¶ Intro / Opening
Latitude Media, podcast at the frontier of climate technology.
¶ Initial Vision for Green Hydrogen
What is your favorite color of hydrogen and how do you feel about the hydrogen rainbow?
Uh I don't really like rainbows in general. Um I'm I'm kind of grouchy that way.
Okay, good to know.
I I also don't really care much for hydrogen. It's a molecule. It's it's an element. It's lovely. I don't see it in and of itself as a solution to any of the problems we have in energy.
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Rafi Garabidian is in the hydrogen business.
deploying really cheap, abundant renewables into sectors like the chemical industry are are really what drives my interest in hydrogen. And hence electrolytic hydrogen, so-called green hydrogen, is the thing I'm interested in.
Rafi runs a company called Electric Hydrogen that manufactures electrolyzers. He founded it with his friend and longtime business associate, Dave Eaglesham, a few years back.
We started electric hydrogen in very late 2020, essentially the beginning of 2021, uh kind of just At the beginning of maybe we could call it the the latest hydrogen hype cycle.
At the time, the energy industry, and specifically proponents of renewables, were really interested in how hydrogen could be used as a way to store, move, and use excess clean energy.
When we started out, our focus was Deep decarbonization of critical industries. If our focus is deep decarbonization, we need to look first and foremost at the largest polluters and uh which of those are opportunities to economically decarbonize. a green molecule that's a replacement for fossil molecules.
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¶ Designing Large-Scale Electrolyzers
We'll get into the details of how the hydrogen is made a little bit later. But for now, all you need to know is that hydrogen made with clean energy is called green hydrogen. And Rafi and Dave wanted to build machines that make green hydrogen, aka electrolyzers. Specifically, they wanted to build electrolyzers with proton exchange membranes, or PEM electrolysers for short.
Generally, PEM systems are relatively small. They're measured in kilowatts, hundreds of kilowatts, up to the largest today, one to two megawatts per electrolyzer. And they're thought to be extremely expensive.
That combination of small, expensive machines wasn't something that Rafi and Dave thought would be scalable. So they set out to build a much larger, cheaper electrolyzer. So can you say a little bit about how you thought about the size of your product as you were starting out?
Go for broke.
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I'm Lara Pierpoint, and this is The Green Blueprints, a show about the architects of the clean energy economy. We've already invented most of the solutions needed to decarbonize the global economy. But many of these technologies are not yet commercial, and they need to get financed and built at scale. We don't have decades to get them commercialized, we have years.
This week, I talked to Rafi Garabidian, co-founder and CEO of Electric Hydrogen, about building big machines and the ups and downs of technology hype cycles.
Energy is the ultimate commodity. There's nothing more fundamentally commoditized than energy. And uh and so everything we talk about has to be rooted in in cost.
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¶ Solar Industry Lessons for Cost Reduction
Proton exchange membrane technology was invented in the early 1960s by General Electric for the U.S. Navy. They used it to make oxygen on submarines.
So when you break water electrolytically, obviously you get hydrogen and oxygen. In the early days of pentelectrolysis, oxygen was the product you wanted to, you know, help people breathe in submarines.
Pemelectrolysis works by moving water through a two sided membrane. With the help of an electric current, water moves through and then hydrogen forms on one side and oxygen forms on the other side. The hydrogen can then be used as an energy carrier. So Rafi and Dave wanted to build these electrolyzers and they wanted to make them a lot less expensive. Because taking existing technology and making it more efficient and therefore less expensive, well, that's kind of their thing.
This harkens back to my and my co-founder's experience in the solar industry. where we we did exactly the same thing. Your listeners who know something about solar will recognize that the cost of solar modules has come down orders of magnitude in the last twenty years. Um, and that's in part because of material cost reductions, but actually much more so because of scale and
Efficiency improvements. Efficiency drives the cost of solar systems because the same physical module, when it's more efficient, produces more energy. And the cost is measured in dollars per watt, right? Not dollars per module. Uh, the same, it turns out, can be true of electrolyzers. And that's really the thing we focused on at electric hydrogen in the early days.
So once Rafi and Dave decided they wanted to build these electrolysers, they had to decide how big to make them. At the top of the show, Rafi said most of the PEM technology on the market today ranges from a few kilowatts to a few megawatts.
