Many people try to live like Jesus, thinking that's what makes them right with God. But if Jesus is only our role model, we’re left with an impossible standard. When Jesus is viewed only as a role model, as is often the case in religious settings, His life becomes a crushing burden — not good news. But when we see Him as our substitute and Savior, all of that changes. In this episode we interact with an email we received asking us our thoughts on the extreme legalism that can result from this ki...
Jun 15, 2025•29 min•Ep. 25
Has religion tied you down instead of setting you free? In this episode, we share some of our own experiences in escaping the religious mindset so prevalent in many institutional churches. We talk about the dangers of rigid leadership, legalism, and religious tradition—how they obscure our view of the gospel of grace and the freedom we have in Jesus to be ourselves. Many of us lose our true identity in the institutional church, conforming to man-made rules and expectations instead of walking in ...
Mar 10, 2025•32 min•Ep. 24
In this episode of The Grace Cafe podcast we start out by talking about why we lose friends when we leave the institutional church. Then our conversation turns to an analogy from C.S Lewis' book, The Voyage of the Dawn Treader and Spiderman and Institutional religion's preoccupation with sin. Yes, we're that spiritual! Enjoy! _____________________________ Other places you'll find us: The UnSunday Show Podcast - https://www.unsunday.com Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/unsundayshow/ The Grac...
Feb 10, 2025•30 min•Ep. 23
In this episode of The Grace Cafe, we talk about grace in the midst of suffering in the context of Mike's cancer and his ongoing treatments. In the institutional box church, where one-size-fits-all is the assumed norm, our performance is often a barometer of our spiritual condition. An upward trajectory is assumed. But suffering and not being able to perform reinforces the true nature of grace and the gospel. Namely that one is justified by faith apart from works of any kind, resulting in rest f...
Dec 15, 2024•29 min•Ep. 22
This episode of The Grace Cafe is a conversation from 2018 that Mike had with Mike Kapler of the Growing in Grace podcast. It centers around the content of Mike Kapler's book, Clash Of The Covenants: Escaping Religious Bondage Through The Grace Guarantee. We talked about many topics that often lead to confusion for believers, including the Sermon on the Mount, the Prodigal Son, the Old Covenant, the New Covenant, and more. I'm posting this on both the Grace Cafe and the UnSunday Show . Links we ...
Dec 08, 2024•1 hr 5 min•Ep. 21
In this episode of The Grace Cafe we reached back to episode 50 of the old Grace Cafe podcast to a conversation Susan had with our late friend Nora Shaw. This is an energizing conversation about the freedom Jesus intends for us to experience in all of life. It's a freedom that the one-size-fits-all box church takes away through religious obligation and expectations. What makes this episode dear to us is that Nora has since passed away and is experiencing the fullness of Jesus face-to-face. Enjoy...
Nov 30, 2024•30 min•Ep. 20
I am posting this conversation on The UnSunday Show podcast as well as here. It's a short health update from yours truly. Push play and give it a listen and thank you for following my podcasts! I was recently invited to speak on the Grace at Last podcast with Corinne Kinstler on the subject of women in the church. I would really appreciate it if you would give it a listen as well. My conversations with Corinne are always well-seasoned with grace and this one is no different. It's one I really en...
May 23, 2024•12 min•Ep. 19
Welcome to the Grace Cafe! We're Mike and Susan, AKA, The Husband and Wife Grace Team! In this episode we talk about the dark side of sin management and the sin police in institutional church and religion. _____________________________ Other places you'll find us: The UnSunday Show Podcast - https://www.unsunday.com Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/unsundayshow/ The Grace Cafe YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@GraceCafePodcast The UnSunday Show YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube...
Apr 28, 2024•24 min•Ep. 18
Who are we in Jesus? Is there anything lacking in our new identity in Jesus? Is the cross enough? Are we ever not doing enough? Does God expect more from us? Is God ever disappointed in you? Is there a list of things we need to be doing to earn God's approval? What does it mean to live in a place of rest? What about fear? Is fear of not doing or being enough a valid reaction? Is it ok to set boundaries? Join us as we talk about these topics and more by taking a deep-dive into the New Covenant go...
Mar 31, 2024•45 min•Ep. 17
In this episode of The Grace Cafe, we talk about the Holy Spirit and how religion and the box church give us a version of the Holy Spirit that's more like an angry mobster than a comforter and loving friend. Along the way we talk about some of our experiences with institutional church and church cults. Be sure to check out Jason Gray's awesome video, Remind Me Who I Am, linked below. Enjoy! Jason Gray - Remind Me Who I Am - https://youtu.be/eKyY8zfjBMQ?si=dIEL9FkSn-4i5FLW _______________________...
Mar 24, 2024•27 min•Ep. 16
Our friend Amber joins us in this episode. In her own words, each of us has two stories; a life story and a faith story. Amber shares both of her stories and the breaking points that led to her seeing grace as grace and a return to the simplicity that is in Jesus and the New Covenant gospel of grace. Amber is on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@honorgodsgrace247 Amber is on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/honorgodsgrace/ We hope this episode encourages you in grace! ___________________...
Mar 17, 2024•59 min•Ep. 15
Welcome to The Grace Cafe! In this episode we talk about the freedom we have in Jesus and how this freedom allows us to rest from our own works and effort. But organized church and organized religion redefines freedom and rest to keep us dependent on the system. _____________________________ Other places you'll find us: The UnSunday Show Podcast - https://www.unsunday.com Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/unsundayshow/ The Grace Cafe YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@GraceCafePodcas...
