is is hindered in a lot of ways because of the lack of of unity maybe that it should be seemingly achievable. Could be achievable. Seem seemingly. Right.
No. All right. So realism principle, right? The unity goal. Uh and then the third would be a kind of um uh
Pragmatic.
efficacy, which is um the idea that we can accomplish more together than we could apart, divided, or whatever. Right. And I'm not saying all these things are uh equally valid, true Whatever. I'm just saying those are sort of the three that I think of when I think on their best day, a a well intended person who's pushing for the biggest tent possible within their denomination or organization of some kind, why are they doing it? And if it's Right.
It's good. Yeah.
It also brings up the aspect of theological triage and then wanting to be big tent, at least I guess the original design was not to cross over what would be appropriate doctrinal bounds. Right. Um but that's that's not where we are today or how it's used right today.
Done a whole episode on that.
Well I I think yeah. I mean to that.
And Chris Bolt, he's a pastor just across town, actually, wrote a fantastic long form article for uh I think it was American Reformer about um the implicit contradictions and dangers of theological triage. And it was excellent. It's the kind of thing we've been talking about for years and I was very thankful somebody else wrote it so I didn't have to.
But I agree with what he says. I think he's right. That label gets bandied about without people really thinking very clearly about some of the issues that are there that they may not be aware of.
Uh go ahead, Brett.
Yeah, I was I was at General Assembly. I think we were in Orlando.
That austere moment.
Yeah.
Yeah, nice. And um that's
Auspicious occasion.
Auspicious occasion, fathers and brothers.
I think Dr. Tripp introduced me to Tim Keller that day. I was happy to meet him. I mean I was a f I'm a I was a
fans. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw him yesterday. Yep. No, my my son was playing um Goldeneye on the Switch, throwback, double O seven, Goldeneye. You remember that game? And he was playing this board uh where you go into the factory and the first guy you have to shoot is sitting on a a commode, as my grandma would call it. When you open the door, dude, the man who steps out is Paul Tripp in a Russian soldier's unit. I almost fell out the chair.
Doctor Tripp, I I didn't say that.
I don't want to piggyback too f too like go go too far afield, but yeah, I I believe you criticized me about playing video games recently and then here we are goldeneye. But what were you saying? Who were we saying then?
¶ Keller's "Broad Brush, Not a Roller"
Uh uh for the record, that's all.
I can't like out. I can't like out.
I was serving at Tenth then and and we were at General Assembly. I met Tim Keller. I was beyond excited if I had a I would have got his autograph. But we he sat down, he talked with me and I never forget he talked about the Big Tent concept. Yep. And during a conversation he says, The Big Ten was designed and I'm I'm barely quoting them.
Yeah, paraphrasing.
Yeah, very sure.
He says, it was designed for us to paint with a broad brush. Not a roller.
Yeah.
Right, right, right. Yeah, that's right.
He says, he says when you paint with the roller, we're going too wide and too far. The broad brush.
Yeah.
As opposed to the little stencil, he was like a broad brush. That would be the evangelical pot right there, not the roller where we just grab any and everything.
Yeah, I I think to piggyback off the three that you mentioned is good because I think the the the seeds of difficulty are baked into those three, not not um well thought through. So So take the metaphor of we you know it's broad brush but not not a roller. Right. Well that's that's great. Uh
As a as an illustration. How broad. However, yeah, I can go pretty broad with my brush or I can roll pretty tight with a small roller or you know, so uh take take the uh the the realism principle. The realism principle says yes, the kingdom is very big. But also the the the Lord is the one who knows ultimately um who are his in his kingdom truthfully.
So uh we when we speculate too much about who hypothetically may be in, um, it gets the conversation going in the wrong direction because it misses where uh maybe the the right lines for discernment for us as those who were supposed to be united in the kingdom, what actually our unity is based on. So if we try to play too much mind of God.
then we tend to let go of a lot of things that are verifiable in terms of the standards for what it looks like for us to be exactly a part of his visible kingdom, since he's the one who actually knows invisibly those who are his. So so so too much speculation leads possibly to l to to say, well, may maybe they're in.
Maybe maybe this uh obscure group over here is in, or maybe maybe that's not a big deal and you know, at least they're well intended and they're trying instead of actually um pushing the discussion to where should our unity be found in a in a in a true sense. Uh Christ does desire for us to be united based on what standard and around what teachings. Correct. And again, which which things uh what what defines the boundaries? Who's jumping the fence?
Who's ran outside the tent and in the field? And and how do we actually uh is is the is are the boundaries there just so everybody can try to push up against the fence as much as possible? Or are they actually there so everybody can work towards Playing in the yard together well and also dwelling in the house together. So that there's an orientation to the boundaries that we actually draw. Right. Without that, without or without talking about those, then we tend to get improv.
What what what happens, right, is a big tent approach uh can achieve stability on a very short term basis. And when I say short term, I mean years and maybe a decade and some change. But with the current rate of cultural turnover and upheaval. You're seeing that that stability is uh that period of stability is shorter and shorter.