The sectors we're looking to decarbonize with kind of green molecules, so-called green molecules, if you measure them in terms of uh electrolysis or generating capacity, we're talking multiple terawatts. of needed new energy supply, new power supply to cross into those sectors.
As a reminder, one terawatt equals one million megawatt. So the size of the electrolysers on the market just wasn't going to cut it.
People were scratching their heads in the market about, geez, you know, how how is this green hydrogen stuff going to work if you're making 10 megawatt electrolyzers or two megawatt electrolyzers? I need I need a gigawatt. Of hydrogen. This doesn't sound like a real solution.
And that's why electric hydrogen decided to go bigger, much bigger.
When we approached people with the idea of a 100-megawatt scale product, uh it definitely resonated, as did the price point that we thought we could.
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¶ Scaling and Piloting Large Electrolyzers
So, with their expertise and what they knew at the time about market demand, Rafi and Dave started scaling electric hydrogen. It didn't take long to find potential customers for their 100 megawatt systems, and they made plans to build their own manufacturing facility in Devons, Massachusetts. But even with this momentum, Rafi knew that financing the first few systems would be a big challenge.
It's super hard to finance something that big as a first of a kind. In fact it's hard to finance as a second or a third of a kind too. It it doesn't get easier until you've probably built four or five of them. That's a pretty tall order. It's a lot of money that someone has to put to risk to see this technology launched.
In December of 2024, Electric Hydrogen announced the opening of its Massachusetts gigafactory. The opening marked a major milestone for the company. I talked with Rafi about electric hydrogen scaling journey, how they finance the factory, and where their electrolyzers are being deployed. And remember that hype cycle that Rafi mentioned at the top? Well, the next phase was about to make things difficult.
Obviously, as you're getting started, the very first thing you build is not about to be a hundred megawatt electrolyzer. So can you talk about your pilot projects? How did you decide to size them? How did you finance them? What were these projects like? And what did they prove for you?
I haven't mentioned this, but an electrolysis device is called a stack because it's like a stack of pancakes. Each uh pancake in the stack is a cell. Many of those pancakes stacked up makes a stack. The stack is the unit of operation. It's the device that produces hydrogen from water and electricity. As we scaled it up, uh, the stack technology became proven and we needed platforms, well, not proven, the stack technology became like materialized.
And we needed um test systems in order to validate that it works the way we expect it to work. So the first thing we built was um was a 330 kilowatt test system, just a test system in the lab, uh, and think of that as a way to test. um a few of these cells at a time. We got a bunch of run runtime under our belts there, and then we um put our minds to building a larger system at a megawatt scale.
A megawatt scale is still a small fraction of the capacity of our stack. But it's the next thing we built. Um, we built that, operated it for a while, and then um decided it's time to produce. a large scale system that represents the repeat unit that will be um produced in our hundred megawatt plant. So our hundred megawatt plant is not one stack.
a repeat of stacks and power conversion. And so we built that repeat unit uh in San Jose. It's a 10 megawatt scale um electrolyzer. It's operating today. and have utilized that to prove out the stack technology, but also more importantly, the or just as importantly, the integration of the stack technology into the so-called balance of plant, which is the control systems, the power conversion systems. the fluid systems um that handle the water, purify it, separate the gases from the water, etc.
And as you're building and financing these successively larger demos, effectively, is this all venture financing, government grants? What sorts of things did you bring to bear?
This is almost all venture financing. So we raise quite a bit of money um from the venture community. Uh thankfully at a time when uh when again there was a lot of interest uh in green hydrogen. um which gave us the ability to self-finance and move very, very quickly.
¶ Building a Dedicated Manufacturing Plant
And so the next decision you made was to build a manufacturing plant for your electrolysers. So talk about that decision. Was that sort of like very obviously the next phase or did you consider kind of building a hundred megawatt project before you built a manufacturing facility? How did you think about that next step?
The cell technology is bespoke. It's, you know, invented by us. It it can only be made by us. Um, we did not see and we're not interested in um an outsourcing approach to build cells and stacks. And so Even to get to the 10 megawatt facility, we needed a manufacturing operation. We made these full-scale devices in RD labs in, they happened to be in Natick, Massachusetts.
for about a year. But at the same time we we were searching for, ultimately found and and built out our manufacturing facility down the road in a town called Devon's Map. We come from a co-founders and I come from a manufacturing background at First Solar. Building a factory is a big thing. It's a heavy undertaking. Um, but it was a necessary step to proving out the technology because look, I mean, making something work in the lab is one thing.
making it work in a manufacturing environment at a throughput that that is realistic and at a cost structure that works for the business, that's a whole nother math.
