Blanche and the Younger Man (Season 1, Episode 9)

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in as fast as 30 minutes all school year long. Get a $0 delivery fee for your first three orders while supplies last. Minimum $10 per order additional term supply. Hi Jennifer Samard. Hi Patrick Hansen. Hi cheesecake. We're already on episode nine, girl. Can you believe it? No, but you know what else I can't believe? We have

the Facebook group. Tell me all about it. So with the Facebook group where we connect with all the cheesecake, we hang out, we share the Golden Girls, I almost said Indigo Girls memes. Do that too. I love them. They're my favorite band of all time. So go ahead and share your Indigo Girls memes, but also like talk about the episodes, make new friends, five people in your community. It's called the Golden Girls Deep Dive Podcast discussion group. And

you should join. And while you're at it, you should follow us on TikTok and Instagram because our social media guy, Aaron, who's like a brilliant social media influencer himself, takes our really funny moments in the booth and turns them into these amazing hilarious viral moments. I can be having the worst day and then I'll get that text and it'll just

cheer me right now. He's so talented. He's so talented. Like he takes a clip from the show, our background is blanches, wallpaper, and blankets, and families, which we do talk about. It's something like the history of it. Yes, we're historians here. That's what we are now. What are we going to not talk? We're historians. We're who are our favorite specialists. We're going to get that. The handles are at Golden Girls Deep Dive on TikTok

and Instagram. So go follow now. She's getting a follow follow. Do that and don't be me who's been listening to Patrick say this and nodding because that's what you should do on a podcast. Just nod. Everyone loves hearing that. The dulcet nods of some art. I'm telling the number of people who look me straight in the face that I'm talking and just like this associate and nod. That's all I need. I see if I can see my enough about Steve and your

love life. My poor disassociated husband. Girl, we're on episode nine. It's called Blanche and the younger man. Yes. And for those of you who don't know what we do here, we recap episodes of the Golden Girls in order starting from the beginning. And also we have a full-time research. Your name, Jess. Yes. Yes. And with his help, you know, we give you little deep dives throughout the recap just to give you that little extra bit of Golden Girls info.

And at the end, we do a fully research deep dive of something from S Patrick with say from the Golden Girls. Patrick, tell the cheesecakes about our super exciting deep dive today. Okay. So this we've never done before. Our deep dive today is an interview with Stan Zimmerman who was a staff writer for season one of the Golden Girls. He came into the studio and sat down in this he and his writing partner Jamesburg wrote this very episode, you know,

Stan sat down with us and he told us some really mind blowing things about the set. Most of them very positive. But I think some of the things are going to shock you. He's also a little like Blanche. I might add because he had to have been 12 when he was a writer. I know. I know. He looks 25 years old. He's so handsome. And I made the mistake of asking him how old he is. And he got mad at me. But I was like, Stan, I'm only asking you because

you were so good looking. What's your secret? Literally. Literally. Wow. But he's amazing. The deep dive was really fun. We're going to do more of these interviews as they become possible to do. I'm so excited to do this interview as our deep dive today. All right. So girl, getting into the episode, give us the details on this episode. It aired November 6th, 1985. It was written by Jamesburg and Stan Zimmerman. Well, look, let's talk about

what was going on in the world that very weak. So this is right from the front page of the New York Times. This was just three days before the airing of this episode. So on November 13th, 1985 in Tulema, Columbia, I'm going to try to say this right. The Nevada, Del Ruiz, Strato, Volcano erupted after 69 years of dormancy and get this, this costed nearby towns completely unprepared, even though Volcanological organizations, which apparently are things,

they are a Volcanological organizations had warned what are you? I'm a Vokanological ologist. I'm a can of, I'm a can of knowledge. Oh, can you fit all this letters on your business card? No, I cannot. I cannot. I cannot. We just said I'm 12. The Volcano erupted after 69 years. But yeah, the Volcanological organizations had warned the government to evacuate the area after they detected volcanic activity too much earlier and they didn't

do it. And it was a huge fucking tragedy. Basically, what I learned was the lava erupting from the volcano. It melted the mountain's glaciers and sent, quote, mud flow landslides into brief flows down its slopes. And it engulfed a town called Amaro where it killed more than 20,000 of its 29,000 inhabitants, making it the fourth deadliest Volcanic event recorded since 1500. This is horrific. And also like the plot of the movie Don't Taste Peak, right?

The Pierce Brosden? Is that the name of it? I don't know, but you, I love that you love all these places. I do. Like late 90s, early 2000s. They used to put me to sleep. I was like, oh, I'm having anxiety. Let me watch people die in a natural disaster. Let me, let me watch an overgrown crocodile fed by Betty White. Anyway, it was a big week in the world this week. It was a big week, culminating with our favorite Saturday night show. Saturday

night. Saturday night. Saturday night show. We open with Sophia sneaking out of the kitchen with popcorn and a Shakutori plate. So wait a second. It's a Saran wrap. Saran wrap, Shakutori plate. What on earth is Sophia doing with a plate of meat and cheese? She does a good job at peaking our curiosity, because we're about to find out. Now Dorothy comes around the corner cutting her off at the past looking lovely after her shoulder implants surgery.

She recovered from that nicely. She really did. Don't see. I have to say, I'm just over here. I thought Dorothy was well appointed this entire show. I've been so hard on her clothes. No, girl. I disagree with you. I'm really hard to do because we're going to see her sitting on the couch in that sweater in a couple of minutes. She completely disappears into the sofa. Wait, the Shmata or the green turtle neck? The Shmata, the one that she's

wearing right now. Before we get there, I actually had to go back for a fourth viewing to try to plot the day and night of it all. And I think I figured it out because the thing that gets us hooked up is this is a week long visit by Alma. So I think I have it, but it is interesting that Dorothy, I swear to God, must be hungover because she is in that when she's when we first see her wearing that, it's not morning. No, well, she's been

lounging all day in her hungover wear. Like because Sophia is wearing a floor length denim night gown with a starched collar. It's the mixing of the patterns. It's very southwestern. She kind of looks like she's going line dancing, but it is a floor length denim night gown. Right. So we don't know is it the morning is it the night? Dorothy comes out in full sweater. So Dorothy stops her with her shoulder implant augmentation surgery.

She's a linebacker that one. Mom, where are you going with all that food? I'm stashing it away from Rose's mother. She's on a special diet. I hate those people. You turn your back for a second boom, boom, your food is gone. Anything on your play is suddenly on their diet. So Dorothy grabs the food and leads them back into the kitchen. I just wanted to say that like this is the era. It's like probably pre-south beach diet, but it's

definitely like the adkins diet. Like and me having been on all of these diets, the slim fat. This was definitely the age of slim fast. Yeah, adkins was later. That was in the 90s. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shake for breakfast and a shake for lunch and then a sensible dinner. And we're going to find out we're getting so ahead of ourselves. I'm excited about it. But like the supplements that Blanche took. I looked at the beam pollen. I'm like,

why the fuck is she taking the beam pollen? But apparently, yeah, but apparently beam pollen helps rev your metabolism. Oh, yeah. Why am I not sucking on honeycomb? Like the next time you see, I'm going to, you're going to be bees in my office. I'm going to have like, I'm going to be in full bee gout fifth farm. Where's Patrick? He's going to be farm. He just drinks the air up there. He's just giving out. Oh my god. So the fiat being an old person is like, no

girl. I know a lot of old people. Come on, Ma. You haven't even met Rose's mother. I know a lot of old people. They're all the same. That cranky. They're demanding. They repeat themselves. They're cranky. It's great writing. It's a great joke. I wrote it here. And it's also great delivery. Now, she's brilliant because she stops after the second. They're cranky to pause to let the audience get it. Right. So they're all the same. They're cranky. They're demanding.

They repeat themselves. They're cranky. They're demanding. So in that gap, the audience starts to laugh. It's like, yeah, that's an experienced Queens Community Theater actress. I was thinking, you know, what I want to do a deep dive on. I want to do a deep dive on finding out the shows that Estelle Getty did in like Queens Public Access Theater because she did them forever and ever. We should like read the reviews. We should do a whole deep dive on that. Oh no, this is

bringing out as Blanche later says in one. Oh, this brings out the artist to me with the version. Like, I want to recreate all of Estelle Getty's plays. Oh my god. You'd that would be like, what a great one woman. She's gonna take it. She had a first to mark as Estelle Getty. That would be perfect. Oh my god. Dorothy is asking her like, my what makes you think she's old? She's the same age as you. So how come she ordered her a wheelchair at the airport, a special meal on the

plane and put an oxygen tank in the garage? Maybe she's a disabled welder on a special diet. I think the most interesting part of this whole scene is actually seeing the second Shakuuta Reboard on the table. Or the, I guess the original Shakuuta Reboard from which the Saranwrapped Shakuuta Replate. I just want to know that like Sophia's meal, prepping for the week is making like five Shakuuta Replates and Saranwrapping them all.

Like a Shakuuta Replate. Yeah. So we jumped to the living room where Blanche is saying goodbye to Dirk. Dirk does not look the single bit heterosexual to me in this. He doesn't, but you know what I'd like to do. I'd like to do these next few lines. Oh, sure. The way they did them. So your left arm Patrick needs to be perched on the door and my right arm. Yeah. And Dirk does natural. Everyone does natural. Whenever we see him, he's wearing like Miami Vice. Put your arm back up.

Let me see that sexiness. Look at me. Yeah. Yeah. Fuck actually turn off the recording. But he's also dressed. Nobody looked straight heterosexual in the 80s because all those men, he was wearing that 80s exercise look. Yes. But they made them wear those headbands. What? Well, I mean, no, I know the leg woman's headbands. We also learned their uniform. It was the uniform. We learned they're coming from a jazzer size class. Not the straightest thing

I've heard today. No, you know, size in 85 was huge. It was actually the highest form of exercise in the country. It generated over $40 million in 1985 in America. Shazzer size, the business is still a thriving business to this day. It is. It's wild. Probably in its heyday. There's always that fat, right? Like you remember Zumba classes and again, the 90s like step aerobics was the thing. It's a kickboxing. Yeah. Walking.

Drinking alcohol. Wait. No, what? But anyway, they're like this at the door. Yeah. Right. And she's like, well, thanks again for the ride home, Dirk. I'll see you Tuesdays, jazz, jazz class. I see you then. Okay. Unless I see you before then. I mean, if you wouldn't mind, maybe we could go out. My Dirk, did I just hear you ask me for a day? Yeah, death. I heard him from here. So late. You think maybe we could have dinner Saturday night?

Well, why don't I just check my datebook and I'll let you know. Let me check my date book and I'll let you know. Well played. I felt very much remember that book, The Rules. Yes, it was very much the rules. You never let I mean, I don't know if this was in there. Don't be too eager. Yes, because like I am an eager beaver. Right. You know what I mean? If I had to go back out of the dating pool, I would fail every single time. Let me tell you. No, it's okay, everyone.

Have we told them yet? I don't know. I'm going through a very painful and unexpected divorce. Oh, that's okay. But you're also like thriving in every other way. Well, every other way. And in this way, this is actually an interesting episode to do. I'm going to take the car here. I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to go off to the side. Please, if this was Jillian, we going here. We're going to pull over exactly. I'm going through a very unexpected divorce after 20 years of marriage.