That's right. A lot of that was we mentioned before to your point is the a lot of the the the information and uh questions and discussions and emphases that come at such a higher rate because of the information age they were in, the digital age, the technological age. the winds are blowing much harder. So unless unless those unitive roots are much deeper right then we're j we're just going to get blown over in a like shorter time frame. So even if you go back in our lifetime
um last quarter century of ministry, you're still talking about a lot of things are facilitated through an online platform and a conference once a year. Now the rate of question asking, um, discovery of who's compromising People jumping the fence, all of that is almost real time. Sure. Which therefore makes it tough to your point of it staying together for for many times.
No, I was just gonna say and and you don't have to look far for examples uh that demonstrate this. There are statistics that show that various denominations that have taken a a big tint approach, uh always demonstrate lower levels of commitment from uh their members.
uh uh lower levels of retention for those who grow up within that church. Because if everything is treated with a a broad, open handed, we're not going to fight about X, Y, or Z, all of a sudden you've got uh people who begin to believe X, Y, and Z. And they realize we're actually not in alignment. It's right. And we think this is very important. It's good. And so that kind of thing. And uh and any any of the ways you would measure vitality in a church life, things like participation, giving.
Baptism. conversions, all this stuff, uh, they're lower on all of that. So there's a kind of short term stability for a season, but it's ephemeral. It's it's not real because uh inevitably you have drift. that occurs, you have um internal conflict will actually persist.
Despite their intentions. Right. Because what won't happen is people say things like here's this the phraseology that you hear. Well, we're not we're we're we're agreed about the essentials and we are not gonna fight about the non-essential.
Yeah.
immediate question everybody knows is who gets to define what's essential.
Well just take take this even in our in our in our our culture of fragmentation and atomism, individuals and that sort of thing. If the big tent is not a tent city of local churches, Then you're also uh you have all the seeds for fragmentation at large because then the essentials are not what is essential for a local church to hold for everyone to work towards maturation. And then also how do we partner across the kingdom?
with uh w with the standards uh that we should hold together across local churches. And therefore I give uh a a a di there there are different lines of partnership amongst churches. and within one particular church. When those are confused, then you have drift and therefore uh doctrines that help us mature in a lot of ways or help us sanctify us.
tend to also get watered down or saying, Well, these are not essentials because that wouldn't fit the big tent. Where well these are actually are are our local church issues that need to be uh held on to firmly so that folks might mature. And so when those categories get confused, you also have drift because what it looks like to partners across the kingdom has a little bit different uh lines we may draw than what it looks like for us to grow well in a local church.
The way that J C Rao describes it in his book Holiness is that different denominations are like scaffolding around a building. No, it is is good that Presbyterians are on one scaffolding and Baptists are on another and local church expressions of what a church likes in a time and place are on on different sections. But when one day
this all the scaffolding is going to be torn down and the church underneath is going to be beautiful. But for now you can the the different scaffolding around the church are being used to build up the church. The scaffolding is not the church. Yeah.
And some scaffoldings may be better than others. They might be put together a little a little more thoughtfully constructed a little more solid.
J C right on into the Presbyterian Baptists and left his Anglicans.
Yeah. He would be pretty sad about that scaffolding today.
It was a different day, a different Anglican church.
JC Rao revive.
in the Anglican communion.
So th this there's a this is a live conversation in the SPC right now. Okay. Um uh the the SPC's annual meeting's coming up soon, and there's a uh another Another attempt Simply affirm
¶ The SBC, Mohler's Amendment & "Truth and Unity"
And require confessional fidelity to what the Baptist faith and message and the scriptures teach about the office of elder slash overseer slash pastor.
And
So Mueller has titled it What the truth in Unity Yeah. And so y he he's actually trying to hold both of these things together that we've been talking about, the fundamental tension between Big Tent and other visions, which we'll talk about in a moment. But he's trying to hold them together.
And you actually are finding that those who are pushing back on it are pushing back on it for all the reasons that we've just discussed. They're saying things like, Well, if we do that, then we're being mean to churches who take a different view of this. Uh if we do this, we will decrease the number of of partnering SBC churches, which means we'll decrease our ability to give to missions and'cause you can hear all the arguments that come in. Sure. They're they're largely pragmatic.
And they're often driven by we can agree to disagree about this. And I'm like, says who? Like if the scriptures say we can agree to disagree, then yes. Well go look at the places where Paul talks that way. He's talking about whether you eat meat or not. Yeah. Whether the meat that was sold by pagans is able to be eaten.
Eaten or not. Right. He's not saying, hey guys, when it comes to the office of pastor, you can agree to disagree about who's qualified to fill that role. That's one of the most important roles in the church.
church. Well well much less I mean th this is where this one's kind of kind of simple in a lot of ways to be honest because the confessional statement of faith take in the Southern Baptist Convention has has already been settled. So so the the boundary lines, if you will, that help us all um
uh def delineates what it means for us to be united around the truth of our confessions already there. It's those who are jumping the fence that are actually the ones who are being divisive. This is what you said uh the end of Romans chapter sixteen. The ones who are divisive are the ones who are walking away from the doctrine.