Mar 03, 2024•45 min•Ep. 14
Welcome to episode 13 of the Grace Cafe podcast. This episode is a conversation about how religion and institutional church dilutes grace with performance goals designed to keep the institution alive. There is no rest apart from grace. In religion, the work is never done and there's always more to do. When we come to understand the grace of the New Covenant rightly, we realize the pressure to conform and perform is off and the work is done. Enjoy! _____________________________ Other places you'l...
Feb 11, 2024•36 min•Ep. 13
Welcome to episode 12 of the newly relaunched Grace Cafe Podcast. In this episode we talk about the importance of being rooted and grounded in the grace of the New Covenant. The write of the letter to the Hebrews put it like this: "Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace..." (Hebrews 13:9) Anything that leads us away from grace and attempts to establish our hearts in anything other than New Covenant grace should be viewed as a...
Feb 04, 2024•27 min•Ep. 12
This episode is a look back at our journey out of institutional church. Leaving religion and coming into a better knowledge of grace was a years-long process for us. Being a pastor in a high-performance based church setting finally caused Mike to hit a wall of performance and Susan fell into a deep depression. All of this came to a head for us on early 2009 when we made a final decision to leave. In addition to this episode we will continue to sprinkle bits and pieces of our story in future epis...
Jan 28, 2024•41 min•Ep. 11
Welcome to episode 10 of The Grace Cafe Podcast. In this first episode of 2024 we update you on what's been happening with us, including Mike's recent health scare, a little bit of our back story, and our current dilemma of community and church. Find us online and interact with us at https://www.gracecafepodcast.com Enjoy! _____________________________ Other places you'll find us: The UnSunday Show Podcast - https://www.unsunday.com Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/unsundayshow/ The Grace C...
Jan 21, 2024•30 min•Ep. 10
Welcome to episode 9 of The Grace Cafe podcast. This is a past episode (98) of the old Grace Cafe from New Year's Eve, 2020 that we wanted to share with you. In it, we talk about ways Christianity has weaponized faith and the Bible to enforce conformity. We'll be reaching back from time-to-time and bringing forward one of those old episodes to share with you and this is one of them. Also, Mike was recently interviewed on the Grace at Last podcast. This was a conversation about church and the New...
Oct 18, 2023•39 min•Ep. 9
Complimentarianism and hierarchy are not neutral. They are harmful to the people in it, especially women and children, and they are in opposition to the gospel of New Covenant grace. In this final installment of our series on women in the church, we talk about some of our personal struggles with old patriarchal habits and what it's been like for us since coming out of that system after having spent almost 40 years in it. Feel free to contact us by going to https://www.gracecafepodcast.com/ and u...
Oct 04, 2023•24 min•Ep. 8
We're closing in on the end of our series on women in the church. The topic in this episode is Can Women Be Pastors? One objection to women pastors that is raised by those opposing the idea is that Paul told Timothy an elder (pastor) has to be the husband of one wife. But is male elders what Paul had in mind with that statement or was he addressing polygamy? And why are we (men and women) so obsessed and set on rising to the top of the church hierarchy when Jesus told us there isn't to be one? L...
Sep 20, 2023•33 min•Ep. 7
Welcome to episode 6 of The Grace Cafe Podcast. We're continuing our topic of women in the church and how historically, the church's view of woman has been harmful and abusive. It's not a good track record. In this episode we talk about headship and submission. We use 1 Corinthians 11 and Ephesians 5 as the backdrop for our conversation and why we believe Paul's use of the word "head" (κεφαλὴ) wouldn't have meant authority or leader to the readers of his day. Here are a couple of online articles...
Sep 06, 2023•46 min•Ep. 6
We're continuing with the overall topic we started back in episode 2 of women in the church. More specifically, how the institutional church has weaponized certain verses in the New Covenant scriptures and used them against women without fully considering the historical and cultural context. This has resulted in needlessly silencing half of the body of Christ and opened the door wide for abuse of every kind. In this episode we're going to take a careful look at 1 Corinthians 14:34-40. It's here ...
Aug 23, 2023•31 min•Ep. 5
In this episode we take a look at the historical and cultural context of Paul's first letter to Timothy and specifically, 1 Timothy chapter 2. In giving his reasons for writing this letter to Timothy, Paul instructs him to dispel myths that had arisen in the assembly (1 Timothy 1:3-4). In chapter 2 of his letter we see Paul begin to dismantle some of those myths and those myths centered around the worship of the pagan idol, Artemis. The culture in Ephesus was heavily influenced by the worship of...
Aug 09, 2023•43 min•Ep. 4
Welcome to episode 3 of the recently re-launched Grace Cafe Podcast! In this episode we continue the series we started last time concerning women in the church. This week we start to explore the question, did Paul command women to be silent in church? This episode is a much needed overview of what the New Testament says about women in the body of Christ. We look at several of the clear passages of scripture to lay a good foundation for this topic before jumping into the sometimes not-so-clear wa...
Jul 26, 2023•40 min•Ep. 3
Welcome to episode 2 of The Grace Cafe podcast! In this episode we're launching a multi-part series centered around the topic of women in the church and how church history and tradition have damaged and diminished the way women can function within the body of Christ. We start in this episode by talking about patriarchy and how it has damaged women by taking away their voice and individuality. We share from our personal experiences with patriarchy as we believe so much error has flowed out of thi...
Jul 12, 2023•29 min•Ep. 2
Welcome to episode one of the relaunched Grace Cafe Podcast! In this first episode of The Grace Cafe, we talk about why it was necessary to stop the original Grace Cafe Podcast back in 2019 and how and why this relaunch came to be a reality. Our conversation takes us to a variety of other topics that are woven together throughout this episode. Grab your favorite beverage and listen in! _____________________________ Other places you'll find us: The UnSunday Show Podcast - https://www.unsunday.com...
Jul 02, 2023•29 min•Ep. 1