So I'm sort of Dorothy Sporneck on the one hand, but sort of blanch on the other. Yeah. And I'm thriving. Yes. You're doing. I mean, my God. And I will say this. This is a very interesting episode because I've dated this since I've been separated. I've probably dated three lovely gentlemen. Yeah. And they're all younger than me. Yeah. Well, that's no shock because you look 20 years younger than you are. Oh, thank you. But yeah, but they're like five, 15 and the most recent guy was almost 25

years younger than me. Oh, wow. Of course. Nice. Anyway, she's still got it anyway. By the way, I did a deep dive ish on this guy named Dirk. The actor, his name is Charlie Hill. Interesting guy. He got a PhD in psychology with honors from Auburn University. He works as a psychologist for many years before pursuing an acting career. And he was pretty successful. He did 73 episodes of a TV show called Texas. Not Dallas, but a TV show called Texas. They say he's probably best

remember for playing Dirk on the golden girls. So 73 episodes, I guess we're in that memorable. But he eventually left the business and moved to Jackson Hole, Wyoming, where he served as a Deakin, a lay preacher and a Bible study teacher at the Jackson Hole Baptist Church. And he died on May 23rd, my sister's birthday, 2010. He was pretty young. He was pretty young. And he also, all I'm going to say is he had a lot of family, but he never got married. So I'm just going to

put that out there. That's all I'm going to say. You're a date, Dirk. I kind of want to date her until you'd be like, like, just check my datebook and you know what I can do. Yeah, you know, you know, I'm free. You know what I actually mean? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, what are you doing? Trying? Are we going to date right now? This is her day. This is her day. All right. So Blanche shuts the door. All right. And by the way, every woman I know had that bag in 1985. I had that bag.

Really? Yes, that canvas bag with the leather and it came in all different colors. Yeah, that we used to have it with this thing we called happy skirts. What were those? Those little circle skirts. They were basically happy skirts. Oh my god. All right. If you got a picture of you with a happy skirt, put it in the Facebook group. You know, maybe I'll look. Okay. I bet I do. Okay. But anyway, you know, she turns around and she's like,

well, isn't this an interesting turn of events? Gosh, I just thought, what I'm going to do? You know, he is a little bit younger than I am. So Blanche is so turned over to the couch where Dorothy is sitting and when Blanche says that line about her being a couple years younger than her, Dorothy just like literally does a take to the audience. Classic B. It's a classic B. And it's also I was saying like Dorothy biting her

tongue might be my favorite Dorothy. When you know like there's said that she wants to say something but she's just not going to do it yet. I love that door. That's everywhere in this. Yeah. Yeah, she's very good at that here. So now Rose enters with her mother and Rose is telling her mother to watch her like for a minute one when we see this relationship. Rose is very overprotective. She said mom enters and Rose says, out of girl. Yeah, watch your stepmother. That's a girl.

Like so infantilizing. I know. I know in the mom says I haven't been a little girl since 1912. Right. But they've dressed her like it's 1912. Russian winter 1912. Like when Napoleon invades Miami, Alma will be fine. I was going to say, why am I the only one who's always clocking that it's Miami? She's in Miami 15 layers. She's about to go to Texas. He knows. She's going to Houston. Yeah. Miami and Houston, what do I need to bring? A wool coat. Gloves for sure.

Definitely as many hats as I can fit in this bag. I know. So I'm going to call her Alma. We learn that in a few seconds. But Alma, her mother, is played by actress Jeanette Nolan. Do you want to know some fun facts about her? So she was only 10 years older than Betty White when they filmed this. Oh, wow. They love doing that on this show. Right. She played Lady Macbeth to Orson Wells' Macbeth in that film that he did, which was a terrible film. And it rightly so got pretty bad reviews. No way.

Fortunately, she got bad reviews, but it just wasn't a good film. Wow. But I'm like, okay, credit. But my favorite fact about her is she was one of three women that Alfred Hitchcock hired to voice Norman's mother in psycho. Oh my god. She came into record some screams and to record those couple of lines. And he had all the actresses do it. And the idea was to give Norman's mother this vaguely uncanny and big-y-wiss voice, which emphasized how haunting she sounded in Norman's mind.

If we could just play it here, that would be amazing. You can't hear these three actresses. Because now that I know this actress, I can hear her voice but kind of sort of... Oh, wow. Talk about Alfred Hitchcock's genius. I mean, that is an incredible idea. Totally. Because it is creepy AF. And you don't know why. But now we know why. Oh my god, that's why. They're probably watching me. Well, let them. Let them see what kind of a person I am.

I'm not even gonna sweat that fly. I hope they are watching. They'll see. They'll see and they'll know. And they'll say, she wouldn't even have a fly. This actress, I was so inspired by her. I went and watched the Colombo episode that she's in. Because I know our friend Jillian loves Colombo. So do I. And it was double shock. And she's hilarious. Oh my god. So yeah, she did Lady Macbeth, but this chick can do comedy.

She was very funny. Go watch it. Lady Macbeth, I'd like to see yours. Do you know what? I was witch number three. You were. I loved it. Oh, I bet you did. I was so good. I was so good. Good out of here. Well, this is one of my favorite moments in the episode because they come in. And so Rose is shouting, introducing Blanche Dorothy and Sophia to her mom. I want you all to be my mother. Mrs. Lindstrom. This is Blanche. And this is Dorothy and Sophia.

Very nice to meet you. Tell me how was your trip? It was just fun. Which one of them is hard-earing? I thought that was such a good, like, flexible joke. It was. It was perfect. And of course Rose tells you no one. They co-dependently just didn't want her to have to strain to hear them. But there's nothing wrong with my ears. Yes. Rose not listening at all. Of course there isn't. Now you sit down right here

and I'll fix you a little snack. Now I'm gonna say something controversial. Okay. I do think that Rose is over-parenting her mother in certain moments. And in other moments, I think Rose is fully justified in her concern. We'll get there. Okay. Fair enough. Okay. Okay. Okay. So Blanche asks how long she's gonna be staying. And Rose answers for her. We get it. It's very over-the-top, you know, like, right. And especially Sophia is like, is your name? Mrs. Lindstrom, like, doesn't like that

Rose is sort of talking down to a woman that is the same age as Sophia. I get it. We have another excellent setup for a joke here. Mrs. Lindstrom, how would you like a little tour of our home while Rose is fixing that snack? Oh, I don't think this is a good time for that Blanche mother. She's had a big day and I don't want her to get over tired. Well, she can skip the East Wing Rose. Hey, good writing. It's very good writing. So anyway, they exit to, you know,

infatulize her even more and take a nap. But I was gonna say, like, Elma's putting up a fight about taking a nap. And she's like, I'm not a kid. I'm not a child. I don't need a nap. I'm like, Elma, speak for yourself, girl. Yeah. I mean, I love a nap. So I don't- If you came dressed like it was 1910, when I am an old person, I'm not gonna try to act like I don't love a nap. No, you know what I mean? Listeners Patrick and I had plans to have dinner tonight.

I canceled for XYZ reasons, but tell them what time dinner was dinner was what? Like a five or six thirty or something. But it was right when we're done recording. But I do know I'm going home and you know what I'm doing? Are you gonna go to sleep? I'm gonna go to bed. Of course you are. You wanna know why you're gonna go to bed? Because you are one half of a team carrying like a 19 million dollar musical on your goddamn shoulders. You walked that thing back from Chicago. Okay, so sit

down for five minutes and have some water. Thank you very much. You're welcome. One thing about Sophia in this episode is I want to give her an award for like the New York Accent Award for every time she says the word H-E-R. How did she say it? Yeah, two bad rows won't get off her back. Two bad rows won't get off her back. Now we cut back to Blanche. Who ever since you said in like episode two Blanche answers in full darsish. I know this episode is called Blanche and the

Younger Man. I keep forgetting about that storyline. I do, but it's the A storyline. I know. And that's what I love about it. The B storyline doesn't matter a tick to Blanche. No, it doesn't matter at all. No, all she cares about is herself. And I love it. Like she's nailing it. It's exactly right. Oh god. They're on a completely different topic. You know what I think? You think she's gonna contribute to the conversation? You know what I think? I think I can handle this

relationship with Derrick. I'm going out with him Saturday night. And then door these like was there ever any doubt? And Blanche has the momentarily. This is strictly off the record, but Derrick's nearly five years younger than I. Then what Blanche? Dog ears? It's so, and I just wrote this is utterly iconic. It's one of the great golden girls in Moments of all time. It's so good. And then Blanche goes on to give a long speech about how,

you know, romance and the love of her life was nearly hers. But this is one of those moments where Dorothy knows what's coming. Yeah. And again, we have this great Dorothy Spornak B. Arthur physical comedy moment because Blanche is saying something really special, something fragile and rare. I've only felt this once before. So Dorothy just like jams her head into her own arm. Because when Blanche is telling these stories, she's not telling them to the room. She's telling them to herself.

Exactly. She all she wants to do is relive her past and present glory. Basically B. Arthur and Estelle Getty or their characters, I should say. They do what I used to do in church. When the priests would do the homily, I would fully lay down on my parents' laps and take a nap. It's nap time. Right. Because it's not for you. It's not for me. What the hell sins am I going to confess to five? Listen up sinners. I gotta go. Bad. Exactly. But she continues. It was my 17th summer.

Because we're going behind the cosmetics counter of the Rex L. drugstore. I was stocking the mavelin display when I heard this boon voice say, excuse me ma'am, where are the cuticle scissors? I turned around and there he was. Our eyes locked and for one brief moment there was nobody else on earth but the two of us. Please Blanche, Sydney shelled them tell shorter stories. I know in my heart if I just followed my feelings that day of the Rex L. drugstore today I would be

Mrs. Andy Griffith. Shootable scissors. Oh my gosh. Takes tiny mouth moment to fall asleep. She's so fear false asleep now. So fear was the one saying nobody around here needs a nap two seconds ago. Guess who's exhausted? Well, it's Catholic priest homily time or Blanche, ever. Oh my god. Dorothy says please Blanche. Sydney shelled them tell shorter stories and for you younger listeners, Sydney shelled them was this famous author in the 80s. There's only one famous arse here. Her name is

beer trash. That's right. So author and like Sydney shelled them novels all got turned into movies of the week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's what I love about Sydney I'm just quick detour. Sydney shelled them was over 50 when he detoured into this part of his career. Wow. Writing these romantic novels. He was known for creating heart to heart which is a show I'd love to cover with you. Oh yeah. So good. He won an Oscar for writing the Bachelor in the Bobby Soxor in 1947. Wow. And I didn't know

this about Mr. Sheldon, but he was a writer of Broadway plays in the 1930s. Oh, I think I did not know that which I love. And anyway, like our gals, he was known for writing about determined women who persevere in a tough world run by hostile men. Can I tell you something I learned about? No. Thank you. Good night. Yes, what? Something I learned about Broadway in the 1930s because forever ago when I was looking

up on IBDB, which is the internet Broadway database, it's always auto-cracks to I am every single time. Every time. I was looking at Hamilton for something. There was another Hamilton in the 1930s. It was a play called Hamilton about Alexander Hamilton. All of the women actresses in the play were credited as Mrs. Patrickines. Mrs. Steve Tipton. Like that's how the actresses were credited on IBDB. Oh, with their husband's name. Yes. Is that a while? What about divorces like me? They were

brings at the stake. Oh, wow. So we call them spinsters, Jennifer. Oh, right. So Blanche is saying that like she's not going to make the same mistake with Dirk that she made with Andy. She's not going to miss her chance this time. Right. Right. So Blanche exits in full narcissism. Dorothy asked Sophia, how have we heard this story from her before? And Sophia says, yes, but last time it was Woolworth, a toenail clipper, and John Cameron Swaisy, which we only, thank God for

our researcher who looked up who that was. John Cameron Swaisy was apparently a news commentator and game show panelists in the 40s and 50s. And it's also Patrick Swaisy's six cousin once removed. Yeah. How do you even get that far? I mean, when I heard Swaisy, I was like, oh, must be related to Patrick Swaisy, but they're going to only be one. I was crazy. But I was right. Wrote down like it's wild that we live in on a planet. We're at one

point in time. Right. Being a professional game show panelist was like a real job. Yeah. Like people did that. They did. Like Benny White did that for a while. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So Patrick, we're at the point now where I had my first timeline issue. Oh, okay. So I said, this is what I have written. So I think it's later the same day or late afternoon the next day. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. But it's late afternoon.