It's already actually confessed. Avoid'em. So so yeah, we have to define what the unity is, but uh amazingly simply this one's actually already defined in a lot of ways. And th this is back to your third point of the pra pragmatism. So the we can we can work better together in a generic pragmat pragmatism in that sense, uh in terms of um ministry method f flexibility, freedom, philosophy of ministry, those sorts of things. But that's not to the detriment of of
doctrinal fluidity. Correct. It must be doctrinal and faithfulness. So pragmatism as a test for truth. ends in a really bad consequentialist type ethic where we say the end justifies the mean. Look at the results we're getting. Therefore we we we we this is what we should be united around. When when we started adopting women pastors in our churches, then
folks got a lot nicer and they gave more and they they uh even some more folks came out. So therefore it must be right. And I'm saying, no, that's not the test for truth. Um, and it's and it's being distorted in terms of us uniting together with um good missiological flexibility in ministry practices. is different from saying no because we're pragmatic, then we change doctrines based on the end results of whatever we're doing.
Right. Absolutely. And we're seeing the same thing in the PCA and probably come up at General Assembly and
¶ Women, Female Ordination & Historic Protestantism
three weeks if this comes out before before that. But um we're we don't have churches giving the title of um of elder or deacon to women because that would be against our our Book of Church order and our confessional standards. But we have women functioning Um in in functional um officer roles. So functioning like deacons, functioning like elders.
in some churches being trained along with elders, being commissioned along time o of elders being ordained. And so we're looking more at that practice and saying that practice is outside the bounds of um what we believe is scriptural polity um within our churches. And so current argument, different groups going in different directions, all of them advocating for big tent, but in in different ways.
Yeah, I think it's a wonderful point, Joe, because in the Dr. Muller's amendment that he's recommending, it properly helps us uh um set the issue to rest because you do have a lot of uh functional equivocation. Right. So he even delineates in the amendment uh that uh it also any th any uh anyone who's not functioning according to the office requirements is also out of bounds of the confessional standards. Right. And therefore of course that
Uh, that makes sense. So but but to to the point of unity, when we're talking about uh big tent historic Protestantism. When it when it comes to female ordination, uh that that has been excluded from from all of history. Right. So so if you're actually uh grounding what is what is the the big historic Christian Protestant tent look like
did never look like that. That was always excluded and always very clear. Right. So therefore that boundary line, boundary marker, that confessional standard has been established for centuries and centuries. Uh because it's very clear in the scriptures. So
Um big tent doesn't mean that we get to syncretize with the cultural moment and its sensibilities and say, Well therefore, you know, well this is just what it is nowadays and it's working so we can let all that let all let all the unity around doctrine go.
¶ The Slippery Slope Is Real
Yeah. But it does happen. I mean, uh the last thing we'll say uh on this one, the last thing I'll say is uh the slippery slope is is real. Uh I know it can be a fallacy when there's not actually a slope that is slippery. Right. But this one is. Every denomination today that affirms uh the legitimacy in their mind of gay marriage, of of openly uh gay practicing homosexual, married, quote unquote, uh gay clergy
transgenderism, all of that, they all started with female ordination. That's right. And so those who raise the alarm about this are are right to point out this is where that eventually goes. In some cases it may take a few decades, in some much less. Uh but that's where it inevitably goes because once you start saying, Well, I have a different view uh on that.
Can I still be part of the club? Right. And people say, Well, yeah. Then it's all of a sudden, um well, I also have a different view about this. Um because the same hermeneutic that it that enables me to get around what the scriptures teach about the office of elder, pastor, overseer, enable me to get around what it says about marriage. And all of a sudden you're saying, Well, we
We don't want to be mean spirited. We don't want to kick them out. They want to be part of what we're doing. So so we we we should let them be part, even though we we acknowledge their view as a minority view. It doesn't stay a minority view long. Because faithful churches who don't want to partner with that uh leave and then all of a sudden the minority is the majority and next thing you know, here it is. You know, Bishop Gene Robinson is leading the charge and here we go.
I mean, yeah, I was listening to a wonderful podcast recently, um just celebrating uh the life and ministry of um uh Wayne Grudom. And of course he's still with us. Uh so this must be celebrated actively. Um, but he uh a lot a lot of uh one of the things he mentioned in the podcast was uh compromise, uh apostasy, liberalism is ultimately at its base those who want to deny that God has revealed himself in and through his word.
So the sufficiency of scripture is the inerrancy of God's word, the revelation uh that we have in the scriptures as the basis for for determining or setting what these doctrine uh doctrinal doctrinal standards should be is also also always at uh at the root of this battle. All of these things you mentioned are ultimately um they're they're uh downstream or or or corollary issues, if you will, of saying, uh, I'm not sure that God's really said that.
Um, the Bible's one conversation partner with culture and with my experience and with what we see going on in our church. that becomes the uh wrong basis for where uh unity is sought instead of actually on what God has revealed and the right discerned standards for that and therefore that's where our unity is based.
that we actually work together in, that's as big as the tent can get. Sure. Any bigger tent than that is is is uh leads us to false worship, apostasy, liberalism, and ultimately Lampstand removal.
The Bible are the bound. The Bible is the bound. You go outside the Bible, that's not unity. That's separation from God's holy and perfect.
