This is Pod Popular Podcast for the People.
The Great Love Debate. It's the Great Love Debate, the Great Love Debate.
It's a Great Love to bab Hi again. Everyone, It's Brian Howie.
Welcome to the Great Love Debate, the world's number one dating and a relationship podcast since twenty fifteen. I am back here in the very fine studios of Pod Popular Podcasts for the People. I'm at the uh what's known as the Pop Pod in the one in Boca Ratone. It is very luxurious. What I want to get into today is not that luxurious.
I can't.
I don't think i've ever I've done, you know, almost five hundred episodes of this podcast. I don't think I've ever done an entire episode related to this. It's tough to bring up. It's painful for people. It's touched on on a lot of our podcasts and a lot of the relationships things that that we get into. But I have noticed that it is it is a rampant problem, and that is the issue of cheating, fidelity.
And I travel a lot for business.
I travel a lot for this podcast, and I stay in a lot of hotels, and I stay in a lot of you know, mid range business hotels. So I'm in you know, Hilton's and Hyatts and Marriott's, and the scene in those hotels and in the bars and in the restaurants where there are people with badges on and rings in their pockets and quickly calling home to check in with their husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, and then acting like the husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend does not exist.
In the world, and doing whatever they want to do as somebody who is not married.
I'm always like, is the wife husband okay? With just that quick phone call and that's all they want? Is that their deal?
Is that okay?
Do they know what's going on? I have a million questions on this. I go to I've been to some and youth sports games with friends of mine and mom and dad hate each other, but they're like flirting with the friends, the kids, friends, and anyway, a lot to get into.
I couldn't navigate this to myself. I have to bring in a pro for this.
Not that she's a cheating pro, but she is a pro on really understanding this landscape. Those of you who've listened to this podcast for a long long time, you've heard her on here before. She's been on my stage many many times. She is the author of First Comes Us?
Is that right? She's therapist.
She's got a new book coming out that I'm not going to tell you about, but she really is passionate about this weird subject too.
My old friend, Anita Chapala, how are you?
I'm doing great? How are you doing?
Am I wrong to think cheating is? I don't know if the word normalized is ever, but it is. It's pandemic, it is. I feel like there's more of it. I feel like husbands and wives and boyfriends or girlfriends are a lot more distant and checked out. I feel like people are looking for stimuli from other places. I feel like there's a flippancy about it, but the pain of it and the dishonesty of it it's real.
Yeah, I mean I don't necessarily see a flippancy to it. I mean I think just the clients that come to me obviously are looking to see if they can heal and repair their relationship. But I have had the flippancy I do sometimes see is if someone doesn't like if there's a difference between two partners considering when they disagree on their either definition of cheating or one partner is engaging in some behaviors that they think are fine, but
partner be views it as disrespectful. So then there could be some minimization, deflecting, gaslighting, you know, things like that. But I do agree with you. In our practice, and especially for me because I do specialize in infidelity, we have seen a huge increase in cases coming to us.
Yeah, and you know, traditionally it was the men who were the cheaters, because the men are the ones who allegedly had the opportunities they were traveling on business and whatever. And just to be clear here, if you go back to my twenties, any of my old girlfriends, I was probably no saint on this subject matter a long time ago, and I was cheated on and it was you know, when it happened to me, it was the most painful experience I ever went through, the questioning that dishonest thing.
And the person who cheated on.
Me had had such a serious cheating thing happened to her twenty years prior that. I thought, if you were ever good this it so damaged her and it's probably damaged her to this day. It affected her marriage, it affected her relationships, She had trust issues, she had resentment issues, she had all kinds of things that I was like, there's no way this person would do that.
You just can never say that. You just never know.
And that's why part of it is is the hurt, the guilt, the shock, the and I was even somebody even told me, like one of her you know, anonymous or friend or somebody said hey, you know they're cheating on you and gave specific details about it. I was so like, there's no way that would ever happen. I protected her. I was like, no, that, there's no way that didn't happen. And I was like, you know, somebody's trying to make you feel bad. That's how shocking it
was to me. And so until it happens to you, I don't think I ever even went back and looked at my terrible behavior in my twenties that you know, oh, you're on spring break and your girlfriend at college's home and you may out with.
Somebody at Cancun. It's not good.
But a lot of times cheating comes from a place of a cry for help. I'm not satisfied at home, both partners probably sharing it to some degree, lack of communication.