Well, so let's get into the details of this. So you mentioned that you you essentially needed to build a sort of small amount of manufacturing capacity just to be able to get to your 10 megawatt demo. Is that right?
Yeah, so in our manufacturing facility, we built uh a pilot line. And so think you can sometimes think of a manufacturing facility as multiple parallel lines um feeding into, you know, into larger unit operations. We built a pilot line for the critical piece of the technology, which is really the membrane electrode assembly and some of the other components.
um and started to exercise it, it took maybe six months, I'd say, to root out all the issues to debug that process, which, you know, it you you find all sorts of things when you do this. Uh because you no longer have PhDs building something, you have technicians building'em and it's a whole nother animal. So yeah, that's that's what we had to go through to um to start to produce at a scale sufficient to uh feed both our our ten megawatt pilot plant in San Jose.
but also uh to continue to iterate on the technology and improve its performance and reliability. Um we're now in the phase of ramping up the capacity on that line to produce commercial volumes.
¶ Customer Acquisition and Market Shifts
And so how have you been thinking about lining up customers as you go into building this pilot line and ultimately this bigger manufacturing facility? Like at what point did you start actually trying to line customers up for your electrolyzers?
Oh we've been we've been outselling for I'd say two years now. Laura, one thing I'll I'll note here is that for a thing at the scale we're making it, a hundred megawatt electrolyzer plant. uh the sales cycles are very, very long because they're tied to project development life cycles. And project development at this scale can take anywhere from three to five years.
So our customers' journey is quite long and their technology selection occurs partway through that journey. But then there's a lot more to be done before they reach what's called financial investment decision, FID, which in commercial terms, means and order for us. And then we have to produce the electrolyzer, deliver it, commission it.
before it goes into operation. We didn't discuss this, but uh worth noting here, we at Electric Hydrogen are not a producer of hydrogen. We produce the equipment, the technology that enables other people to produce hydrogen at their project. Those project sites can be, they can be at a refinery, they can be at an ammonia plant, they can be an e-methanol facility, they could be an ESAF sustainable aviation fuel facility, et cetera, et cetera.
So you're in the process of securing customers. As you say, these are kind of long lead times. And um, was there sort of a specific signal you were waiting for with respect to your customer acquisition before you pulled the trigger on building the manufacturing plant? Or were those almost independent journeys for you?
Yeah, um we were looking for signals um and and we got them in the form of capacity reservation agreements. So, you know, we have a number of of these agreements with various um project developers. I'll name a few that are public, uh, Intersect Power, AES. um or a couple that we have agreements with. Basically they say, look, um we'll put some cash down to reserve your manufacturing capacity over the next few years so that we have access to your technology in our project.
Um now that only works in a in a seller's market. Right. A market where people are anticipating that um that demand for the the product, the electrolyzer in this case, will outstrip the available supply of technology that meets their needs. And at the time we signed these agreements, it was a seller's market and so we were able to to pull it off and that was the demand signal that kind of put the wind in our sails to build the factory and
and uh and start to scale it up. Things change quickly, right? It's not a seller's market in electrolytic hydrogen anymore, at least not for the time being. We've definitely come out of hype mode and we're in hydrogen disillusionment mode right now, I think global.
The trough of disillusionment that inevitably follows the hype cycle. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, we're definitely in it. But you know, we're we're now past capacity reservation agreements and really the demand signals we look at now are purchase or So real business to build electrolysers for folks who need them.
But that's jumping ahead. After the break, Rafi explains how Electric Hydrogen found customers for their$100 million product and where the hype cycle is today.
¶ Financing Manufacturing and Technology Risk
Can you share like what what was the level of willingness to pay in this moment of high hype and sort of the seller's market? How much cash did they put on the table relative to the total cost of these electrolyzers?
I can't give you an actual number because it's confidential, but um but I'll just tell you it's you know millions per per customer for the privilege of reserving future capacity.
And what's the total cost of each electrolyzer?
If you look at total installed cost, a typical competitor's electrolyzer will be somewhere between$1,500 a kilowatt and$2,500 a kilowatt. So round numbers call it$2000, so that's$200 million for a hundred megawatt electrolyzer plant. Um we are about half that total installed cost.