Yeah. It's probably the next day, late afternoon. It's what I've said. It's late afternoon. And we can tell because Dorothy's in another night. She's in a foreign the afternoon. Everyone else is fully dressed. But hangover haddy is just, you know, anyway. So there's a woman on TV's yelling inhale good exhale me back and blanches on the floor exercising to a TV and VCR that rivals the bar cart from that episode we did. Yeah. It's like the size of like a trunk,

you know, right in the forefront of the. And I have to say this too, but Eddie Roo's figure looks really good. I got to like describe what she's wearing here. So she's in a workout outfit, right? She's wearing a long sleeve yellow blouse question mark. Yeah. Like a shirt tied up in like around the waist and like the sleeves rolled up over a striped leotard white tights pink knee warmers and white sneakers. It's quite the outfit. And I wrote because Dorothy's laying on the couch

in like a blue and black plaid night gown. Right. Right. Like you cannot tell where the couch begins and Dorothy ends. She is in once again the most shapeless outfit you can imagine. I know you've mentioned that like it's nice to get to wear something like that on a show because it's cold and you want to be comfortable on set. But I'm like, but be everyone else is walking around and close it looks really good on them. And you just are like on in the shapeless nightgowns and sweaters

at all time. Well, the nightgown I do take issue with because I don't understand it at the time of the day. I mean, it's maybe be insisted on it. I don't know. My character would be wearing that way. It's too in the afternoon. Or it's like, or that's her actual nightgown and she was sleeping in her room. She's like, you know what? This is good. Where's the blue and black check? Okay. I'll take that one. But what I was going to say was Blanche is doing this move in this workout where

she's sitting on the floor. She's leaned back in like a 45 degree angle and she's got her feet off the ground. That's a hard move. It's an ab workout. Any room, McLean, a hand is really, she's doing it. Listen, white tides show everything. I know. And how cute are you by the way that you said knee warmers? What are they called? Legs. Legs. Knee warmers. You're adorable. You're the cutest. Yes, but Dorothy is looking at her and the woman in the TV, which is little creepy. But can I,

I wanted to say to Dorothy, like, can you have a little self respect, doc? Like Blanche is a 55 years old working out. Like, I'm not saying you have to work out. I'm not saying that, but I'm saying it's four in the afternoon. You're already asleep on the couch in your nightgown. It's a little sad. It's sort of like the mean jokes that Stan makes better or kind of true. There's a story there. That's the thing. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Dorothy says the only time I get in that position is when

I give birth. Oh, George Blanche is just like, okay, she's like, oh, my back, Dorothy's like, are you all right? And this is where we find out that Blanche is going all out. No pain, no gain. She's feeling the pressure, essentially, of dating this younger man that he is used to a trim body with good tone. Now Blanche looks good, right? She's already looks good. We don't know what day

they went to jazour size and how many days she's got to get herself in shape. But I'm like, Blanche, honey, how much toning do you think you're going to get done in the three days between Tuesday and Saturday? Right. You know what I mean? Either you got it or you don't. We find out later. She's turned back the hands of time. That's a lot indeed. It's so good. Anyway, so Dorothy's making fun of her saying, you know, when they defrost Walt Disney, he'll have someone to go out with. Wait, I did

a little deep dive on this. Lay it on this story. So I had heard this too, like the whole the joke that Walt Disney was cryogenically frozen. It's kind of crazy story. Walt Disney died on December 15, 1966 literally weeks after going to the hospital with neck pain and discovering that he had a very aggressive form of lung cancer that was basically untreatable at that point. So like he like went to

the hospital because his neck hurt. He's dead 34 days later. And they say that like the rumors began almost immediately that he was cryogenically frozen and buried deep under Disneyland, like either under Cinderella's castle or the Pirates of the Caribbean ride. And the speculation has gone on for decades. But members of the Disney family have confirmed that his end of life wishes were to be cremated and that he was cremated two days after his passing, which was just 34 days after he

found the cancer. And his ashes are interned at Forest La Memorial Park in Glendale, California. He's not been cryogenically frozen. I would have bet money that he was. I would have too. Because that's been the lore. It's like common knowledge to me. Yeah. So anyway, it's not true about Walt Disney. But back to the episode, Dorothy is rightfully saying to Blanche, if you feel you've got to go through all of this, like what kind of relationship can you have? Because like, I would

agree with that. She's taking all kinds of pills and supplements and fish oils and whatever. But Blanche says like we have to remember Blanche is a total nurse assessed. And like knows it loves it about herself. She says, I use full relationship, a relationship that I want. Dorothy, Dirk is the youngest man I've ever dated. If I'm going to keep him, I got to give it all I got. Now if you'll excuse me, I got some road work to do. Oh, hi, Blanche, you look terrific. Blanche looks terrible.

Betty White, the comedic assassin that she is. She's like, hey, Blanche, you look terrific. Blanche looks terrible. Wack. Like the black doesn't happen until the end of the sentence. Anything came too soon. If it came like Blanche looks, Blanche, Blanche looks terrible. Blanche looks terrible. That's why it's funny. Rose is really stressed out, you know. She is. But when we get mean Rose, there's something going on. So Dorothy is saying she looks terrible

because all she eats is bee pollen and Rose says, I know. And isn't it ironic that all the bees look so good in that knot? She's not dumb. She's just naive. Right. And I'm with you Patrick, too. Like lately, I've been like, God, she is annoying. Yeah, she's so annoying. And everyone says, I'm a Rose. Well, if everywhere you go, there you are. They hit the problem with you. Dorothy asked her, Rose, what are you doing home? And she tells Dorothy that she came home early to

be with mother and Dorothy. Let's her know. No, no, no, no, my mother took her to the track. Now, we need to pause on this for a minute because as it's been made clear in many, many episodes so far, we're going to learn in like season five that Dorothy had a gambling addiction specifically betting on the horses at the track, right? Right. So like, maybe that's why she's in the night gown. Well, I got it straight. I got it. I got a theory. So Dorothy has this gambling addiction,

which means she can't be going to the track because presumably she's working her program. You know what I mean? She's at home working the program. But I think it's kind of in like if I'm with a friend who's in AA, I'm not drinking in front of that person. But Sophia is always going to the track. Well, I wonder if maybe Sophia has a problem, but just hasn't maybe maybe or maybe she doesn't, but she can handle it.

She can handle it exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So Rose is scandalized by this revelation that her mom is at the track with Sophia, but she's not like all that worked up yet. And Dorothy is like, girl, she's fine. She's with my mother. And Rose is like, yeah, but your mother is different. Like my mother's had a very simple life. And like Rose is saying it's past dark. My mother is out. She's worried. And Dorothy is trying to be like, you're overreacting. I am totally on Rose's side.

I am too. But the other strange thing about this, it's getting dark, but gosh darn it. They love their orange juice as a late day cocktail. They go into the kitchen. I know. I know. They get glasses. And they just they just start drinking or they pour themselves some sponsorless orange juice. Can we make it a screwdriver? I know. I know. Okay. I know. Yeah, you're on Rose's side. I'm with Rose's side. Like the moms, these two 80 year old women are at the track by themselves in downtown Miami

where it's getting dark out. I'm like, right. Does everyone else hate their mom? You know what I mean? Like, do me and Rose, the only two people that are like, I don't think that would be where I would want my mom to be. Right. And when you think about where we started with Sophia can't control her what she says because of her own health issues. I mean, we're trusting her enough a lot. Yeah. I'm just saying I'm with Rose on this one. Okay. Okay. So we hear Sophia's voice from the

other room. Hello. Hello. And Rose is, oh, mother, are you all right? And Sophia's like, she's fine. I'm 50 bucks in the hole. Look Rose, I won $400. I told you she was all right. Congratulations, Alma. Mom, I'll be in the living room. In case you decide to explain where you got the 50 dollars that you just lost. You know, I think about this all the time because we're going to learn that Dorothy has a really rich sister, Gloria. I think it's her name. She's coming up. I think she's coming

up. But it's kind of like why is Sophia living with Dorothy, who's a substitute teacher? Clearly has no money. And Gloria is not at least sending an allowance to Sophia. And so she's got to be stealing money out of Dorothy's purse. Like 50 bucks is a lot of money. So Alma, the $400 winner asks Sophia how late the mall is open because she wants to quote go get wild. She offers to buy Sophia some of that bikini underwear. Sophia having tried the bikini underwear doesn't like it. She doesn't ride

up on her. So that leaves Rose and her mom in the kitchen. And of course we still have hovering Rose doing her thing. Yeah. And you know, and Alma's kind of had it. I don't want a cup of tea. I want to go out and have fun. Mother, you know how you get when you get tired. You're liable to lose your balance and break a hip. That's exactly how it happened the last time. Rosie, I broke my hip, I'm skating. Do you want to go back to the hospital? Did you have fun the last time? I had more fun

than I'm having here with you. Mother, stop mothering me. You make me sorry, I can't. She's like, listen, stop mothering me. You make me sorry that I came. Listen, I want to take a little G-tor here to talk about Alma a bit. Yeah. And the word robin. Oh sure. So, please. So whether it's Alma or Sophia, there's this thing where they always dress the old ladies to look like what they think old ladies look like. And it just doesn't work that way anymore. Or like what old ladies

dressed like that you're these ladies were born. Correct. You know, because so specifically, I want to talk about the pill box hats and the cameos. Because we've seen Sophia wear cameo in other episodes. What's a cameo? It's a brooch. It's a brooch with like a bust of a woman usually on it. So a pill hat, it's a small, rimless female hat with a round or cylindrical crown oval or round. And it's English name pill box. It's because of that because of the resemblance to small

boxes in which pills were once sold, like as literal as it sounds. Yeah. This is weird. One of the prototypes of the pill box hat can be considered the headdress of the rulers of ancient Rome. Now, it's believed that the female version of the pill hat was invented in the 30s for actress Gertogarbo. Oh, wow. And the popularity of those hats peaked in the 1960s with Jacqueline

Kennedy and assets. Of course. All right. So now, cameos, these were very popular in the Victorian era through the early 1950s with many pieces being classified as morning jewelry and morning MOUR energy. Cameos with flowers adorning a woman's dress were popular during the 1920s through the 1950s and the majority of cameos face right. So if you find a left facing cameo, meaning the woman's face to the left, it's considered more unusual. And I looked closely and it looks like almas is

the traditional cameo facing right. Oh, wow. I did find that interesting. Yeah. And I was thinking back to like, okay, so this is the 1980s. And then in the 50s, alma was probably the age that rose is now, you know, and that's the 50s. So 20s, 30s, 40s, she would have been 30, 40, 50 years old for cameos. And then the pill box hats, those were really popular in the 60s. So it's just funny to me that costume designers pulled these things as indicative of age. It is interesting

because which she probably would be wearing something similar to what rose is wearing. Like she would just be wearing normal clothes. So I don't know, this is going to be a long episode, but I found that very interesting. Yeah, that is very interesting. I love that later that night on our timeline, the timeline. And I'll start you off Patrick, if you want. But I said later that night, and I must say,

I love Dorothy's green calnex weather. I know. I've got a costume note here as well because Rose is looking out the door for her mother. She's changed her dress. She didn't change into like a house dress or a night gown. She just changed into another business dress. And she came home early. Yep. And she's had a few jobs on this show. I can't keep it straight where she works. I can't wait. We haven't even gotten to in re-cameos yet.