The problem is, as you know, the spirit of the devil is is real and and he has from the beginning been saying, But did God really say and that's that's that's what happens, right?
Back on you.
Yeah but I read it.
Oh, that's right. He loves to pick this up and just twist it all over the place. So yeah, yeah, I'm with the Bob, but I'm not sure.
What what is happening is basically this. Uh, in an anti authoritarian age like ours, all right, anti authoritarian age.
Well since chapter three in this book.
Yes, but especially today.
I know, I know.
Extremely uncomfortable with external authority, sure with hierarchical structures of any kind. Right. Whether that's judges, police officers.
Cap pastors.
Confessions, doesn't matter. We we are total we live in a time that despises these things. And that's part of the problem here. It's like the one of the subterranean issues is that People have been primed for decades, for the last several decades, to be disposed to not like. uh any kind of external authority that can be imposed on them. So as a result, when someone says, hey man, I can't stop you. I can't I cannot stop you from believing this or this or this. I can't.
But I can tell you that you won't remain a PCA church or an S B C church or whatever kind of church as long as you believe it because we don't agree. And that's actually not mean. That is uh uh honoring to the Lord. And when you have people who think, No, I think I should be allowed to say, I'm part of the SBC, I just disagree about What the rest of the denomination agrees on the problem is a you problem. That's right.
Yeah, th this is the proper outworking of of judgment b beginning with the house of God. God disciplines his people through helping us clearly um be held to what he said is good and true. So uh we need to get way beyond the gr egregious sentimentality that just pervades so much of this, the air of this discussion. That just feels rough. Are you going to exclude them? I'm not sure that that's nice. They have excluded themselves by walking away from the scriptures.
All um all the church is doing is helping them see what they've already done so that they might repent and be restored back to fidelity. So so we have to grab presumption back in terms of uh how do we uh think about this discussion, what do we unite around and what does it really look like for us to partner together in the gospel to further the mission. Right.
No, it's you. Finish up.
No, no, I just I was I was at a library here in Richmond. Um ultra liberal. And um one of the students said to me, isn't it awesome that there's a church that has an atheist? Um pastor.
That's a PC USA seminary library that you're talking about. I know it because I go there too because all the conservative books I want to check out are gathering dust somewhere and they're never, never checked out. It's a great place for me to get what I'm doing.
You need a vacuum for single.
Great research library for those who are faithful.
Продолжение следует.
One of the best.
Um o okay, um but why not just quit? Like, if you're don't believe in God no more, just don't do church. So it is with this. If you don't believe In the doctrinal positions that are clearly stated for entrance into the denomination, don't stay here and fight for your non-biblical position. Just go on and go.
Right. That's right. Yeah. So I'm trying to make the denomination change to suit you and you recognize I don't agree with these guys anymore. I'm gonna go somewhere else. And guess what? If you're right, the Lord will vindicate you. And if you're wrong, he'll also deal with that. Sure.
¶ Enter the Bitter Tent
Well I I think it does relate to kind of the reactionary side of the big tent. People get frustrated. We see these things. Right. And you kinda get the the little tents going on. Um The the the the bitter tent yeah going on. But here here's here's one thing as you guys are talking that I was thinking is The too many too much of the evangelical landscape um just d doesn't actually believe that we're in a real spiritual battle. We think it's just a a a doctrinal, logic, rational discussion.
Haven't you seen that it says there's only one God? Haven't you seen that all idolatry is false worship? Haven't you seen that those who do not believe on the Lord Jesus will be cast out for all eternity? Haven't you seen that those who mock God will be judged? Hav haven't you seen? They have seen and they don't care because they're demonically influenced. Right. We we just we just don't like to to actually realize that's the nature of the battle we're in.
And so we s w instead we just trying to meet'em on naturalistic, rational terms and say, Let's talk about this. Why don't you step out of school and do the right thing? Because you're spiritually blind and not doing the right thing at all in any way, shape or form. And this is where the authority of God's word and those who actually are called to lead and be genuine Christians, much less pastors
must step forward and steward the responsibility to hold the line and hold people accountable so that we can actually be united around the gospel. There's too much uh rationalistic let let's just discuss further I don't know. And I'll say, I know you don't know, but guess what we all do know and therefore I love you, but you're not a part of this. Yeah. So you can repent and maybe you can be a part of this later. Self worship. It it just is what it is.
worship they they think some people with their fuzzy um beyond hopeful. It's not hopeful, it's idealistic at best. that they can move better than God to move a person's heart because It's as if they're saying, you know, God's mean old unsaveness. I've got a better thing over here. It's called compromise to make friends. No. Blind, dead in trespasses and sins. It takes God to do it. But often they think it takes their strategic technique.
That's better than God to get around the reality of lost, demonically influenced, wicked positions that cannot be tolerated. And listen, we're not putting them out. We are standing on the principles of the word of God, the confessions and all the rest of that that we already have h held to.
Yeah, to I mean to the point, in in the denomination we are saying should be put out. Mm-hmm. You're not in good fellowship if you're not around the standards. So what cannot be the boundary lines or the basis for our unity towards a common mission in the truth is nominalism. Correct.
¶ Nominalism & the Restaurant Bet
Right.