So you're lining up customers, you have a technology that works, you're ready to go build this manufacturing facility and get it started up with a pilot line. And you need financing to build this facility. So talk a little bit about how you thought about that challenge.
So one of the things we did early on. is put in place a equipment debt finance instrument. The concept there is that, you know, you could spend venture dollars buying equipment for manufacturing. Again, venture dollars are super expensive. So it's hard to justify doing that. Another mechanism is to debt finance, um, but
who's going to lend you money to build a manufacturing facility for a product that's unproven yet? In comes a class of capital, equipment finance capital, which is kind of like a mortgage on your house.
You use that capital to buy equipment, let's say a laser cutter, for example, and the debt financier has a lien on the equipment. So if for some reason you can't pay back your debt, They own the equipment and can turn around and sell it for a pretty well established return on their initial investment. So this is an amazing, amazing, wonderful way to finance manufacturing facilities if you can pull it together, which is what we did. We also won a DOE grant to help us improve our manufacturing.
Uh operation, increased throughput, reduced cost, and some of that capital is also going uh towards our manufacturing expansion.
Very cool. And let's so let's talk about how you secured the equipment financing for a second. And I have a a provocative question for you, which is the In the early part of your company years, you're selling to venture capitalists or you're working to finance your operations with venture capitalists. And a lot of what venture capitalists love to hear is how bespoke
Your technology is, how much IP there is, how big the moat is between you and what everyone else is doing, how unique it is. And when you go talk to an equipment financier, You basically wanna have the opposite argument, right? Because they want to know that they can resell this and it's gonna be easy for someone else to use and it's low risk and all these other things. So how did you think about that dichotomy and where do you think you fall on that actual technology risk spectrum?
Yeah, you're right. Venture capital wants a moat, right? A technology moat in our case. You know, what's special about you? What can you defend? Um and that that does on the face of it seem to be a conflict. We always have taken the position, and uh again, this is learning from our experience in manufacturing and solar. We've always taken the position that it's in our interest to leverage as much as possible existing solutions, particularly manufacturing solutions from nearby industries.
Lots of people in the world use membranes for different things, like water purification, for example. Can we borrow, adapt manufacturing technology, process technology from those industries to our needs? So the approach we've always taken is avoid customization of equipment wherever possible. Use standard off the shelf equipment. You know, it can always be configured.
So you'd consider that more tooling, but use available equipment that's well proven, well demonstrated, with all the bugs and kinks worked out of it, adapt it to our needs. Uh and that fits very well with the capital financing, the equipment financing approach.
So it's kind of like the like you could say that sort of like the guts inside the cell itself is something that is distinctly yours, but the equipment used to manufacture it, you worked really hard to make sure that that was as standardized as possible.
That's right. I'd say the only equipment on our line that's highly nonstandard is our test equipment, which is all homebrew. Yeah, homebrew stuff.
Okay, so you're ready to go build your manufacturing plant. You've got financing for it, but obviously you also need customers to be ultimately really buying this.
¶ Project Bankability and Customer Selection
And it's not straightforward for them to figure out how to finance a hundred megawatt electrolyzer. So how did you go about securing your customers and thinking about the financing that they were going to need in order to actually build these?
There's this thing that you've heard about bankability. All right, what does that mean? Is it it means is a technology financial? Will an infrastructure capital provider, equity and debt, will they put their money to work to build one of these things? And the answer is large scale green hydrogen is not bankable today, so who's gonna buy if they're dependent on project finance? Most project developers use project finance.
They don't buy and build on their own balance sheet. They partner with with capital with capital providers to do that. And so, you know, as we talk to potential customers, the interest in our product was very strong. Our price point is unbeatable and enables a lot of projects to actually economically work, whereas otherwise they wouldn't.
But geez, yeah, we're not sure we can finance it. So as you think about that problem and you know, we we learned more and more talking to more and more customers, we we recognized what we needed was What's called a balance sheet buyer, right? This is somebody who's willing to buy using their own capital, not going to a bank, a project finance bank.
And, you know, why why is that interesting? It's interesting because generally there's somebody at a company like that who can determine that the risk is worth taking. In comes the billion. So there are very few people actually. There are very few companies and potential customers who fit this this mold. And generally they involve somebody who, you know, it it almost like it's not necessarily a sole proprietorship, but a company that that maybe makes decisions in that way.