It's very rarely just I need to go get laid right.
Yeah, I mean, well, I'm sorry that happened to you. And yes, I think sometimes my clients, and I think even in Esther Pearl's book The State of Affairs, that cheating is kind of being like the worst thing that can happen to a couple, even over divorce. So it
is really devastating. I mean, people experience PTSD symptoms. I treat it as a trauma and so you know, And yes, I think it is difficult for some people to empathize until they are actually going through it, which obviously I would not recommend for anyone just to be able to have empathy with their partner. But there could be a lot of reasons. I mean, one, you know, we do
we are seeing an increase in female and fidelity. And then two you would think that someone would not want to inflict the same pain, But there could be, you know, a number of reasons why you're ex did what she did.
Yeah, I know, And you know, people who operate from a place of pain don't always make rational decisions. And we're a lot of us are operating from a place of pain. But what I've noticed is a lot of times people are just not being heard in the home. A lot of the women I know who are.
I'm not gonna say they're cheaters.
But women who are doing things who I know are married and they're in adulterous affairs. Their husbands do not make them feel desired. Their tension in the house, as I've said many times on the show, is a problem. When you go from husband wife to mom and dad. There's a lot of that intimacy that has gone and some people just need anywhere from a flirt to a hug to a bed and they're crying out.
And that's why I know you work with people to try and repair it.
You think it has not absolutely fataled every relationship if you go back and see how the elements played into this and what part each person took, because it's rarely one hundred zero right.
Yes, However, I mean you also want to be careful because happy people can cheat. And I have had those clients on my caseload where they could say, you know, I'm feeling pretty good with my marriage and I'm feeling great. So the vast majority, yes, I agree with you that there is maybe something that was missing in the relationship, the lack of attention, disconnection, not feeling desired one hundred percent. But it doesn't explain away all of the reasons why
people cheat. There's not The relationship doesn't always have to be bad or quote unquote broken in order to give a person or reason to cheat.
So you just said happy people cheat. Explain that, what are those?
But how does that? I'm sure it happens, but explain that.
Well, here's one example. So I actually worked with this couple. They just on typical relationship stuff, typical marital stuff, and they came back to me for a few sessions because the husband ended up having a kind of emotional affair with an ex girlfriend from like twenty years prior, and so they started messaging, and then he minimized the whole time because he goes, this doesn't mean anything. You know she you know, I'm happy in my marriage. She lives
halfway around the world. Just really kind of looked at it from a more logical standpoint, and the wife was so upset. She's like, you were rehashing your feelings. You told her you would always love her. And one of the things that came out of it was that this woman ended up sending him some racy photos and he was like this is great. I've never gotten racy photos before, and so he was happy. There was just again minimizing and not really paying attention to your falling down this
slippery slope. You're making yourself vulnerable here and it ended up breaking trust. And so when I look at infidelity, I actually look at it in two parts. I look at protection of the relationship, and that's stuff like defining cheating, looking at your boundaries, how are you engaging in the relationship, how are you as a couple protecting your relationship? And then I look at the second piece, which it's satisfaction. And then that's some of the stuff that you talking about.
There might be something that has been missing in the relationship.
Yeah, And and then you know a lot of times, you know, there's there's two kinds. I kind of look at somebody who you're in the workplace with and you share a cubicle with, and you actually spend more awake time with that person than you probably do your partner, and you flirt and you hang out and whatever, and there becomes a closeness. And I'm not saying boundaries or ever cross, but there's this emotional attachment to a colleague or a coworker that happens.
Then there is.
People though that are just like on the road for business or traveling on a golf trip or whatever, and they're like, I am so disconnected from my home life.
This is just a distraction. This is separate.
This has just checked out that they don't look at the repercussions of what's going on at home.
And they probably also don't think they're going to get caught, and.
They think they're not going to get caught. I know.
And uh, one of the well of the common things that I see with my clients, especially the latter scenario, is that they are really good at compartmentalizing their lives where they do separate it. They do view whatever they do on work trips or when they're not home like I mean, I've even had some clients rationalize it as it doesn't count as cheating because it's not in the same state.
I mean, people rationalize all kinds of emotions and behaviors. Yeah, I know, And a lot of times the partner is okay with it as long as they come home eventually, or as long as they continue to be a good dad, or as long as they come back to me and share the bed or whatever. They're like, if this is what they need to do, get out of the system, sort of the old fashioned you know, the goumar.
It's not healthy.