But she was wearing like a really cute fitted red dress when she came home from work. And now she's wearing that like cool like blue with the pink belt or whatever. But like it's the same night. It's though she spilled something on her dress and had to change. No, she's cakes. When I said I had to go

back and watch the episode strictly for timeline. This is why I know I know I was so confused. So we find out that having been scolded by her mother Rose allowed her mom and Sophia to go out shopping at the mall. And now she's like waiting for them to come back. And Sophia now enters wearing a cameo so we know she's old. Yes. Anyway, oh Sophia, thank goodness your home. Where's mother? And Sophia tells her it looks she was feeling lucky. So she wanted to try her hand at highlight. Do you

know what that is? Yeah, it's that tennis rackets that look like bananas. Okay, so I looked it up and I was like I thought it was like a gambling game. No, it's a racket ball. It's a racket ball. It's like tennis rackets that look like bananas. My thing is like where is this 80 year old woman going to find a partner to play highlight this racket ball game? You know the game that's all the rage now. It's pickle ball. Yeah, like Rose is upset because her older mother is now roaming out completely

foreign city. Yeah. This is before cell phones. Everyone's like Rose you're being crazy. I'm like Dorothy's like why did you go with her? I'm like you guys all hate your mother. Like Rose is absolutely right to be concerned about this. Sophia, you left my mother alone roaming through a strange city. Who's roaming? She has a bus map $400 and a Spanish English dictionary. I can't believe my mother's out riding around on a smelly old bus being pushed around her

wrist possibly even mugged by hostile teenagers with bad haircuts. I wrote am I insane or is this like totally valid for her to be afraid that her mother's going to get killed? No, you're not insane and like how about a phone call home saying hey even though she's a grown up. You're right. It just would have been the polite thing to do. An 80 year old woman roaming in a city looking for somebody to play a very dangerous sporting game with her absolutely not. Maybe if it was Dorothy

with her but yeah, still getting is her peer. There's the same age in this. But she's like a lone she doesn't know how to get home. There's no GPS. Right, but they're grown women like I do get it. It wouldn't be better in my estimation. I wouldn't feel safer if she were an 80 year old man. It's like it's all terrifying to me. You know, I'm just saying I'm on Rose's side. Okay. So the phone rings and Rose answers it. It's the police. Rose is screaming and she like turns to the room because

she had been told earlier like Dorothy's like your mother is a vital active woman. Like don't worry about it. And Rose is like they picked up my vital active mother. She was lost and disoriented. What do you say to that? I'm not calm down Rose. I'm gonna go with you. No thing. She's been quite enough help already. No thanks. You've been quite enough help already. Like it really the way she said it was like it's that whole like I'm not so much angry as I am

disappointed. It's like it's even worse because she's kind of nice about she's assertive. Yeah, she didn't lose her head. I know. Imagine it was the other way around and this was Dorothy's line about her mother. She'd be turning over the couch. I was looking back at one of the episodes. We did well the one where with the bar card where she thinks Blanche is. Oh yeah. Stealing her Dr. Elliott Clayton. She'd be leaning over her with her finger in her face. You're slut Rose.

You know why? So Dorothy says, well, I hope Alma's all right. And Sophia with a great French manicure says don't worry about Alma. She's a tough old broad. You know what? No, I have your what? I said, I don't know. I'm worried about Alma. I understand, but you know, you don't have to worry much longer. I know. Why? Because thank God our A storyline with narcissistic blanches. I wrote Blanche answers in full narcissism. I once again forgot about the storyline. I'm very

invested in Alma's safety. I know. And she is oblivious to all of this and her delivery. Eddie Rue, go ahead and hand. Who I am. Oh God. She's like, she's like, Dorothy. Look at me. Look at me. Alright, look at me. I have turned back the hands of time. Since Dirk asked me out, I've dropped 10 years. My face is smooth. My body is taught and my gaze is grinding. Blanche, with a full face of makeup and a dress that looks like it came right off the curtain rods has never looked older.

She's never looked older. She thinks she looks so good. She looks, she's aged herself with clown makeup and a curtain dress. Patrick, look at me. Look at me. Patrick, turn back the hands of time. Since Dirk is holding, we can only guess is the bee pollen. She's got a jar of one of the supplements. I've dropped 10 years. My face is smooth. My body is taught and my gaze is grinding. I just wrote, I completely forgot about the storyline. Yeah. So Dorothy,

each other, yeah, yeah, great, but you're still your age. Yes. So the doorbell rings and of course it's Dirk and Blanche is going on and on about how what he sees when he looks at her and how it makes her feel. Anyway, and here is my favorite line of the episode. Okay, this is good. So Blanche is goodness. I didn't even

have time to put on my makeup. Very funny. Yes. And we get a reaction from Dorothy, a face reaction. But this is my favorite line in the episode because it's not supposed to be a laugh line, but it's so smart. She says, would you mind waiting out in the van, Dirk? She's cake. I love that the writers have Dirk driving a van. Such great character. You know, no, you're right. Like Dirk taken Blanche on the beach. Totally. They're going to have sex in the back of the van. Totally. Totally. Totally.

Probably lives in the van. Yes. He's that he that's where he like learned all of his jazz or size routines. But of like all the vehicles. I know. Of course it's it has to be a van. It's perfect. It's the mystery machine of it all. I haven't been my. You're absolutely right. Blanche asked Dirk to wait in the van. Oh my god. I know. She didn't comment on it at all. That's why I was like, would you mind waiting out in the van?

I'll be with you in just a minute. Well, wait, speaking of character development. So Blanche and Dirk go off on their date next scene. Dorothy is in the kitchen laying on the floor fixing the sink. And I said, of course, she's the live in plumber. Of course she is. But also all I said, you're all I said, though Patrick here was pleased, Dorothy put on one of those aprons that the million aprons in the house to protect your good halenak. That's actually a pretty sweater. I know, but there she is

doing her. I know. Because of course, I'm like, of course, of course. I'm right now imagining her plunging a toilet. That would save her 75 dollars. A lot of those bitches are dumping. I rode, we get like 15 episodes where they need a new roof. You know Dorothy knows how to do it. And I take out the garbage. I mean, yes, you know, why are you getting that guy to do the new roof when Dorothy knows she was born to lay the new roof? But with those made hooks, I'm just

every every show. I was going to quote all of the lines anyway. Anyway, Dorothy's saying, you know, her mom's like, you know, what are you doing? She's like, listen, I don't want to come out yet. It's the only piece in quiet I've had in two days. And she's like blanch is becoming Peter Pan. Rose is turning into mommy, Dearest. So, you know, we get that yellow scene. We're back in the living room. Rose and Alma are back. They're back from the police station. So I love that like,

Rose would get her mom at the police station and Dorothy's like, you know what? This is the perfect time for me to fix the sink. Anybody know where they're wrenching us. And so he is holding it. It's the size of her femur. Because I imagine that Sophia just like pulls it out of her purse. She's got to be there. They were totally safe. Sophia would have wrenched a guy to death on the street if they come after them. But you know what? Rose didn't want me to come to the police station.

I'm going to make good use of my time. I'm going to fix the sink finally. They've been asking your all set. Please in quiet. All right. So all my, okay, they're back from the police station. Alma is very upset. She's saying the cops had no right to take her in. She was just, she waved down the cops asking for directions and they forced her into the cart. And then she says and Rose, you had the audacity to scold your mother in front of everybody at the police station.

And I was like, well, shit Rose, if you did that, that really isn't cool. Well, yeah. You know, what I mean? She's your mother. You cannot take away from people. This one thing. You cannot take away people's dignity. Jerk is about to do it at the restaurant. In the ship bag, yes, wave hospital. We'll get her two seconds. So Alma's upset and Rose is saying mother, there's no point in talking to you when you're like this, which by the way, is the most condescending thing you could say to somebody.

I mean, I don't know. I keep, I'm going to do that with you from now on. Patrick, there's no point in talking. I can't believe I'm with a bunch of her own daughter right in the face. I have this tick too when people, it's a knee jerk response people have. They don't mean anything by it. But like, if you trip or something, they go, oh, be careful. You're like, I know, I know, I know, I have two triggers. Jillian Pensavale will tell you what they both are because like we travel together a lot.

And she sees it never one time, never in the history of this planet has an adult human being had untied shoes and not known it never once. It has never happened. Not in the history of the world. You never, ever need to tell a grown human being that their shoes are untied. They know that their shoes are untied. That's number one. Number two, if I'm walking around with a backpack and the backpack is open, I also know that. I don't even don't tell me that. Patrick, there's no use talking to

you. When everyone is imagining when they tell you that your shoe is untied, is that it's going to get stuck in the escalator at the top. Right. And it's going to rip your foot off. Death is on the other side of that untied shoe lace. Never tell, please, please. Don't ever tell me that my shoes are untied. Or that your backpacks and don't like these things are

they make me core. No, Ted got it. So Rose says that to her mother. And she says, mother, I'll just talk to you in the morning and almost as I won't be here in the morning, I'm leaving early for Houston. So, Sophia says, I'm going to help her. I'm going to help her pack. Yes. Then I'll see if I can win some of that 400 from her before she leaves. Right. So Rose and Dorothy are alone in the living room. And Dorothy wants to talk to Rose daughter to daughter daughter daughter. And by the way,

she's been writing something with a pencil at this point. Dorothy has to be in the living room. They're very short. So I was well, I was going to tell you, but I didn't want to. I didn't know if that was too close to shoe lace. I didn't know if that was too close to shoe lace. You can say anything. Okay, great. I don't know if it was this senior the last name, but I was trying to see what, you know, because you're led to believe it's either correcting papers or it's her studying French.

Or now I'm thinking she's actually trying to figure out handicap racing on the right. That's all I've got. Oh my god, you're right. Yeah. It's slipping back in because we know she's going to fall off the wagon. Yeah, she's going for that trifecta. She's going for the trifecta. Anyway, but she's like, honey, honey, can I talk to you as one daughter to another? Do you remember way back when we were teenagers? What was the one thing that we wanted most from our mothers training, bro?

Honey, the thing we wanted most was to be treated as adults, but then as we get older, we turn right around and start treating our mothers like little girls. Honey, all your mother wants to do is be treated like a woman. Is that asking too much? And this is a very good speech because it's true. It happens. Yeah. You start to infantilize your parents. You know, whose parents loved being infantilized? Mine. Oh yeah. My mother, when she reached the age where she could justifiably

never get out of her rocking chair again, she enjoyed every moment of it. Yeah, I have to say, I think I started that in my 30s. I was doing spelling bee with my friend James Monroe Eibelhart. You know, he was the host of TCO on Broadway. He was our embassy. Oh my gosh, well, we shouldn't have him here. Yeah, one million. We love him. We made our debut together on Broadway, but we used to laugh because we used to have dinner together in our green room almost every two-show day.