So say a bit more about kind of how you went about searching for customers. Were you looking for those with big balance sheets and or for those that really had a big risk appetite? And then say more about this elusive billionaire. What sort of industry were they in? what what exactly was their skin in this game when it came to hydrogen production?
We spend a lot of time thinking about why does a customer's project make sense? Because if it doesn't make sense, it really actually probably won't get built. Even today, the world of electrolytic hydrogen is full of projects. that shouldn't get built. Right now, the green hydrogen or electrolytic hydrogen market is extremely subsidy dependent. The industry hasn't scaled yet. We haven't gotten down our cost curve.
And so the end product is considerably more expensive than the fossil alternative and hence requires some sort of uh policy to drive its adoption, either a carrot or a stick. But Um what we found is that that in and of itself is not sufficient. To cause an end user to buy. So ammonia is used to make fertilizer. The fertilizer industry has no compulsion or real kind of soft motivation to decarbonize. Interestingly.
By the time ammonia gets turned into fertilizer, gets turned into food that ultimately gets sold to consumers, right? No one really cares through that whole supply chain. Whether the ammonia was high or low emission. And so even though there's relatively low switching cost, ammonia producers are not interested in taking the risk. of switching from fossil to green or clean. And we found that not only here in the US, but around the world actually.
In Europe, on the other hand, they have both subsidies, support mechanisms, and also compulsions or sticks. And these are mandates to decarbonize for certain high-emission industries. So the chemical industry, for example, is one of the industries in Europe that needs to decarbonize incrementally. for the uh uh European delegated act. And that mandate provides uh a further motivation for the end consumers of molecules to make the transition.
The kind of driver that we think makes projects work. And so we look at the end offtake for a project. If the end buyer is a company operating in Europe that is subject to these kinds of incentives and mandates, then we can do the math on that and conclude whether or not the project actually works or doesn't work. And and hence we can predict with higher fidelity whether the project will actually get built, which is what we really care about.
Well let's talk a little bit about building the factory in Massachusetts.
¶ Reflections on Scaling Challenges
So it's no joke to build things. And we talk about that often on this show. Has there been a moment in the context of standing up your pilot line and now moving into its expansion where you've been kind of like wondering, is this going to work?
A lot of people jump into manufacturing not having really done it before. We've done it before, so uh so I think we're gluttons for punishment trying to do it again. Um, but it's a compulsion. It's a you know, it's it's a disease, I guess. that you you can have and we have it. And you know, even with uh all our kind of enterprise experience in advanced manufacturing and standing up new manufacturing facilities. Uh, I would say we still underestimated the problem and failed to anticipate.
some critical issues that in hindsight we should have anticipated. So super interesting and and maybe something for me to think about at length, uh uh once we're once we're fully through it. But uh yeah, it's been a it's been a very tough, rocky road over the period of I think the last year. Um but we're we're at a good place now.
Okay. Well, let's talk about some reflections on all of this. Is there anything that you can talk about that you might have done differently in the context of your scaling journey? It seems like you're hitting on all pistons, you're doing you know, some great work, particularly with customer acquisition and this long and challenging sales cycle. But anything that you might have strategically done a little bit differently in your scaling journey to date?
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I think we underestimated the challenges. Of deploying and customer acquisition, as you say, uh at the scale that we operate at. And in hindsight, I think we should have also been far more Scrutiness, is that a word? We should apply a lot more scrutiny to our customer conversations to focus in on earlier on markets that actually make sense. and can ultimately lead to FIDs and construction of electrolysers.
So yeah, a lot to learn from from the journey. I I don't think uh, you know, looking back on our on our experience, I wouldn't say any of the learnings and insights are really around the technical scale. um the manufacturing side, I mean there's a lot there, but but really it's the scaling of the market that's uh that's been the hardest and that in hindsight I think we we could have taken a different approach.
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¶ Navigating the Disillusionment Trough
Well, and so let's let's dig into that a little bit more. So one of the things that you mentioned, for example, is that we are in a trough of disillusionment, as it were, in terms of the hydrogen hype cycle. So I think there's There's some ways in which that's probably real and meaningful that that maybe folks are thinking less about hydrogen production for for some serious reasons and also that just, you know, hype.
bursts eventually, whether or not it should. So can you say a little bit more about like what you think is the shape of this trough of disillusionment, what you're seeing out there in the market and how that's affecting your strategy now?