Which means the basis is, well, you said you're a Christian, so therefore, who am I to say? Well
I ever told you guys about when I I worked at a a restaurant uh for six years. Uh three of them I was putting myself through seminary and you and I were going to school together. And the other three were the first three years of our church plant uh when you and I were both bi vocational. Sure. And
Uh my coworkers knew I was a Christian. They knew I was in seminary and then later they knew I was a pastor. And one day I came in a little late. I was coming back from class, uh driving up from North Carolina, back to Virginia, and I stumble in and my two of my coworkers were like
Doug's here, he'll settle it for us. And I was like, Settle what? And he was like We're having a theological debate. And this is amazing'cause these guys aren't Christians. They're both heavy pot smokers. They'd had some that day, in fact, and this was influencing their thought processes.
This is even pre legalisation of Virginia. Yes, sir. Amazing.
And you didn't call the police.
No, um no, I had bigger fish to fry. Anyway, yeah. We didn't fry our tuna. We grilled it on real charcoal. It was it was nice.
Don't lose a thread.
Is Oprah a Christian? And I was like, It's a great question. But first tell me Why are you asking this? And and one of the guys was like Well, I say she is'cause she says she is. There we go. And my other friend, who don't even know what it what what it even means to be a Christian, was like, sh I don't know even what a Christian is, but I know she's not one. It was the whole combo was amazing. So I was just like, uh
How can I how can I how can I deal with both of these problems at the same time? So I said, hey guys, uh who gets to define what a Christian is? And they both thought that was an affirmation. They were like, that's what I'm saying.
That's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah.
And I was like, I mean maybe Jesus gets to define it, right? Does would you guys agree that Jesus gets to define what it means to be a Christian? They're like, Yeah. I was like, Well here's what he says. And so I say it, I lay it out, and then they they both look at me and they're like, So is she a Christian or not? Right. I was like, Well, I thought I just made it clear, but in case I didn't, according to Jesus, no she isn't. And the guy was like, You owe me twenty bucks
That's all they cared about was the bet.
The nominalism thing, isn't it? It's just that again, it's like, well, wait a minute, who gets to define what it means to be PCA? Right. Doesn't the PCA get to define that? Doesn't the SPC get to define that? And and and again we're not saying you're out of the kingdom if you disagree with being Southern Baptist. If the PCA said that and they're like they're saying I'm not a Christian because I'm not PCA, well I
That's a problem for them and for me. For for me if they're right and for them if they're wrong. But
Trying to do it.
This would be wrong if they said that. Now look to go back to something you brought up earlier. There is a reactionary strain that creates a tiny tint.
That says
And it becomes what you said a a bitter. Bitter one.
Right.
Uh do you remember the Keystone Light commercials, Bitter Beer Face?
Oh yeah.
Yeah, please don't read that.
Bye-bye.
It's awesome.
What's funny is Loki Sunlight probably tasted just as bad as all the beers they were riffing. I never tried it, I don't know, but my guess is based on its price point and where it was located on the shelf, it probably was no better than all the ones they were riffing.
I've had it. Um not memorable.
So anyway this
I'm a Christian.
Tiny Baptist right now, so you can't
So maybe.
Christian drink.
The tiny the tiny ten is is really not an attempt to be tiny. Sure. Again if we wanna if we wanna state it on its own terms, as we did with the Big Ten guys. reflect their position in a way they would recognize. These are guys who are pushing for doctrinal clarity. Yes. Uh and fidelity. That's correct. And they are pushing for moral purity.
And they are recognizing that we're not actually united if we aren't united on what we think is true. Uh, and um they they are at a pragmatic level also believe that all those things I just mentioned. are going to create uh deeper discipleship, healthier churches, and then that in turn will increase the effectiveness of whatever partnership is there. Yeah. Is that fair to say? Yeah. Okay.
Right. Well I d I it it that's exactly right. I think all of that's true. And I I would agree. Like we that in terms of our unity and and the truth uh of what unites us, we should be seeking uh doctrinal fidelity, moral purity.
¶ Contend for Truth Without Being Bitter
and doctrinal precision and maximalizing um our um embrace of all that God's word says. At the same time when we do that, that that shouldn't land us in being bitter. Um it should it should land in us uh being adamant, being diligent, um, being dogged. But not unkind. um not um prone to um things that are um not uh that that are overly harsh Maybe engaging in uh un Christian ways of interacting as we f uh uh we uh we must fight as Christians.
So so therefore I may fundamentally disagree and I I will argue to the death, if you will, uh, that you're wrong about uh these things and therefore you should be a part of these things. But I'm gonna do it with charity, I'm gonna do it with love.
I'm gonna continue to turn the other cheek as I uphold what's true. Um and uh with kindness, knowing that Christ actually died for those. So I think because A lot of those who find themselves in this category see the Big Tent compromising at at a at a large scale and th they kind of start start pulling their hair out and start flipping out a little bit and they they I I would just say well well one is
Y you also want to be consistent with your doctrinal confession and unless God's providence is not real. Then he's also ordained this moment for us to fight well as Christians, with love for one another, even our enemies that we disagree with, even those who have crept in unnoticed, even the fierce wolves that are tearing apart the flock. Uh we need to rebuke them. Uh sometimes harshly.