It just became a running gag where we like James threw out my trash. I didn't want to get out of the couch. And then we'd laugh and then he'd be doing his own thing. And if I was like, if I wasn't getting enough attention, full-blanched Evoro and he just burst out laughing, I was like, pay attention. And he would, but I was not, because I'm sorry. Yes, he was my show has been. Yeah, yeah, of course. He's the best. He is the best. So we're back in the bedroom and

Sophia is still gambling. But she's getting beat by Alma. And I love to know that Sophia can lose her cards. Remember, like the episode with Dorothy, where she would like Dorothy would throw a T cup across the room or whatever. It's like, Alma is really good. We're gonna learn why, but Alma's really good at cards. And Sophia's not as good. She keeps beating Sophia. That's good for her. Yeah, that's good for her. So Rose comes in as Sophia leaves and Rose sits down with her mom and

basically says, I know I drive you crazy, but it's just because I love you so much. You know, after daddy died, I just thought I'd never get over it. And Charlie, well, there's not a day goes by that I don't think about him. And now that you're getting older, I'm afraid I'm going to lose you too. I understand, Rosie, but stopping me from living isn't going to stop me from dying. You know what? That kind of took my breath away, that might. I mean, I lost my mother. Yeah.

And we've talked about that in this. And now's probably a good time to say this very soon after this episode that he lost her mother, but even more poignantly about three days, maybe before they filmed this episode, be Arthur lost her mother. Yeah. And they're about to have a very beautiful scene in the kitchen. And you can kind of see be Arthur choking up when it's still a compliments there is being good. I'm going to cry just being good daughter. Oh, I know. Did you get that here?

Real tears. You're getting that tone of this here. Whether it's in here or whether there's a couple blocks away. And I can cry and laugh at the same time. I can stop it and let you cry. Anyway. Oh my god. It's a gift you give to all of us. Oh my god. I should do it all. Oh my god. But yeah, but it's really quite beautiful. These are real women like all of us, real human beings who have families and lives and pain and mourning and it's also to channel it through their art. Because

they also have jobs. So like her mother died three days ago in real life. And she had to come to work and do you okay? Girl. I am. No, I love you. No, I told you we've been through this. Like this was my mom's and I show. Yeah. Yeah. Which is this is a beautiful gift for me. I feel like a lot of the cheesecakes feel that way. You know, name me. Every person I met that I've been talking to about this podcast. They're like I watched it every episode of my mom or my grandma. Well,

that makes me so happy. Yeah. So yeah. Make me a channel. Love your piece. All right. So we're back in the kitchen with Dorothy and Sophia. Sophia's sitting in the table and Dorothy is telling her to be careful with her. It's Dorothy's best China. Really ugly. I actually thought it was really nice. I kind of let my lights out because it looked like blanches. You know what? Paper. Why am I so bitchy? I'm gonna take it back. No, no, no, no, no, no, keep it. That is so funny.

You know, it's taste. I like the China. That's like just a nice silver rim. Yeah. I like a very clean. Like a pottery barn kind of sound. No, no, no, like I want to go fuck myself. Why don't you go fuck yourself? That's okay with everybody. No, just a nice clean. I'll talk about the China. Nice white bone china with just a nice silver rim can be used for any holiday. I was trying to mansplain the kind of China that you liked right to you right to your face. So what kind of you

like they want in this show, which is just covered in floral. You know why? Lesbian. And I love Lesbian. But Dorothy is saying you got it for me for my wedding. Don't you remember? And Sophia says, how can I forget? I dragged it all the way over here for you consistently so you could only do what going to get divorced on me. I should have got to use something returnable like a donkey. Samard, I'm not even looking at my notes. I just know the speech. But listen, I know the speech

because it's stung me like like one of those bees that you're now keeping out there. I will suck the life out of any bee if it loses me 15 calories. And then of course it gets point on a very special golden girl. She's the daughter of these like, you know, I've eaten through a lot of great times on these plates. Yes. And you know, this is what we're talking about. Sophia says, with all my hair, I've been thinking a lot about the two of us. Tell what you mean?

The one thing you never do is treat me like an old lady. You treat me like a person. I appreciate that. You're a good daughter, Dorothy. I'm overwhelmed. I don't know what to say. I'll tell you what you could say. You could say, I don't know you're the 50 dollars. My you are a crazy lady. No, I love you. I love you. I love you too, pussy cat. Right now, you know, Be Arthur and Estelle Gettie have a moment where Dorothy is just like,

my love, I love you. I love you. I love you. I love you. Yeah. You know, but you're crazy. And so, I love you too, pussy cat. And it's very genuine because you know, if you think about it, they haven't known each other that long in real life. And I'm sure Estelle Gettie probably knew what was going on with her. How do you handle that as an actor in that moment? It depends. You know, there's a school that you don't bring your stuff to work and depends on the relationship

you have with the people. Yeah. If I'm very good friends with some people, I'll probably tell them. I will say I won't say who, but I had an actor that I worked with. Tell me, listen, I didn't get a lot of sleep last night. And when I don't get enough sleep, sometimes I cry. Oh, wow. You might see me just start to cry. And it's just because I'm tired, but nothing's wrong. And I so appreciated the warning because what they were doing was taking care of themselves. Yeah.

And be taken care of me by letting me know that it was there was nothing really wrong, but it just might happen because they were fatigued. Was it like in a comedy or was it in a show that I was doing? Yeah. And I really respect that. I also know Faith Prince is one of my dearest friends. And we did disaster together. And even if you don't tell anybody, I ascribe to what Faith teaches, which is use on stage wherever you are that day. The more you try to

stuff it or hide it, the more you're doing it self-adgressive. So I'm not saying do anything that the audience could see is different. Yeah. But you can just let it inform your character so that you're using your humanity. Yes. Which is different from day to day. Yeah. Because health is different. Emotional triggers are different. Yeah. So I'm always like, listen, if I can't be there for you,

I'll let you know. But I'm like, please bring who you are. So now we're at that. Like look, as much as I keep forgetting about this storyline, which I just did again, we are after restaurant with Blash and Turk. And I. Oh, so good. Okay. It's so good. So not only are they, they're doing all done this. I mean, not only are they not sitting across from each other. They're like shoulder to shoulder at the table. This is the scene where I'm waiting for you to tell her that

he's gay. Right. This is not what's happening. No. So any room a clan I had playing herself, if ever there was a moment order, do you want me to order it? Like, please, hmm, waiter comes over to this. Yes. I believe I will have the escago and the duck all the time. And a nice tall salad with the blue cheese dress. Now I said, kind of a heavy meal, Blash, right? Like, Dirk orders the watercress salad with two lemon wedges, like a son of a bitch. And Blash is.

Oh, that sounds great. I didn't even see that on my menu. I have the same thing. That is because she might as well say, oh, that is the dickiest move. And ever I've seen, like, like to order the watercress salad with two slice of the lemon. Like, I love this scene because, like, this guy's such a dick. And it didn't go where I was thinking he was going that he was going to confess his love for the other guy in the jazz or size class or whatever. But I also love this

scene because of how Blanche rebounds at the end will get there. We'll get there. Why don't we just say what happens here? So Blanche is looking around the atmosphere. So isn't this a lovely place in Dirk agrees? And she's like, it's one of my favorite restaurants. Yes. Dirk says to the contrary, he's into macrobiotics himself. And of course, she's like, I don't know what that is. I'm too. She's like, I just like this atmosphere. Yes. I said, Dirk, throw her a fucking bone girl.

Right. Right. And so she's trying to keep the conversation moving. So she says, so what did you do before you got into teaching aerobics? Yeah. And Dirk says, I worked in a museum to which she's so thrilled because she works at a museum. Because when you do find that one moment of common ground on like a first date, you're like, okay, we're off the running. And that's one thing I love from

the get. How experienced she is and smooth she is at dating. She's very good at it. And honestly, when you're on a date like this, we've all been on it where like the two people are not equally putting in the same amount of effort to make the conversation happen. It's also showing the age difference. It's like, he's just a kid. He doesn't know how to behave. And she's the adult being like, well, we're going to be here for 90 minutes. We may as well figure out something

to talk about. So she says, you know, I love art. And he agrees. He says me too. I love lifting it. Wow. Which point he bends over from his seated position and picks up the table. He picks it up, saying that he used to unload the trucks of art and that lifting those statues really helped develop his deltoid. And she's like, fascinating. I put that down, honey. And then she says, okay, so have you read any good books lately? Yes. And he says he read pumping iron. That's the Arnold

Schwarzenegger book. What they turned into a movie. And he didn't think the movie did the book justice. The latch goes right. How could it? Right. And then he compliments her. He says, you know, I really like being with you. Yes. Thank you, Duke. I like the way you sound and the way you look. Why thank you, Duke. This is why she's here. This is what she's here. That's right. And then he lays in honor. You remind me of my mother. She lives in Seattle and I haven't seen her for about three years.

But when I'm with you, I kind of feel like I'm home with mom. This takes the wind out of the audience's sales. You hear the audible. And let me pause before we continue. Yeah. The reason why I have after he says, she says, you're kidding me. I work in a museum. I love art. He says me too. I love lifting it. Yeah. I see. He's to lift it up. So at this point, she's humiliated and she says, wait up. 86, the water. Chris. I'll have the orange duck and the double jackdangles on the rocks.

My kind of girl plan. Absolutely. My kind of recovery. You eat that S-cargo. You have that double bourbon while he's eating his watercress in the lemon. And you and I both looked up like where 86 came from. Well, I didn't look it up. I've always been told because I worked in restaurants for so long. The term to 86, which means like we're out of something came from the bar. Chumley, which was

a speakeasy down on Bedford Street and the address was 86 Bedford Street. So during prohibition when the cops were raiding the place, they would yell 86 86 86, meaning temperature drinks and get out. Because the article I found and I have to credit is a gentleman, George Mahay. He wrote this in St. Louis Mag. Oh, calm in August of 2019. And I'm just going to skip to the end. The first thing he says is, so if anyone asked you where the term 86 originated, tell them what I tell people. I don't

really know, but there are about 86 theories. Oh, did you want to hear some of that? Yeah, yeah. He was told this that the standard height of a door frame was eight feet six inches and one in a obnoxious guess was shown the door at a bar. He was quote 86. Oh, that pacified him until he later heard that it took 86 ladles to empty a pot of soup on an army mess line. Ha, after that number of ladles, the soup was 86. Yeah. Then he did some research and realized the genesis of the

term wasn't clear. There was another soup pot reference that they say that the term originated in soup kitchens of the Great Depression, where the standard pot held 85 cups of soup. Ha, so the 86th person was out of luck. Interesting. Many say the term has military roots. The term originated during the Korean War of reference to the F 86 fighter jet. When an F 86 shot down in any plane, it was quote 86. Let's see, the United States also had a uniform code of military justice

that has an article 86 a wall absence without leave a K a wall. The term was derived from military shorthand rotary phones had T on the eight key and oh, on the six key, so to throw out someone was to 86 them or 86. It goes on and on. It could have been a bartender's term. A alcohol in the old west was 100 proof. When a patient would get too drunk, the barkeep would serve him a less potent 86 proof liquor. Oh my god. I mean, you could just go on and on. Oh, and here you go.

Perhaps it's origin lies in New York. Many stories back this up. There was a speakeasy bar 86 bed for street and Greenwich Village called chumlies with no address on the door and several hidden exits when the heat showed up. Guess we're known to 86 it or remove themselves from the premises immediately. Just go on. Go read it. Go read it. It's fascinating. So we're back in the kitchen. Rose and Doris. He are doing the dishes. Alma and Sophia are playing cards. Sophia keeps losing.

Alma gets up to go to bed. But before she does, she wants to cash out. She's like, I've got 30 pretzels. They're each worth a dollar. Sophia takes both fists and pounds the table. It says, now you have pretzel dust and Doris says, Ma, don't be a sore loser. You owe us $30. I love this. Sophia goes, you're absolutely right, Doris. The ice stand corrected. Pay her. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the new call. Pay her. It should be noted too because we've talked fashion so much

that Alma's wearing a shawl. And they've seen another trope, another old lady trope. And I looked it up and they said at the beginning of the century, shals were a necessity in a fashionable woman's wardrobe because dresses were thin and it was a sign of gentility. Oh my gosh. So, yeah. Please. Anyway, so they're wondering where blanches, how her date's going. They're getting a little worried and Rose starts to say how she's not really comfortable with her dating younger man.