But you know, Brian, I don't know if I would use the word a lot. I mean, I don't know who you hang out with, but my clients are definitely not okay with it. I mean, unless they're specific, they're not okay if someone if their partner goes then cheats on them when they're on a trip. Like I mean, people again, another characteristic of people who cheat, and I think sometimes the other partner as well, is there's a lot of conflict avoidance going on. So I think there's more.
Maybe we don't talk about it, or people don't talk about sex, or they don't talk about the problems in the relationship. But the reactions that people have when they find out that their partner cheated, they I mean, they're not okay with it.
No, I'm saying a lot is probably a strong word. But there's a lot of women are like, I'm tired. Let him touch anybody, just not me, Like I don't care, I don't find him attractive anymore. Like there's a lot of that, But you brought up early earlier, that is somehow more traumatic than divorce. I think you're right. If the divorce comes as a result of cheating, that's different.
But if divorce just comes from we don't like each other and we're not getting along or whatever the cheating, generally one of the partners still or both still have some emotional attachment there, and that's what has blown up more than divorce, which can be logistical and financial.
Yeah, and sometimes I mean, I would say maybe, although I have worked with clients where a divorce just seemed out of the blue. For the most part, clients kind of know if the relationship has had or the marriage is headed that way. But with infidelity kind of like what you said, how shocked you were, right, there's no way or someone who like, let's say both partners were suffering.
So it makes the non cheating partner even more angry because they're like, I was dealing with the same things that you were.
And and I didn't cheat.
Yeah, you know, I say for you.
But the person who you know, everybody is sort of looking out for their own best interest in the moment. And I remember what she said to me at the time, like it just happened, and I'm like, it just doesn't happen. This is like a multi hour day a thing like it just doesn't happen.
And you know, people.
Want to justify behavior, they want to compart in my line, they want to deal with But again, I'm not trying to let anybody off the hook on this, including myself.
People look for.
Alcohol, they look for drugs, they look for sex, they look for an escape from whatever pain they're in or their reality. And sometimes when you're in a relationship and you were like a real relationship, not just like we date on Saturday night when it's all fun, like you're dealing with kids and you're dealing with work and you're dealing with stress, a lot of times you don't feel
like boyfriend girlfriend at the end of the day. You don't feel like husband wife at the end of the day, and you need to go back to feeling flirty and good again. And that's why some of these women and men send pictures. They want somebody to tell them, oh my god, you're so hot. You look so hot that maybe after you've been in a relationship for two, five, ten, twenty years, you're not getting that on a regular basis,
so I'm gonna get into more of this. I want to talk about how we communicate both on the front side and the backside to try and avoid this. I'm with Anita Chilpola. She is I hate to say, you're an expert on cheating. You're fascinated by the subject matter, and again I'm not. I it really bothers me on all sides of it and how often I see it. But you know it's none of my business. But we are talking about this. We will be right back after this,
and we are back. Almost every breakdown in a relationship comes down to communication, and people are not being heard. People are not respecting their partners wishes, thoughts, conversations, cries for help when the cheating happens and they come to see you, if they both come to see you willingly, and I'm not.
Sure that's always the case.
They come to you because they want an explanation, they want somebody else to hear them out, They want to repair it.
Is the what is the reason all of those.
Yeah, I mean, if they if they both want to come in, or if they both come in and they both want to make the marriage work, or in a relationship, because not everybody is married. I do work with non married couples as well. Then they want to know how this happened, why it happened, like how do you get to this point? And then healing, rebuilding, and then making the relationship or marriage better than it's ever been. So
those are the kind steps. And I also I have people who come in individually and they're not sure, like either you know, they want to know why they cheated, or they want to know if they should stay with a partner who cheated. And sometimes I do have mixed couples, like I actually just saw one this morning where the husband wants to make the marriage work and the wife is unsure. And sometimes I have couples who come in, well.
Way, was a husband the cheater?
No he was not, Yeah, the wife was yeah. But and even when people don't know, so the other thing is like people don't know what they don't know. I mean, yes, I do specialize and in fidelity, but I've also been a couple's therapists for over eighteen years, and so there's also just typical couple stuff like you mentioned communication, Brian. I started keeping track of this a long time ago. One hundred percent of our couples, every single one of them.
When we ask them in the initial consultation, what is your goal, they'll say communication, like every single one. And sometimes it's like, it's not about communication. Sure, I could give you some skills and tools to help you, but a lot of times what it comes down to is really managing differences in relationships. And even more importantly, and probably the most importantly, is safety and security in a relationship.