Uh but with the hope that they would actually repent and and actually uh turn to what's true. So so I think the it when it turns into being a uh something that's septic, I think it g it can actually not uh produce
Some of the some of the folks listening to this may um be part of denominations that are are uh intentionally more of a big tent mindset. And and maybe they have one too. And as they're listening to this they're saying, I mean, that just seems strict, it seems divisive, it seems
Like it will be ineffective, it will decrease our uh cooperation toward missions, church planting, that kind of thing. It's helpful for those folks who whoever may be listening that falls in that category to know actually
Stats are on the side of doctrinal fidelity. Sure. They they really are. Now we shouldn't need stats. This is one of those things where we're like, well, if God is real, then being faithful to his word ought to produce fruitfulness. That's right. And it does. But the stats show that the clearer a an organization is about their doctrines.
And the more um strongly they they require people to actually hold to them. So they don't just constantly give everybody free passes. They a they actually have a higher than average commitment and giving and all of those things.
Well you mean l the the the less hypocritical they are. Yeah somehow. Amazing how that works.
Amazing, you know.
О, да снаті іші пощу. or spirit uh with which these things are contended for. So that's one potential problem. And the other is the uh tendency to continue To tighten uh uh the the noose, if you will. So so insularity is a real risk. Uh and divisiveness is a a real risk. A number of years ago, John Frame wrote an article about Machin's warrior children. It's good. Where he pointed out that Machin was exactly right to fight the fight that he fought in his day.
His concern was that some people would go f much farther uh than he did. And there's a sense in which when new battles come up, we have to fight those two. Nobody's saying we don't. No. But w what we are saying though is there's a way to do it that still recognizes uh there are sufficient levels of agreement about the biggest things, the most important things, the things that we have established and we have confessions and statements of faith and we we guard those things. And then
Beyond those.
Uh we we we don't need to constantly fight with one another. Think about a lot of the stupid fights that are happening today. Yeah.
Yeah, well to your point, I mean I think a lot of a lot of these we we would agree with the heart behind uh folks that uphold all of God's word and what it teaches. Absolutely. And then also understand that we need to confess that boldly. To your point, all battles have battlefields. So it's back to what we were mentioning earlier. Some of it's a conflation of uh right battle, wrong place.
Sure. So uh what you would fight for at your local church level for in terms of purity and th in terms of doctrinal ma maximalization, in terms of um uh principles, um c um uh tr truth claims and even uh practices and even in your philosophy of ministry in order to have a united church on a common mission in a particular place. Uh many of those things are not the exact same things.
if you will, that you would be fighting for the denominational level. So uh your particular um ways in which you um maybe uh worship in your local church. is uh something that we would have more of uh flexibility and freedom in terms of your liturgy, your order of service. So some of those things in your local uh across the denomination for a common effort to plant churches, come together for mission, various resources. We we wouldn't be having the same fight.
at that battlefield as we do at our local churches. So if you confuse those categories, you end up fighting what you are should be fighting for in your local church at a at a at a more macro level or what you fight for at a macro level. You you don't press in deeper at a local level and therefore your church never really grows up into maturity or a thickness of doctrinal confession.
I think about there's a church sign that went viral uh on on Twitter back when it was still called Twitter, where somebody's just driving through the country uh in parts of America, maybe it was Appalachia, maybe it was the South, and they saw a sign that said
I'm I'm waiting to hear what what what comes after this designation.
Yeah.
The cell.
We are an independent fundamentalist, inerrantist, Dispensational, premillennial, pre-tribulational, King James only Baptist Church. Nice. And if you know anything about the history of the independent uh fundamentalist Baptist. You reckon they don't have a denomination. Right. At most they have fellowships. And and and part of the reason for that
Yeah.
Is um the list of things required to be believed in order to be a true church and a pure church, as it kept growing longer, the tent kept getting smaller until it shrunk to the individual church level. And then it was
Um we can't partner with these folks unless they're signing off on all the things. And it isn't just Baptists, by the way. You and I joke sometimes about uh what do they call it? The split peas. I guess. Yes. In the Presbyterian world. There are Presbyterian denominations in America that have six churches in them.
That's amazing. Six. Right.
Gosh.
And it's what's wild is if you were to compare what they believe, their confessions, their standard of faith, their books of common order and all that kind of stuff, with other ones, you'd recognize, uh, I'm not even sure I can see any differences here. Yeah, that's right. Wha what is going on?
Yeah. Well even at a local level, I mean anybody that puts that on the church sign is a great illustration because that it reflects a a immaturity to understand how to rightly uh divide God's word um in terms of prioritization or triaging like we mentioned or uh even how you're engaging as a local church.
as a gop gospel witness in a local town. Mm-hmm. Uh that the first thing that I want my neighbors to hear about is the good news of Jesus, not the good news of King James only and and dispensationalism. Right. It doesn't mean that those things don't matter. The Bible translation doesn't matter. That that uh fidelity to uh original languages, even if you're trying to make some word for word old historic argument of the King James, that's why all of that kind of fight.