And we find out that Dorothy is not terribly concerned because, you know, she dated a younger man. I don't feel comfortable with her dating a younger man. Oh, I'm not concerned about her dating a younger man. It's just that her expectations are so high. You mean you were a pro? Why not? I mean, what's so terrible? I did it once. You. You dated a younger man? Yes, Rose. Of course it was before I had the hump on my back. Alma then goes on to tell us about her three years with a younger man.

And I wrote here, get in me back. Because I think that this is news to Rose. It is. So what we learn, like Alma says, she, her three years with a younger man, where something happens in her life, Rose screams mother and Alma tells this story that after Rose's father died and the kids moved out, there was just a way she could handle the house on her own. So she hired a young farmhand and I wrote, is it just me? Or is it getting hot in here, Alma? Oh,

yeah. So Alma saying he was such a nice young man. He raved about my cooking. I guess they didn't treat him very well in prison. And the timing of that joke is just perfectly done. The look on Rose's face. Like, Alma's got a life. She's got a story. She's been around. Right. It's, she's going to be fine if she goes to the highlight. Not just because Sophia's got a wrench in her purse. Exactly. But you know, Alma says that we just love being with each other. She said it was a particularly

lonely time for me and it was just nice to have someone to talk to. And after a while, he moved in. And I don't think I could have gotten through that time without Ben, which is just like, oh, I was like, you know, when it was over, it was over. But it was three years and we were better off for having known each other. And like, this is where Rose has learned her lesson because she wants to jump in and go. And then she was an ex-con in a drifter. And then like, the mom looks at her.

And she's like, but I bet he was a really nice ex-con in drifter. She calls it, I love that she calls her Rosie too. She says, thank you, Rosie. I think I will go to bed now. Good night. But we learned before she takes off that this is how she learned to gamble because Sophia's like, ah, was it this a bend that taught you how to gamble? And she said, yes,

he taught me how to play cards and he taught me how to carve a pistol out of soap. So, um, Blanc enters the kitchen and she immediately says, I don't want to talk about it. Yeah. Which of course is good for one of time. She says that her date with Dirk was a disaster. He was looking for a mother not a lover. It was humiliating. And but like, Rose is like, I think it's sweet and she goes, you would Betty Crocker. And this is my favorite joke of the show.

Oh, I'm sorry Rose. I'm just a little depressed for the first time in my life. I feel over 40. You know what that is, honey? Why? Because you're over 50. It's perfectly written and it's perfectly delivered by Queen B. It's also perfectly received. Like, I feel like, Blanc, it takes for a minute to be like, oh my god. You know what I mean? Yeah, don't I know it over 50 and over the hill. Dorothy's about to read her, right? She's like, because she's like, come on Blanc. Age is just a

state of mind and blanch its protesting. And I can't stand it. And Dorothy says, well, I can't either listen. You have your looks, your health, you have a couple bucks in the bank and friends who love you. That's a hell of a lot more than most people have. I won't sit here and listen to you feeling sorry for yourself and neither is Rose. And Rose, yeah. And then pause, pause, pause. She's right. All right, cheesecake. Don't go anywhere. As soon as we get back from the break, we are doing

our deep dive. And this week our deep dive is with the great Stan Zimmerman who wrote this very episode along with his writing partner, James Berg, as well as several other episodes in season one of The Golden Girls as a staff writer. Not only was he a staff writer on The Golden Girls, he did so much other stuff. He wrote The Lesbian Kiss episode of Roseanne. He wrote a pilot of a version

of The Golden Girls about gay men, crossover foxes, which has been turned into a play. He's got a new book out called The Girls from Golden to Gilmore stories all about the wonderful women I worked with. Dot dot dot and Roseanne. What could that possibly mean? What could that mean? We'll have to ask him. Yeah, we loved him. You're going to love him and we'll be right back. Hi, Stan Zimmerman. Hi. It is so funny having a Stan in the booth connected to The Golden Girls.

Because I have to remind myself that we're not talking to Stan's born back. Can I have hair on my head? Firstly, I want to say congratulations on your book. Thank you. The book is called The Girls from Golden to Gilmore. It just came out. And the subtitle, stories about all the wonderful women I've worked with. And Roseanne. Was she wonderful at the time? Well, back then, you know, she fought for the working people.

And that's what I loved about her on the show. Yeah. She really had the voice and television since Norman Lear. And Norman Lear just changed my life as a young kid to see that. Yeah. That you can marry Art and Advocacy, which I'm kind of doing now with all my theater work. Yeah. And still be popular. Yes. So I loved that about her. So we came up with this idea to write this show. And actually, we learned this from Rumaclanahan. You see the way

transitioned to Golden Girls? I'm kidding. So first, and the set of Golden Girls, Rumaclanahan comes towards us and I'm freaking out. It's like, so hard mod and he knows. Of course. And the pilot of Golden Girls. And she said, really challenge my character. You know, I'm an actor's actor. She was. I mean, she did lots of theater. And she did it up until, you know, the very end. Yeah. Really challenged the character. And that's when we went back to the

room, I writing part of Jim Bergen-I. And we thought, you know, Blanche's character is always about sex. What storyline could we give her that the answer to the problem would be to have sex, but she didn't want to. Which led to adult education. Yes, the sexual harassment episode. And it's obviously still an issue. Yeah. So we really took that to every job that we had. And we took it to Rosanne. We thought, you know, at that point, she was a liberal person. Yeah.

And really cared about the working people. That's what we came up with. What would happen if she kissed a woman in a lesbian bar. And then she thought she was really cool. And then she not cool with it and how the people react. And that's how that episode came about. ABC said, you cannot write it. We wrote it. She said, just write it. And then they say, we wouldn't like to film it. She said, we're filming it. And they said, we wouldn't air it. And to the credit of

her and Tom Arnold, they were married at the time. They said, we will buy back the show by time on HBO and aired if you don't. Wow. And they ABC did air it. And the next morning, you know what? The world continues. Go figure. Tell us how you came to be a writer in the Golden Girls. We had already been on one staff job. And then that show got quickly canceled after 13 episodes. I'm not even sure they aired all the episodes. But we had really cool guests like Don Cornelius

from Soul Train and Roy Orbison. Oh, wow. It was a horrible show. But anyway, then we did a few freelance episodes of different shows. We did one show called Fame. You might have. Oh, my gosh. Did I? And it starred this person. You probably never heard of since someone named Janet Jackson. Oh, my goodness. It was in the episode in Debbie Allen directed it. It was a Janet Jackson's actual first real music video. And then we got an episode of Valerie. Remember there was a

back of Valerie. I do remember that. It turned it. It turned it. It was a whole good. I mean, I remember that transition. I loved Valerie in the family. As we're turning the script in, they're going, I don't think Valerie's in this episode. No. We actually didn't get to write. We were just doing the story at the same time. We were asked to pitch on a new show at NBC that just got

picked up from pilot. At that point, you had to go in and watch the pilot and then you'd go home and you come up with a bunch of ideas and then come back in and pitch them, hoping to get they were going to give out two freelance episodes in the first 13 episodes. So we went home and pitched our little hearts out. Came in and we're pitching, pitching, pitching, and they're going, no, no, no, no, no, no. So we're like, okay, that's all I got. And we're dejectually walking to the door.

And something just came over me. I was not going to let this opportunity go by. And I flipped around in the door frame and I just like, I think I spurred it out something like, what if Rose's mother came to visit? And there was a pause. To me, it seemed like about two minutes, but it probably was like two seconds. Yeah. And they said, come back and sit down. And I was like, are we going to get yelled at? And then they just started all like riffing on it. And I'm like, we're going, I think we

got this episode. Yeah. And so we started coming up with the storyline and not treating our, you know, treating like a little girl and not like a woman. And then I don't think Jim and I spoke the whole time walking back to our cars in the garage. And then we looked at it. And just like, let out a scream on my god. We got an episode. But still it was not a hit. Did they tell you in the room that you, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're going to write this. Go home and do an outline. Do you think they

just loved seeing you on the fly? Like what you could do in the end of? Yeah, I mean, to see like, are they good writers? Yeah, that's a specific skill. They were not thinking staff at all. They just wanted to be like a good first draft. Yeah. So we went and did an outline and then they approved

us to go to script. And then we went to script. This is all in our homes. Yeah. And then because we went to a lot of tapings of this, like the first couple shows because we wanted to see like where they're they were going with character. And because we're just, we were taught that way to, you know, like, of course, I think it's like my theater acting background. I went to NYU to be an actor. It was like

studying a character and studying all of them. And I came in from acting and Jim was a journalism major at NYU. Yeah. So I came in from that way. So I would always act out the different parts. Like, you know, I can do blanche, which I won't do now. I'm just going to have a little vodka here. Anyway. So then we handed it in the first draft and they flipped out over it. And they, that's when they knew because it's really hard to get outside writers and especially baby writers to

be able to write existing characters. That's a whole different art throughout. Not just like writing a pilot, but to be able to mimic the sounds of those people and we were there weren't a lot of rewrites. No, not our script, which is unusual. Very unusual. And what is that like the rewrite process? Uh, well, if you're in the room, it can be terrifying because you have people ripping things that you put your heart and soul into right in front of you. And so I really had to learn.

It was, it was writing one-on-one classes and you have to learn to take your ego out of everything which is just in life I find in general. Just take your ego. Yes, I'm sure I also teach acting workshops and I talk about its show and business. And I look at it as a kept two hats. Oh, the show, you have to open your heart and be really vulnerable. That's a show. And then the business one's like a hard hat. I have a follow up that it's, I really am dying to ask you

in the rewriting. Do you ever play this game? Have you ever done this? The idea that you really want you save because you know they're going to give you a writing note so you don't even put it first? No, because what if they don't? I know. I think I just pitch everything that comes to your mind. It's very different when you're in a room, a writer's room. It can be terrifying. It was terrifying on golden girls because they were experienced writers and we were like young kids and there are

people that had done Benson and soap and like how did we get here and they were so smart? And then with Thomas, the non-writing producers sat in the room in this very unusual. Yeah, I think, but when we got there, they knew it was a hit. So the conventional wisdom was no one's going to watch a show about four old ladies in Miami. It was just like, hey, I'll put it on Saturday nights. I'm like no big deal. And then we were there watching it. And every, you know, now you can read ratings

like on your computers, but then they didn't even print them in the newspaper back then. So at each table read on Monday, the producers say, oh, we're number 15. And then I was going, yeah, we thought that's a lot. Yeah. And then it'd be like, we're eight and we're five and four and then one. And then like everyone's like, oh my god. And so to be there, it's to see it. And then to see going to the

tapings of the shows, at the beginning, people didn't know the characters. So there would be laughing. And I think you know what's called the laugh spread. What is it? If the laugh spread is the length of the laughs from the audience. And people always think that, oh, it's all candid. There's real people up there. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a play. That's why a lot of people, a lot of theater actors love

doing that because the format's very similar. Yeah. And if the audience is a laugh, the writers like run on on the floor and we pitch out the jokes and that part, I don't love to be quite honest. Because you have to really be able to be very fast with your mind. And so the idea for the episode was it started with Rose's mom comes to visit. Yeah. And then you write it. But then the episode becomes. Blanchly and the other man. So that was our B story. Yeah. Is it the B story in the

episode or is that did it switch to becoming the A story? It was kind of a co I think. Yeah. And I think they liked the idea of calling it that because it was a sexier title. Yeah. And come on. Right. Right. Do it with the younger man. Those arms. Yeah. Watching that. Rose's mother going, I don't know. Isn't that a woman from guns. She right now. She was. She was hot. Well, there were some issues. Oh, no. What were the issues? Tell us the issue. I know you two don't like to gossip.