And by that I also mean connection. Like a lot of our couples fight about connection and they don't realize that they're doing it, and then they just blow up
their marriages. So when you talk about some of these, you know, even though it's not always the case, if the relationship is a symptom of infidelity, then yes, there's probably some things that could have been fixed, especially connection, because a lot of times people will you know that that disconnection happens and it's not overnight, but it takes years. Like you said, if it's you know, you have kids and you have stressors, then you don't have time for
each other. The last thing you want to do is make love to your partner after a sixteen hour day where the kids are crying and you had vomita on your shirt. You know, people don't feel sexy, and you know, I always look at like, well, what did the affair do for you? Or what did the cheating like? Who were you in this affair? And it's usually they're able to be a way that they aren't in their relationship.
Is it is it easier for a couple to repair it if the cheater is completely remorseful or is it easier to repair it if the cheater is very clear as to why it happened, and then the couple can repair that? Does that make sense?
Well, you have to know, I mean, I'm sorry, it only goes so far, you know.
Right, I mean you want you absolutely have to know. The cheater has to know why they cheated in order to make sure that it doesn't happen again, because then how would the non cheating partner know it wouldn't. And part of my job is to help the person figure out why they did what they did and then close
those loops or those gaps. So for example, like if someone cheats because they didn't feel like they like just say, they weren't getting enough attention, or they didn't feel sexy or desired by their partner, but they didn't speak up,
they avoided conflict. Then my job would be to, yes, teach them the tools or help them, like to communicate to their partner so that they would be able to get their needs met from their partner, or right to have the kind of sex life that they want where they could feel feel sexy, like what does that look like?
Cheating look like?
Cheating's rarely about sex, though, is it. It's more about attension, isn't it. Well, unless you're getting no sex, I think.
I think the popular belief is that cheating is about sex. But sometimes again it does come down to I'm not getting anything at home. So yes, sometimes those are there are cases, but more more so I hear the I
want to feel desired. Yeah, they want attention because you know, if they keep getting rejected at home, I mean the I think am I I'm not even a sex therapist, but in my opinion, sexual rejection is one of the worst to experience because when you I say, do sex right, then it's the most vulnerable that you could be because you're literally naked, you're emotionally naked. You're just so vulnerable.
And then to continue to be rejected. Did buy a partner is probably the most brutal, Like I liken it too. Like let's say financial security is important to a couple and a one partner blows like one thousand dollars, another partner will be pissed, Like they'll definitely be upset, Yeah, but they're not like, oh, I can't believe you did that to me. You know, don't take it as personally, but there's no way to not take sexual rejection, especially if it happens over and over again.
Right then it's like, why are you with me? What are we doing here?
We don't have a compatibility the I'm mixing up my cheater and my cheaty. Here are there times when a couple comes to you without naming any names, that you're like, this cheating by him or her goes so much deeper than what she knows, like that you're like, oh, this is chronic. This is not a one time thing, and you can tell and how do you pull that out?
Yeah? I mean for sure that has happened. And that's when I beg my client to like be honest about the infidelity, because if something gets found out later, it's either going to set the you know, couple back in the recovery process now, and I'm talking about like I mean, if it's and it's also hard for me to say with every situation, like I will split the couple up and talk to the individual and be like, is there
anything that you're not telling me? Because again, it really just depends, like sometimes people just want to get everything off of their chest to feel better, where it might devastate the other person more so, you know, But when I can tell that they're hiding or they're still not being truthful or things aren't making sense, then yes, I
really strongly encourage them to tell the whole truth. And the only thing I can do in those moments is this doesn't make sense to me, and this is why, and point it out because I've had sometimes the non cheating partner was like, thank you for that, because this doesn't make sense to me either. So their gut is telling them the partner is still hiding something and I could definitely see it.
Is there any anything that you do?
I guess this is not your role but to try to ease the pain of the cheated on person or is that not relevant?
The pain should be real?
I don't because a lot of times they're even responding to they're so hurt they can't have a rational conversation about moving forward till they move past the hurt.
Well, I try to tell clients not to make a decision about the relationship for at least six months so that they can allow some of the feelings and the hurt to dissipate. But in the beginning, like, what I really look at is emotional management, because the person who is hurt definitely wants to lash out. I mean, come on right like that, that's what they want to do.