All of that is something that comes after they hear the good news of Jesus and then we try to build them up so that they can reach mature understandings uh doctrinally and those who come much, much later. So when you have that imbalance in terms of how you think about doctrine and unity, then you're gonna bring that imbalance to a larger um gospel partner denominational level or network level.
Or um or you're also gonna and it's also gonna be reflected at a local level that creates a very sectarian, um, navel gazing, uh inwardly spiraled type uh local church that ultimately ends up dying.
Because
Only the pure can be a part of this and only the ones who are already here are the purest ones. Sure. Or they have to be pure first and therefore nobody comes, nobody gets saved. God removes the lamp and everybody dies. Yeah, it's a purity spiral into death every single time.
Us four, no more, bar the door.
Yeah.
So hearing all of this, if if we were gonna do maybe build a better tent, what would be some of the things we wouldn't want to be a part of it?
¶ Building a Better Tent: You Need Tent Poles
Can I mean if we're gonna stick with a metaphor, you can't have a tent without tent poles. Okay. That's what upholds the tent. That's what gives it structure, shape, prevents it from collapsing and so on. And uh I I would say in this metaphor, the tent poles are The confessional statements and statements of faith that denominations have collectively agreed reflect uh an accurate reading of scripture.
And somebody's gonna say, but they don't agree on that. I know. That's why there's different denominations. And they're not all right. That's not how truth works. But within each of those denominations, they have come to an agreement. We believe that the scriptures teach these things, and we're not going to debate them.
We're not gonna compromise on'em. No. We're not going to change it. This is this is who we are. This is what we believe. I mean, Westminster was written a long time ago. PCA's still using it. It's not like they think, well, I mean, we think they got Fifty percent wrong. You know, no if you
It's the best we got.
If you just PCR anymore. Right? Do you notice what I'm saying? So you you need rigid, I mean utterly inflexible tent poles. that are doc giving structured doctrinal standards that you you believe these are true and we're not gonna fight about'em, we're not gonna debate'em. You don't wanna be part of this tent. You go somewhere else and the Lord bless you and keep you. and make his face to shine upon you, but it's not gonna be here.
Yeah, and to your point, these are not these are not arbitrary temples. These these are those handed down, rightly discerned time scriptures, time tested in accordance with the confessional standards. Eve even the Baptists build a lot of their confessional statements on historic b Baptist confessions. They're always contemporizing. So even the the Southern Baptist statement um originally found it back in twenty five.
Yeah, so.
twenty five, sixty three, two thousand. All of those uh various iterations were still building on the confessions that preceded and Correct.
Right.
Those are the tent poles, not arbitrarily, but in accordance with God's word. But they also um th define what those uh various tents look like and then even in the broader tent they help us understand how we relate to a broader uh historic church. Protestant alliance, you might say, in terms of favorability, like Baptists should be p pulling for Presbyterians. Mm-hmm. They should be excited. Uh Presbyterians love Christ. Uh they love the gospel.
Uh, they love the local church, they love mission, they want to see it further. Uh Baptists should be cheering on Presbyterians and vice versa. That should not be uh that sh we should be united in our common um Protestant right heritage and right discernment of the of the scriptures. uh that's in line with um the the church throughout all of history.
So strict about the temples, but you shouldn't be strict about things that your denomination has uh agreed are what we call odiaphora, right? They're they're not matters that are clearly settled in the scriptures. Right. And so there are some things we've we have agreed that we're not gonna fight about. You know, there are people who dress differently in uh in their services on Sunday.
Some guys wear suits and ties. That's very modern, but some people do it. Uh some guys wear like the old D. James Kennedy looks like he was uh in a graduation ceremony every Sunday. Right with his robes but you could see his tie.
Or corp.
Yeah. Some do the whole some do the throwback, right? They look like a Protestant out of the seventeen hundreds. Collars and all the rest, okay? I'm I'm not gonna fight about that. I have a thought
Do do or doing plaid still. Some f some folks are doing plaid or they're doing uh polos or they're doing uh weird cardigans uh like I pull off every now and then. Like it's it it can be whatever.
Uh I have a thought. I don't think all those are created equal. I have a thought that governs why I might dress the way that I dress uh uh when I preach, but I'm not going to police a guy who says I just I don't I don't know if that is necessary. I would say, you know what? It's not necessary. Right. I'm not gonna fight about that. It's a waste of my breath. I could write a blog about
the position that I hold and wh why I would exhort others to do it. But I'm not going to kick them out of the nomination if they don't. That's insane. That do you see what I'm saying? That's just a silly example that sh everybody should be able to agree on. And yet there are people who wouldn't. They would say no, no, no. If you're not wearing a collar Yeah are you you're you're not reflecting Protestant heritage and you don't look like
Claro.
Yeah, exactly. What other kind?
Just a color colour.
No, no, I was just amen and I mean I just think we should just get together for the gospel and be around the gospel. Right.
¶ The Tent Is for Work, Not Just Poles
Yeah, I mean that that's the whole tent. I mean if we got we've got the tent right, I'm pretty sure there's a canvas or some type of tarp over the top. You got the poles down. I only only um thought about this recently'cause my daughter graduated from high school and somehow they had a ad hoc tent out back so
Very very recent illustration. Yes. But also the tent is not just there for the polls. And we just stare at the polls and therefore we write blogs about the polls, talk about the polls only. Of course we gotta defend the the the the structures, the doctrinal integrity. But the the ten is there for us to do work.