Oh, no. We don't. We hate to gossip. Don't give us the tea. Don't give us the tea. Can we go right to that part? Tell us the issue. She had a problem with memorization. I mean, a little worse than a style. So that last scene, you know, before the, you know, the pretzels and all that. Yeah. You know, every minute news. I was watching you guys. I think everything out of the refrigerator moved it around my guy. All the food. I did. I didn't even watch that. And then nobody

ever eats anything. I said to Patrick, that's because continuity is too hard. He's like, why isn't standing the sandwich? It's because to keep remaking that sandwich for every day. That's a back class money. Wait. So that mean that was the big issue. Is that she was having a hard time memory in the last year? Yeah. You know, everyone knows the story that Estelle started for getting her lines a lot. Yeah. But we didn't know it was dementia then, especially in the first

season. So we would just hear in the right classroom, oh, she's going out to parties every night. Estelle, getty. She did. She was, well, she was going to AIDS benefits. Yeah. And she was being invited to Hollywood parties. She was like, she was like this working actress out, you know, or Lena Queen's or something or the family she'd make dinner. Yeah. And then she'd run downtown and do shows like a bra. Yeah. Lamama for free. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've talked to her sons

because I would like to do a one woman show about Estelle. Oh, that would be fascinating. Are you like to do it? I'm a valedict. I love to have things like I'm just a tall drink. I'm Dorothy Sporneck. What was the inspiration for then for the Blanche storyline in that episode? I just want to see a hot guy on stage. Yeah. We were looking for something for Blanche and and the stories, it's really great when you had kind of an A-story and B-story. Kind of

dub tail. Yeah. You know, and treating like a girl like a mother and the Blanche was treated, you know, like his mom. So that's the best. They don't always get to collide like that. Yeah. So they wanted to call that again because in the TV guide, remember TV guys? My course. I still have all the fall pre-B1. Oh. And every freaking play bill I've ever seen. Like what is wrong with me? I know. It's we're from a different time. I guess. You know.

Yeah. Can I ask you something just because we're on Blanche? Yes. Your discovery about an end of a word. Oh. Yes. You think I'm going to ask you. The first person that's asking that. Oh, like because I'm obsessed with this book. Yeah. About the ERs that you discovered that that was a really funny sound for Ruma Client. I'm a Southern person. On a Southern person. So I was like dick and you know, just words like it. Or any AR. Okay. The IR. All of those words.

It's again, when you're as opposed to just writing like movie scripts when you write TV to really be able to listen to the sounds that people make of what to me, what would be funny. And also the cadence. Are they the long senses? Are they short senses? So that was just something we discovered in the room. And so we're just like we were so desperate to be funny. And we didn't think we were funny writers. Well, it still sound funny out of her voice. So that's how we started coming

out. But what a collaboration. Isn't that interesting? Yes. But now you go back and you see my episodes a lot of ERs. But I'm cheap that way. So that's great. Well, not that way. But that way too. That's my job. Now I just use the iterations. I think they're funny. Hence the book. Girls going out of the juice. That's consonants. Assonants is vowels. What's the metaphor? Well, what do you find? And like when you read scripts? Well, I'm going to say this to the writer since he's asking me.

But we talk about comedy being in threes and fives and how many times that's used in these scripts to great effect and how great the actors deliver it. But I'd also like to say not only do I love the words that writers such as yourself write, I love the negative space. I love what's happening in and out of the scene, who they are as characters and the pauses and those things and painting in between the lines. You know, so never taking away from the words, letting them say them as written

but coloring in between and shading. So that's something I look for in a script. And that's why you're so brilliant. Oh, thank you. You can do that. And I love when actors can take our words, but they develop. Like Nicole Sullivan, who is in our reader ox and she's from Matt TV. She does that. I felt like she just puts like flowers on. She just covers it with the stuff that I didn't even see or feel when. So when you can have a writer and actor connect that that's pure gold.

You know, some people just don't know how to do that. The success of the episode led to you and Jim getting offered staff writer positions, right? Yes. So the first draft they were like, get these guys on staff. They had had another woman writing a freelance episode and that was but with Thomas's friend. Or as a page one rewrite. And so the staff was like, we got these guys. Let's bring them on. We were never really welcomed by with Thomas. And I think because, you know, I'm sure you probably

have never experienced a straight white male's ego. Anyway, they like have they have the director shares with the names on it. Yeah. We got them. It was like duck duck goose and we're like, where's our chairs? And they never even spent, you know, the $75. I would have just like your chair set on carpet back. Exit that way. Well, I was kind of obsessed with some. You

mentioned in the book some of the story ideas that you pitched that season. That didn't work. Well, or that they did make rose joints and EST type group after meeting you know what is so young. Isn't it like one of those spiritual motivational Scientology kind of thing? But not as weird. But it was going to be the idea of like rose joining a cult. Is that right? Yes, it was a cult dish. But it was a spiritual call. Perfect. She probably would have been. She's so naive. I know. She

would have followed them anywhere. Yeah. So that was a big thing back in that those days that you would do that and you weren't allowed to go to the bathroom or something. I mean, those go to a summer theater camp they were all asked people. Oh, wow. I was like 13-year-olds and I was like, I can't you like what you saying? So when we're in a writer's room, the great thing about having

a writing partner is I don't love sitting in the writer's room. So I let my writing partner do the day-to-day with the other writers and I'll take two or three people out and I'll be the one to like break stories which mean I come up with new stories and structure it or go to casting or editing. So I'm always jumping up and down in the chair. So I'm a big multitasker. Yeah. Someone said to me the other day that they said it's a gay person's brain. Huh. Have you heard of

this? No. No. What? They've got to Google it. That our brains are somehow good for multitasking. Huh. And I'm like, okay. Then my brain is broken. I can do one thing at a time. Maybe not really gay. I think I could be not. I just had this conversation today too that women are usually very good at multitasking. Yes. Women and gay men. So, it's very nice. Being of things women are good at. I'm guessing it was her facial expressions but you said in the book that B. Arthur didn't necessarily

need a joke to get a laugh. But nobody knew that. So we invented that. You did. Yeah. So we invented, we call shooting a look. So they sent Jim and I off to our little rooms and Chris Lloyd who was not even on staff, you know, from modern families. Yeah. Yeah. They wanted creators. His father's a famous comedy writer. So he, I guess, was the first NEPO baby ever when we started the first. But so they just had him sitting around watching all of us. So they would throw him in our room. He

would sit on the couch and watch us be neurotic. Like, oh my god, are we going to keep our job and all that stuff. So they would send us off and say come back with five jokes for Dorothy at the end of the scene, which is called the blow. I don't know why. Back in those days. You know, Dorothy's rage and some of these episodes, the blow of the situation. Can we make a little more sense? Is it too late to rename our podcast the blow? That's right. You're subtitled. So we're coming

with, you know, word jokes. And then I said, but whatever the line was like a rose thing, it's so stupid. Why? It's B. Arthur. Yeah. She just like, give a look. Shoot. And so we wrote shoot a look. I don't even know why she would have felt like her gaze was almost like shot at someone. And you knew what that meant. And we went in there. I had to act it because I did have my, you know, in what you'd agree. Of course. So Jim was like, push me up

and I'd have to act in all of the lines in front of a group of heavyweight writers. They all laughed. We tried it out. And of course, like everyone screamed. And it became a thing. All she had to do. That's how the laugh spread kept growing because the audience would come in now knowing the characters. Yeah. And then the minute Rose said something stupid, the cameras would go on a single of B. Arthur,

laughter, laughter, laughter. I swear. Yeah. I cut it. Yeah. It was just the actress had to hold a hold in a sitcom. Yeah. That's unheard of. Yeah. It's interesting. Like in watching these episodes, we talked about it a lot. We're like the laughter went on for 10 seconds. Yeah. And you feel, you feel it. We covered something today where B. Arthur gives no less than five takes. Yes. Just looks, you know, and we said, just like one, two, three, she turns, she looks back.

She turns again. She looks back. Yeah. It would have took time. It was so funny. There's that you know that can do that. I mean, you never, you don't see it anywhere else. You know, the way it's why like TikTok and Instagram is full of B. Arthur doing it. Because nobody else can do it. Yeah. But that's also, that's an example to what I mean between the lines, but you also wrote that shoot the look. We created her. Yeah. And then let her do

her thing with that. And so did save us a lot of time. We wouldn't have to think of a word joke. And it just became a thing and running, running jokes. But we were in the room when we're flipping through a phone book looking for cities for, were rose and was like, say no up. Yeah. Like to have been there, not knowing it would become a whole thing. Wow. Yeah. You were there. The moment they decided roses from St. Olaf. Yeah. Wow. I feel like God. I feel like when they turn the

earth on the earth. Well, I mean, to like invent the B. Arthur like sass look or whatever we're calling it. Like that's amazing. And what do I get for what do you get for? You get us. I got. And that's going to go. There you go. I'll be I'll be holding this. One of the things that was shocking to read was that you and your writing partner Jim felt like you had to stay closeted on the set. Will you talk about that and what Estelle said to you on the day one? Yeah. So most people are

pretty shocked. It's shocking. That's such a progressive show. Like why would you have to be in the closet? But you have to, you know, this is where you get dissolving. Go back in time. Yeah. It was a different time. And our representatives said, you know, don't come out of the closet on the show. And so we kept our mouth shut. We wanted to keep the job so badly. And we just got this

vibe not to bring it up. So we would bring women to events. Really. Yeah. Yeah. And then in the writers room, you know, they would talk about like everyone would just say, what did you do this week? Yeah. Everyone got to tell their stories. And I'd be like, I think, well, I went to studio. I wanted to dance. It's a place in West Hollywood. I couldn't say that. And then I remember Jim and I, because we were so poor, then we were sharing a house bottom of a house. I said, oh,

we went to this garage sale in Silver Lake. And I bought all these really cool vintage sweaters. And they went the room like just like stopped talking. And they said, you know, that was, because Silver Lake was an area where gay men live that you bought it because someone died of AIDS and they were selling and stuff. You can't wear that. You have to go home and burn it. Wow. Yeah. So I went home and I did put it in like two garbage bags. And threw it away. I didn't burn it.

Yeah. So that was happening in the room. So you're not going to say, oh, you know, I wouldn't date with a guy if they, you know, we were being told that. I gotta tell you, like, that's going to break some hearts. Like that's going to, you know what I mean? Like, and we have to, like you're saying, remember the time because it's, I don't know the level of interaction you had with the four women or whatever, but you would think, and your a style story is so great because

you would at least think that they would be championing you on that front. We weren't just hanging out with them. We were in the writers room. And then the first time we went down on the set, it still came over. You know, she's like four foot whatever. Yeah. And she goes, sknear. And she goes, follow me. And I looked at Jimmy. I guess we got to follow her. She's the star ones show. So she's like, titch around the back of the set. And we're back there. And she

goes, your secret safe with me. You're one of us. Yeah. And so I assume Jewish. And I think I said that to him. She goes, no, gay. And she wasn't gay, but she was an ally. Yes. From torso to energy. So I always wonder, like, did she tell B. Arthur? Because she knew B. Arthur had a lot of gay friends and was so supportive of gay people. Yeah. She supports this house in New York for covenant house. Yes. Yes. And she talks about this. Lots of videos online. You can find where she

talks about, you know, her support for the gay community. So yeah. And Estelle would go to, she was one of the first Hollywood actors that would go to these benefits. Yeah. And because back then, like, there would be no male actors that would go because that would be career death. And a lot of women didn't go. And I talking to her sons when I was trying to do this one woman show about her, they would say that she would go to the hospitals here when like cast members would get sick and,

you know, have to go leave the show. Yeah. From Torch from Trilogy. And she'd bring them chicken soup. And then some of the cast members had to tell her like, now that's not going to make them better. That, you know, she just thought it was like a regular illness. Yeah. And I mean, she was so lovely and such a cool person. I feel so lucky that I just remember like sitting in my desk in my house and she'd call me and like, give me, this was after I was off the show and just, wow.