And so I like, I mean, even with the guy this morning when I told him, I mean, I had to give him some like self soothing strategies, some distraction, And I always say, like, you have every right to feel how you feel like and I know I'm asking a lot of you, but you cannot act however you want to act, or if you continue like you don't want to, then become you know, verbally or emotionally abusive towards your partner. Like more hurt isn't going to help
the situation. If you want to walk away, or if walking away is an option, then you want to be able to tell yourself, okay, I did everything and I'm
not going to have any regrets. But if you pile on verbal or emotional abuse, you know you're you're not going to be able to walk away saying all right, I tried everything in a healthy way, and so I know, I know I'm asking a lot of my clients, But being able to manage your emotions, to be able to have productive conversations, and to be able to process everything that happened is really important.
Six months seems like forever for somebody to try and sit there and table that and ask the people to change behavior or like, while you're going through it, you're wondering everything. You're wondering who are they talking to, what are they doing? Like that's the thing. When you lose the trust the most simple gestures, you know, it takes forever to get over that.
Right, Well, well, we're tabling whether or not to stay in the relationship or what they want to do in the relationship. But the whole time, like during that six months, the person who cheated. This is where this is different than typical couple's therapy because it's not as balanced. So the person who cheated has to do more of the work to heal the non cheating partner and so things like you know, I'm sure again I don't know all the details of your situation, but if you wanted to
try to make it work. But one of the key things after disclosure of infidelity is the need for transparency because you don't know, like everything was a lie to the traumatize the brain. Everything was a lot like what am I supposed to know? How am I supposed to know that what you say is true? When you've lied to me so many times? And so I really recommend to the person who cheated max transparency.
So that is well, you don't trust the entire relationship. Was the entire relationship a lie?
Why do yeah? I know?
So it gets back to broken trust? Do women do men? I imagine because I know people who men who have this happened to. Men tend to take it harder than women. A lot of times women are like, you know, he's a man and man have needs and they do that they little bit dismiss it.
Or is that me being.
Sexist and like being being sexist? Okay, what I've what I kind of see is and I think I don't know if there's like research to support this, but I've definitely read it is that men have a harder time with women's sexual affai and women have a harder time with men's emotional affairs. And so, for example, if a woman is sexting with another guy, but let's say the husband or the male partner doesn't get that, like, well, why did he get all that sexy, you know, all
the sex picks and I've forgotten it? Or a woman is like why did he write her love letters? And he didn't write them for me, you know. So it's like the things that they've really wanted for their own relationships or marriages they weren't getting but the partner was dishing it out to somebody else. Is really has been really painful.
I have Yeah, I have had friends of mine, wives, girlfriends. I guess hit on me. I guess over the years because they think and this is not this is not a good indicator. Brian Howie think that I'm sort ofly emotionally neutral, and I will just compliment them and be fun and fine and and tell them they're pretty and
answer the questions and make them laugh and everything. And part of it is a little bit insulting to me that I could just sort of be used in this way, but they're almost like, oh, that guy could be a safe port. He's never been married, he doesn't seem to care. Where there's no risk, there's no downside, And I really I don't like it.
I feel comfortable and I don't.
I reject it, and I always have because I'm always like I would feel so bad if I were that guy, or I would feel so bad, And you never want to be that guy.
You never want to be that girl. You never want to be the one who's.
Feel stupid or everybody else knows about it, but you or everybody else is.
Whispering about it.
So even the intimation to me is like, go work out whatever you got to work out, if you guys got to get divorced or have a conversation.
But I don't want to get involved in this stuff.
Yeah, I mean you may or may not be surprised that how many people end up cheating with like their partner's best friend. So I mean, maybe you just taking us to tell you that these women find you attractive, or we're just pressed in the waters.
I don't even know.
So if it's that they find me attractive, I think they know that I understand women to a certain degree because I care, like I really been fascinated by the subject. You know me, we're friends, Like I really I'll ask an extra question because I really want to know the husband or the boyfriend or whatever. Sometimes they just don't and sometimes they won't care about how she thinks and what she does, Like I will ask anybody strangers, what are you thinking? Why do you thinking? I'm just I
like that. Hence the great love debate, Like I love this subject matter. Now everybody wants to talk about this shit, and sometimes they want to, you know, like when people find out what you it's got to be hard to date a therapist, you know, because yeah, it's impossible because they're like you're they think you're constantly judging them. And back during you know, you know, back in the day, people used to ask me, are you asking me this
because you care about me? Or you asking about this for material for whatever you're doing, And I'm always like a little bit of both.