So I think As it stands today, people should be disillusioned with electrolytic hydrogen. It is too expensive. And for me, that's no surprise. In fact, we started the company specifically to address that. problem. Electrolysers today in the$2,000 a kilowatt range, they're too expensive to produce economically viable green hydrogen. And we're seeing this in projects
all through the world. So where green hydrogen projects are being built, they're being built at price points that don't really make economic sense. Without massive subsidy support. And policymakers are seeing this and realizing oh, well, maybe this isn't really affordable. Right. Maybe this is maybe this is a little harder than we thought. We should scale back our ambitions. Our technology and our product reduces that cost by fifty percent. And gets us into the ballpark.
where green hydrogen becomes economically viable with moderate subsidy and support. And once we get to scale, it'll get even better from there. So I think a future where where e-molecules are at parity with their fossil alternatives is actually achievable. But we have to take bolder steps, particularly on technology and cost reduction, in order to get
¶ Competitors and Future Cost Reduction
And how do you think about this with respect to effectively your competitors out there? Because they're established, you know, PEM electrolyzer manufacturing companies out there. Have they realized this too? Are they starting to also focus on cost reduction?
Do you think it's important that there are a large number of approaches here? Or do you is like what is it that also gives you confidence in your approach specifically in kind of surviving this trough of disillusionment, as it were, and demonstrating cost parity?
Okay, so if you look at the incumbent electrolyzer producers Um, there are the big industrials. I'm talking about companies like Siemens and Tyson Grub uh Cummins. who are not in the business of mercilessly driving cost out of their products, right? They're they're heavy industrial suppliers, they're generally in the business of maintaining kind of certain margin profiles. and selling value. I don't think that works in green hydrogen. It didn't work in solar by
Yeah, it's a perfect...
Right. So that's kind of like the history of solar really taught me that the large industrial once a business gets focused on cost, they kind of step out, step back and step out. So so that's one class of electrolyzer producers. Then there are kind of some pure plays companies like Nell, like um
Plug Power is not quite a pure play, but you could you could put them in that category. Um, and these are folks who haven't shown the desire maybe or the the ability to be highly innovative technically to drive coffee. So where does the change come from? It comes from startups like us. That's that's what we believe. And it also comes from China, right? Again, back to the solar industry. Um if you look at the history of cost reduction in solar, a lot of the impetus for driving cost.
came from two places. It came from first solar. We were the only company who actually openly published our cost, not just our price, in a desire to reduce the price of solar industry wide, right? You wanted to lead the market down in pricing. And China, who just came in and mercilessly undercut everybody they could. Now, the geopolitics are different now than they were in the early days of solar, and China can't play that game again, at least not in Europe and in the US.
So it's a different dynamic, but but certainly you know we view them, we view Chinese Chinese companies as uh the likely competitors who are also going to get down the cost curve along with us.
That makes sense.
¶ Accelerating Cost and Scale
Okay. If I wired a hundred million dollars into your company's bank account tomorrow, what would you do with it?
Go faster.
Yes. I love that answer.
I think we're on the I think we're on the right track. Uh again, we're super focused on cost and scale, which are the two things, only two things that matter uh in the energy industry. And, you know, the only thing slowing us down is our ability to uh make the pragmatic decisions every step of the way uh to to move fast.
Ravi, thank you so much for joining us on the Green Blueprint. This has been a super fascinating interview, and I can't wait to see what happens with EH2 in the years to come.
All right. Thanks, Laura. Great talking to you.
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Rafi Garabidian is the co-founder and CEO of Electric Hydrogen. The Green Blueprint is produced by Latitude Media in partnership with Charles Climate. The show is hosted by me, Lara Pierpoint. Our producer is Aaron Hardick. Ann Bailey is our senior editor. Sean Marquand is our technical director. Stephen Lacey is our executive editor. If you'd like to suggest topics or guests for the show,
Send an email to thegreenblueprint at latitudemedia.com. You can listen to the Green Blueprint at latitudemedia.com or subscribe wherever you get podcasts. And if you have fellow clean energy or Climate tech travelers who would benefit from the insights in this show, send them a link. This is the Green Blueprint, a show about the architects of the clean energy economy.