And give me advice on career. Like, who are you dating? What are you doing? And you know, I mean, she was just like a really sweet Jewish mother. And I wish she had lived longer. And when you weren't on the show, you weren't back for season two. No, we did not ask us back. So. Can you talk about that here? Are you okay? She needs more Colin Sprang. If it's 40 years, but you know what, we are not over it. Leave it to you to bring it up. It was very upsetting at the time because

they kept giving us scripts to do. So we got nominated for a writer's Guild of Wars. So we were obviously doing something right. Correct. And it was working and people were laughing and responding and the writers all liked us. And then and Susan Harris at the Rat Party for season one said, we'll see you in September. So that was as good as gold to me. Yeah. Though she was never in the room because she had Epstein bar. Yeah. Disease. But her husband and producing partner with Thomas

did not want us back. And so they did not pick up our option. And that was devastating. I could devastate just devastate. What was it? It really hurt. You know, because everyone in town knew we were on the show and then they asked why and but, you know, as I've learned from a long career, you know, the you lose jobs shows good canceled. You got to like roll with it and reinvent yourself sometimes. And that's how I like, you know, I've seen the ups and downs, you know, sitcoms are

dead. It comes our back. Yeah. And in between, you know, we started writing movies. They were like, we did the Brady bunch movies. And then we started doing writing musicals. We got asked to rewrite the Annie movie for Neil and Craig's and in Marin. And that's with, you know, a few people like Kathy Bates and you're just a Christian channel with Victor Garber and I'll work down. You're fine. Yeah, I

were fine. Yeah. But did you think there was homophobia involved in you're not being asked of course? We are breaking hearts on Golden Girls in Die this week. Oh my god. But it was, but we didn't learn any of this. So then we were at Paramount writing the Brady bunch movies and they locked us in a closet. Fun, it'll need a lot of no closet and just go fix these scenes. And when the closet and there were these windows and we're just looking out for air or just out of the studio and

walked by were Nathan, Panera Nathan. They were big writers on the Golden Girls. And we're like, oh my god, we haven't seen them since the Golden Girls. And like, we have an office here. And, you know, when you take a break, I'm say hello. So we ran over there and we got to hear all these stories that we had never heard. They ended up producing our first pilot and they said, yeah, we really fought for you guys this day and when it was really ridiculous that why you weren't back.

But, you know, that's just the luck of the draw. But then when we would do work in pilots with them and they'd be like a beautiful woman walk by and they would go, nothing, you feel nothing. No. And then when like a hot guy would walk by we said that really nothing. No, nothing. So it's funny how that started to change and then we against the advice of our agents, we came out professionally in a newspaper in LA. And what year?

Oh honey, I don't know years. Don't know numbers. 80s or 90s. Okay. So not like. I was after Golden Girls. So it must have been late 80s. Or early 90s. Yeah. Yeah. I can find out for you. No, no, I just know a comment later. Like 20 years later or soon thereafter. It was just hard to be in the closet. I mean, like everyone in town knew. But it was so freeing to just, you know, have our picture. Yeah. We could be ourselves. And then if flip to, you know, when we got in Rosanna,

I think we got on because they wanted gay voices. Yeah. And then so Tom Ardell was running around the offices, yelling, where am I gay guys? I think that would be a nice lawsuit. Yeah. Yeah. Have a beautiful penthouse in New York City. You mentioned silver lake and sadly, that's sad story. But in terms of silver, tell us everything about silver foxes, please. Oh my god. I want the phone call from Susan Harris. Yes. Don't you? Of course. Patrick. I know. Yes. Yes.

Shockingly. No one has asked me about that either. Well, really? Yes. Logo called us in for a meeting. We didn't know why. And we're like, okay. And they said we're going to do our first scripted sitcom for Scripted Show. The only did reality shows are RuPaul. Yeah. Drag Race. And they said, we've scoured the town and we picked our writers and it's you two. And we're thinking we're like being on punters in the other

show. Like we're looking up for cameras. And they said we want to do a gay man's golden girls. And we're like, oh, that's why you asked us. And we were like, yes, we'll figure it out. Then we were watching for research, this documentary called Jen Silent. And it was about a homophobia in assisted living places. Oh, I mean, nothing about. Yeah. Imagine like you finally come out of the closet and then as you get older, you have to go back in the closet. Yes.

Because a lot of these places are run by my mom's a lesbian. She's in a nursing home and she has 15 girlfriends. Like it's somehow my mom ended up in the world's most progressive nursing club there. That is hot. She'd have to get to 56 to be the real slut like this. Good for her. I love that. So we wrote it. And then, you know, as we do in theater, we have stage readings, which you don't do in television. And I thought, I'm going to have a reading in my

living room. And I called called George the K and God bless them the late Leslie Jordan. Did know them at all. And I said, you know, I threw my credits out. Why not? And I said, here's this show we want to do. He hadn't written the script yet, even. They said, what day, what time? And they appeared in my living room with Melissa Peterman and Sherri O'Terry and Bruce Philanche and a great group of people. And the network was like, how did you get these people?

You're like, I just know everybody. That's cool. I'm standing there. Yeah, just cold. And I've had Marla Gibbs in my living room in Barbara Bain. Wow. I mean, I've had insane people there. And I had my line producer from another show there to explain to the network here. So how you could do it. Reading went great. And the network said we can't afford to make this show. Like, okay, logo. So we said to our agents get it out to the any network or streaming or cable anywhere. Not one

company would open the script to read it because the demos were old people. And it was an LGBTQ push. I kid you not. I know. And sadly, it doesn't even surprise me. Yeah. And they would give reasons like, well, it doesn't have broad appeal. I know what that means. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. So I was doing press for a web series with Sandra Bernhardt and Mindy Sterling in it. And I started talking about it. And then the story blew up and I posted the picture of the reading,

people in the reading. And then my good friend Michael Yuri, we were talking about it and like, why don't you write it as a play? And so we turned it into a play. And it's one of the four plays that I have produced and a license and published by TRW plays. Wow. And we just had the world premiere, last spring in Dallas with uptown players. And Michael directed it. And Michael directed it. Yeah. And we asked him to direct it. And we sold out before the show opened. And I'm going

to the Midwest premiere in Columbus, Ohio in September six. It opens. Wow. I will be there in person. And with evolution theater company, which is an LBGTQ plus theater company. So we know I can see it being done in Pete Town and Charlottesdale and Palm Springs. It has to be done in said in Palm Springs. Do you have like a single favorite memory from your time in the Golden Girls? I would just say a general thing would, I'm so glad. And I was so super young. But did I took the time

to really appreciate when I was there standing there on the floor of the set. And looking to my left and seeing those four amazing women. Yeah. And then looking to the right and seeing the studio audience laughing at lines. I said and looking at those people saying those lines. And really taking the moment saying, I am so lucky and blessed to be here. I don't know how or why. But thank God. And I want to just use that for good. And it can so easily just like run through things in

your life. Yeah. Really. You're present. Take the present moment. Yeah. That's really important. I'm so glad to hear you say that. Because even in your telling it, I can see it from your eyes. And like to have the presence of mind to really take in that moment and be able to visualize it like forever and ever. That's yeah. Because it's so easy. You can go, oh, all that fucked up stuff back there. Or like, what if the job ends? You know, some people they get a pilot deal. And I call

them to congratulate them. Oh, we'll never gonna go. Oh, wait, you just sold it and you're already going to the negative. So I think that's an any business. Just really appreciate where you are. I feel so lucky that I'm sitting here with you two towns of people. Oh my gosh. And it's so super cool. And I love what you're doing and that you're keeping just the love of golden girls alive. And I've been feel so lucky. All the wonderful people I've met through it and people come up to me.

Like if you get recognized as an actor, no one knows writers who I am. So people always say, do you mind if I tell you a story about how my grandmother and I'm like, please, like for writer to hear that that your words and still, I mean, you know, you're so lucky when you get one show that is popular. But to have I've been lucky, I've got three shows that still today are affecting people. I mean, that's kind of insane. What stands out in your book is called The Girls from Golden

to Gilmore stories about all the wonderful women I've worked with and Roseanne. Yeah. So that'll be a whole other hour. And they can get it anywhere, right? Anywhere you want Amazon. It's at the drama book shop. Yes. I did a wonderful book signing thing. Merced the job with Noker. Was the moderator and we just had a wonderful time this past April and they have all my place there as well. You are magic. I love you. Thank you for the tea. Next time you're back, I'm going to ask

even more specific questions to get even more tea. Can't wait. Thank you, Stanton. Do you have anything else, John? Just that I love you. Love you back. Thank you from being a fan. Oh, I feel so honored. It wasn't that great. It was so great. It was really fun having somebody from the actual Golden Girls world in our studio with us. It's just like from its birth. I know. It was a reception. And I'm telling you like the homophobia. That was shocking.

Yeah. I know. You would have to keep it quiet. I love a little of the sale getting being like your secret save with me. You're one of us. I know. And I love that is so getting considered yourself one of the guys. You know what I mean? Speaking of gays, cheesecakes, join our Facebook group. It is full of all kinds. The LBBQs. You can make a transition out of nothing. Thank you. Thank you. It is my great gift.

It's the Golden Girls and Deep Dive podcast discussion group on the Facebook. And you know, we're up to almost 2,000 members. People are just becoming friends. They're sharing their Golden Girls memes. They're literally tracking down the birthplace of a still getting the little inspector gadgets in there. We give an assignment and they are honest. I know. Oh my gosh. I know. And you know, I'm going to jump in. Patrick usually says this.

I just want you all to know how much I and we appreciate all of those iTunes reviews. Thank you so so much. Keep them coming. It really helps us. It really helps people find us. Yeah. The review part is the most important part. So giving us the stars is really sweet. But if you could click on the thing that says, write a review and then just write a few, it could be four words about like Jennifer is sexy. That's all it has to be. It could be just that. In fact, if you would all write that,

that would be right. Jennifer is sexy and then we will know you heard this. But it really means a lot and I read them and it makes me happy. It's just so sweet and kind. But it really does help other people find us. I might have to break my rule and go read them because you're selling me on them so much. They're really so nice. That's nice. Cheezies. And you know what? If you have a suggestion or something you want to share or something

you want to tell us, write us. We have an email address. It's a brand new thing. I know. People have email addresses now. Anyway, ours is info at goldengirlsdeepdive.com. Well, that's a good place for you to send us what your suggestions are for the deep dives. Because we have got them coming out of our ears. We're not going to run out of them. But if you have ideas, we want to know what you want us to do. Yes, Steve monitors everything and so he definitely goes through it. It will be read.

We love you Cheezies. I love you, Mother Cheesecake. I love you, Papa Cheesecake. Thank you so much for listening to our shenanigans. Thank you all. We love you, Papa. We love you. We'll see you next time. Bye.