Yeah.
But here's the thing is going back to the attraction, I'm not necessarily even talking about like physical, but also emotional, which if they feel like you understand them, Yes, a lot of time like this has happened more frequently than maybe people would realize. Is how many times my clients have told me I wasn't even attracted to this person.
But with like you mentioned the coworker, like you spend more time with the coworker, you get to know their personality, or you start becoming vulnerable, you know, then attraction can grow. And that's happened to my clients where they didn't think of someone as a threat because they didn't view them in an attractive way, and then over time, boom, they're having sex in a hotel room.
I know that drives the cheaty, the person who's got cheated on nuts when they're like, oh my god, it's just they didn't like me because that person's not younger, hotter or whatever. It's like, oh my god, they found something in that they're not finding in me, you know. But some people just need an escape mentally. There's I hope she doesn't listen to this podcast, but there's a friend of mine. She's not even a friend of mine, and she's a girl I went out with in college
twenty five years ago, I don't know. And she got married to the guy right after me, right after college, and so she's been married for like twenty something years and she will reach out via email or something every like five years have been like, oh, I remember that time in Boston. We had so much fun, And I'm like, I don't even know what you're talking about. You're like four hundred girlfriends ago, Like, I really don't even know. I would know of you if I fell over you.
But in her place, it's like, what was my life like before I was married and who was in that? And they're kind of that's not a sly cheating, but it is using me in a relationship as an escape from whatever it is, and that with her that's probably been going on like ten years, and it's just a quick email and I just kind of respond. She emotionally is escaping somewhere, which might be healthier than her actually
having an affair. But I'm always like, does this guy know that she does this or does he do it?
I don't know.
Yeah, But here's the thing, Brian. Is you the way that you respond to that, which is it sounds like maybe you quickly respond, but you shoot it down. It's not like you're engaging, right.
I'm answering one of the questions. I'm I'm trying. Yeah, I'm shooting it down. I'm not being like, oh, you.
Look good these days, like I really don't.
But that's how some infidelity happens is that people they might for whatever reason escape could be one of them. Absolutely uh they reach out to an X and I do believe with social media now we have, you know, could start innocently, Oh what are they doing, I wonder what they're up to. Oh they're divorced or they're still single. And then you reach out and then if a person does engage in that behavior, that can get a couple
to tumble down this flope of ending up. She technically would be cheating then you know, not you but like you shoot it down. But can you imagine how many instances this happens around the world where someone does engage in the conversation.
I know, I never want to be that guy.
I don't want some husband mad at me because I emailed his wife back, like I just try and be like, sure, Merry Christmas. That is a thing though social media there's a way to connect with other people. There is I mean, is is a porn addiction considered cheating in the marriage. It is the same thing. Do you treat it the same way?
So well, I am not an addiction especially.
You know what I mean, or a porn habit.
Yeah, no, But well I do have clients who well, I think each couple has to determine for themselves if a porn addiction would be considered cheating. Like I have clients look at what what do you consider cheating and what do you consider to break trust? What do you
consider to be disrespectful? But I do have clients who will say that they like part of the reason why they're either cheating or towing the line and really kind of crossing boundaries that they shouldn't be crossing is because they are highly impulsive and have what they say, an
addictive personality. So I do look at the rewards that they get from whatever behavior they're engaging in and try to kind of re kind of bring that reward down in the hierarchy and try to give them healthier alternatives or even just looking at different looking at their behavior in different ways to see if they could stop doing it.
So I think a pretty good thing is if your partner saw your phone, would there be anything on there that would accept what upset them?
Right? I mean, that's a great guideline. I recommend to my clients you should I in my opinion, I mean, I do believe there people should have a right to privacy. But if you if your partner were to ask for your phone, would you be okay handing it open?
Yeah?
Well, I mean the phone could be some misinterpretation, But I'm just saying mentally, in your own mind, if your partner looked looked at your phone, and would there be anything to upset them? And you can kind of use that as your own guideline, like, oh, that's that, And then you got to think like, Okay, why would it upset them? And what should I do to make sure that I'm not doing anything, even unintentionally that might upset them?
And a lot of you know, I did.
An episode about this a couple of weeks ago about how I think it's okay.
To have a healthy relationship with your exes. I think it's a good thing.