That's correct.
Do mm. That's correct. Yes. Yeah. Everybody needs to be a part of this kingdom tent so they can uh enter into um these churches, be built up, cared for, the gospel can go forth, God's salvation can reach all the nations.
That's exactly right.
Yeah.
Yeah, so so anybody who tries to attack the poll, literally they're coming hard at some doctrine that we've agreed is a settled matter. Right? You take them.
In the corner that pulls out, remember the old wood wood timble? He starts, he starts axing the bottom. Someone's got to grab that guy. Somebody's got to get it.
Get him out of there. Get him out of there.
No. He likes to tear things down.
Let him alone.
It's mean to tell you.
Stop it. Stop it. Go play somewhere else. But but your point is so important. Uh the the the the the stopping point can't be we got them beautiful temples. Yeah.
Well look at this tent. Look at that tent. No, we're here to do work in the tent.
That's the bitty bitter.
So the the the doctrines are not an end in themselves. That's right. They are there to be received. They're there to be believed and yes, sometimes enforced when people deviate from them. But they're not the final point. We don't just say we've got the doctrine right. The point is you get the doctrine right so that you can build the kind of church that's doing real work.
Yeah, that's to your point, Joe, like with the the the tent has always should be God's kingdom tent, the biggest tent. is always expanding. The the various uh other better tents that make up the big tent of the kingdom should be also expanding uh to constantly bring as many people in as possible. So you're So it's it's not that we um engage in syncretistic worldliness. Right. We we go outside the tent.
to bring people into the tent and therefore we we move the boundaries of the pent tent, if you will, make the tent bigger. The doctrinal standards do not change. The scope of the goodness that everybody's under is what they're actually coming into. So there's not an issue of whether or not we're transforming the tent to look like the world. The world is actually being subsumed under this big gospel tent as all the nations are coming into Christ's kingdom. Absolutely.
And and just to say all this in a non-metaphorical way, what we're really saying is that doctrinal fidelity is necessary, but not sufficient to produce revival, renewal. Yeah. Growth, discipleship, to all the other things that every church should want to see. It's necessary. You can't have real growth without the truth that God uses to produce that growth.
It is necessary, but it's not sufficient. No. You could have a pay paper, I mean perfect on paper confessional statement. But if you're not believing it, living it. Amen.
Right.
Practicing it, uh and and actually seeing that it's not an end in itself and you're rejoicing in the structure instead of the function of the structure. That's right. Uh then you won't see these things and you you and What is it us for no more and bar the door? That will become the mentality over time, whether you intended for it to be or not. That's right.
It's doctrine embodied. It's faith in practice. It's taking God's at his w at his word. Absolutely. And and that that's and so we need that to the maximum degree. Agreed. So we're not watering down God's word. Um, but we are embracing it fully, uh, with um with with cheerful heart.
¶ A Closing Charge to the SBC & PCA
Um to be obedient to Christ and and bring him all the glory.
Yeah.
And see his see his gospel go forth for the good of all nations.
So if you're S B C and you care about truth and unity, then vote for Moeller's amendment and Let's stop fighting about what the Bible and our statement of faith already make clear so that we can live in this tent that we've got and do the work that we're called to do. Yes. Same if you're PCA. Uh mutatus mutandus, right? Whatever whatever it is they're fighting about right now, uh vote.
in accordance with your confessional statement, your book of church order, all the things you've got so that you can get busy doing the work God's called you to do. Get rid of the the tent pole gnawers.
That's right.
And chopper.
And and if if you're if you're a a leader, if you're a Christian leader, if you're a pastor of local churches, lead your church into this. If you're a denominational leader, uh and uh various the uh the various partnering ministries, organizations, seminaries or otherwise. lead everybody into uh um unity around the truth. Don't just sit on your hands and constantly be someone who the scriptures refer to as a hireling.
that you at essentially will be tossed to and fro by every wind of everybody's vote. Mm-hmm. Right. Lead well so that folks can follow your example and encourage everybody towards uh uh all the things that we've been speaking about.
And and the last thing I'll say is And remember that calling and our commitment to Christ. It lacks integrity. to agree to something and then to do opposite of that in his church. Let's just own what we already agreed to. for integrity's sake and for uplifting the gospel through this word. Period paragraph. Agreed. And um you can't say I'm a do it then don't do it. And then no, man. Come on man. Let's let's just
Let's do it with cheerful hearts. Yeah. Don't go bitter and and and uh and and poles. Yeah, just just angry, angry, mad and just stand there like a security guard with around strip temp poles. Why don't we give some hugs, some laughs? Some joy, some gospel, and uh just have a uh a wonderful, joy filled, rejoicing time in Christ's kingdom. Be the Lord in you.
SBC is gonna be in Orlando, right? Let's have a
Let's go for air conditioning.
Y'all enjoy for better tense to God's glory. Yep. Thanks guys.
🎵 Music