But I also said that your new partner has every right to shut it down if they're not comfortable with it. And if they're not comfortable with it and they express it and then you're doing it anyway, then there's something that you're doing that might accept them and your loyalty, and your obligation is to the new partner. You know, your ex is your ex for a reason didn't work out, right, right?
Right? Two things?
Well, go ahead, Yeah, I mean I would. I would just say again, I know everybody has a different viewpoint around x's which every couple has to negotiate, but I agree because there's a difference. If they truly are just a friend, then it should be one hundred percent. There should be one hundred percent transparency around it.
Yeah, I mean's better than I I want to kill that person, and that's unresolved feelings, all right, in the interest of time, give me two things. One thing is give me either something that somebody can do or a technique that will stop cheating before it starts. And then you're going to give me something that's going to a step that can heal it if it happened.
Does that make sense, Yes.
I mean have a lot for the first of one. Well, one, I always ask my clients in the initial consultation if they have defined cheating prior to the incident or incidences, and so far, zero percent of my couples have said yes. And sometimes I'll get a kind of and that's the problem is that it's a lot easier to minimize behaviors that you're engaging in if there wasn't a clear definition of what cheating is, as you could rationalize in the moment,
this isn't cheating. So I do encourage clients and just people to define cheating both physical and emotional. So the emotional, because it's so gray, gets people kind of stuck a little bit. But I would like, even with physical, what if your partner made out with someone at the bar but they were drunk? Is that cheating? You know, where do you draw the line? Like what would constitute cheating? And emotional as well? It's like when is it just a friendship? And when is when is that ting.
But I was drunk? It's not a total out, but it allows some things. And then you have to deal with the drunk the how often are you drunk? And why are you drunk?
You know?
Yeah, and then for the latter Mary talked about transparency, which is the big one. But because the brain is traumatized, like one absolute necessity for healing is concrete actions that are based on what the uh non cheater needs in
order to heal. And so basically I mean anything from and like I actually wrote a blog like fifty things you have a right to ask for from a cheating partner, and I got some backslash from some people that they're like, this is so controlling, and you know, I mean a lot of it was taken from my clients and things
that we brainstormed to see would this help you? And so I mean sometimes like my clients, if they cheated before work, you know, they would map out how long it would take the partner to get to work, and they would call from the office phone so that the you know, the part the other spouse would know, Okay, they actually are where they say they are, they're at work.
I had one couple where the husband because he cheated at work as well, like when he was at work, he just had his zum on the whole day, and it was very comforting to the wife to be able to see that, you know, he was at a desk or when he went out to launch. He would take photos of his food and make sure to include the hairy arms of his coworkers, so his wife knew that he was with me.
Oh my god, I know.
And then if you have to do that, then I feel like the trust is so broken that I don't know the thing is.
But this isn't forever. That's I think like where people get hung up, it's literally because you don't know. Like trust has been broken. It has been so broken that the person who cheated has to spend a significant amount of time to tell, like to show, not tell, but to show their partner what I say I'm doing, I am doing, So how are you going to do that? Like, Hey, I'm not texting the affair partner, here's my phone. Or
I'm not paying for hookers with cash, here's the check. Yeah, you're going to see how much I get paid in my check through work, so you can see and hear the bank statement. So I'm not withdrawn any cash to pay for massage parlors or hookers in Vegas. Jesus, this is what you have to do, and it's really comforting because as soon as some like some of that stuff doesn't happen, the person gets triggered and then they go
into a tailspin. And that's where you know what you said, that empathy piece, that remorse when you see just how much this has affected the person who has been cheated on, Like if you don't feel remorse, then you're probably a sociopath.
So I was talking to somebody I knew the other day and she was talking about I think she was talking about how she met her second husband, and she goes, I had an affair with him while I was married, And I go, how long did the affair go on? And she goes two years, and I go two years and she goes. The sneaking around over that long made us so close. It was almost like they were bonded in this skullduggery, in this gambit it trying to get around,
And she's like, that was part of event. You know, they didn't work out either, but part of it was that, like they were brought together in this trying to keep it secret, which the whole thing doesn't seem good, but that was her answer, you know.
Yeah, And I don't know if the statistic still stands, but I believe seventy five percent of marriages to the affair partner and in divorce. Oh good, Yeah, yeah, Prisi. Yes, it fuels passion, and you take that relationship and then you put it into the boring routine of everyday life.
Yeah, the fun once the fun of the affair, and this is something new and fresh whatever goes away and you're right back where you started. Then you look at oh my god, what did I blow up in the first place to get here? And then is this a new pattern? Yeah, it's all messy. I'm bringing it up because I see a lot of it, and I see you know you you smacked my hand when I said flippancy about it. But I do see a little bit
of carelessness about it. And maybe that's because I see more of it in the women and a little bit as the rise of the independent women, like I'm going to own my sexuality.
I'm going to be like him, and I'm not getting what I want.
At home and my husband is playing video games and fuck him, and I'm going to get what's mine, And so that has that does look a little bit different to me now. And I think a lot of people got trapped with their spouses and COVID and didn't have sex with for three years, and you know, I don't know.
Yeah, I mean I think part of it is I mean there's I do see more entitlement, but I also think it's what do people expect out of their marriages? Right is I mean marriage has changed over the last one hundred and two hundred years where I mean, now we play so much. We just play so much on our partners to fulfill all of our needs, right, and so it's like, well, if I'm not getting it there,
I'm going to get it somewhere else. And yeah, I would rather just clients or just people have conversations with their partner around marriage or like what are their expectations, what can be met, what cannot be met, and if you need to go outside of the relationship, like let's say even oh, my partner doesn't have all the same interests. Okay, well you could have separate interests. That's great, but just be mindful so that you're not falling into an affair.
A lot of.
Yeah, a lot of people, especially women, get married or go into marriage not caring that it's going to last forever and not even thinking about it or even knowing Like he asked me and I said, yes, so we'll see how it works out. Which when you're going into a relationship that way, that this is not the be all and end all whatever, you are always kind of looking for a side door.
Yeah, I mean that could be also someone's attachment style, you know. I mean I call them safety net affairs where someone isn't exactly sure if the relationship is going to work out, so they want like a backup plan. They need a safety net just in case. But that usually comes from anxiety.
Yeah, there are backup plans, there are escapes, there are distractions, there's all kinds of reasons. Why why people do it? I'm not saying I'm sure it's happened to you. I'm sure it's happened to just about everybody. And it sucks to do it. It sucks to have it be done to. You know, we can justify and try and sweep a out.
Of it under the rug.
But I don't know. Maybe I'm older and more judgmental. Now, just break up? Just break up easier said than done sometimes, but you know, or go.
See Anita, Yeah, come see me. I mean, I know that's the easy or I think that's what society. The feedback that society gives is, well, why wouldn't you just break up? Why wouldn't you just leave? And I just to me, after working with infidelity for over eighteen years, it's not that black and white. And a lot of times people there is enough good stuff in their relationship or their marriage.
I agree.
Yeah, people don't want to see their kids, they don't want to split time with their kids, don't see them every other weekend, and so it's not that easy. I would say if if like I think, you know, if I could, if I could get Another tip is if your partner keeps bringing something up that is really important to them in the relationship, your responsibility is to listen. Yeah, because I guess happened, like I have brought it up.
Nothing's changed, nothing's changed. And so the even though the person didn't cheat, they do have they do have to take responsibility for creating the conditions for the affair happening.
And I think, again, not to defend the cheater, but sometimes I think they might be if I can just have this moment, this vacation, this trip, this trip to Italy, and have sex with two people, will I will get that out of my system and I can go back to being the loving husband, wife whatever. Like, I think that mindset might plan it too. So before you say, like, just break up, they might just be like, I need a break from this and then I can deal with it.
I respect that too, you know, I mean.
Some people they do again, it could be a justification. You know, I look at all the variables, but they feel like they are a better partner if they I mean, and sometimes these might be just for sexy, like if they're getting sex at home, you know, in those instances. I kind of see those sometimes, But yeah, I agree.
All right, How can anybody find you your book? Anything? You want to plug your old book?
Well?
Yeah, and well I'm at Relationship Reality three one two dot com and then my book is on Amazon. First comes us, The Busy Couple's Guide to Lasting Love.
There you go. See, there's hope in there somewhere, I know.
And my instagram is Anita in Love.
All right, Well, it's good to see you.
You look great.
I haven't seen you in a long time, and I hope nobody's offended by me saying that you or anybody listening as far as us like share, follow, Please review this podcas you reviews meing a lot in the podcasting ecosystem.
Check out my other podcast that is All the Rage. It is called Dead to Me.
It is a podcast about estrangement, which also involves a lot of trust issues.
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